From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2009 #120 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, May 4 2009 Volume 2009 : Number 120 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Will you take me as I am ["Marion Leffler" ] Fwd: Will you take me as I am [gerard mclaughlin ] Was AM. Idol now Joni Content ["Cassy" ] Re:Covers 112 - May Day! [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re:Covers 112 - May Day! ["anon anon " ] Re: Covers 112 - May Day! [FMYFL@aol.com] "Will You Take Me As I Am" and "Girls Like Us" [T Peckham ] Re: Will you take me as I am [Scott Price ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:28:54 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: Will you take me as I am Read Michelle Mercer's book over the weekend. I find it to be intelligent, thoughtful and respectful, a much better account than Sheila Weller's. There is very little gossipy stuff. I find it interesting though sometimes a little far fetched how Michelle Mercer connects Joni's way of writing to literature and landscapes. There is also a lot on chords and music but unfortunately those passages pass me by since I know next to nothing about composing music. Like Sheila Weller, Michelle Mercer also writes quite a bit about Joni's relationships. Most of her sources are Joni quotes from interviews. There is one part that is disturbing to me, the passage about Leonard Cohen. I do hold both Leonard and Joni in very high esteem, their music has accompanied me through all my ups and downs. So it bothers me to find out that Joni is talking about Leonard in a derrogative way. She calls him a boudoir poet and accuses him of having stolen lines from Camus. Leonard on his part does not talk about Joni in negative ways. If I still had any, I would lose my illusions now:-) From the day I joined the jmdl I have been ambiguous about learning more about Joni. I used to be alone with her voice, her lyrics and her music and I was free to interpret it as I pleased. I had never read an interview of her's, I had hardly seen any pictures and I had watched her on tv only once. Joni the person was a complete stranger to me, and through so many years I never felt curious about who she was. In fact, everything I learned about her I learned from WOHAM and the jmdl. - Listening to her songs now has become more complicated - there is Joni's life, jmdl interpretations, biographers' interpretations and my own experiences all begging to be considered in one listening. In the words of Greta Garbo - I want to be alone! At least that's what I feel right now but it will pass like the summer which by the way is just arriving to Sweden on lilac sprays. Yes, life is complicated and wonderful! Have a happy weekend, Marion ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 16:19:41 +0100 From: gerard mclaughlin Subject: Fwd: Will you take me as I am - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Marion Leffler Date: Sun, May 3, 2009 at 3:28 PM Subject: Will you take me as I am To: joni@smoe.org Read Michelle Mercer's book over the weekend. I find it to be intelligent, thoughtful and respectful, a much better account than Sheila Weller's. There is very little gossipy stuff. I find it interesting though sometimes a little far fetched how Michelle Mercer connects Joni's way of writing to literature and landscapes. There is also a lot on chords and music but unfortunately those passages pass me by since I know next to nothing about composing music. Like Sheila Weller, Michelle Mercer also writes quite a bit about Joni's relationships. Most of her sources are Joni quotes from interviews. There is one part that is disturbing to me, the passage about Leonard Cohen. I do hold both Leonard and Joni in very high esteem, their music has accompanied me through all my ups and downs. So it bothers me to find out that Joni is talking about Leonard in a derrogative way. She calls him a boudoir poet and accuses him of having stolen lines from Camus. Leonard on his part does not talk about Joni in negative ways. If I still had any, I would lose my illusions now:-) From the day I joined the jmdl I have been ambiguous about learning more about Joni. I used to be alone with her voice, her lyrics and her music and I was free to interpret it as I pleased. I had never read an interview of her's, I had hardly seen any pictures and I had watched her on tv only once. Joni the person was a complete stranger to me, and through so many years I never felt curious about who she was. In fact, everything I learned about her I learned from WOHAM and the jmdl. - Listening to her songs now has become more complicated - there is Joni's life, jmdl interpretations, biographers' interpretations and my own experiences all begging to be considered in one listening. In the words of Greta Garbo - I want to be alone! At least that's what I feel right now but it will pass like the summer which by the way is just arriving to Sweden on lilac sprays. Yes, life is complicated and wonderful! Have a happy weekend, Marion ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 11:10:00 -0700 From: "Cassy" Subject: Was AM. Idol now Joni Content From: Jimmy wrote to Robbie <<< This comes from someone who is an "80's junkie"? I think it's you who loves DED. LOL >>> That would be ME, Jimmy. Well, it might be that Robbie loves it too but "Dog Eat Dog" is, as I've written before, one of my personal favorites. I felt Joni had a lot of fun with new "toys" on that L.P. Joni seems not only to have kept up with technology as her career progressed but was way ahead of the pack in doing American Standards with orchestration. Anyway. I never pass up an opportunity to defend DED. Warmly, Cassy NP: Joni - Turbulent Indigo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 07:36:46 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re:Covers 112 - May Day! Thanks Bob for another great volume. I was most interested in hearing the cover of The Silky Veils of Ardor. Not many covers around of that song. I still prefer Tierry Antoine's cover. Apart from his thick accent, his guitar playing is superb. Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 22:52:23 +0000 From: "anon anon " Subject: Re:Covers 112 - May Day! accents are wonderful...variety is the spice of life... - -----Original Message----- Date: Sunday, May 03, 2009 5:49:28 pm To: joni@smoe.org From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re:Covers 112 - May Day! Thanks Bob for another great volume. I was most interested in hearing the cover of The Silky Veils of Ardor. Not many covers around of that song. I still prefer Tierry Antoine's cover. Apart from his thick accent, his guitar playing is superb. Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 19:10:41 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Covers 112 - May Day! Hi Mark, I don't think it was Silvanus Slughter's thick accent that made me dislike his cover. His voice was just AWFUL. Now Vigdis Wisur cover of BSN was absolutely beautiful. I may get sick of so many BSN covers, but she has the voice of an angel. Jimmy In a message dated 5/3/2009 5:48:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mark-leon@iinet.net.au writes: > Thanks Bob for another great volume. I was most interested in hearing > the cover of The Silky Veils of Ardor. Not many covers around of that > song. I still prefer Tierry Antoine's cover. Apart from his thick > accent, his guitar playing is superb. > > Mark in Sydney > ************** The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222376998x1201454298/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62& bcd=May5309AvgfooterNO62) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 00:52:14 -0500 From: T Peckham Subject: "Will You Take Me As I Am" and "Girls Like Us" Dear JoniListers, There has been a bit of discussion about Michelle Mercer's *Will You Take Me As I Am* wherein some comparisons with Sheila Weller's book have been made, including a dismissal (by some) of *Girls Like Us* as being mostly "gossip." It's also been suggested that Mercer's book is somehow more thoughtful and respectful of Joni than Weller's. It's been bugging me, so I decided to write about it, and I welcome all comments, yay or nay. The "gossipy" stuff in *Girls*---and it would be helpful if people would name specific examples of what they consider to be gossip---all comes from Joni's friends, many members of her inner circle, people she has worked with, and yes, many of her boyfriends. Weller also quotes from interviews Joni has given over the years. Did she speak with Joni (she *did* try to) and get her approval? No. Does that in any way prove that Weller's meticulous research and commitment to accuracy are lacking? No. Imagine if the only legitimate biographies published were those in which the subject participated with the author(s): I guess we wouldn't know much about, say, Lincoln, or the Bronte sisters, or Van Gogh. Please don't think I'm making a personal attack on anyone, and, to overstate the obvious, everyone is entitled to their opinions. I simply want to point out the fact that Sheila Weller did speak directly to many of Joni's close friends and their quotes are *on the record*; very little is attributed to anonymous sources. These are people who, in varying degrees, were part of Joni's life, who she may have written songs about, and who have a right to tell their stories from their points of view. There is no second- or third-hand gossip here; there are no "made-up" quotes. Weller is an award-winning *journalist*. *Girls Like Us* has been added to the Women's Studies curricula of dozens of major colleges and universities. While I find Mercer's book intelligent, I certainly don't think it's any more so than Weller's. Weller covers so much more ground---intertwining the lives of two other accomplished women---and weaves in so much social history as she, too, lived it---but without the personal interjections I find so annoying in *Will You Take Me As I Am*. (Of course, the two authors set out to write two very different books--I'm not criticizing Mercer's much narrower focus--I just don't think she fulfilled it very well.) As for Mercer's book being "thoughtful"---well, sure. But again, I was interested in her thoughtful interpretation of Joni's music and influences and in the much touted conversations she shared with Joni. While there were some interesting new revelations, there was nothing in the analysis---ok, except that part about St. Augustine---that I hadn't already mused about myself. I was similarly unimpressed with the radio and print interviews Mercer has done. I too found her connection between the prairie landscape and Joni's writing to be a stretch, at best. I really don't care that Mercer took a train across country to investigate her thesis, and I'm not interested in her descriptions of how she stood up to Joni's intellectual fierceness. Sheila Weller's interviews, on the other hand, are full of her excitement and enthusiasm for her subjects as well as her voluminous knowledge of their lives and work. Her readings/Q & A sessions have drawn many friends and associates of Carole, Carly, and Joni, including the late John Guerin's sister and Joni's archivist and friend Joel Bernstein, with whom she graciously shared the podium on one occasion. Respectful? Of whom? Is Mercer being respectful of Joni in describing her as yelling and screaming and being verbally abusive to her? (Guess what? *It's not about you*, Michelle. But I *would* really like to know the context of the "humor can be a form of enlightenment" comment. Huh?!?) It's definitely *not* respectful to launch gratuitous attacks on other singer-songwriters in service of---what? Mercer's writing on Carly Simon suggests that her familiarity with Simon's work began and ended with "You're So Vain." As for Dan Fogelberg . . . again I say, huh?? I also find it telling that Mercer repeatedly brings up Weller's take on the impact of the adoption on Joni's creativity, that it has been used "as a convenient explanation for more complex existential angst." Well, maybe. Certainly there is very little about Joni Mitchell that *isn't* complex. But I don't see how one can read Weller's sensitive (and dead-on, if blog and review comments by other Canadian birth mothers can be given credence) descriptions of that experience in that era and think it's *simple*. Here, as in other instances, I think more is revealed about Ms. Mercer's relative youth and (perhaps) lack of life experience than about Ms. Mitchell. Or maybe I'm just getting cranky in my relative old age. I've been wondering why there has been so little discussion on the list of Mercer's book, especially given the fact that at least a few here got advance copies. I understand that many likely just haven't read it yet. But I also wonder if some might be following the old adage "If you have nothing good to say, don't say anything." That would be perfectly reasonable given Mercer's connection to the website and the JMDL. What I find unreasonable are the (still) repeated opinions that Weller's book is too gossipy, the implication being that it was somehow disrespectful of Joni, or that it wasn't thoroughly researched and documented. (BTW, the paperback edition of *Girls Like Us* is out, and every single error---such as the mileage between cities in Canada---that Ms. Weller was made aware of has been corrected and/or updated.) I suspect that some discussion is taking place off-list, which is cool. I just wish some of it would take place on the list---that's the point of it, right? But if anyone wants to email me offlist, pls. do. I don't bite--really. ;-) T - -- Some things in life it just gets too late to learn . . . --Bob Dylan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 23:55:14 -0600 From: Robert Procyk Subject: Re: Was AM. Idol now Joni Content ooooh yes, DED is beautiful - I will defend it to my dying day! And old Hair Helmut Adam should not be spoken of in the same breath as DED.... Oh Jimmy, when will you learn? Ah, but, as the song goes, "no blame for what we can and cannot feel" Happy Monday All Y'all, Rob - ----- Original Message ----- From: Cassy Date: Sunday, May 3, 2009 12:10 pm Subject: Was AM. Idol now Joni Content > From: > > Jimmy wrote to Robbie > > <<< This comes from someone who is an "80's junkie"? I think > it's you who > loves DED. LOL >>> > > That would be ME, Jimmy. Well, it might be that Robbie loves it > too but > "Dog Eat Dog" is, as I've written before, one of my personal > favorites. I > felt Joni had a lot of fun with new "toys" on that L.P. Joni > seems not only > to have kept up with technology as her career progressed but was > way ahead > of the pack in doing American Standards with orchestration. > > Anyway. I never pass up an opportunity to defend DED. > > Warmly, > Cassy > > NP: Joni - Turbulent Indigo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 23:20:47 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Will you take me as I am At 07:28 AM 5/3/2009, Marion Leffler wrote: >I have been ambiguous about learning more about Joni. For years, decades even, I couldn't locate sources of information about Joni aside from a rare magazine article or brief snippet. That was one of the best things about discovering the JMDL, connecting with others who knew or wanted to know more about her. Joni herself said one of the reasons for such transparency in her craft (especially around the Blue era) was so that those who followed her music would know who they were following. The search for more information about Joni Mitchell has, admittedly, led to a few tidbits that make me cringe, but overall, it reinforces that everyone is human, nobody is perfect; the insights gleaned have only added to my enjoyment and understanding of the art and artist. Scott ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2009 #120 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe