From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2009 #106 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, April 18 2009 Volume 2009 : Number 106 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Susan Boyle [Anne Sandstrom ] Fwd: Susan Boyle [gerard mclaughlin ] Re: Susan Boyle [Gerald Notaro ] Re: Susan Boyle [Gerald Notaro ] Re: Fwd: Susan Boyle [Catherine McKay ] Re: Fwd: Susan Boyle [gerard mclaughlin ] Re: Susan Boyle [Kate Johnson ] Re: Susan Boyle [Gerald Notaro ] Re: Susan Boyle [gerard mclaughlin ] Re: Susan Boyle [Em ] JoniFest Setlists? ["Cassy" ] Re: JoniFest Setlists? [Kate Johnson ] Re: JoniFest Setlists? ["Cassy" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:13:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Anne Sandstrom Subject: Susan Boyle Oops. I sent this just to Bob M by mistake... meant for all... On Apr 16, 2009, anne@sandstrom.com wrote: I believe Susan Boyle may have the most amazing female singing voice since Jenny Lind. (Hoping, of course, that there was minimal sound engineering/enhancement in her performance.) For me, it's not about what she looks like at all. It's that voice. I'm sure that if one were to do an analysis of the overtones her voice is able to create, it would be intriguing. And would probably explain some of the immediate emotional reaction as much as the circumstance of her performance. (I won't bore you with the story of the owls and how their bones vibrate to create missing overtones - but suffice it to say that we react to music in very strong and measurable physiological ways). It got me thinking about what other great female singers come to mind. I have to say that, objectively, Joni isn't one of them. (hence my removing the NJC) She has a distinctive voice to be sure. And is a personal favorite, of course... But I wouldn't consider her to have one of the great female voices. Especially since smoking has changed it. (Don't want to start a thread on that.) My suspicion is that Joni would consider herself to be a songwriter more than a singer anyway. But only two non-classical (because I don't feel like I'm at all an authority in that genre) come to mind. Aretha - power, timbre, range, not a wrong note, emotional delivery Eva Cassidy - sweetness, range, not a wrong note, timbre So, I'm wondering who else has a voice that can stand up to or even come close to Susan Boyle's in your opinion... lots of love, Anne p.s. I'm certainly well into double digits on number of times I've watched the video. And I still well up every time! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:03:32 +0100 From: gerard mclaughlin Subject: Fwd: Susan Boyle - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: gerard mclaughlin Date: Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:03 AM Subject: Re: Susan Boyle To: Anne Sandstrom I immediately thought "Piaf" when I heard Susan Boyle and saw the response of the audience. I think Piaf had that same power to "go beyond" pretence and touch souls with the sincerity she was able to express in her singing just like Susan Boyle whom I first heard about yesterday on the joni list even although I live in Scotland! I never watch reality tv if I can avoid it..I also think by the way that Joni Mitchell has a truly great singing voice and dont for a minute think the beauty of her voice has been diminished in any way by smoking.Yes it has constantly changed as she has evolved musically and personally. Depends what you want from a voice.I think you only have to listen to Miles of Aisles from start to finish to recognise a beautiful voice and a singer who knows she's got one. Dont you think? I am amused I must say with the comments on the list around Susan Boyle looking like a country woman from 150 years ago. In fact I am sitting here laughing at the thought. Some of you should come to Glasgow. The streets are chocka with such "plain" women. Of course there are lots of beautiful women too but thankfully the scalpel and the knife aren't in such high demand here yet and we allow our women to look like themselves. Heaven forfend that we go down yon path and end up with a horde of Hollywood lookalikes.Whatever happened to women's liberation?Women should weep.Happiness is after all the best facelift and you cant really be happy surely with someone elses face breasts and butt on you can you?Ygorra laugh.I agree with the person who said Susan Boyle is a Napoleans Josephine lookalikey though . Great powers of observation there and a lovely wry wit. That's one of the things that makes this list such fun at times and I agree get her into a nice wee period frock and we could successfully pigeonhole her while giving us something pretty to look at. As to other great singers Laura Nyro was one On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 7:13 PM, Anne Sandstrom wrote: > Oops. I sent this just to Bob M by mistake... meant for all... > > On Apr 16, 2009, anne@sandstrom.com wrote: > > I believe Susan Boyle may have the most amazing female singing voice > since Jenny Lind. (Hoping, of course, that there was minimal sound > engineering/enhancement in her performance.) For me, it's not about > what she looks like at all. It's that voice. I'm sure that if one > were to do an analysis of the overtones her voice is able to create, > it would be intriguing. And would probably explain some of the > immediate emotional reaction as much as the circumstance of her > performance. (I won't bore you with the story of the owls and how > their bones vibrate to create missing overtones - but suffice it to > say that we react to music in very strong and measurable > physiological ways). > > It got me thinking about what other great female singers come to > mind. > > I have to say that, objectively, Joni isn't one of them. (hence my > removing the NJC) She has a distinctive voice to be sure. And is a > personal favorite, of course... But I wouldn't consider her to have > one of the great female voices. Especially since smoking has changed > it. (Don't want to start a thread on that.) My suspicion is that Joni > would consider herself to be a songwriter more than a singer anyway. > > But only two non-classical (because I don't feel like I'm at all an > authority in that genre) come to mind. > > Aretha - power, timbre, range, not a wrong note, emotional delivery > Eva Cassidy - sweetness, range, not a wrong note, timbre > > So, I'm wondering who else has a voice that can stand up to or even > come close to Susan Boyle's in your opinion... > > lots of love, > Anne > > p.s. I'm certainly well into double digits on number of times I've > watched the video. And I still well up every time! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:03:07 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: Susan Boyle On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Anne Sandstrom wrote: > > So, I'm wondering who else has a voice that can stand up to or even > come close to Susan Boyle's in your opinion... Maureen McGovern Barbara Cook Betty Buckley Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:23:00 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: Susan Boyle I think I would also add Barbara Dickson to my list. Jerry On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Gerald Notaro wrote: > On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Anne Sandstrom wrote: > >> >> So, I'm wondering who else has a voice that can stand up to or even >> come close to Susan Boyle's in your opinion... > > > Maureen McGovern > Barbara Cook > Betty Buckley > > Jerry > > - -- Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 06:12:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Fwd: Susan Boyle - --- On Fri, 4/17/09, gerard mclaughlin wrote: > > I immediately thought "Piaf" when I heard Susan Boyle and > saw the response > of the audience. I think Piaf had that same power to "go > beyond" pretence > and touch souls with the sincerity she was able to express > in her singing > just like Susan Boyle Good point. Piaf for sure, and you don't need to understand the language to appreciate it. > I also think by the way that Joni Mitchell has a truly > great singing > voice and dont for a minute think the beauty of her voice > has been > diminished in any way by smoking.Yes it has constantly > changed as she has > evolved musically and personally. Depends what you want > from a voice. I think I understand what Anne is saying, but I understand what you're saying as well. Joni doesn't necessarily affect me as a singer so much as a songwriter. If she were someone who just sang other people's songs, I'm not sure if I'd care for her voice. And yet, there are albums where her voice truly shines (in the way I enjoy a voice anyway.) For me, I love her voice on "Mingus" and "Shadows and Light" and that period in there. I agree that she does convey a lot of feeling even with her older (smoky) voice, although I think I prefer the middle period, at least in terms of what an ideal voice is to me, and I know it's different for everyone, and I know that sometimes it's not the pretty voice that captivates us so much as the soulful one, I suppose. > I am amused I must say with the comments on the list around > Susan Boyle > looking like a country woman from 150 years ago. In fact I > am sitting here > laughing at the thought. Some of you should come to > Glasgow. The streets are > chocka with such "plain" women. Of course there are lots of > beautiful women > too but thankfully the scalpel and the knife aren't in such > high demand here > yet and we allow our women to look like themselves. I was one of the ones that said that, but I meant it in a good way. It's refreshing to see a real person. Her personality shines through. I recognize that my comment about "seeing her in an empire dress" might have sounded weird, but I wasn't trying to be funny. I happen to like that period myself. On the other hand, she also looks like someone you might meet at the local pub and have a beer and a chat with. I find it disturbing that, as a culture, we have become so superficial that sometimes it seems we care only about what a person looks like and not what kind of person they are and I am still horrified that people were laughing at her before she started singing. Not only are we a superficial culture (and by "we," I don't mean every one of us, but the faddish e-for-entertainment culture that is thrust upon us - I find myself both fascinated and repelled by that entire medium), but we also expect a particular homogenous form of beauty, where everyone is moulded and scalpeled and botoxed to conform to something that someone considers "beautiful," or else it seems they're handpicked first for their look and then given some singing lessons and a lot of machinery to back them up. I have a hard time distinguishing some of the younger pop singers from one another, because not only do they all look alike, they also sound alike, and their voices are not real voices but are enhanced in the studio and it's very obvious that they are. Is it because I'm an old fart and it all looks and sounds the same? Partly, maybe, but mostly, I think not. I've seen videos on TV where the singer is singer X (I honestly do NOT remember the names of most of them) but singer Y is also singing with them and I can't distinguish which of them is the main singer and which is the "featured" singer, nor can I distinguish their voices from one another and add to that, I can't hear any difference between that person's voice and the voice of any other performer in that particular genre of music. One that comes easily to mind is the Pussycat Dolls, whoever or whatever they are supposed to be. I remember them only because there are a bunch of them, rather than just one, and I'm constantly mystified by how they are as popular as they are, but I suppose it's the clothing, or lack thereof, because I don't hear anything. To me, despite different hair colours, they all look alike and they all sound alike and they also sound like any number of whatever that particular style of music is called. They could have been cloned for all I know, because there is nothing memorable about so many of them (and I recognize there are exceptions) and in a year or two, when they're become ancient at age 25, they will be gone and replaced by next year's model. __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:19:06 +0100 From: gerard mclaughlin Subject: Re: Fwd: Susan Boyle Of course that's the nature of the beast- the "music" industry. It's really awful but we are a brain washed and brain drained culture now and the beast I refer to is way up there as a master puppeteer .It is so dull and dreary in its superficiality and the streets are full of little versions of all these nipped and tucked drones we see on the famous red carpet or MTV.And you're right they all look and sound so alike its impossible to distinguish one from the other with a few exceptions.You'd think with the big cultural mix in our cities that we would get to enjoy diversity but no, it would appear an increasing number of us are morphing into and dressing like all these fat and wrinkle drained and chemically enhanced celebrities. I cannot grasp why so many apparently intelligent and talented women are allowing themselves to be brutally disfigured by surgeons in an attempt to be socially acceptable- it baffles.Of course loads of men are too but then they do take the lead from their women more and more. Shame this is one of the most obvious outcomes of " liberation". Apparently that other pop industry"Cosmetic Surgery" is aiming at toddlers too now with their recommendations for how to look better ...age 4. It's Hitlerian.So it is refreshing to see the response to Susan Boyle, but the makeover chatter has already begun...She'll be looking like Charleze Theron in no time if she doesn't keep her wits about her !! I did get the lightheartedness of you comment, Catherine about seeing Ms Boyle in an empire dress and I agree better to look good in an empire dress than to resemble more an empire biscuit. Their absolutely are acceptable limits to self enhancement which ultimately are more beneficial to the wider community. Today I look like a burst hotdog bun but before I go outside I will tidy up.I wish I could sing like Susan though.Apologies for the njc. On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Catherine McKay wrote: > > > > --- On Fri, 4/17/09, gerard mclaughlin wrote: > > > > > I immediately thought "Piaf" when I heard Susan Boyle and > > saw the response > > of the audience. I think Piaf had that same power to "go > > beyond" pretence > > and touch souls with the sincerity she was able to express > > in her singing > > just like Susan Boyle > > Good point. Piaf for sure, and you don't need to understand the language to > appreciate it. > > > I also think by the way that Joni Mitchell has a truly > > great singing > > voice and dont for a minute think the beauty of her voice > > has been > > diminished in any way by smoking.Yes it has constantly > > changed as she has > > evolved musically and personally. Depends what you want > > from a voice. > > I think I understand what Anne is saying, but I understand what you're > saying as well. Joni doesn't necessarily affect me as a singer so much as a > songwriter. If she were someone who just sang other people's songs, I'm not > sure if I'd care for her voice. And yet, there are albums where her voice > truly shines (in the way I enjoy a voice anyway.) For me, I love her voice > on "Mingus" and "Shadows and Light" and that period in there. I agree that > she does convey a lot of feeling even with her older (smoky) voice, although > I think I prefer the middle period, at least in terms of what an ideal voice > is to me, and I know it's different for everyone, and I know that sometimes > it's not the pretty voice that captivates us so much as the soulful one, I > suppose. > > > I am amused I must say with the comments on the list around > > Susan Boyle > > looking like a country woman from 150 years ago. In fact I > > am sitting here > > laughing at the thought. Some of you should come to > > Glasgow. The streets are > > chocka with such "plain" women. Of course there are lots of > > beautiful women > > too but thankfully the scalpel and the knife aren't in such > > high demand here > > yet and we allow our women to look like themselves. > > I was one of the ones that said that, but I meant it in a good way. It's > refreshing to see a real person. Her personality shines through. I recognize > that my comment about "seeing her in an empire dress" might have sounded > weird, but I wasn't trying to be funny. I happen to like that period myself. > On the other hand, she also looks like someone you might meet at the local > pub and have a beer and a chat with. > > I find it disturbing that, as a culture, we have become so superficial that > sometimes it seems we care only about what a person looks like and not what > kind of person they are and I am still horrified that people were laughing > at her before she started singing. Not only are we a superficial culture > (and by "we," I don't mean every one of us, but the faddish > e-for-entertainment culture that is thrust upon us - I find myself both > fascinated and repelled by that entire medium), but we also expect a > particular homogenous form of beauty, where everyone is moulded and > scalpeled and botoxed to conform to something that someone considers > "beautiful," or else it seems they're handpicked first for their look and > then given some singing lessons and a lot of machinery to back them up. > > I have a hard time distinguishing some of the younger pop singers from one > another, because not only do they all look alike, they also sound alike, and > their voices are not real voices but are enhanced in the studio and it's > very obvious that they are. Is it because I'm an old fart and it all looks > and sounds the same? Partly, maybe, but mostly, I think not. I've seen > videos on TV where the singer is singer X (I honestly do NOT remember the > names of most of them) but singer Y is also singing with them and I can't > distinguish which of them is the main singer and which is the "featured" > singer, nor can I distinguish their voices from one another and add to that, > I can't hear any difference between that person's voice and the voice of any > other performer in that particular genre of music. One that comes easily to > mind is the Pussycat Dolls, whoever or whatever they are supposed to be. I > remember them only because there are a bunch of them, rather than just > one, and I'm constantly mystified by how they are as popular as they are, > but I suppose it's the clothing, or lack thereof, because I don't hear > anything. > > To me, despite different hair colours, they all look alike and they all > sound alike and they also sound like any number of whatever that particular > style of music is called. They could have been cloned for all I know, > because there is nothing memorable about so many of them (and I recognize > there are exceptions) and in a year or two, when they're become ancient at > age 25, they will be gone and replaced by next year's model. > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 09:37:28 -0600 From: Kate Johnson Subject: Re: Susan Boyle On 17-Apr-09, at 4:03 AM, gerard mclaughlin wrote: I also think by the way that Joni Mitchell has a truly great singing voice and dont for a minute think the beauty of her voice has been diminished in any way by smoking.Yes it has constantly changed as she has evolved musically and personally. Depends what you want from a voice.I think you only have to listen to Miles of Aisles from start to finish to recognise a beautiful voice and a singer who knows she's got one. Dont you think? I'm with you on this one Gerard. I think Joni's got an incredibly beautiful voice, from day one till right now. And what an emoter! (is that a word?) She's no Maria Callas ... but then, Maria Callas singing Joni's songs isn't the way I'd want to hear them. The operatic voice, for instance, is technically incredible ... but it never, ever moves me the way Joni's does. Kate of the North *** What's cookin' in the wild west? http://stubblejumperscafe.pnn.com/6853-the-front-page ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:44:57 -0400 From: Gerald Notaro Subject: Re: Susan Boyle Truth be told, Maria had one of the worst voices for a famous diva for most of her career. It was her acting that propelled her career. On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Kate Johnson wrote: > On 17-Apr-09, at 4:03 AM, gerard mclaughlin wrote: > > I also think by the way that Joni Mitchell has a truly great singing > voice and dont for a minute think the beauty of her voice has been > diminished in any way by smoking.Yes it has constantly changed as she > has > evolved musically and personally. Depends what you want from a > voice.I think > you only have to listen to Miles of Aisles from start to finish to > recognise > a beautiful voice and a singer who knows she's got one. Dont you think? > > > I'm with you on this one Gerard. I think Joni's got an incredibly > beautiful voice, from day one till right now. And what an emoter! (is > that a word?) > She's no Maria Callas ... but then, Maria Callas singing Joni's songs > isn't the way I'd want to hear them. > The operatic voice, for instance, is technically incredible ... but > it never, ever moves me the way Joni's does. > > Kate of the North > > > *** > What's cookin' in the wild west? > http://stubblejumperscafe.pnn.com/6853-the-front-page > - -- Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:47:47 +0100 From: gerard mclaughlin Subject: Re: Susan Boyle I think Callas could have got away with Woman of Heart and Mind wonderfully well but the true uniqeness of Joni Mitchell is that no-one can sing her songs the way she does. For me there's no separation in Joni eg singer/songwriter. The songs come out of her lyrically, musically, vocally. She is her own instrument and in my book an impeccably beautiful one. On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Kate Johnson wrote: > > On 17-Apr-09, at 4:03 AM, gerard mclaughlin wrote: > > I also think by the way that Joni Mitchell has a truly great singing > > voice and dont for a minute think the beauty of her voice has been > > diminished in any way by smoking.Yes it has constantly changed as she has > > evolved musically and personally. Depends what you want from a voice.I > think > > you only have to listen to Miles of Aisles from start to finish to > recognise > > a beautiful voice and a singer who knows she's got one. Dont you think? > > > I'm with you on this one Gerard. I think Joni's got an incredibly beautiful > voice, from day one till right now. And what an emoter! (is that a word?) > She's no Maria Callas ... but then, Maria Callas singing Joni's songs isn't > the way I'd want to hear them. > The operatic voice, for instance, is technically incredible ... but it > never, ever moves me the way Joni's does. > > Kate of the North > > > *** > What's cookin' in the wild west? > http://stubblejumperscafe.pnn.com/6853-the-front-page ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:55:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Susan Boyle Ha! I soooooo want to hear Susan Boyle do WOHAM!!!!!!! :) Em - --- On Fri, 4/17/09, gerard mclaughlin wrote: From: gerard mclaughlin Subject: Re: Susan Boyle To: "Kate Johnson" Cc: "jonipeople" Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 11:47 AM I think Callas could have got away with Woman of Heart and Mind wonderfully ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 11:57:14 -0700 From: "Cassy" Subject: JoniFest Setlists? Is there a compilation of setlists for JoniFests in existence anywhere? I'd love to see which songs have been covered at fests in the past. Thanks for any help on this. Cassy NP: Joni - Talk To Me If Iraq's biggest export was broccoli, would we still be there ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:13:21 -0600 From: Kate Johnson Subject: Re: JoniFest Setlists? Speaking of Jonifests, when and where is the next one and who is organizing it? (I don't pay close enough attention because I've never gotten serious about attending one yet. Yes, I can imagine what I am missing. One day I'll hit the road to get to one. Especially if Mags sets one up in Winnipeg.) Kate *** What's cookin' in the wild west? http://stubblejumperscafe.pnn.com/6853-the-front-page On 17-Apr-09, at 12:57 PM, Cassy wrote: Is there a compilation of setlists for JoniFests in existence anywhere? I'd love to see which songs have been covered at fests in the past. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 15:09:35 -0700 From: "Cassy" Subject: Re: JoniFest Setlists? From: Kate Johnson <<< Speaking of Jonifests, when and where is the next one and who is organizing it? >>> Hi Kate, JoniFest is going to be in September, 2009 at the Creekstone Inn, Idyllwild, California. Here is the blurb from the yahoo group. A gathering of Joni Mitchell devotees and performers from around the world. From September 24-27 2009 at the Creekstone Inn in the mile-high pine forest of Idyllwild, California, USA. Check it out at http://www.creekstoneinn.com/ The deadline to pay deposits is May 1st 2009. Dave Blackburn is the organizer extraordinaire and there is a Yahoo group for it at: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/SoCalJoniFest09/ Maybe we'll see you there? Cassy NP: Jack Neilson - Blue Boy If Iraq's biggest export was broccoli, would we still be there ? ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2009 #106 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe