From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2009 #6 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, January 8 2009 Volume 2009 : Number 006 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Steely Dan [Mark-Leon Thorne ] SV: new Joni book - now about Girls Like Us ["Marion Leffler" ] Re: John Kelly/Paved Paradise Redux [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: new Joni book - now about Girls Like Us ["Corey Blake" Subject: Re: Steely Dan Yes Dave, I can hear a clear correlation between SD and Joni. Your example of Harry's House is a nice example of the way Fagan/Becker write. A comment on contemporary American society. I find their lyrics just as complex as Joni's but the obvious difference is Joni's knack of personalising these comments (not always). I can see why Joni feels attuned to SD's songs. Something in the music too. Dave, I'd love to know your take on the musical comparison. Mark in sweltering Sydney. NP Carolina On My Mind (Live with Joni) - James Taylor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:09:39 +0100 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: new Joni book - now about Girls Like Us Hi Lieve, I meant to respond earlier but havent had the time. I am glad you enjoy the book even though I do not share your enthusiasm for it. But since you asked, I will try to explain my point of view. First of all, I have to admit that I only read the Joni part so far, so I cant say anything about the other parts. What bothers me most is the use the author makes of her sources, in most cases she does not question them or scrutinize them but takes them at face value and makes a case based on unchecked information. Of course, this might be an occupational damage on my part, since as a historian my very first rule would be to evaluate the sources regarding their relevance and reliability. In the case of oral sources there are additional difficulties concerning memory and experience. Whatever a person tells you is probably true from their point of view but is also influenced by this persons own experiences and selective and changing memory and therefore really tell you more about this person than what he/she is telling you about somebody else. So what you would have to do is to evaluate the informants motives, amongst other things. Weller does do this sometimes, like in the section about Joni, Chuck and Kelly, and to me, she offers a very interesting analysis there. I would have liked to see more of that kind of analysis! I do agree with you that there is a lot of respect for Joni, a feminist perspective and an attempt to understand the times but there are just too many loose ends for me to really be impressed. Its been a while since I read the book (or part of it) so in order to give you more detailed examples I would have to re-read it. One example I remember is the part about Jonis suicide attempt. Not that I would put anything like that passed Joni but Sheila Wellers account is just not convincing. Her main evidence is the song Car on a hill on C&S. If at least she had picked Trouble Child! The account of the suicide attempt originates from a confidante. This is just too weak a case to make of such a serious matter and therefore ends up like something the tabloids you (and I) hate so much would report (but didnt at the time, as far as I remember). Another circumstance that left me wondering and on which Weller offers no analysis or interpretation is her account that Joni has been beaten by some of her lovers. To me this indicates something about the complex conditions for successful women not only in music but everywhere and, importantly, also about the contradictions of the 60s and 70s that would have been well worth thinking about. A deeper analysis could have made Jonis world more comprehensible. I hope I made some sense! Like you said, we dont have to convince each other and I am not trying to make you see things my way. We read books from the perspective of our own lives and experience so what happens is some sort of encounter between the reader and the text. And since our lives change we dont even understand the same book in exactly the same way when we reread it after some time, do we? Thats what makes reading and talking about books intriguing, doesnt it? Got to get back to work now. If you have any more questions, Id be happy to try and answer. Have a good day! Love, Marion _____ Fren: Lieve Reckers [mailto:lievereckers@yahoo.co.uk] Skickat: den 6 januari 2009 13:05 Till: jonipeople LIST; coreyblake@gmail.com; marionleffler@telia.com Dmne: Re: new Joni book - now about Girls Like Us Corey, thanks for your reaction. I'm glad you are enjoying the book. I understand what you say about the asterisks and asides, but I must say in the book's defense that I found the author handled this very well, compared to other biographies and researched his tory books I have read, where the asides are often dull or obscure or irrelevant. Without these asides, she would either have ended up with more of a ramble in the main text, or have had to drop information that I am glad I got in those asides. I think the advantage of an aside is that you can decide to read it, or read it later, without having the main flow of the book affected. While reading this book, I thought several times to myself: "This side note is really interesting, I'm glad she put this here." I hope you will continue to enjoy the rest of the read, Corey! (I still have a small portion left to go too, but it will have to wait a few days until I have the right time. I am sort of expecting a bit of a let-down, as the more recent unfinished business of a biography is often a rush job without the benefit of perspective.) Marion, isn't it funny how we react so differently to the same book? I said that I thought the book was well researched, you wrote that the book is totally lacking serious analysis. I really respect your opinion and see no need to try and convince you of my viewpoint, but maybe a little friendly exchange could be useful? Could you maybe tell me what sort of analysis you found missing? Maybe we just had different expectations. For instance, as I think Corey also said, the book does not go into great detail about the music, although I find it does reflect the spirit of the music quite well. But certainly if one really wants to read about the music and analyse it, this is not the right book. I know this is probably not what you were after, but I mean to say that maybe it is similar, i.e. that you simply wanted to find something that the author had not set out to do. For me she did almost exactly what I could have wished for. And I certainly don't want gory-detailed gossip or breach of privacy (which I so hate in many newspapers). I felt that the sources, named and unnamed, stayed within the boundaries of what was either already known (but the author's achievement was to put it all together in context) or what remained respectful. It's true, much remains say-so and objective opinion/observation, but I feel that is inevitable in a biography, even (or even more so!) if it had been with the input of the subjects themselves! Marion, just looking again at what you wrote, I understand you would like more analysis of things reported by third parties. Would that not be, in most cases, just more hypothesis and guess work, and would it therefore not be better to just leave us to discretely ponder by ourselves? I'd be happy to get some examples of what you fund missing, but in any case we don't need to end up persuading each other, it's just fun to understand what the other means! Tastes vary with books as with music and that's all good, but to me this is a really great book that deserves more credit than it has got here, so I'm happy to represent that voice just for balance. All the best, Lieve in London. - ---------- Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 20:03:20 -0800 From: Corey Blake Subject: Hi Lieve, Thanks for your review of the book. I'm reading it now. I'm maybe about a third of the way through. There's a lot of information I never knew, so it's a really fascinating read for me. However, her sentence structure has a tendency to get a bit unwieldy. She also really loves her asides and asterisks. And while she does have a lot of unnamed sources, she also has a lot of really good first hand sources (shy of Joni and Carole themselves of course) like Larry Klien and other musicians and friends. (cut) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:46:48 +0100 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: New Joni book I agree with you Bob, but in my opinion investigating the darker side would also demand some sort of serious analysis on the author's part, which I find nearly totally lacking in Sheila Weller's book. Without it, the info she gives - often referring to anonymous sources - is just gossip. There is only one section in the book that does do some analysing, the part where she reflects on Joni's decision to give up Kelly for adoption and presents an interesting interpretation. My opinion, of course. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:13:13 +0100 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: new Joni book - now about Girls Like Us Marianne wrote: "I guess the true test is what Joni and Carlie and Carole King thinks" Exactly, Marianne, but will we ever know? Marion ------------------------------ From: Lieve Reckers Subject: re: new Joni book - now about Girls Like Us _________________________________________________________________ Its the same Hotmail.. If by same you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_1 2 2008 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:15:30 -0800 (PST) From: Andy Stancliffe Subject: John Kelly/Paved Paradise Redux I finally got the chance to see John Kelly do his show last night at the Hammer Museum here in LA. It was such a great show; I wasn't sure what to expect, but after the first few songs, I totally fell under the spell, and had tears in my eyes as he played A Case of You on dulcimer. A great song selection, from Just Like Me to Shine, with so many great songs in between--Down to You, Harry's House, Amelia, Rainy Night House, Blue, Shadows and Light, Magdalene Laundries, and more. He played the lute on For the Roses and Circle Game, and I loved that he really captured the way Joni moves when she's onstage. All in all a magical evening. I had hoped Joni might be there, since she can practically walk to the Hammer from her house, but John mentioned that she was in Canada until the end of the month. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:56:54 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: John Kelly/Paved Paradise Redux Andy, thanks so much for the report - what an amazing setlist. Bob NP: The Cure, "The Scream" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 10:41:26 -0800 From: "Corey Blake" Subject: Re: new Joni book - now about Girls Like Us For what it's worth, Carly recommended the book on her website right before it was released. I think it's still listed on the sidebar of the News page. Although later on her blog she seemed to say that she hadn't read it yet. I imagine the recommendation might have been more based on Carly's positive experience being involved with the writer's interviewing for the book, but of course that's entirely my speculation. I'm really enjoying people's points about the book. Marion, your post previous to this one was also excellent and you make good points about Sheila perhaps not scrutinizing or digging a bit deeper at times. - -Corey On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 3:13 AM, Marion Leffler wrote: > Marianne wrote: > > > > > > "I guess the true test is what Joni and Carlie and Carole King thinks" > > > > Exactly, Marianne, but will we ever know? > > > > Marion > > > > > > ------------------------------ From: Lieve Reckers > > Subject: re: new Joni book - now about Girls > Like > Us > > _________________________________________________________________ > > It s the same Hotmail.. If by same you mean up to 70% faster. > > > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_1 > 2 > > 2008 > - -- http://www.CoreyBlake.com - a whole lot of me Newest video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrlQ9gU-9HU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:55:42 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Muller Subject: Free Man In Paris by They Only Look Dead Because a day without a Joni cover is like a day without sunshine or even air: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RD7F7nvO_8 This is a nice rocker, check out the drums. Very Rush/Proggish methinks. Bob NP: Acoustic Nuisance, "Both Sides Now" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 00:17:51 +0000 (GMT) From: Lieve Reckers Subject: Re: SV: new Joni book - now about Girls Like Us Dear Marion, thanks very much for your reply.B We both agree it is fine to have our own, different appreciation of the book, but I find this exchange of opinion also very useful.B So just a few more reactions from me. First of all, as soon as I saw that you had only read the parts relating to Joni, I understood much better why you had not been impressed by the whole social context that had impressed me so much in the book.B It's not a criticism, but I really think that if you read it as it is written, you may have a pleasant surprise! I fully agree with what you say about the subjectivity of witnesses.B But as I tried to say before, I think that certain subjects will always remain subjective, even if you asked the person involved!B I think sometimes there IS no real factual truth except for a muddle of motives that may even change with time, when looked back on.B For instance, when I was 22 I moved from Belgium to England.B I thought it would be just for a year or so - - or is that just what I said to keep certain people in Belgium happy?B Hm, not sure.B And why did I make the move?B Well I could give you at least 3 completely different reasons, 3 scenarios that were all true.B So depending on which friend of mine you ask, you may get a different story.B But even if you ask me, I don't really know any more what the real reason was.B Not because I have forgotten, but because it was always complex, and I'm not sure whether I understand myself better now than when I thought I knew at the time.B And on and on it goes.B Why do we go for certain relationships, stick with some and cut off others, why do we feel happy or depressed, do we really know, is there really just one explanation?B Were we following fashion or family pressure, were we influenced by books we had read, songs we had heard, etc etc? To come back to the book, I think Sheila Weller does a good job of showing us a mix of those circumstances, of telling us what the mood of a place and time was, what friends remember, what they were told, etc,B and the rest I think we have to leave blowing in the wind... Yes, I agree, there are loose ends in the book.B I think that's inevitable.B Don't we all have loose ends in our lives? To take the first example you mention, the "suicide attempt".B The author was told this by "several friends", one of whom gave some more details.B (The Car on the Hill was not evidence, as far as I could see, but just a reflection!)B I'm not so sure that I need to see this analysed in more detail. What weB know, is thatB this periodB was a very low point for Joni.B In all honesty I don't need more, I'm happy to leave Joni her privacy.B Besides, the term "suicide attempt" covers so much.B Haven't we all at times felt so low that at least we wanted others to think we might kill ourselves?B How close to the line do you have to go before it is a real attempt?B All I want to say is, I don't need to know, I get it that Joni was feeling terribly depressed.B I'm glad she got through it.B I love how it is expressed in her music. You also mention, with respect to "beatings from boyfriends", that you would like more analysis of the period, of trends etc.B Well I can only say what I said first of all: I hope you wouldB feel happierB if you read the other parts of the book, because to me,B the spirit of the times is skillfully woven amidst the different sections.B In any case, it's great talking with you, Marion! All the best, Lieve in London. ________________________________ From: Marion Leffler To: Lieve Reckers ; jonipeople LIST ; coreyblake@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, 7 January, 2009 11:09:39 Subject: SV: new Joni book - now about Girls Like Us Hi Lieve, I meant to respond earlier but havenbt had the time. I am glad you enjoy the book even though I do not share your enthusiasm for it. But since you asked, I will try to explain my point of view. First of all, I have to admit that I only read the Joni part so far, so I canbt say anything about the other parts. What bothers me most B is the use the author makes of her sources, in most cases she does not question them or scrutinize them but takes them at face value and makes a case based on unchecked information. Of course, this might be an occupational bdamageb on my part, since as a historian my very first rule would be to evaluate the sources regarding their relevance and reliability. In the case of oral sources there are additional difficulties concerning memory and experience. Whatever a person tells you is probably true from their point of view but is also influenced by this personbs own experiences and selective and changing memory and therefore really tell you more about this person than what he/she is telling you about somebody else. So what you would have to do is to evaluate the informantbs motives, amongst other things. Weller does do this sometimes, like in the section about Joni, Chuck and Kelly, and to me, she offers a very interesting analysis there. I would have liked to see more of that kind of analysis! I do agree with you that there is a lot of respect for Joni, a feminist perspective and an attempt to understand bthe timesb but there are just too many loose ends B for me to really be impressed. Itbs been a while since I read the book (or part of it) so in order to give you more detailed examples I would have to re-read it. One example B I remember is the part about Jonibs bsuicide attemptb. Not that I would put anything like that passed Joni but Sheila Wellerbs account is just not convincing. Her main evidence is the song Car on a hill on C&S. If at least she had picked Trouble Child! The account of the suicide attempt originates from ba confidanteb. This is just too weak a case to make of such a serious matter and therefore ends up like something the tabloids you (and I) hate so much would report (but didnbt at the time, as far as I remember). B Another circumstance that left me wondering and on which Weller offers no analysis or interpretation is her account that Joni has been beaten by some of her lovers. To me this indicates something about the complex conditions for successful women not only in music but everywhere and, importantly, B also about the contradictions of the 60bs and 70bs that would have been well worth thinking about. A deeper analysis could have made Jonibs world more comprehensible. I hope I made some sense! Like you said, we donbt have to convince each other and I am not trying to make you see things my way. We read books from the perspective of our own lives and experience so what happens is some sort of encounter between the reader and the text. And since our lives change we donbt even understand the same book in exactly the same way when we reread it after some time, do we? Thatbs what makes reading and talking about books intriguing, doesnbt it? Got to get back to work now. If you have any more questions, Ibd be happy to try and answer. Have a B good day! Love, Marion B B B ________________________________ FrC%n:Lieve Reckers [mailto:lievereckers@yahoo.co.uk] Skickat: den 6 januari 2009 13:05 Till: jonipeople LIST; coreyblake@gmail.com; marionleffler@telia.com Cmne: Re: new Joni book - now about Girls Like Us B Corey, thanks for your reaction.B I'm glad you are enjoying the book.B I understand what you say about the asterisks and asides, but I must say in the book's defense that I found the author handled this very well, compared to other biographies and researched his B tory books I have read, where the asides are often dull or obscure or irrelevant.B Without these asides, she would either have ended up with more of a ramble in the main text, or have had to drop information that I am glad I got in those asides.B I think the advantage of an aside is that you can decide to read it, or read it later, without having the main flow of the book affected.B While reading this book, I thought several times to myself: "ThisB side note isB really interesting,B I'm glad she put this here."B I hope you will continue to enjoy the rest of the read, Corey!B (I still have a small portion left to go too, but it will have to wait a few days until I have the right time.B I am sort of expecting a bit of a let-down, as the more recent unfinished business of a biography is often a rush job without the benefit of perspective.) B Marion, isn't it funny how we react so differently to the same book?B IB said that I thought the book was well researched, you wrote that the book is totallyB lacking serious analysis.B I really respect your opinion and see no need to try and convince you of my viewpoint, but maybe a little friendly exchange could be useful?B Could you maybe tell me what sort of analysis you found missing?B Maybe we just had different expectations.B For instance, as I think Corey also said, the book does not go into great detail about the music, although I find it does reflect the spirit of the music quite well.B But certainly ifB one really wants to read about the music and analyse it, this is not the right book.B I know this is probably not what you were after, but I mean to say that maybe it is similar, i.e. that you simply wanted to find something that the author had not set out to do.B For me she did almost exactly what I could have wished for.B And I certainly don't wantB gory-detailed gossip or breach of privacy (which I so hate in many newspapers).B I felt that the sources, named and unnamed, stayed within the boundaries of what was either already known (but the author's achievement wasB to putB it all together in context) or what remained respectful. It's true, much remains say-so and objective opinion/observation, but I feel that is inevitable in a biography, evenB (or even more so!) if it had been with the input of the subjects themselves! Marion, just looking again at what you wrote, I understand you would like more analysis of things reported by third parties.B Would that not be, in most cases, justB more hypothesis and guess work, and would it therefore not be better to just leave us to discretely ponder by ourselves?B I'd be happy to get some examples of what you fund missing, but in any case we don't need to end up persuading each other, it's just fun to understand what the other means! B Tastes vary with books as with music and that's all good, but to me this is a really great book that deserves more credit than it has got here, so I'm happy to represent that voice just for balance. All the best, Lieve in London. - ---------- Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 20:03:20 -0800 From: Corey Blake Subject: Hi Lieve, Thanks for your review of the book. I'm reading it now. I'm maybeB about a third of the way through. There's a lot of information I neverB knew, so it's a really fascinating read for me. However, her sentenceB structure has a tendency to get a bit unwieldy. She also really lovesB her asides and asterisks. And while she does have a lot of unnamedB sources, she also has a lot of really good first hand sources (shy ofB Joni and Carole themselves of course) like Larry Klien and otherB musicians and friends. (cut) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:46:48 +0100 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: New Joni book I agree with you Bob, but in my opinion investigating the darker side would also demand some sort of serious analysis on the author's part, which I find nearly totally lacking in Sheila Weller's book. Without it, the info she gives - often referring to anonymous sources - is just gossip. There is only one section in the book that does do some analysing, the part where she reflects on Joni's decision to give up Kelly for adoption and presents an interesting interpretation. My opinion, of course. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2009 #6 ******************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe