From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #201 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, October 14 2008 Volume 2008 : Number 201 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Hisssssssss... [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: Hisssssssss... [do9eatdo9@yahoo.com] Re: Hisssssssss... [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: Hissssssssssss [Laura Stanley ] Last Chance Lost for UK Jonifest recordings and HOSL chime in [Dave Black] Re: Last Chance Lost for UK Jonifest recordings and HOSL chime in [Victor] Hisssssssss... [Stewart.Simon@sunlife.com] Re: Hisssssssss... [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: Hisssssssss... [Bob Muller ] Re: Hisssssssss... ["Mark Angelo" ] Joni's Woodstock on the cover channel?! [Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: Re: Hisssssssss... I'm with you, Monika. I think it's a brilliantly poetic description of Summer. What was Rolling Stone thinking? I actually think, The Hissing of Summer Lawns is one of the all time great album titles. It is one of Joni's best. I don't see (or hear) a great leap in style either. Just the fact that C&S had an accomplished band backing her up, both albums have distinct jazz inflections to my ears. C&S had some of Joni's best songs on it but THOSL was a stroke of genius as a conceptual album. I think Joni's genius is recognised from her entire body of work. Had she stopped after her first six albums, she certainly would not be recognised as the jazz giant she is, only someone who dabbled in it. It wasn't until DJRD and Hejira that she really dove right in. THOSL is in my top five favourite Joni albums. I'd say even number two, right after FTR. I see it as an important chapter of Joni's life too. Part of the transition into jazz and essential stories to mull over. The multi-layered story of Harry's House, the personal confessions on Don't Interrupt The Sorrow, the sadness of the woman in Shades of Scarlett Conquering, the lessons of our desire for youth on Sweet Bird, the film noir atmosphere and the sadness of Edith and The Kingpin, the sense of freedom of In France They Kiss On Main Street, and the rest. THOSL is a journey through Joni's mind of the time and invaluable lessons in the many facets of life and the characters that make up this planet, presented in lush textures and aural cinemascope. Mark in Sydney NP Opus 4 (PFM Remix) - Art of Noise On 13/10/2008, at 6:00 PM, onlyJMDL Digest wrote: > As you may well know, we will never see eye to eye on the topic of > THOSL so > it is almost useless going back and forth trying to pass an idea > here or there > though I do enjoy the varying opinions. I will nod my head when > you say we > must agree to disagree. What more can be said? > As for RS calling THOSL the worst album title of the year, well, > their > opinion on anything has been useless now for years. I would never > turn to a > magazine or a critic (or even another fan) to form my own opinion. > I will say > I do like to read the reviews and hear fans' opinions on different > works. I > particularly enjoy looking at Amazon.com (or reading opinions here > as far as > Joni is concerned). That is filled with regular people expressing > their > opinion with no agenda. I like to get an idea of what an album or > book or > whatever it is, is about before getting it for myself.. > And as far as Dylan goes, I would stand by what you implied I > said. Indeed, > I would say Dylan is a good artist, not a great artist. Great > songwriter. > Good musician. Decent guitarist. Some great albums. Some good > albums. Some > shit albums. Not such a good singer but his voice is perfect for > what he does > so yes, good artist but not great artist (and I am a fan of Dylan's). > - -Monika, who thinks THOSL was the perfect, fitting title for the > album ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 16:45:43 +0700 From: do9eatdo9@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Hisssssssss... Mark wrote: .... the film noir atmosphere and the sadness of Edith and The Kingpin... >>> Mmmm... What appear on my mind is not film noir genre. But films like Taxi Driver (robert de niro, jodie foster). The atmosphere, the character, the setting, the color. Rian Just watched All About Eve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:53:11 +1100 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Hisssssssss... That's interesting, Rian. I hear a 1940s style. Something like The Maltese Falcon, anything by Mickey Spilane. The smokey gin joint/jazz club. The Kingpin might be Humphrey Bogart. I'm not sure if this can fall into the film noire category but, you get my drift. Edith is Ingrid Bergman or someone even more vulnerable but then again, I guess she is a little conniving and that's her weapon - "each with charms to sway". Edith can manipulate with the best of them. Mark in Sydney NP Yebo! - Art of Noise On 13/10/2008, at 8:45 PM, do9eatdo9@yahoo.com wrote: > Mark wrote: > > .... the film noir atmosphere and the sadness of Edith and The > Kingpin... > >>>> > Mmmm... What appear on my mind is not film noir genre. But films > like Taxi Driver (robert de niro, jodie foster). The atmosphere, > the character, the setting, the color. > > > Rian > Just watched All About Eve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 05:34:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Stanley Subject: Re: Hissssssssssss "There's guns across the river aimin' at ya" wrote: "After all, like it or not her legendary status remains largely based on her first six albums." Hi Billy, Don't you agree there is a big difference in popularity and being a legend? What is your definition of "legendary status?" It seems to me popularity might be what you are talking about rather than legendary... especially since you referred to Rolling Stone magazine. I would say legendary status is highlighted through other artists giving Joni's work notice. To find Edith and the King Pin as well as other songs post FTR being chosen for albums like "A Tribute to Joni Mitchell" and Herbie Hancock's "River" points to the notion that her legendary status goes beyond her first six albums. I'm of the opinion she will continue to grow in legendary status in the years and years to come as her work continues to be studied and noted. Popularity of her first 6 albums will be part of that but not all of it. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 07:48:53 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Last Chance Lost for UK Jonifest recordings and HOSL chime in Hi everyone, The link to download the music from this summer's UK Jonifest at Holycombe House will be expiring on Thursday morning 7.45 PST so if you want to grab it, here it is, before it's Last Chance Lost. Link: https://rcpt.yousendit.com/611533865/ b820827ffed6ee83c9387fb78e1bbb2b thanks, Dave PS On the Dissing of Summer Lawns thread: Personally I think it contains some of Joni's most brilliant songs. However, it most definitely was a risky departure for Joni and was in many ways a very bold experiment that works in some ways and not in others. The music technology of the time lets it down I feel; of course the infamous ARP string Ensemble on Shadows and Light is farty and lame (and eerily forewarns us of the crummy synthesized sounds she chose for "Shine" so it may be that it is Joni's taste in keyboards that is to blame ), the Burundi drums of The Jungle Line are grabbed from a field recording from the Library of Congress I imagine and are distorted and one dimensional, and overall the sound of the album is flat and papery, which I think Billy is fair to point out. Max Bennett's bass is pointy and too loud in the mix, the drum sound is classic mid seventies deadness, which is partly Guerin's single-headed drums themselves and partly the lifeless drum booths of the time. And the vocals are midrange honky, not bringing out the natural lushness of Joni's voice. CAS also suffers from much of the same technical problems and I won't even start on the STAS mix. Ironically Henry Lewy made a much richer sounding record for Joni three and four years earlier on Blue and FTR. But conceptually THOSL is an artistic leap of such daring that it stands alone in the "singer-songwriter" canon, even today. Prince has claimed it, I once read, as one of his favorite records of all time. It's an album one isn't always in the mood for because it jumps around from mood to mood instead of giving you a consistent ride (like CAS does) but when you ARE in the mood, there's nothing like it. Hejira immediately following it addresses almost every one of these complaints; sonically it is gorgeous and still sounds modern and the listening "ride" is unbroken from beginning to end. Then DJRD regresses back to lifeless and distant sounding, conceptually all over the map but compositionally flying on a new set of wings. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:13:35 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Last Chance Lost for UK Jonifest recordings and HOSL chime in Make sure you copy the whole link and not just the highlighted part, which I did initially and then corrected! Victor ps. practicing the violin so I can jam with Paz next weekend. On Oct 13, 2008, at 10:48 AM, Dave Blackburn wrote: > Hi everyone, > The link to download the music from this summer's UK Jonifest at > Holycombe House will be expiring on Thursday morning 7.45 PST so if > you want to grab it, here it is, before it's Last Chance Lost. > > > Link: https://rcpt.yousendit.com/611533865/ > b820827ffed6ee83c9387fb78e1bbb2b ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:25:48 -0400 From: Stewart.Simon@sunlife.com Subject: Hisssssssss... A question once posed to Joni in a late 70's interview went something like this: Q: There was a time when you and the great Laura Nyro (who basically retired at 24 after releasing only 4 classic albums) were considered the leading representatives of the female singer/songwriter genre. Now it's generally considered that Nyro wasn't strong enough to survive in the business. How have you survived? Joni answered that she didn't necessarily agree, and added that "what Laura Nyro did was brave and strong in its own way" and went on to say that she'd seriously considered doing the same thing on several occasions. Billy - Where do you (Or Rolling Stone) come up with just 4 classics? Do Nested and Smile count as classic albums? They were both released in the late 70's .....and are among her finest work in my opinion.....so that makes at least 6 if I assume her first 4 release were meant to be the "classics"... 1.Gonna Take A Miracle 2. Eli and the 13th Confession) 3. NY Tendaberry 4. More Than A Discovery BTW - whoever mentioned Her wolfgang concert Live At the Bottom Line is right on ........really a great concert. I was lucky enough to see her in Cambridge, MA at Nightstage during her last tour. Maybe the best show I have ever seen live...I really miss her. Well, if she'd stopped (let's say after 'CAS/MOA' instead) I don't think her first-rate reputation would have suffered much. After all, like it or not her legendary status remains largely based on her first six albums I think I would say her first 8 albums define her most popular work since you have to include Hejira in the conversation ....I think many people consider it her best work. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail message (including attachments, if any) is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, proprietary , confidential and exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender and erase this e-mail message immediately. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:10:29 EDT From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Hisssssssss... HI, Stewart -- Well, I certainly didn't mean to imply that Laura Nyro only released 4 classic albums during her entire lifetime. Read my post again. What I actually stated was that she'd released only 4--maybe 5--classic albums before she announced her first retirement (which was in or around 1970 or '71). A considerable difference. 1. 'More Than a New Discovery' (a.k.a. 'The First Songs') -- 1967 2. 'Eli and the Thirteenth Confession' -- 1968 3. 'New York Tendaberry' -- 1969 4. 'Christmas and the Beads of Sweat' -- 1970 5. 'Gonna Take a Miracle' (w/Labelle) -- 1971 (an 'all covers' project) After all, I wholeheartedly agree that both 'Smile' (1976) and 'Nested' (1978) are excellent as well. Perhaps not as groundbreaking as my own personal favorites (i.e., the classic trilogy of 'Eli...,' 'NYT'berry' and 'Christmas...'), but they're STILL superb! Oh, and I miss her as well. :-( However, I never stated that Joni's first 6 albums were her "most popular" discs (remember: I'M the one who recently pointed out that 'Hissing...' was her 3rd all-time highest charting release). What I actually suggested was that Joni's first 6 albums were her BEST. ;-) And while I indeed realize that some folks consider 'Hissing...' and 'Hejira' to be among Joni's finest, I (personally) happen to disagree. :-o XXXOOO, Billy ____________________________________________ Stewart.Simon@sunlife.com wrote: >>> Billy - Where do you (or Rolling Stone magazine) come up with just 4 classics? Do 'Nested' and 'Smile' count as classic albums? They were both released in the late 70's .....and are among her finest work in my opinion.....so that makes at least 6 if I assume her first 4 release were meant to be the "classics"... 1.Gonna Take A Miracle 2. Eli and the 13th Confession) 3. NY Tendaberry 4. More Than A Discovery BTW - whoever mentioned Her wolfgang concert Live At the Bottom Line is right on ........really a great concert. I was lucky enough to see her in Cambridge, MA at Nightstage during her last tour. Maybe the best show I have ever seen live...I really miss her. (and) I think I would say Joni's first 8 albums define her most popular work since you have to include 'Hejira' in the conversation ....I think many people consider it her best work. <<< ___________________________________________ wtking59@cs.com wrote: >>> First of all (Monika), NO artist that I can think of in the history of popular music ever changed as radically as Joni did between 'CAS' and "THOSL.' If it weren't for the similarity in the vocals, one would almost think it was an entirely different person. I mean, change and progression is ONE thing (which, BTW, I greatly admire...and believe Joni masterfully demonstrated between albums 1 and 6), but THIS was an entirely different kettle of fish. As if she'd somehow been "replaced" with an alien "pod person" (straight outta "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"). You asked: "what if Joni would have stopped and retired from music after 'FTR'?" Well, if she'd stopped (let's say after 'CAS/MOA' instead) I don't think her first-rate reputation would have suffered much. Like it or not, Joni's legendary status remains largely based on her first six albums. Even if--God forbid--she'd tragically died young, I'd like to believe Joni would STILL be highly regarded and remembered (I mean, just look at the posthumous fame of Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin!). A question once posed to Joni in a late 70's interview went something like this: Q: There was a time when you and the great Laura Nyro (who basically retired at 24 after releasing only 4 classic albums) were considered the leading representatives of the female singer/songwriter genre. Now it's generally considered that Nyro wasn't strong enough to survive in the business. How have you survived? Joni answered that she didn't necessarily agree, and added that "what Laura Nyro did was brave and strong in its own way" and went on to say that she'd seriously considered doing the same thing on several occasions. Therefore, what would we have missed had she quit? Quite a bit, IMO. At the same time, however, I guess one could argue that we'd have also been spared the sometimes inferior work that clutters--and, perhaps, diminishes--her discography. <<< ************** New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:56:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Hisssssssss... Mine as well, without a doubt. It's funny, I always list Hejira as my favorite, and it is, but when I want to hear a Joni album from start to finish, I ALWAYS go for HOSL or CAS, never for Hejira. It's almost too much for me to digest from beginning to end, even after all these years. Bob NP: Eli "Paperboy" Reed & The True Loves, "Won't Give Up Without A Fight" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 00:13:37 -0400 From: "Mark Angelo" Subject: Re: Hisssssssss... I will chime in I suppose while I'm listening to The Seeding of Summer Lawns regarding the discussion of the Dissing of Summer Lawns. I believe that just the fact that the topic itself has generated so much fervent discussion speaks to just how powerful an album this work by Joni is. This is as I recall my first album I purchased of Joni's, in the 10th grade at college preparatory school in Austin. My first exposure to Joni's music would have been around 8th grade or so, and there was one radio station that broadcast fairly recent albums that were popular in the US and I taped the whole thing on my parents' reel-to-reel in Saudi and immediately fell in love with it. Fellow Canadian Gordon Lightfoot must have had a popular album at the time containing the song "Sundown" as I remember it being on the same reel. I agree with Monika and Mark that the name of the album is a fine one, provoking images of Summer (with the controversial b&w inset picture of Joni sporting an unusually in-vogue hair cut (as she tends to be a style setter - not one who follows trends) bathing in her bluuuuuuuuue pooooooooool squinting in the summer sun. Also the title is the first hint of her repudiation of accepted Western Cultural norms in an album title, all those Californian lawns hissing continually during the summer in a region which lush, green lawns such as those back East cannot naturally exist without constant irrigation in a naturally arid climate which receives on average absolutely zero rainfall in the hot summer months. There is probably also the double entendre having to do with the proverbial serpent Joni employs but I really need to reexamine the lyrics of all of THOSL as I was quite the sheltered soul at that point in my life and although I loved the music right away after only having heard C&S and resonated with the lyrics at some level I did not grasp all of them at that time. (The title FTR is a repudiation in a sense as well as I recall from a previous discussion - though I think it has more to do with that other rather frequent theme of her of "Number One", this time being in the Recording Industry, with the idea being that the winning horse is crowned with a ring of roses, and subsequently makes it's way to a glue factory - they build you and and they tear you down essentially - and there is something about Joni's portrait involving a horse with roses sticking out of it's rear quarters which of course was rejected by the recording industry "authorities"). The album is chock full of some of Joni's most complex lyrics which to this day I still discover some new meaning in. From Harry's House -Centerpiece: A helicopter lands on the Pan Am roof Like a dragonfly on a tomb - - A damning critique of Western Culture that is omnipresent in her music and foreshadows the ephemeral fate of concrete monuments built to emphasize man's egotistical sense of power in the subsequent song Sweet Bird. While at home their paper wives And paper kids Paper the walls to keep their gut reactions hid - - Our culture - the basis of which is the Shopping Mall Regime - is still dependent on the paradigm of people going out and temporarily "papering" over their gut reactions with "new, improved, now with (insert bizarrely named scientific tunnel vision product)" which ultimately brings them no more happiness. Battalions of paper minded males Talking commodities and sales - - Exactly what the nation has been obsessed with of recent, an imploding economy as finance and it's absurd creation of "paper" instruments no one can understand which when it has extended as much credit (and thus debt that will be defaulted on) as is possible thinks they can somehow buck historical precedent believing that going into infinite debt by creation of infinitely more money by simply adding more zeros to numbers existing only in computers will lead to any thing but infinite inflation which ends something like the "paper" fiat currency of the countless former debtor nations. Notice how when the economy is tanking - and every one's number one concern - - that being SECURITY - how talk of global warming and the environment ceases. This is the inevitable non-sustainable economy vs environment issue that Joni has always maintained (rightly) are unfortunately but necessarily at odds with one another. Anyways so many invaluable lyrics that would presage her later social and political commentary. All of the songs on THOSL are original however and I can't imagine Joni's repertoire not including them (though I still find The Jungle Line to be a bit rough to my ears). What would we do without Sweet Bird? What song is more "meta" than that? The song that transcends the ego and it's ephemeral manifestations of romantic relationships, politics, religions, and civilizations? I love that strong open-tuned guitar strumming, perhaps the strongest acoustic presence since FTR's Cold Blue Steel And Sweet Fire and C&S' People's Parties. As such I don't think it is at all dated. And Edith And The Kingpin? With such intricate and unique overdubbing and an instantly memorable, soothing, and lilting musical style brilliantly juxtaposed with the rather heavy and tragic narrative that unfolds. Sarah McLachlan is an artist whose work seems to later heavily reflect these unique styles of overdubbing Joni first introduced. And of course Shades of Scarlett Conquering, another song with a complex, enticing and beautiful arrangement, again at odds with the vain, soul-devouring character she describes. Also The Boho Dance with it's elegant and instantly likable but comparatively simple arrangement - again with some rather complex lyrics typical of THOSL - I think actually the lyrics of THOSL are perhaps more complex than those of any other album (maybe DJRL ties) - not in any way meaning that obtuse lyrics are better - I don't believe they are - but there is obviously so much thought Joni gave to writing THOSL. All in all one her best albums - up there with Hejira - and the DED-CMIAR-NRH-TI-TTT period (which I love). On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 4:14 AM, Mark-Leon Thorne wrote: > I'm with you, Monika. I think it's a brilliantly poetic description > of Summer. What was Rolling Stone thinking? I actually think, The > Hissing of Summer Lawns is one of the all time great album titles. > > It is one of Joni's best. I don't see (or hear) a great leap in style > either. Just the fact that C&S had an accomplished band backing her > up, both albums have distinct jazz inflections to my ears. C&S had > some of Joni's best songs on it but THOSL was a stroke of genius as a > conceptual album. I think Joni's genius is recognised from her entire > body of work. Had she stopped after her first six albums, she > certainly would not be recognised as the jazz giant she is, only > someone who dabbled in it. It wasn't until DJRD and Hejira that she > really dove right in. > > THOSL is in my top five favourite Joni albums. I'd say even number > two, right after FTR. I see it as an important chapter of Joni's life > too. Part of the transition into jazz and essential stories to mull > over. > > The multi-layered story of Harry's House, the personal confessions on > Don't Interrupt The Sorrow, the sadness of the woman in Shades of > Scarlett Conquering, the lessons of our desire for youth on Sweet > Bird, the film noir atmosphere and the sadness of Edith and The > Kingpin, the sense of freedom of In France They Kiss On Main Street, > and the rest. > > THOSL is a journey through Joni's mind of the time and invaluable > lessons in the many facets of life and the characters that make up > this planet, presented in lush textures and aural cinemascope. > > Mark in Sydney > > NP Opus 4 (PFM Remix) - Art of Noise > > On 13/10/2008, at 6:00 PM, onlyJMDL Digest wrote: > > > As you may well know, we will never see eye to eye on the topic of > > THOSL so > > it is almost useless going back and forth trying to pass an idea > > here or there > > though I do enjoy the varying opinions. I will nod my head when > > you say we > > must agree to disagree. What more can be said? > > As for RS calling THOSL the worst album title of the year, well, > > their > > opinion on anything has been useless now for years. I would never > > turn to a > > magazine or a critic (or even another fan) to form my own opinion. > > I will say > > I do like to read the reviews and hear fans' opinions on different > > works. I > > particularly enjoy looking at Amazon.com (or reading opinions here > > as far as > > Joni is concerned). That is filled with regular people expressing > > their > > opinion with no agenda. I like to get an idea of what an album or > > book or > > whatever it is, is about before getting it for myself.. > > And as far as Dylan goes, I would stand by what you implied I > > said. Indeed, > > I would say Dylan is a good artist, not a great artist. Great > > songwriter. > > Good musician. Decent guitarist. Some great albums. Some good > > albums. Some > > shit albums. Not such a good singer but his voice is perfect for > > what he does > > so yes, good artist but not great artist (and I am a fan of Dylan's). > > - -Monika, who thinks THOSL was the perfect, fitting title for the > > album > - -- - -Mark in Florida ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:06:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: Joni's Woodstock on the cover channel?! Well, behind me my brother is watching/really more or less listening to the music channels on our cable tv. There is one channel that is called "cover to cover" which features cover songs only. For whatever reason, Joni's Woodstock (not the CSNY version which would be appropriate) came on--the original, studio version from 1970. This channel made a mistake man! I know it is trivial but still! Afterwards, there was some Radiohead cover which was appropriate for the station. It was some band COVERING Radiohead. It wasn't Radiohead doing a Radiohead song. - -Monika ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #201 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe