From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #192 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, October 5 2008 Volume 2008 : Number 192 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Early Friday Morning/From Bo [Mark-Leon Thorne ] UK Jonifest music to download [Dave Blackburn ] A very pretty picture of Joni [Monika Bogdanowicz ] Re: A very pretty picture of Joni ["Jamie Zubairi Home" ] Re: NO JONI CONTENT Early Friday Morning/From Bo [Kate Johnson ] Unraveling 'BLUE' [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: NO JONI CONTENT [Catherine McKay ] Re: 'MOA' Vs. 'THOSL' ;-) [Wtking59@cs.com] Re: Unraveling 'BLUE' [Bob Muller ] Re: 'MOA' Vs. 'THOSL' ;-) ["Mark Scott" ] Re: Favourite characters ["Mark Scott" ] Re: Subject: quirky? [Monika Bogdanowicz ] Re: 'MOA' Vs. 'THOSL' ;-) [Monika Bogdanowicz ] Roll Call ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Roll Call ["Mark Scott" ] Jim Johanson -- and the precious JMDL community [Patti Parlette ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 17:37:28 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Early Friday Morning/From Bo Bo, although I love to hear from you, do you think this is the place to discuss local politics. I am mildly interested in what is going on in your country but I can catch it on the news or the web. Stick to Joni, please. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 03:57:02 -0500 From: "T Peckham" Subject: Re: NO JONI CONTENT Early Friday Morning/From Bo So she forgot to put NJC in the subject line, and so there was some JMDL content at the end. We all make little mistakes, especially in this format. Also, there have been many many "local" politics posts here of late by several longtime listers---I guess they've all been labeled NJC, so perhaps you haven't gotten them. I'm new here and no doubt talking out of turn, but it just doesn't seem in keeping with the respect everyone here seems to hold for one another to call someone out for such a small thing. This election is literally a life-or-death one for many Americans, so emotions are running particularly high---kindly cut us a litle slack, wouldja? :-) Thanks. Terra On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 2:37 AM, Mark-Leon Thorne wrote: > Bo, although I love to hear from you, do you think this is the place to > discuss local politics. I am mildly interested in what is going on in your > country but I can catch it on the news or the web. > > Stick to Joni, please. > > Mark > - -- Note to any and all govt. agencies who might be looking in: You can kiss my sweet ass. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 11:21:36 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: NO JONI CONTENT Early Friday Morning/From Bo I would say it's a very important election for the world, not just for American citizens. Whoever becomes the president of the USA will have a major impact on all of us. Politics have been discussed here before, and like Mark, I do prefer to read about them somewhere else. The NJC does not always work, I am on the Onlyjoni and still get some of the NJC:s, don't know why. When I do, I know I can skip the content if I want to, and that's fine. We all know Bo as a very sensitive person who speaks what's in her heart. At this moment of time, it's politics. I am sure Mark did not intend to offend Bo in any way, and I am also sure that Bo will not mind putting the NJC in the subject line. We will all forgive her if she forgets it every now and then, won't we? Peace, Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr T Peckham Skickat: den 4 oktober 2008 10:57 Till: Mark-Leon Thorne; JMDL Dmne: Re: NO JONI CONTENT Early Friday Morning/From Bo So she forgot to put NJC in the subject line, and so there was some JMDL content at the end. We all make little mistakes, especially in this format. Also, there have been many many "local" politics posts here of late by several longtime listers---I guess they've all been labeled NJC, so perhaps you haven't gotten them. I'm new here and no doubt talking out of turn, but it just doesn't seem in keeping with the respect everyone here seems to hold for one another to call someone out for such a small thing. This election is literally a life-or-death one for many Americans, so emotions are running particularly high---kindly cut us a litle slack, wouldja? :-) Thanks. Terra On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 2:37 AM, Mark-Leon Thorne wrote: > Bo, although I love to hear from you, do you think this is the place to > discuss local politics. I am mildly interested in what is going on in your > country but I can catch it on the news or the web. > > Stick to Joni, please. > > Mark > - -- Note to any and all govt. agencies who might be looking in: You can kiss my sweet ass. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 08:06:51 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Jim Johanson In a message dated 10/4/2008 2:12:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, revrvl@gmail.com writes: > I invite everyone to read Mark Scott's post again and then answer this > question: Is there one other internet site/discussion list/anything that > matches the JMDL and joni.com - not just for other artists but for anything You're right Vince! I'm not sure about websites for anything, but Wally once sent me a music magazine that said JoniMitchell.com was the best internet site dedicated to a music artist. The magazine had interviewed Wally, and maybe Jim......I can't remember. I wish I still had that damn magazine, but I think I gave it to another lister. Jimmy ************** New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out! (http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000001) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 06:52:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Holycombe Music Dave and all, Here is my uploaded link for the Jonifest Music Dave has put together: https://www.yousendit.com/download/bVlBc2ZNNDI1aVkwTVE9PQ Bob NP: Todd Rundgren, "Panic" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 07:19:52 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: UK Jonifest music to download https://download.yousendit.com/R3owbGtITkFYSHp2Wmc9PQ https://www.yousendit.com/download/bVlBc2ZNNDI1aVkwTVE9PQ Here are two sources to grab the UK Jonifest recordings from. They are identical but the Yousendit bandwidth on each account will fill up quickly so if one doesn't work try the other. if there is yet more demand we'll try another route (hint: anyone have an FTP site we could post a 1GB file to for a couple of weeks?) cheers all Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 07:49:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: A very pretty picture of Joni http://malkamarom.com/interviews/facetoface.jpg That is what is currently my computer background. I would say a very pretty picture indeed. - -Monika ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 16:02:16 +0100 From: "Jamie Zubairi Home" Subject: Re: A very pretty picture of Joni It's a lovely photo. Very early. Joni in make-up! My goodness. Stunningly beautiful. 2008/10/4 Monika Bogdanowicz > http://malkamarom.com/interviews/facetoface.jpg > That is what is currently my computer background. I would say a very > pretty > picture indeed. > -Monika > - -- I am a lonely Painter I live in a Box of Paints I'm frightened by the devil But I'm drawn to those ones that 'aint afraid... Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at http://uk.voicespro.com/jamie.zubairi1 acting CV and showreel at http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 http://www.jamiezubairi.co.uk Facebook me! Everest Blog: http://jamiezubairi.blogspot.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 16:19:46 +0100 From: "joe farrell" Subject: re: jim johanson So sorry to hear of Jim's passing, may he rest in peace. i didn't know him, but then we all know him indirectly through this wonderful Joni site. condolences to all his family and friends. joe. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 09:09:01 -0600 From: Kate Johnson Subject: Re: NO JONI CONTENT Early Friday Morning/From Bo Terra, Perhaps because you are new here, you don't realize that the NJC tag is to help sort the mail between those who are interested in talking about subjects other than Joni. For me, who receives list posts one at a time, it's simple to delete posts that don't interest me without reading them, but for someone who receives the list posts via digest, it is a pain in the ass to have to scroll past them to get to the subjects that we signed up for. I don't think Mark was at all out of line to politely remind list members to add the NJC tag where appropriate, particularly since there have been a number of these sorts of posts lately and whoever has been posting them has absolutely already been cut some slack. Those who ignore the tagging convention are the ones who are being disrespectful, not the other way around. Kate of the North http://xoetc.antville.org Who Does She Think She Is? On 4-Oct-08, at 2:57 AM, T Peckham wrote: Also, there have been many many "local" politics posts here of late by several longtime listers---I guess they've all been labeled NJC, so perhaps you haven't gotten them. I'm new here and no doubt talking out of turn, but it just doesn't seem in keeping with the respect everyone here seems to hold for one another to call someone out for such a small thing. This election is literally a life-or-death one for many Americans, so emotions are running particularly high---kindly cut us a litle slack, wouldja? :-) Thanks. Terra ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 15:53:46 +0000 From: Michael Subject: RE: Favourite characters I, too, am saddened at Jim's passing. I did not know him personally, but we exchanged a few emails long ago and he was my first contact in this online Joni community. He did a great job of carrying the torch. To answer Mark's question, a reference to the woman who drowned herself, in Song for Sharon, is presented in Sheila Weller's book (p. 410). According to Weller, the woman in question may have been Jackson Browne's wife at the time, model Phyllis Major, who was also the mother of their 3-year old son. Apparently she died of a self-induced drug overdose in March of 1976. Weller does not offer any references for this supposition. Hejira came out in 1976. The timing seems very close, almost too close. In any event, it is a very sad story all around and I would rather not dwell on it. I am reminded that we must be thankful for the good in our lives, and try not to cross that line of dissatisfaction. Hey Mark, there's nothing wrong with morbid ! Morbid is OK. I say just embrace it, with all the rest. On that note, I think I'll go tuck in the summer garden for its long winter nap. Michael in Quebec Mark wrote: > Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 18:15:12 -0700 > From: mark.travis@gte.net > Subject: Re: Favourite characters > To: michael_quebec@hotmail.com; joni@smoe.org > > I've been thinking and thinking about this question. Michael, you > have just about answered it for me, though. These two characters are > indeed 2 of Joni's most intriguing to me. > > But there is one more that I have been hesitant to mention partly > because of some of the sad news we've had lately, partly because I > wonder if it reveals something morbid about my personality. > > This might be a question for Sharon as well. The woman who drowned > herself mentioned in 'Song For Sharon' has always been a big question > mark for me. Maybe this would not be something appropriate to ask > Sharon about. I would certainly not expect a name or too much > specific information. But I would like to know if this is a reference > to a real person and a real incident. The circumstances are perhaps > best left to speculation. Joni seemed to think so - 'She was just > shaking off futility or punishing somebody'. Guesses at most there, > emotions and abstractions. > > Mark in Seattle > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: 'Michael' > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 5:21 PM > Subject: Re: Favourite characters > > > > Well, here are two of my favourite Joni charcters : the heroine in > > Sunny > > Sunday - I love this story, apparently a true story, related to a > > woman living > > on the same street as a friend of Joni's. I just love the music and > > lyrics.I > > can relate to this character. Sometimes I feel just like her. > > > > My other favourite character is the narrator in Two Grey Rooms. A > > Fassbinder > > short story, I believe, further transformed by Joni's artistic > > sensibility. I > > love everything about this song. One of Joni's last great piano > > songs (if not > > THE last) until the appearance of Shine. > > > > Michael in Quebec > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 14:09:02 EDT From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Unraveling 'BLUE' So... what does anyone else know about this forthcoming book? Title: "Will You Take Me As I Am: Unraveling Joni Mitchell's 'Blue'" by Michelle Mercer (Release date: 4/7/09. Hardback, 256 pages) Here's the Amazon.com link to pre-order: "http://www.amazon.com/Will-You-Take-Unraveling-Mitchells/dp/1416559299/ref=sr _1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223143000&sr=1-1" XXXOOO, Billy NP: 'Nice Girls Don't Stay For Breakfast' (1967) by Julie London ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 12:28:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: NO JONI CONTENT - --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Kate Johnson wrote: > > Perhaps because you are new here, you don't realize > that the NJC tag > is to help sort the mail between those who are interested > in talking > about subjects other than Joni. Ironically, if you label the posts "No Joni Content" rather than "njc", they probably won't be filtered out, so people who want Joni-only will still get them. http://jmdl.com/jmdl.cfm __________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 16:10:34 EDT From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: 'MOA' Vs. 'THOSL' ;-) Monika wrote: >>> ('THOSL') is one of the best albums ever recorded (not to mention my favorite Joni album...followed closely by 'Blue') in my opinion. It is an album I very often listen to. "Harry's House" and "Sweet Bird" are two songs that I could not live without. <<< YES, Monika--I seem to recall your raving about "THOSL' on occasion. But I--and the majority of professional critics--beg to differ. Instead, I'd have to list "Blue,' 'FTR' and the incomparable 'CAS' (along with 'MOA,' of course) as not only her greatest triumphs, but several of the most important artistic achievements ever produced in popular music (and my own personal favorites). Monika again: >>> When YOU throw 'THOSL' on, you hear a "dated, artificial sound." When I throw it on, I hear a "fresh, welcoming, soothing sound." I also especially love Joni's vocals on the entire album. They are very crisp, cool, and breezy. <<< Really? I can't imagine. Well, first of all I don't usually "throw 'THOSL' on" (LOL). However, when I DO listen to it from time to time, I find it incredibly disappointing and depressing--as if she's seriously lost her way. Additionally, the canned, overly slick instrumentation often sounds fake and mechanical (as opposed to the natural and organic sound of 'CAS' and 'MOA'). Also, those occasional "cheesy" synthesizers are the absolute worst. And rather than warm, friendly and inviting, her voice now sounded cold, tense and detached (in fact, didn't Joni later mention in an interview that she felt there may have been a "certain tone" to her vocals which--in retrospect--may have turned people away from 'THOSL'?). In fact, almost the entire disc is little more than glittery surface sheen, with no meaningful substance (or "marrow") whatsoever. Also--and for the first time ever in Joni's illustrious career--her own persona began to reveal itself as desperate and trendy. For example, the lyrics to "In France They Kiss On Main Street" are downright hokey and embarrassing, and the tune is only partially saved by some pretty decent (albeit, slick) guitar work. Appropriately, the single flopped. Monika: >>> Though I DO enjoy 'MOA,' I'd choose 'THOSL' over it--hands down. <<< Again, I just can't imagine. Monika: >>> Although I can speculate why 'MOA' did so well on the charts yet does so poorly (or perhaps the correct statement would be why it does not do as well) on JMDL polls. This was the album following 'C&S.' 'C&S' hit it big and made Joni not only an artist but a star. She had always been an artist but her star power was at its greatest after 'C&S.' Since that particular album did so well on the charts, the people who were into 'C&S' decided to of course stick around and see what else Joni had to offer at the time. Now not all of them stuck around, because as with many hit albums, people tend to like the hit and nothing more (unless you are indeed a fan!). <<< Are you implying that 'CAS' is not as good as her other works because it was a HIT (or, conversely perhaps, that it was a hit because it wasn't as GOOD)? Either way, remember that 'THOSL' was also a considerable chart hit (immediately after which Joni's stock (i.e., chart positions) dropped like--to use her own words--"a lead balloon." IMO, 'CAS' and 'MOA' were hits because both were incredibly brilliant. The simple truth is that some hits are deserving, while others (like 'THOSL') are not. Monika: >>> Now on the polls, I'd speculate people just like other albums more--particularly other studio albums as most of the songs came from previous studio albums. That's all. No big reason behind it I think. Although I will say this about 'MOA,' which tends to put me in the minority as far as this version is concerned. I absolutely love the 'MOA' "Woodstock." I love the funky, jazzy, rocky rendition of it. I often read the word "dated" applied to that version but I love it. That is my story and I'm sticking to it. <<< I wonder, Monika: have you honestly given 'MOA' (particularly the HDCD "restored" edition) the chance it deserves? If so, I'm extremely curious to hear your own personal opinions about the "band" versions of "Rainy Night House" (which started this exchange), "The Last Time I Saw Richard" and "You Turn Me On, I'm A Radio?" Oh, and what about the "solo" versions of "A Case of You," "All I Want" and "Blue?" XXXOOO, Billy NP: 'Doc at the Radar Station' (1980) by Captain Beefheart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 14:55:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Unraveling 'BLUE' I know that the author, Michelle Mercer, was at the last Full Moon Jonifest, she's a big Joni fan and she's a big fan of Wayne SHorter as well and has written about him as well. She writes for NPR if I remember right. I'll bet this book is going to be a good one - says it comes out in April '09 so we have a wait yet. Good catch! Bob NP: The Swimming Pool Q's, "Stock Car Sin" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:18:12 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: 'MOA' Vs. 'THOSL' ;-) I think that 'Miles of Aisles' and 'The Hissing of Summer Lawns' caught some of the wind generated by the tremendous success of 'Court and Spark' and it helped push them both up the music charts. For me, 'MOA' was indeed a primer for some of the records that Joni had released before 'CAS'. 'CAS' was my first Joni Mitchell album. My parents gave me 'MOA' as a Christmas present that same year because they knew I was ga-ga for Joni (as I recall, my brother gave me 'THOSL' that same Christmas but I didn't tell him I had already bought it for myself - I gave one copy to a friend). I fell in love with the live versions on 'MOA' of many of those wonderful songs and began buying more of the back catalogue (at that point I think I had 'Clouds' and 'Ladies of the Canyon'). I don't remember if it was Monika or somebody else who speculated about this happening with some people but it was how I came to start my discovery of some of Joni's earlier work. 'MOA' was my introduction to a lot of pre-'CAS' Joni. Unlike Monika, however, the new arrangements that featured more of the LA Express were the least likeable for me. But for a long time I preferred the live versions of 'A Case of You', 'Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire', 'Woman of Heart and Mind', 'Blue', 'For Free' and several others to the studio versions on their respective albums. I think (as if thinking makes things so!) that 'Court and Spark' is a prime example of popular culture that rises to the level of great art. It also happened to fit the tastes of the record buying public at the time. In that respect, it was a fluke, in my opinion. Joni's development as an artist just happened to intersect with the cultural zeitgeist. That doesn't stop it from being beautiful and brilliant (like Jenny in 'Love Story' - just a little yoke). I think it remains a high point in Joni's career. But Joni was never content to be static and with 'THOSL' she kept moving forward. To say there is nothing but superficial sheen to this record, which I think is also brilliant, makes me wonder if the listener paid any attention at all to the lyrics, to begin with. They are some of Joni's most amazing, in my opinion. The record was difficult for me when I first began to familiarize myself with it because, I have to admit, it did not seem to have the warmth and emotion of the earlier works. It did seem to have a hard surface to it. But after many years and many, many listenings I have to rank it very high. I recently bought the HDCD version of the cd and am now in even greater awe of the complexity and grace of this record. Most of the songs were written in the third person and Joni's focus had shifted as her life and the times had changed. No more songs about people like Marcie in her coat of flowers buying candy and a bag of peaches. No characters like Trina, Annie and Estrella sewing, playing and baking brownies in Laurel Canyon. Now we have Edith squaring off with the big man in the small town and getting hooked on cocaine. We have Harry the businessman checking into a New York hotel and reflecting on the deteriorating relationship with his wife who told him today just what he could do with Harry's house and Harry's take-home pay. We have the insatiably greedy and needy Scarlett with her impossibly gentle hands and her bloodred fingernails. We have a woman trapped in a ranch house on a hill with a man's darkness to regret and other characters, scenarios and ruminations that no longer call for the soundtrack of a Bohemian lifestyle (we are no longer in the 'Boho Zone', but we do look back at it, briefly). The sophisticated, jazz-inflected arrangements are the appropriate settings for Joni's concepts on this record. So I maintain that all 3 of these records are brilliant in their own, unique ways. 'Court and Spark' is a serious work that just happened to be very accessible to the public of its time. 'Miles of Aisles' showcased an accomplished performer in top form giving beautifully executed live performances. 'The Hissing of Summer Lawns' gave us new facets of thought and creativity from this amazing genius as she continued to move forward in her art. And just a bit about 'Hejira' since Billy mentioned it in an earlier post. There was a time when I also thought 'Hejira' was too monochromatic and melodically repititious. Again, though, I have always thought the lyrics are undeniably brilliant. Not too long ago while I was re-exploring 'THOSL' I also started listening to 'Hejira' again. I re-visited the liner notes as well and was amazed at how few musicians were used on 'Hejira' to create what seems like a full and complex soundscape. This is another work of genius, a minimalist work that somehow also has amazing depth to it. But then I look at Joni's work as a kind of continuum. Each piece is an essential part of the whole for me so I can't just outright dismiss any one piece of it. It's all part of her journey and I signed on for the whole ride a long time ago. Does that make me a die-hard fan or what? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:38:25 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: Favourite characters - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael" > To answer Mark's question, a reference to the woman who drowned > herself, in > Song for Sharon, is presented in Sheila Weller's book (p. 410). > According to > Weller, the woman in question may have been Jackson Browne's wife at > the time, > model Phyllis Major, who was also the mother of their 3-year old > son. > Apparently she died of a self-induced drug overdose in March of > 1976. Weller > does not offer any references for this supposition. Hejira came out > in 1976. > The timing seems very close, almost too close. Hi Michael, I haven't read 'Girls Like Us' but have developed perhaps an unreasonable mistrust of it. I did read a couple of excerpts from it and was engrossed by what I read. But the fact that Joni had no participation or input in it makes me suspicious. As you pointed out, Weller does not offer any references for this particular supposition. So, to me, it makes it sound like speculation and hearsay. I have to wonder how much of the book is just that; speculation and hearsay. It struck me for the first time that the line 'the well was deep and muddy' is not meant to be taken literally. How many people who commit suicide throw themselves down a well anymore (or even in 1970s)? Now I have begun to think that the 'well' that was deep and muddy was the part of this woman's life or psyche that pushed her to that extreme. This is probably something almost every other fan of 'Hejira' caught on to a long time ago. I can be very thick-headed and slow sometimes. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:08:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: Re: Subject: quirky? Well, the problem with this discussion is that before you can discuss what "quirky" means, you have to decide what "normal" means. Is there such a thing as normal?" One could perhaps argue that Joni isn't quirky at all when it comes to being a musician. She's original, creative, artistic--what the stereotypical "normal" description of a musician might be, no? The again, we'd be getting too deep into that. Only on the JMDL would something as simple as the concept of what is quirky and what is not be discussed so thoroughly! I do enjoy this list! - -Monika - --- On Thu, 10/2/08, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: Examples of "quirky": * the free-form 'hi-yoodas' on the studio version of "Woodstock" * those weird chords in Eastern Rain * career turns like hiring jazzers to play during that brilliant middle period Jim L'Hommedieu np in the living room: "Spirit in the Sky" >To me it means unique, atypical, unexpected, original, individual, unusual, unpredictable - basically the opposite of normal> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 21:06:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: Re: 'MOA' Vs. 'THOSL' ;-) In reply.... - --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Wtking59@cs.com wrote: Billy: YES, Monika--I seem to recall your raving about "THOSL' on occasion. But I--and the majority of professional critics--beg to differ. Instead, I'd have to list "Blue,' 'FTR' and the incomparable 'CAS' (along with 'MOA,' of course) as not only her greatest triumphs, but several of the most important artistic achievements ever produced in popular music (and my own personal favorites). **Well, I wouldn't say that the majority of critics would agree with your assessment. I would say, at the time, perhaps the majority of critics agreed. I actually think THOSL has grown in its reputation. It certainly isn't a "Blue" but most definitely seems to get much more respect than it did at the time of its release judging by the reviews I read from the time. Also, what is a critic to me? I could not care less about what one critic says. I form my own opinion. Billy: Really? I can't imagine. Well, first of all I don't usually "throw 'THOSL' on" (LOL). However, when I DO listen to it from time to time, I find it incredibly disappointing and depressing--as if she's seriously lost her way. Additionally, the canned, overly slick instrumentation often sounds fake and mechanical (as opposed to the natural and organic sound of 'CAS' and 'MOA'). Also, those occasional "cheesy" synthesizers are the absolute worst. **Well, you know, I can't tell you that you are wrong in what YOU hear. Music is subjective. We will have to agree to disagree because when I listen to THOSL it sounds anything but fake and mechanical. It sounds inspiring, slick (I will agree with that but I use that as a compliment rather than an insult), and it has a very fascinating perspective. Joni steps into the role of storyteller/observer looking on the outside more than she ever had in the past. Rather than looking at herself (on the inside), she takes a look at a certain part of society. That is very intriguing to me. Billy: And rather than warm, friendly and inviting, her voice now sounded cold, tense and detached (in fact, didn't Joni later mention in an interview that she felt there may have been a "certain tone" to her vocals which--in retrospect--may have turned people away from 'THOSL'?). In fact, almost the entire disc is little more than glittery surface sheen, with no meaningful substance (or "marrow") whatsoever. **I'm not sure what Joni had said in an interview about her vocals but I particularly love her vocals on the album. I think they are some of the finest vocals in her career. I hear a cool tone.....when a cool, "outsider" tone is needed....I hear a welcoming tone...when a welcoming tone is required...etc etc. One of the first things that I loved about this album were indeed the vocals. Something about her singing on this album gets me, though I will admit I love Joni's voice in general. Joni's singing was the first thing that caught my attention when I got interested in her music. Oddly enough, lyrics/the writing was second, though of course now I enjoy the whole work but have favorite bits and pieces. Billy: Also--and for the first time ever in Joni's illustrious career--her own persona began to reveal itself as desperate and trendy. For example, the lyrics to "In France They Kiss On Main Street" are downright hokey and embarrassing, and the tune is only partially saved by some pretty decent (albeit, slick) guitar work. Appropriately, the single flopped. **Once again, we'll have to agree to disagree. I find IFTKOMS to be a very reflective, nostalgic look on when one could go out and "dance" to rock and roll music in some hip, trendy diner or place. It is a look on how so much has changed and almost a longing for a simpler time, where everything was as easy as going to enjoy one's self. As far as the music goes, I very much enjoy Joni's guitar as part of the intro. And I really don't find anything about Joni's persona at the time to be desperate or trendy. I can't even begin to say anything about finding anything to be desperate about Joni Mitchell or her music but I can say I'd say she is the opposite of trendy. If she was trying to be trendy, she'd be producing whatever was "hot" at the moment. Let's see, mid 70's, was disco catching on at that time yet? Elton John? Judging from Joni's career, I don't believe she ever was trendy or tried to do whatever was popular. I'd make an exception perhaps for a couple of albums in the 80's when she ventured into using synthesizers because they were new and popular. Billy: Are you implying that 'CAS' is not as good as her other works because it was a HIT (or, conversely perhaps, that it was a hit because it wasn't as GOOD)? Either way, remember that 'THOSL' was also a considerable chart hit (immediately after which Joni's stock (i.e., chart positions) dropped like--to use her own words--"a lead balloon." IMO, 'CAS' and 'MOA' were hits because both were incredibly brilliant. The simple truth is that some hits are deserving, while others (like 'THOSL') are not. **See now, you're getting into some risky territory because you can't state anything as the simple truth when it comes to music, art, literature, or anything when subjectivity comes into play. And I never said nor did I imply C&S is not as good because it was a hit. Oh no, not at all. I love C&S. It is truly a brilliant album and I would say it is Joni's most accessible album. That isn't an insult to her or her music. It is a fantastic album and it contains some of my favorite songs but to say one is more deserving than another, is really just an opinion. I find THOSL to be deserving of such an honor or Hejira or really, honestly most of Joni's work. So I wouldn't agree that Joni's albums didn't do as well on the charts after THOSL because THOSL wasn't as deserving or as good as the albums prior to it. I would argue that THOSL in particular or Hejira or DJRD just weren't as accessible as an album like C&S. Joni went on her, for lack of a better word, own artsy route. I would even say she continued on doing what she does best---paving a new way and moving forward. She wasn't going to make another Blue or another C&S any more than she was going to make another THOSL or Mingus. She always has been a very progressive artist looking for something new and going where her muse takes her. She takes art over commerciality. She takes her own vision over what the masses want her to be. If she had a hit song or album, I don't think it was ever because she was consciously STRIVING for that hit, it just happened coincidentally. Where she wanted to be and where fans wanted her to be happened to coincide. That is how I see it anyway. I don't mean to say she didn't *want* a hit and for a great number of people to like her music (what artist doesn't want to be liked?) but I don't think she consciously struggled to mold herself into what people believed her to be. She often left some behind when they weren't even ready. Billy: I wonder, Monika: have you honestly given 'MOA' (particularly the HDCD "restored" edition) the chance it deserves? If so, I'm extremely curious to hear your own personal opinions about the "band" versions of "Rainy Night House" (which started this exchange), "The Last Time I Saw Richard" and "You Turn Me On, I'm A Radio?" Oh, and what about the "solo" versions of "A Case of You," "All I Want" and "Blue?" **I haven't heard the HDCD version I don't think but honestly, that isn't going to make such a vast difference to me. I do like MOA, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't want to do without it. I very, very much enjoy Joni's stage banter throughout the entire concert. I just happen to like THOSL more because it my favorite album. One can only have one favorite album (or a couple favorites but anything more than that just means you're cheating!). As for MOA's Rainy Night House, I dig it. I like it more than the studio version. I love when Joni sings "soprano." I can do either or as far as You Turn Me On goes (the version or studio). I love Blue in any and every form and I very much enjoy A Case Of You and All I Want on MOA. I still have to say my favorite tracks from it are Woodstock and Big Yellow Taxi. I'm not even a big fan of the studio version of BYT but that version on MOA kills me. It just kills me and it begs me to press repeat every time I listen to it. I think what I most enjoy are Joni's vocals and the drumbeat. Another favorite of mine is Cactus Tree from MOA. It kills me too. So to sum it up, we shall have to agree to disagree! - -Monika ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 22:03:21 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Roll Call I'm wondering who on this list had Joni's first album when it was released. I did but I can't remember if it was me that bought it or my best friend. We used to listen to STAS & other albums for hours in her room. My friend & I are still in touch after all these years. Kate Next? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 22:27:33 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: Roll Call Funny that you should mention this, Kate, because I have been thinking that STAS was released 40 years ago. Alas, no, I did not buy it when it was released. In fact for a long time I thought 'Clouds' was Joni's first album. There was an instructor who taught an art class at the University I attended who loved Joni and used to play her albums during classes when we worked on our various projects. STAS was one of the records he played. That may have been when I first became aware of its existence. As a matter of fact, I just put it in my car cd player yesterday. It was raining when I got to the park and ride after work and I just had to hear 'Michael From Mountains'. STAS is timelessly beautiful, imo. One of my favorite records, period. So STAS turned 40 in March and Joni turns 65 next month. And this is also the last full year of the Bush administration. In spite of recent events, 2008 is quite an auspicious year! Mark in Seattle who has been rather prolific on the JMDL today and should probably shut up now - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate Bennett" To: Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 10:03 PM Subject: Roll Call > I'm wondering who on this list had Joni's first album when it was > released. > I did but I can't remember if it was me that bought it or my best > friend. > We used to listen to STAS & other albums for hours in her room. My > friend & > I are still in touch after all these years. Kate > > Next? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 05:40:20 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: Jim Johanson -- and the precious JMDL community Vince wrote: I invite everyone to read Mark Scott's post again and then answer this question: Is there one other internet site/discussion list/anything that matches the JMDL and joni.com - not just for other artists but for anything - - - what Wally, Jim, Les, and others created is as unique a web presence and community as there is. There is nothing like it. What they did was brilliant foresight that no one else has caught up tp yet. We are deeply blessed by their vision, their work, their dedication, their love, and their personalities of warmth, welcome, joy, and acceptance. There is nothing like the JMDL and Joni.com and we are blessed and honored and lucky that we have this wonderful karmic coming together which does all that the joni.comand jmdl do. There is nothing like it. We are heirs to so much. It humbles me when I think how lucky I am to be a participant hetr. ****** And now me, the chirp: Amen, brothers Vince and Mark! Blessed, indeed, and I hope we can all continue to offer each other our very best. Singing soprano in the upstairs choir (just 30 seconds): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQpYwEGS3tU&feature=related Yes, we have got a thing that's unique and new....and precious. Love is precious. It's a warm arrangement. Anyone will tell you.... I just got home from a peoples party (Oktoberfest), and I was talking about the JMDL. (Imaginez-vous!) One woman said: "Oh, I totally understand. I am on the Alice Cooper discussion list and it's so cool!" Well, I'm glad this person is happy with her list (we all come from such different sets of circumstance) , and I didn't want to get all snooty on her (you know, that's not my style), so I just smiled inside my heart and mind, knowing that what we have here is -- for lack of better words -- very special. We have a broader sensibility. We have JONI! Thank you, Wally and Jim. God rest ye, Joni gentlemen. LOVE, Patti P. P.S. Vince, you'll love my Circle Game son's Facebook status line: "Christopher is doubling as a crisis counselor today for all his Cub fan co-workers." NPIMH: Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together try to love one another right now. Right now! _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life togetherat home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 02:16:00 -0400 From: Vince Subject: Re: Roll Call I was very aware of the first album but did not get it. It was the second album that I bought first, based on a rave review from somewhere, and it took me a couple of plays to really get into it - and here I am all these years later. I bought all the next releases as they came out but never got the first album on vinyl, only as a cd when I was filling out my collection. It just does not have my heart the way so much of her other stuff does. Sorry. Vince On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 1:27 AM, Mark Scott wrote: > Funny that you should mention this, Kate, because I have been thinking that > STAS was released 40 years ago. Alas, no, I did not buy it when it was > released. In fact for a long time I thought 'Clouds' was Joni's first > album. There was an instructor who taught an art class at the University I > attended who loved Joni and used to play her albums during classes when we > worked on our various projects. STAS was one of the records he played. > That may have been when I first became aware of its existence. As a > matter of fact, I just put it in my car cd player yesterday. It was raining > when I got to the park and ride after work and I just had to hear 'Michael > From Mountains'. STAS is timelessly beautiful, imo. One of my favorite > records, period. > > So STAS turned 40 in March and Joni turns 65 next month. And this is also > the last full year of the Bush administration. In spite of recent events, > 2008 is quite an auspicious year! > > Mark in Seattle > who has been rather prolific on the JMDL today and should probably shut up > now > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kate Bennett" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 10:03 PM > Subject: Roll Call > > > > I'm wondering who on this list had Joni's first album when it was >> released. >> I did but I can't remember if it was me that bought it or my best friend. >> We used to listen to STAS & other albums for hours in her room. My friend >> & >> I are still in touch after all these years. Kate >> >> Next? ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #192 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe