From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #166 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, September 9 2008 Volume 2008 : Number 166 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- joni versus yoni [missblux@googlemail.com] RE: joni versus yoni [do9eatdo9@yahoo.com] Samaritan [Laura Stanley ] Re: Joni Covers, Volume 104 - [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Joni Covers, Volume 104 - [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Fiddle and Drum plus 4, and Joni attends [Monika Bogdanowicz ] Southern California Jonifest 09? [Dave Blackburn ] The FTR-Fag connection ["Christopher Treacy" ] Kate's dragonfly and Joni's garden [Patti Parlette ] nonexistent gay music, 2.0 [Vince ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:13:46 +0200 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: joni versus yoni Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 04:12:56 +0700 From: do9eatdo9@yahoo.com Rian said "Subject: Yikes!!! In Sanskrit 'Joni' means 'vagina'" No Rian it's yoni, big difference (like the one between yellow and jello, yoke and joke)! And whats the yikes in the subject-line about, huh?? Bene ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 19:19:44 +0700 From: do9eatdo9@yahoo.com Subject: RE: joni versus yoni O! YES! I forgot that the book i read (where i found the word 'joni') is an old book, published before 1960s, where j was pronounced y. Ah, it's Indonesian-language-thing. It'll be boring if i explain that. Anyway, of course it's 'yikes!'. Let's take a simple example: what would happen to you if you find out that your name (Bene) in (let's say) Burmese means 'penis'. I bet you'd say 'yikes' or 'O MY GOD!' Or perhaps... You'd say 'oooo... I lllove that'? Thanks for the correction, Bene. Safe and sound, Rian. Still in the office. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 05:22:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Laura Stanley Subject: Samaritan I hadn't heard this before. I'll be hearing it again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GIkPBt2z3U&feature=related ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 15:05:53 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Covers, Volume 104 - Hi Bob, I wanted to thank you for another fine covers album. You sure do start off with a bang on this one. > 1. Chaka KhanB - Ladies Man No need to mention Chaka. I got the album when Shine came out. She rocks! > 2. Brian Sklar b Big Yellow Taxi I used to be really into country music, and to here BYT done like this is awsome! > 3. Paradox b Both Sides Now > 4. Paradox b Both Sides Now (Remix/Chinese) I definitely like the remix better. Like you, I enjoy hearing Joni songs in other languages. > 5. Mastaman b This Flight Tonight I haven't heard this song done like that. It reminds me of when I used to go to circuit parties and dance in to the wee hours. Oh that trance music brings back some memories. > 6. Mindy Gledhill - Both Sides Now There's something unique in Mindy's voice, well unique compared to most of the women who sing BSN. I don't know if it's like a Sheryl Crow or someone contemporary. > > 9. Paul Anka - Both Sides Now Where did this pop up from? Is this recent? I never was much of a Paul Anka fan, but he sings BSN like anything he sings. > 10. The Chief Whips b Big Yellow Taxi AWFUL!!!! > 11. Al Pillay b Both Sides Now At first listen, I thought this guy is a drag queen. After googling him, I see that I was right. Apparently he's famous around the world. This is a good cheesy version of BSN. I'd just kill to see him perform it. > 18. Cor Musters b Both Sides Now Fantastic guitar playing. Now that's one hell of great instrumental version of BSN! > 19. Orla Murphy b Be Cool I like Orla's version better than Joni's. What a great jazz singer, and I'm sure she's related to Smurph. Thanks again for all your hard work! Jimmy ************** Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 15:27:46 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni Covers, Volume 104 - Thanks Jimmy - I still have to post my "review" of 104 - was hoping to this weekend but just didn't get around to it. Thanks for your thoughts and glad that you found much to dig. Bob NP: The Refreshments, "Girly" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 13:09:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: Re: Fiddle and Drum plus 4, and Joni attends I'm so jealous of everyone who attended (and met Joni)! However, thank you for sharing your stories. I'm glad you all had a wonderful time. - -Monika ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 13:25:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: Re: 100 Greatest, Gayest Albums I particularly like what was written in this review. Just this very morning, for whatever reason, I had a lightbulb go off in my head while I was listening to FTR on my way to work. It came to me that I love Joni's music so much because it is so unfiltered...so real. I mean, everything is put out there in the music for you to take (or leave if you so wish). In addition, with the risk of sounding corny, no matter what emotion you are feeling, there is a Joni song or album that you can relate to and know you are not alone in that feeling. You dig? - -Mon - --- On Sun, 9/7/08, Mark Angelo wrote: "One of the reasons Miss Mitchell is able to produce works of merit so consistently is her willingness to explore and then honestly reveal - rather than soften, filter or glamorize - her emotions and experiences, both the joys and, more importantly, the sorrows ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 13:49:19 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Southern California Jonifest 09? Greetings all, After experiencing the fabulous pleasures of Lucy Hone's UK Jonifest last month I am making tiny tentative steps towards trying to organize one where Robin and I live in north San Diego county, California. Basically my starting point is to get an idea of how many people would want to attend something like this so my quest for a location would at least have that parameter figured out. If this sounds like something you would attend next summer please email me offlist and I'll start putting an initial list together. When/where/ how much is still far off so don't ask me for that info yet. I'm not sure if I have the courage to do what Lucy did vis a vis cooking but having the evening meal catered plus some hired help in cleaning up are possibilities. taking a deep breath, Dave ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 15:31:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Southern California Jonifest 09? Is there a limit as to how many Jonifests one can attend in a given year. I think not - I would be in for this one. Bob NP: The Reivers, "Walking The Cow" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 23:04:22 -0400 From: "Christopher Treacy" Subject: The FTR-Fag connection Had to chime in here. I guess I never really gave this much thought. I mean, to me, something like Bette's "The Divine Miss M" (or even Manilow's debut for that matter) has a decidedly gay feel .but that's likely because of existing associations that I merely absorbed. Something about the smoldering delivery of "Do You Wanna Dance" juxtaposed against the loneliness of Prine's "Hello In There," the desperation of "Superstar," piano bar crooning in "Am I Blue," etc.gay to the gills. But now that it's come up for debate, FTR does stand out as a particularly poignant CD for me, in part because I listened to it so much when I was coming out (before I went back in for a while.halfway, lol). I remember reading the Rolling Stone review on microfilm at the library - "Joni's For the Roses is Good for a Hole in Your Heart" was the headline, and I think that summation stuck with me - it was as if I knew where to go for solace upon realizing I was gay (thanks to RS, ironically), since I do believe it felt much like having a hold in my heart.no longer being sure that I'd find someone to share my life with, that the path would likely be bumpy, irregular, fraught with difficulty. So, if "Blue" has the makings of a breakup album (with a few flings peppered in to keep it spicy), FTR is the 'what have we learned?' pick-up-the-pieces-and-move-on set. It denotes a largely solitary experience - how to cope once the worst has happened - 'with a good dog and some trees, out of touch with the breakdown of this century'. "Lesson in Survival" contrasted with "Let the Wind Carry Me" - looking at the evolution of one's personality, from the teenage rebellion years onward, and how that impacts (complicates) romance. And it ends with the big Ludwig pep-talk.a preparation to 'shake your fists at lightening now' as you march onward, knowing it will be difficult. Coming of age for gay men (and I'm sure for women as well, although I really can only speak from my own gender experience), one feels as though they're 'up against' something from the very get-go..a battle is taking place. It's a really edgy place to be. I think that's why gay men relate so strongly to strong, ballsy women in history - it's that whole 'up against' thing, and the fact that women who 'come out booming' are a source or vision of strength in adversity. Interestingly, a local (Boston) gay songwriter I know, Brian King, used the refrain from "See You Sometime" in a song of his - I can't remember the name of it, but it struck me HARD the first time I heard it, and not just because of the Joni reference, but also the way it was used.the song was about coming home after a night out at the bar, looking at chiseled, attractive men and feeling hopelessly less-than. It was heartbreaking. And in the song, the protagonist puts on "For the Roses" to comfort himself after the experience (enter the refrain). I haven't kept up very well with reading my digests, so I don't know if Sarah McLachlan's "Touch" made the original list. but that album always SCREAMED gay at me. I recently purchased it on 180g vinyl and was blown away by the flood of memories it brought. I'll always argue for Sarah's talent, but none of the records she's made since have rung as true with me, emotionally speaking. Edie Brickell's "Shooting Rubber bands at the Stars" is another standout 'gay' album for me, though not nearly as high impact as "Touch." After "For the Roses," Joni changed.and I think mostly it was for the better - - the FTR through S&L period is unendingly interesting to me. But she's never been that vulnerable again.chalk it up to cocaine use, stardom (and the ensuing arc, bitterness, etc) - turning 30, becoming more of a realist. I dunno, it's as if making FTR toughened/hardened her or forced her to 'suck it up' in some way. Maybe she couldn't handle sounding so shrill any longer.who knows. Thought-provoking discussion.. Cheers, Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 03:26:59 +0000 From: Patti Parlette Subject: Kate's dragonfly and Joni's garden Anita, who touches my soul with her every post, wrote: I really loved your care for the injured dragonfly, Kate. Small acts of love like yours help me feel very happy. ***** I'll second that emotion. Good on you, Kate! A lovely quote I just received, in some nice synchronicity: "The scope of selfless service is not limited to great gestures, heroic acts, and huge donations to public institutions. They also serve who express their love in little things. A word that gives courage to a broken heart or a smile that brings hope in the midst of gloom has as much claim to be regarded as service as difficult sacrifices and heroic self-denials. A glance that wipes out bitterness from the heart is also service, although there may be no thought of service in it. When taken by themselves, all these things seem to be small, but life is made up of such small things. If these small things were ignored, life would be not only unbeautiful but unbearable" -- Meher Baba Well some say it's in service (like community organizing?) They say "humble makes pure"... Love, Patti P., anxious over the latest polls ("I worry sometimes") (Hi Deb!) _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 23:37:29 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Southern California Jonifest 09? hey dave, i would definitely be interested. i have some possible west coast plans for next summer that may complicate matters, but if i can do both, i will. patrick - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Dave Blackburn Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 4:49 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Southern California Jonifest 09? Greetings all, After experiencing the fabulous pleasures of Lucy Hone's UK Jonifest last month I am making tiny tentative steps towards trying to organize one where Robin and I live in north San Diego county, California. Basically my starting point is to get an idea of how many people would want to attend something like this so my quest for a location would at least have that parameter figured out. If this sounds like something you would attend next summer please email me offlist and I'll start putting an initial list together. When/where/ how much is still far off so don't ask me for that info yet. I'm not sure if I have the courage to do what Lucy did vis a vis cooking but having the evening meal catered plus some hired help in cleaning up are possibilities. taking a deep breath, Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 00:38:18 -0400 From: Vince Subject: Re: The non-existent FTR-gay connection (there is no such thing as gay music) It has been an interesting discussion which I have been reading. I thought the explanation on what makes music "gay" was very well written and explained. (I forget now who wrote it.) I just don't agree with it. As I read that list of 100 songs/albums whatever, I was in the 50s before I got to one that I owned and I maybe have 5-6 in the whole list of 100, all bottom 50, and Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club band? Excuse the language, but give me a fucking break. The puzzles me almost as much as FTR and almost all of the other choices. The explanation given on what makes a song gay works for me if we are talking Streisand's version of West Side Story's "There's a place for us." That one gets me every time. But song only expresses something I feel, my own personal life interpretation, not a label I would put on a song written abouts Sharks and Jets and Maria and Tony and Puerto Ricans and Poles, all of which makes it universal -- and that is the key - universal. That is the genius of Sondheim's lyrics and Bernstein's music. Universal. I don't think that gays own any corner on suffering, difficulties with life, and emotions. If we want to talk about the pain of the gay experience I'll do that all day. But the angst of human experience? That's not a gay thing. Coming out and life painfully difficult for gays? Yes. Unique? Yes - but also universal. And hardly the worst thing in human history, despite the drama. I'll take a gay in America experience any time over, say, for example, that of an Indian young woman sold into marriage. Or an Iraqi child at the moment. The suffering of heterosexual males for females has been almost the entire fuel of rock and roll... and opera... and every other form of musical expression. Of the rest, some is religious, some is this, some is that, some is about getting by with the help of my friends and the fact that She's Leaving Home, but the universality in it all is what makes it precisely universal. Joni's FTR, the album, is a relentless and brilliant expression of an avidly heterosexual woman for a man/men that have done her wrong - another great theme of music, which just about covers the remainder of what I did not name above. There is not gay thing about it. One might bring one's own personal experience and find it in the music, but that does not make it the theme, or make the music "gay" or "Canadian" or "folk music by a blond hippie" or CSN&Y/James Taylor related (is it sad that I forget which male/males Joni was angry at?/ The actual song FTR is one of the most slashing angry attacks on a faithless lover ever - and a female angry at a faithless male - and the brilliance of the relentless music combined with the lyrics sears the memory and fixes it as a great song about love and its pain. I am going to sue the word brilliant again, but it is - its like the greatest of opera - - you'd don't need to know the words or the language even to know what the song is about and to catch the emotion. I've listened to Aida and hear the whole gay experience, of being torn for the love of the person you do love and its painful consequences for everyone - perfectly aware that Verdi was as hetero as it gets and the opera is about an Egyptian general, a male, and an Ethiopian slave/captive/princess, a female. Its just so well expresses the pain of consequences of love that a particular can be found - but then so many particulars can. I always try to be aware of the danger of making the personal into a universal - because I love Streisand does not mean that everyone born in Chicago will love Steisand, for example. Not every male who loves Joni Mitchell is gay. (That statement may stun, but, 'tis true.) There is not a Midler DNA that makes all gays love Bette or makes even a majority of Bette's fan gay. David Bowie - gay icon? I remember his fascist day, the brown shirts and all. He has had as many personnas as any human being alive. Some of his music is good. Some great. Some great only in the minds of his devotees. Some of it sucks. I don't think any of it is gay. or straight. Just - music in which we can find what we want, depending on whether we like it or not, or whether it speaks to us. Some of us can hear the gay experience in Eminem. Some will once again clutch their hearts because I said that. But you want to talk about being being rejected by society, Eminem covers all your bases. He also expresses a Detroit experience, a loving father's experience (I get choked up by Hailey's Sing ever time and the reoccuring line in his albums: Daddy will never leave you, daddy is here, Daddy is always here, and, to my pain I discovered I was not sometimes here, my daughter, and the pain I feel because I love you so much) is so parent/child specific (and because I decided that when I sing along, to make it grandparent/grandchild specific...) that the universal becomes parenthood. And amazingly to me, a whole lot of people (but not any who listen to rap) have missed the Eminem theme of universal parental love. We hear what we want to hear or need to hear. When the film of noted hetero Ingmar Bergman was made by Sondheim (gay or straight, I think straight but who the hell cares) into repetitious hetero Elizabeth Taylor singing Send in the clowns to who, Lou Cariou? we are hearing the incredible lament of straight people in love. I hear something else, I hear the expression of a past relationship, but I also hear that in True Love Ways (and Buddy Holly never meant it that way) and in Tim Hardin's (Rod Stewart's?) Reason to Believe: "If I listened long enough to you I'd find a way to believe that it's all true knowing that you lied straight-faced while I cried still I look to find a reason to believe" but is because of who I picture doing the lying. So there is my top 3 songs for the list, but no one else's. No song is gay. Or love. Songs about love are universal and we apply them as needed. A final note: and this is not for the author of the post that I adapted it from, that is just a device I am using: I don't use the word fag because I don't think the word nigger should be reclaimed either. And no song is gay. This will, get me into trouble but I have real problems with some gay folk deciding they can declare "gay" anything they wish to appropriate. Do it for you own selves, but no one speaks for the community and no one, however gay, or straight, can ghettoize music. We will all be better off when people stop thinking that their own experience is all encompassing and instead care a whole lot more for the universal experience. Gays claiming things as gay always remind me of the the young males on gay message boards who just know, just know, just know, that Leonardo diCaprio (or any white male who is under 25 who has ever made a movie) is really a huge gay boy because their "gaydar" goes off. That's ain't you gaydar that is going off, boys. And no matter how much anyone one wants to claim it s mine, all mine. FTR is not gay. No music is gay. Music has no gender. It is brilliantly universal. That it speaks to all is the power of the music, not because some people decide that their experience trumps the experience of the whole rest of the world. "People try to put is down" is really about the summertime blues that we all feel, it is not a gay anthem, although it might be a brilliant overdub in a movie about Stonewall. Music has neither cock nor vagina, it has both, it has none, it has no gender, it does have sex but that is universally human, it has no orientation other than human, it has what we need it to have at where ever we are on life's journey and what we need to get by. By the way, God has neither cock or balls nor gender either. And people confuse the hell out of that too. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:40:13 -0700 From: "Cassy" Subject: Re: Southern California Jonifest 09? From: Dave Blackburn <<< If this sounds like something you would attend next summer please email me offlist and I'll start putting an initial list together. >>> I would definitely be up for a West-Coast Jonifest in 09 Cassy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 00:48:52 -0400 From: Vince Subject: nonexistent gay music, 2.0 Ths is NJC but I intentionally leave off the NJC tag. I just posted my brilliant thoughts (brilliant being my overused word of the evening)... when I was teaching step aerobics tonight, at the culmination of my best! routine! ever! with the largest! class! I! ever! had! and they were happy! loving it! and I was at my! teaching! best!... I proceeded to kick over my step like the biggest amateur ever... although I lied and told them I did it just so they wouldn't feel bad when they did it... I did not err, it was a cheap trick (musical pun) to see if anyone was reading all te way to the end when I ended with the big quote of "people try to put us down" and said that was from Summertime Blues... I know it is My Generation.... just wanted to see if anyone would catch the error... ever see the error just as you hit "send" ?????? Vince, who still hopes he dies before he gets old even though there ain't no cure for the summertime blues ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #166 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe