From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #104 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, July 11 2008 Volume 2008 : Number 104 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Some comments ["Marion Leffler" ] Re: Joni the confessional songwriter? ["T Peckham" ] Re: Joni the confessional songwriter? [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Joni the confessional songwriter? [Happy The Man ] Re: DED [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: JMDL #127 Joni Mondegreens [David Sapp ] Re: JMDL #127 Joni Mondegreens [Catherine McKay ] Re: JMDL #127 Joni Mondegreens ["Mark Scott" ] RE: Joni the confessional songwriter? Long-winded ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: The Music of Joni Mitchell [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Joni the confessional songwriter? Long-winded [Garret Subject: Some comments Hi Joni people! I've been missing you all during my computerless vacation in Germany, and now I am trying to catch up. Loved the discussion about Furry and the article by Chuck! Pattie, your account of your son's wedding was so moving, it brought tears to my eyes. Really! Maybe that was in anticipation since my youngest son might soon want to tie the knot with his girlfriend:-) But seriously, have you ever considered writing a column for some magazine? Monika asked what cd to begin with to get acquainted with Leonard Cohen's music, and since I have listened to him from the beginning and all through my life I feel I can give you some advice. Actually, you might just as well try one of "the best of Leonard Cohen" releases or "The Essential Leonard Cohen", for unlike Joni, Leonard did not go through any radical musical or lyrical changes. You could also start at the beginning with "The songs of Leonard Cohen" and then leap to "I'm your man" and they would both give you a good idea of Cohen's music and lyrics. I think you will like him! Tell us about your impressions, please, I'd love to know what you think! I am also thinking about your latest question, why Joni does not want the title of confessional songwriter anymore. Maybe it's because she turned outward and now thinks that confessional is equal to private and therefore less relevant? Before I went to Germany my email server malfunctioned so I don't know if my thanks to Dave for enlightening me on the subject of copyrights got through. If not, thanks again, Dave! Got to continue reading my mail now. Hope you all have a great summer! Marion ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 05:49:40 -0500 From: "T Peckham" Subject: Re: Joni the confessional songwriter? My initial thought is that when one gains perspective--or has it thrust upon them!--as one ages, it's quite natural to reflect on the past and how one has grown and changed (or hasn't). In the case of an artist like Joni, it's an occupational hazard, since self-awareness and self-examination inform so much of her work. But from the start, she has also always turned an equally scrutinizing eye and ear to the people and the world around her, and has proven herself not only an astute chronicler of the times but an eerily prescient one at that. She also remains, at her core, a person who is intellectually (and perhaps spiritually) restless, a person who has constantly pursued knowledge and meaning and personal evolution thru her art more than anything else, for whom decades-old characterizations must be painful. And finally, like many artists, I suspect she rejects labels of (almost) any kind, because they're often reflective of only a brief moment in a long career, and usually bestowed by journalists (and record company marketing staff) in search of easy categorization. Just my impression--and there may be more . . . ;-) Terra On 7/9/08, Monika Bogdanowicz wrote: > > . . . Well, back in the day (70's or so) Joni basically nodded in agreement > that > she was a confessional songwriter, particularly during Blue. I've read > interviews where she's down with that title. How come more recently, say > nowadays, she shuns the title? In one of her most recent interviews she > said > she was never a confessional songwriter--that confessional songwriting is > like > saying, "ooh I need to confess this, forgive me." That isn't word for word > what she said but it is along the same lines. Anyway, my question to you > is, > why does Joni reject that idea now? > -Mon > - -- Note to any and all govt. agencies who might be looking in: You can kiss my sweet ass. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:23:30 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: The Boy on The Circle Game Joni may have changed the age by the time she came to record the song, The Circle Game. Therefore, it may be safe to use the year 1970, Rian. I think it's well established now that the "boy" in the song is Neil Young. She has discussed it before. Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:01:04 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni the confessional songwriter? I would say that's right on the money, Terra. There are those who insist on calling her a "folksinger" no matter what, even though exactly NONE of her albums fit that description in my opinion. To use her description of herself as a painter, I think she would be more amenable to being told that musically she paints landscapes, portraits, and self-portraits. Bob NP: Iggy Pop, "Hate" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:19:30 -0500 From: Happy The Man Subject: Re: Joni the confessional songwriter? I remember when she talked about the Socratic Society (just remember I think being the Just Ice taping, though that is not the name of the show) and that a label would put her in one class of people (aka musician - painter). I would imagine that none of us would like to wear just one label. Nothing frustrated me more then when I was a minister in a very conservative/fundamentalist church that people would assume that I was a /hawk right militant/, nobody new my history, nobody new what brought me to that place, and yet they assumed. I'm would think Joni like all of us likes to listen to the flow of things around her at the time, and in that finds her muse. Maybe, probably that's why I listen to her more then anyone she didn't grab on to a genre and stick with it trying to sell more records but not listening to herself, being herself. So all that to say, yeah I agree with Bob :). Peace, Craig NP: Joni - DED (okay not on the pod or the deck or the cd but in my head which will require another post) Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > any > kind, because they're often reflective of only a brief moment in a long > career, and usually bestowed by journalists (and record company marketing > staff) in search of easy categorization.> > > I would say that's right on the money, Terra. There are those who insist > on calling her a "folksinger" no matter what, even though exactly NONE of > her albums fit that description in my opinion. > > To use her description of herself as a painter, I think she would be more > amenable to being told that musically she paints landscapes, portraits, > and self-portraits. > > Bob > > NP: Iggy Pop, "Hate" > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The information transmitted is intended only for the person > or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:25:38 -0500 From: Happy The Man Subject: DED This album rocks my world (good 80's term). I've found myself listening to it more now, trying to not to be a pessimist. But I would like to hear responses on does this album some 23 years later speak to you more now then it did when it was release? Change the name.... Ethiopia with _________? Just wondering? I've got a flight to catch for the fourth day in a row...shit...shit... Peace, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:34:26 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: DED Sudan, though it wouldn't scan as well. Bob NP: Sonic Youth, "Radical Adults Lick Godhead Style" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:43:12 -0700 (PDT) From: David Sapp Subject: Re: JMDL #127 Joni Mondegreens My longest running one, meaning decades, was from Coyote: instead of -- you're up early on your ranch... I always heard -- you're a girly on your ranch. It never made sense because I knew Coyote was a man... LOL! ... signing off for now, Peace, David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 10:35:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL #127 Joni Mondegreens Maybe he was brushing out a brood mare's tail wearing a push-up brassiere, a tight dress and a rhinestone ring. - --- On Thu, 7/10/08, David Sapp wrote: From: David Sapp Subject: Re: JMDL #127 Joni Mondegreens To: "joni list" Received: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 12:43 PM My longest running one, meaning decades, was from Coyote: instead of -- you're up early on your ranch... I always heard -- you're a girly on your ranch. It never made sense because I knew Coyote was a man... LOL! ... signing off for now, Peace, David __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:13:50 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: JMDL #127 Joni Mondegreens Mine is from 'People's Parties': Cry for Livvy in the corner thinking there's nobody Mark in Seattle - ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Sapp" To: "joni list" Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 9:43 AM Subject: Re: JMDL #127 Joni Mondegreens > My longest running one, meaning decades, was from Coyote: > > instead of -- you're up early on your ranch... I always heard -- > you're a girly on your ranch. > > It never made sense because I knew Coyote was a man... LOL! > > ... signing off for now, > Peace, David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:17:08 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Joni the confessional songwriter? Long-winded I am in the middle of Lloyd Whitesell's book, and he does a really great job identifying the different types of poetic speakers Joni employs. Now, since I'm a literary critic and poet by vocation, I think I'm in a position to judge the quality of his discussions of the poetry, and since I'm a musician by avocation, I can follow his discussion of the musical examples. But it strikes me that what is truly wonderful about the book is the way that he meshes musical and literary analysis. Because they are inseparable. In any event, I recommend _The Music of Joni Mitchell_ highly. This has a lot to do with my two cents on the confessional question, since much of my scholarly work is on the generation of poets who were defined as confessional poets, including Robert Lowell, whose book _Life Studies_ (1959) inspired M.L. Rosenthal to coin the term "confessional poetry." None of the poets deemed confessional (like Lowell's student Sylvia Plath) considered themselves "confessional." When asked how he reacted to being termed a "confessional poet," John Berryman answered, "With rage and contempt!" Elizabeth Bishop told Time magazine about her friends' poetry "Sometimes, you wish they'd keep some of these things to themselves." What these American poets are reacting to is the reductiveness of the term. I prefer the term "autobiographical lyric" which identifies the type of poem rather than the type of poet. Joni's work can't be pigeonholed. She rejects the label because it is inaccurate. Sure, it sticks, just like folksinger. But "confessional" is a troublesome and inaccurate adjective whether applied to poetry or songs. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 15:37:07 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: RE: Joni the confessional songwriter? Long-winded I bought my copy today after I read your first post. Looking forward to diving into it. Bob NP: Beck, "Sunday Sun" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:07:04 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: The Music of Joni Mitchell >I bought my copy today after I read your first post. Anyone considering buying it from Amazon? If so, please click through to Amazon using the link at http://JoniMitchell.com to help support the websites as well! Thanks, Les ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 16:21:42 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: The Music of Joni Mitchell Thanks Les - I did do that (purchase through the link on JM.com) and should have mentioned it when I wrote my original post, so you'll get a couple of coins out of my purchase - anytime I can give back even a little to you I like to do it! Bob NP: Amy Correia, "Chinatown" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 21:41:52 +0100 From: Garret Subject: Re: Joni the confessional songwriter? Long-winded I was happy to read your recommendation Richard. There was a time when i would have rushed out and bought this book, but now i want to be sort of sure that it's worth it. One of the Joni books (can't remember which one) was awful and it really turned me off wanting to read anything of the sort - about any artists. GARRET On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 8:37 PM, wrote: > event, I recommend _The Music of Joni Mitchell_ highly.> > > I bought my copy today after I read your first post. Looking forward to > diving into it. > > Bob > > NP: Beck, "Sunday Sun" > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The information transmitted is intended only for the person > or entity to which it is addressed and may contain > proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. > If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are > hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, > distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon > this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please > contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual > sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. > ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 19:51:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: RE: Joni the confessional songwriter? Long-winded You're absolutely right. You can't label Joni as this or that (unless you "label" her as brilliant!) but in more recent interviews she seemed to reject the notion that she ever was a confessional songwriter. Perhaps that is not what she meant or I simply misunderstood. Or maybe she's so tired of that term that she just tries to reject it completely now to dissuade anyone from reeferring to her as that. Afterall, any "confessional" album she recorded (Blue and such) was recorded 30+ years ago. - -Monika, working 10/08, Richard Flynn wrote: Joni's work can't be pigeonholed. She rejects the label because it is inaccurate. Sure, it sticks, just like folksinger. But "confessional" is a troublesome and inaccurate adjective whether applied to poetry or songs. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #104 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe