From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #82 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, June 19 2008 Volume 2008 : Number 082 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- SV: SV: Retro Joni Covers, Volume 27 ["Marion Leffler" ] Re: Covers and copyrights [Jerry Notaro ] words or music first? [Michel BYRNE ] Music. [johncalimee@verizon.net] Re: Early Joni, 1966-1968 Disc 2 ["Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: SV: SV: Retro Joni Covers, Volume 27 Thank you, Bob, for your informative reply! I do agree with what you say about the difficulties of translating lyrics, and I imagine that it is hard to check if they violate copyrights or not. There obviously are limits to what you are allowed to do, which the case of George Harrison was proof of. He was fined for using the music of Hes so fine for his My sweet lord. But then, I think, he was fined for not having assured himself of a copyright for the music, not for changing the text. So I still wonder about the conditions for doing a cover of a song and translating the lyrics alternatively writing different lyrics. If noone here knows I will try to find out during my upcoming vacation. Marion _____ Fren: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com [mailto:Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Skickat: den 17 juni 2008 15:09 Till: Marion Leffler Kopia: 'JMDL' Dmne: Re: SV: Retro Joni Covers, Volume 27 Hi Marion, and thanks for your interest. Re-running these older volumes really brings back memories for me, that's for sure. To answer your question concerning dates: Lill Lindfor's cover/re-imagining of "Carey" is from 1984 Turid's "I Had A King" is from 1973 Hanne Boel's "How Can You Stop" is from 1998 As far as your question about changing the words and calling it a cover, it's a good question and I know next to nothing about copyright laws. There are certainly many cases of artists doing major word switches though, from Weird Al Yankovic (and he had to get permission to do all of his parodies) to George Harrison (who got caught putting his own text to "He's So Fine"). I would imagine that it's a particularly difficult task to re-cast a song in another language and probably fairly common that lyrically they tend to spin in other directions, making key words rhyme and scanning the original melody properly. Thanks for the insights into the translations - I always enjoy hearing Joni's songs sung in a foreign tongue even when I'm clueless as to what is being said. And yes Jerry, that includes all of the WONDERFUL Asian covers of BSN & TCG. Bob NP: Joni, "Sweet Sucker Dance" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:32:35 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: SV: Retro Joni Covers, Volume 27 Thanks Marion for giving us an idea of the Swedish translation of the two Joni covers. I found that very interesting. I wonder why Lindfors' couldn't translate the lyrics of ACOY. Maybe you could work on that yourself. Just to see if it's possible. I think there is no difference between a cover and a rip off. Mark in Sydney NP Myth - David Bridie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:40:55 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Early Joni, 1966-1968 Disc 2 Bob, I seem to recall Joni saying at the Commonwealth Club interview that she always writes the music first and then the lyrics. It was either that interview or the Amanda Ghost interview. Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 03:52:23 -0700 From: Dave Blackburn Subject: Covers and copyrights Hi Marion and everyone, A song is defined in copyright law as melody and words. That means certain things like the chord progression and arrangement are open to modification without limit; this is the stock in trade of jazz musicians amongst others, who often spend their whole careers playing "cover" songs of Gershwin, Porter etc but strive to reframe the songs in original ways. You are allowed to record anyone's song without express permission but you must cite the correct composer and pay "mechanical" royalties up front to them. In the U.S at the moment, that is 9.1c per song per copy manufactured if it is under 5 minutes. If you record somebody's song and change the lyrics somewhat or entirely, or set lyrics to an instrumental piece (Robin and I did that with a Pat Metheny tune one time) you are creating a "derivative work"; a work that is based on the original composition but which has generated a new one. It will likely have a whole different title. To make a derivative work permission must be granted and usually no copyright benefits accrue to the person adding the new material. In other words the song is still fully owned by the first composer. In the U.S at least, copyrights expire 70 years after a composer's death, after which the material becomes "public domain". Anyone who has ever bought a guitar or piano method book will usually wonder why all the songs in them are obscure folk songs or traditional pieces; the reason is the publisher doesn't have to pay any songwriters royalties as the material is public domain. This just scratches the surface but I hope it helps a bit. For more info I bet Jerry Notaro could enlighten. cheers, Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 07:51:52 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Covers and copyrights > This just scratches the surface but I hope it helps a bit. For more > info I bet Jerry Notaro could enlighten. Thanks, Dave. You've done a great job of explaining a VERY complicated law. As a Media Librarian I do have to deal with these issues every day, but fortunately on the educational uses, rather than the commercial ones. Those are also complicated and vastly misunderstood. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:45:55 +0000 From: Michel BYRNE Subject: words or music first? Just to chip in, on what Deb and Monika have said - any description I've seen by Joni of her composition process has been on the lines of music first, then words - in fact, with the guitar at least: establish the chordal structure first, then let the melody emerge, then apply the lyrics. For some reason, tho, I've a feeling BSN started with words first - am I just imagining this, or was it in the interview about the 'Dreamland' compilation that Bob posted? I agree with Monika (though i've only very rarely written song lyrics) that starting with the music seems easier, as the melody defines the metrical pattern, and suggest the rhyming pattern, before you've even thought of what you're going to say. Summer greetings to all. Mich _________________________________________________________________ Great deals on almost anything at eBay.co.uk. Search, bid, find and win on eBay today! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000004ukm/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:16:54 -0500 (CDT) From: johncalimee@verizon.net Subject: Music. Love any mention of Joan's writing. (Swore my posting days were behind me, but my love of Joni's writing got the best of me.) It's true, there are numerous articles where Joni mentions the music as the starting point of a song. Audio tapes regarding Magdaleine Laundries or the video where she receives an award in Italy for songwriting are fine examples. I believe this discribes her creative process in general: She finds a tuning. Then she searches out 7 or 8 chords within the tuning and begins to structure them in some order, building patterns that fit and then piecing the patterns together to form a song. After the chordal patterns are set, she 'floats' a melodic line over the pattern, a kind of Mitchell-esque scat singing. (see the Italia video of Passion Play.) Next comes the words. Lots of words, as she is given to writing up to 8 times the words needed for a song, and from this excess, she pairs down to the 'best' of the lyrics. (I'd love to dvd extras of stanzas that didn't make the cut for each song.) Once the lyrics are set, the jeweling process begins, altering the the phrasing and the notes of the original melodic line to suit the words. And so a song is born! -Or should we say the demo is born??? So simple, I bet every one of us could do it. For the longest time I was stuck trying to understand what she meant when she says certain parts of the song need to be descriptive, with other parts declarative. More fascinating, she has mentioned how there are certain places in the song where a point of wisdom HAS to be made. After some reflection, it made sense to me. Consider a short melodic phrase, say 'badda boom, big badda boom.' There are only so many things you can do within that form, depending on where it sits compared to a longer melodic line. What goes there is almost forced by relationship and structure. Of the late work, the only songs I know that are lyric first include: Slouching towards Bethlehem Yvette in English If - -Either way, I marvel at her writing skills. I couldn't imagine taking on the job of setting 'If' to song, yet Joni pulls it off with graceful ease. The melodic line is so elegant and fluid. And the music to Yvette is a bittersweet mix of the romantic and melancholic. That she could find this tunning and this melodic line to suit Crosby's lyrics. It is a wonder. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:46:04 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Early Joni, 1966-1968 Disc 2 I remember an interview where she said that the music has features & the sound of the words should compliment them. Fittingly, she "sees" these features. She said something like, "I think of it like architecture. You'll have a constant roof line, but then your eye encounters a gable. The words have to work with that feature." I don't know if she wrote "California" that way, but it sounds like it. (Last week I imagined Gov Swartzenegger singing "Col-eee-forn-ia".) Jim L'Hommedieu (taking a break from replacing the car's water pump. And timing belt. And radiator.) now playing "Livin' For the City", at 1/3 volume in the other room Deb Messling said in part, >She says the music will demand a certain kind of lyric, for example she might need something very simple and declarative, or she might even need a certain vowel sound.> ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #82 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe