From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #27 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, April 25 2008 Volume 2008 : Number 027 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Who Knows Where The Time Goes? (now with some JC) [paulcastle@talktalk.ne] Re: the old man is snoring... [David Sapp ] Re: Who Knows Where The Time Goes? (now with some JC) [Bob.Muller@Fluor.c] Denny doc on BBC2 ["Anita Tedder" ] Re: the old man is snoring... ["Mark Angelo" ] Re: Who Knows Where The Time Goes? (now with some JC) [paulcastle@talktal] Re: the old man is snoring... ["Jerry Notaro" ] Re: the old man is snoring... [David Sapp ] Re: Denny doc on BBC2 [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: the old man is snoring... [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: the old man is snoring... ["Mark Angelo" ] Re: Denny doc on BBC2 ["Barbara Stewart" ] Re: the old man is snoring... ["Mark Angelo" ] Love this quote ["Mark Angelo" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:23:39 -0400 From: paulcastle@talktalk.net Subject: Who Knows Where The Time Goes? (now with some JC) Catherine wrote >I'm loving the talk about Sandy Denny >Barbara, I loved your post.... Me too! Spot on, Barbara. Interesting to find I was having similar discussions on the jmdl back in July 1999 - then with Catgirl and Philip in a thread about Sandy and with Pam (pjtjoy) in a thread called "The New Joni Mitchell". The digest is still online here - http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni/v04.n329 Philip had posted about the tape of Sandy singing 'Marcie' and 'Night In The City' on a live session for the BBC and I got to tell my story about going for a drink with her in 1968. Not long after this someone on the Fairport list sent me recording's of all their Joni covers (including 'Chelsea Morning' sung by Judy Dyble, just before Sandy joinced FC) which I sent over to Bob for an early edition of his Covers CDs. Nearly 9 years ago!! - who knows where the time goes, eh? "Bushes and Briars" has always been one of my very favourite Sandy songs. I've only just found out (today!) that she wrote it in a churchyard I know very well - in Shipton-on-Cherwell in Oxfordshire - where both my grandparents are buried and my sister got married. Sandy probably wrote it in March 1972 when she was recording at Shipton Manor (then Richard Branson's Manor Studios) - she talks about writing it - and what inspired it - in a live version of the song which is up on her MySpace site @ http://www.myspace.com/sandydenny PaulC PS The BBC doc is online here - click listen again beside her photo @ http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/musicclub/doc_sandydenny.shtml ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:32:27 -0700 (PDT) From: David Sapp Subject: Re: the old man is snoring... I've always heard Taming the Tiger as a meditation on celebrity... Sophia says "It's hard to catch And harder still to ride The time to watch the beast the best Is when it's purring at your side" Purring at your side Accolades and honors One false move and you're a goner. The beast and/or the Tiger represents celebrity or fame. So Joni is up late, the night owl, doing whatever it is she does to keep the beast purring at her side while the old man... Donald at the time... is sound asleep snoring... ... signing off for now, Peace, David - --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:18:13 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Who Knows Where The Time Goes? (now with some JC) To be more accurate...you actually sent them to John Low in Sydney, Australia who in turn sent them to me when I sent him a copy of Joni in Sydney in '83. It was interesting because I had no idea what I was going to with those covers, I decided to see if I could find enough others to match up with them and make a whole CD's worth....CSNY, Bonnie Raitt, plus a couple that Stephen (another ex-JMDL'er) had sent me as filler on tapes, plus a couple others that I found at the library and I soon had a whole CD's worth, as well as a hobby that has become quite a fun and amazing thing for me. And also another small correction...the tracks you sent John were not ALL of the Fairport covers as it omitted the studio version of Both Sides Now - - they've released both a live and a studio version and I have since amended Volume 1 to include it. You did, however send me a CD's worth of Sandy and Nick Drake tracks which I cherish to this day! Bob NP: Tom Waits, "Heigh Ho" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 18:30:55 +0100 From: "Anita Tedder" Subject: Denny doc on BBC2 I listened to the programme about Sandy Denny on Tuesday night on BBC Radio 2. I luckily saw both Sandy and Joni in concert several times during the early 70s and, to me, they were so very, very different. I could never understand that 'next Joni Mitchell' thing that went on and still goes on now. So Barbara when you wrote: "Have you heard her music? It stands alone - no comparison needed between her and Joni. Both entirely innovative in their time - both opening the way for those later destined to be called the "next" Joni or the "next" Sandy (as attached to many new female singers in the UK)." I quite understood where you are coming from. Even at the time, I actually found the comparisons quite bewildering and it wasn't until I discovered feminism and realised what a sexist old world it was that I began to understand the position women performers in many artistic fields were placed in. 'The next this' or 'The next that'. It just didn't seem to happen to men in the same way. 2 guitarists, a bass player and drummer were never the 'next Beatles'. They were always the band they were. Going back to Sandy Denny, I simply loved the Fairport album 'What we did on our holidays', particularly the stunning, startling, unheard of (at the time) electrical arrangement of 'She moves through the fair'. The album also, I seem to recall, included a cover of Joni's Eastern Rain. I never heard a version of that song by Joni. Is there one anywhere anyone? Bob? I bought Fairport's album 'Unhalfbricking' after 'What we did on our holidays' (although I think it was the first album) and was going out with a lad from Muswell Hill. We went round Muswell Hill trying to spot the garden where the cover photo was taken. Happy heterosexual days! I went with him to the Roundhouse in Chalk Farm one New Years Eve in the early 70s where the Albion Country Band were playing and rumours abounded that many of Fairport would turn up - and they did. I can remember Richard Thompson and Linda Peters (at that time, I think she went on to become Linda Thompson?) stood up and blew along. It was a FANTASTIC New Years Eve. Another rumour went round the crowd that night that Sandy would be there - but she didn't show. I was gutted, but it was still one of the nights of my life just dancing to the Albion Band and fairport for hours. I later saw Sandy at the Queen Elisabeth Hall supporting John Martyn (or he supported her) and it really was another of the greatest musical events of my life. Sandy was really terrifically funny, totally inspired (as was John Martyn). I didn't recognise this warm, funny spirit as the sad figure she seemed to emerge as in much of the Radio 2 documentary. I had all Sandy Denny albums alongside the Joni ones but, in Sandy's later albums, I didn't feel she was able to quite define who or what she wanted musically, whereas Joni always seemed know what she wanted (or certainly what she didn't want) musically. I think Joni always saw herself as an artist and had enough strength or ego or something to have her prime goal of making stuff she valued beyond anything else. Joni, to me, seemed to not to be so bothered (though the pressure was undoubtedly on her) to further stoke the star maker machinery behind the popular song. I don't know if Sandy quite knew how to resist that pressure and find her own way. Whatever, I thought Sandy was quite, quite wonderful. I loved her voice and loved many, many songs she both wrote and interpreted and I certainly wished she had stayed around as long as Joni. I shall toast her memory with a beer tonight. I imagine she might have liked that! Anita ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:10:04 -0400 From: "Mark Angelo" Subject: Re: the old man is snoring... Very well put David. The tiger seems to be to be that unforgiving "beast" that is Hollywood - the recording industry specifically, but also the film industry, etc...- where you'd better follow the rules and adhere to the overlords there (predominantly male) and keep churning out that formulat that brings in the money and play the game of "gotta be a winner...Number 1" - - the hell with content. Also I find the use of "Sophia" interesting, I wonder whether it is a personal acquaintance or not, or used because it is derived from the Latin meaning "wisdom". Almost exactly the same sentiments in those lyrics from TTT were expressed decades earlier in the song For The Roses (from FTR): Now I sit up here the critic And they introduce some band But they seem so much confetti Looking at them on my TV set Oh the power and the glory Just when you're getting a taste for worship They start bringing out the hammers And the boards And the nails... Mark in Florida. On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 10:32 AM, David Sapp wrote: > I've always heard Taming the Tiger as a meditation on celebrity... > > Sophia says "It's hard to catch > And harder still to ride > The time to watch the beast the best > Is when it's purring at your side" > Purring at your side > Accolades and honors > One false move and you're a goner. > > The beast and/or the Tiger represents celebrity or fame. So Joni is up > late, the night owl, doing whatever it is she does to keep the beast purring > at her side while the old man... Donald at the time... is sound asleep > snoring... > > ... signing off for now, > Peace, David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:12:47 -0400 From: paulcastle@talktalk.net Subject: Re: Who Knows Where The Time Goes? (now with some JC) Bob wrote: (re the Fairport Joni covers I thought I'd sent him) > To be more accurate...you actually sent them to John Low in Sydney, > Australia who in turn sent them to me when I sent him a copy of Joni >in Sydney in '83. To quote Maurice Chevalier in Gigi, "Ahh Yes, I remember it well" Is John still on the list? I do remember him sending me a copy of The Attic Tracks 1972-1984 CD - orginally a series of cassettes put together by the Australian Friends of Fairport of out-takes by Sandy, Trevor Lucas & friends, which includes an amazing solo piano version of Sandy singing 'No End' - one of her finest songs IMO, that ended up getting a full lush string arrangement on her 'Old Fashioned Waltz' album - the best I can find on the net is a 1 minute sample of a remastered version (Track 13) here : http://www.7digital.com/artists/sandy-denny/like-an-old-fashioned-waltz-(remastered)/ PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:34:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jerry Notaro" Subject: Re: the old man is snoring... Mark Angelo wrote: > > Now I sit up here the critic > And they introduce some band > But they seem so much confetti > Looking at them on my TV set > Oh the power and the glory > Just when you're getting a taste for worship > They start bringing out the hammers > And the boards > And the nails... One of Joni's best songs from her best album. A timeless masterpiece. Seems so much more like true, inteeligent satire than whine. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:15:49 -0700 (PDT) From: David Sapp Subject: Re: the old man is snoring... Mark it seems that I read somewhere that Sophia Loren is the source of the Sophia comment. And Jerry I agree with you absolutely... For the Roses, the song is a timeless masterpiece. And as I have said many times I believe the Travelogue version is definitive because the arrangement brings out the tension of the stark spotlight and the boards and the nails. The original version is stunningly beautiful but all I really hear in the arrangement is the sound of the wind. ... signing off for now, Peace, David - --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:48:53 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Denny doc on BBC2 Yes, there are a couple live recordings of that one in circulation. She did a studio recording as well but that one remains in the vaults. Besides Fairport's cover of it, there was a different sounding cover of it by The Lazy Eyes, and Big Yellow Taxi from Denmark has a new recording of it hitting the streets any day now. If Catherine or someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll put a Yousendit copy of Joni's version out there for you, sweetheart. Bob NP: The Drive-By Truckers, "Lisa's Birthday" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:52:58 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: the old man is snoring... Wonder no longer, Mark - Joni is referencing a quote by Sophia Loren per this excerpt from her TTT interview with Chris Douridas: ***Now, song two, coming back to what I said originally, you know, I only have one song inside of me: I'm mad at show business. You know, so "Taming the Tiger" was kind of an analogy, but it was a big meditation. It was really hard to know what I meant by "Taming the Tiger." I mean I asked myself, you know, who is the tiger and what do you mean, because it was complex. For instance, "Sophia says it's hard -- " the second verse -- "Sophia says it's hard to catch and harder still to ride." That's something Sophia Loren said. "Sophia" also means wisdom, you know, the name means wisdom. Sophia Loren said of show business, "hard enough to catch the tiger, harder still to stay on its back," right? So using the analogy of the tiger, you know, for metaphor for show business as it is in - -- the song was terribly in danger of being a mixed metaphor, you know. I had to keep focusing myself, what do you mean by the tiger?, what do you mean by the tiger?*** Bob NP: Harold Melvin & The Blue Notes, "The Love I Lost" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:00:59 -0400 From: "Mark Angelo" Subject: Re: the old man is snoring... Thanks Bob for that excerpt, I would have otherwise never connected the reference with with Sophia Loren. And Sophia had some useful insight from whence Joni got the notion of the tiger as metaphor for showbiz. The metaphor of the tiger and "taming the tiger" fits in perfectly with Joni's decision to make TTT a showcase for her 4 "tamed tigers", her cats, appearing on the cover, the back, in her paintings inside, the song TTT, and of course Man From Mars. On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:52 PM, wrote: > > Wonder no longer, Mark - Joni is referencing a quote by Sophia Loren per > this excerpt from her TTT interview with Chris Douridas: > > ***Now, song two, coming back to what I said originally, you know, I only > have one song inside of me: I'm mad at show business. You know, so "Taming > the Tiger" was kind of an analogy, but it was a big meditation. It was > really hard to know what I meant by "Taming the Tiger." I mean I asked > myself, you know, who is the tiger and what do you mean, because it was > complex. For instance, "Sophia says it's hard -- " the second verse -- > "Sophia says it's hard to catch and harder still to ride." That's something > Sophia Loren said. "Sophia" also means wisdom, you know, the name means > wisdom. Sophia Loren said of show business, "hard enough to catch the tiger, > harder still to stay on its back," right? So using the analogy of the tiger, > you know, for metaphor for show business as it is in -- the song was > terribly in danger of being a mixed metaphor, you know. I had to keep > focusing myself, what do you mean by the tiger?, what do you mean by the > tiger?*** > > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:20:53 -0400 From: "Barbara Stewart" Subject: Re: Denny doc on BBC2 Yay you, Bob!!! B from : Barbara L.Stewart, MLS Library - Sesame Workshop 1 Lincoln Plaza, 4th fl, NYC, NY 10023 USA tel: 212-875-6393 fax: 212-875-7309 barbara.stewart@sesameworkshop.org "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." - ML King >>> From: To:"Anita Tedder" CC:, , Date: 4/24/08 3:32 PM Subject: Re: Denny doc on BBC2 Yes, there are a couple live recordings of that one in circulation. She did a studio recording as well but that one remains in the vaults. Besides Fairport's cover of it, there was a different sounding cover of it by The Lazy Eyes, and Big Yellow Taxi from Denmark has a new recording of it hitting the streets any day now. If Catherine or someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll put a Yousendit copy of Joni's version out there for you, sweetheart. Bob NP: The Drive-By Truckers, "Lisa's Birthday"------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:56:03 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: the old man is snoring... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Sapp" To: "joni list" Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 7:32 AM Subject: Re: the old man is snoring... > I've always heard Taming the Tiger as a meditation on celebrity... > > Sophia says "It's hard to catch > And harder still to ride > The time to watch the beast the best > Is when it's purring at your side" > Purring at your side > Accolades and honors > One false move and you're a goner. > You left out one word, David: Boring! and then she sings: The old man is snoring Joni is bored with the whole thing. Boredom is sleep inducing. Therefore, the old man (whoever he happens to be) is snoring. Anyway, that's what I think. But then again, she is still 'taming the tiger' (you can't tame the tiger). Maybe taming the tiger is putting it in its place. Making it insignificant in her life, putting it away in its cage. Because it's boring and she doesn't want to play its game anymore. Maybe. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:54:12 -0400 From: "Mark Angelo" Subject: Re: the old man is snoring... On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Mark Scott wrote in part: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Sapp" > To: "joni list" > Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 7:32 AM > Subject: Re: the old man is snoring...You left out one word, David: > > Boring! > > and then she sings: > > The old man is snoring > > Joni is bored with the whole thing. Boredom is sleep inducing. Therefore, > the old man (whoever he happens to be) is snoring. > > Anyway, that's what I think. > > But then again, she is still 'taming the tiger' (you can't tame the tiger). > > Maybe taming the tiger is putting it in its place. Making it insignificant > in her life, putting it away in its cage. Because it's boring and she > doesn't want to play its game anymore. > > Maybe. > > Mark in Seattle Mark, that certainly makes sense from the vantage that TTT was to be her permanent farewell to the cesspool which she came to view as the recording industry. I've read that much (if not most) of the work she produced she felt was a product of her having to adopt out Kelly Green, later to be named Killauren Gibb, and the music (and painting) was partly born of that emotional toll that was to fill that hole in her that could never be completed until she was reunited once again with her daughter. TTT was produced shortly after that reunion, indeed, the song "Stay in Touch", probably my favorite off of TTT was written about that relationship. So TTT was a farewell to the stoking the star maker machinery industry she despised so much, and the reunion with her daughter helped heal that dissonance that was part of the creative force she carried so many years. Indeed, nearly 10 years later, it took the pain she was seeing at how the natural world that she was so sensitive to, more painful to her than the pain of a love relationship gone sour, was being decimated, that the planet was at "Red Alert" and she felt she had to move from a sense of futility to voice this final wake-up call in Shine, although like Joni, I don't see anything short of a miracle that will save the human species, still busy worshiping it's own ego, from itself. Just my opinion being a well-informed optimist (never a pessimist, never!) here... Mark in Florida. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 02:51:48 -0400 From: "Mark Angelo" Subject: Love this quote I love this quote now headlining The Oil Drum blog: "Men argue; nature acts." Voltaire' "Sweet bird of time and change you must be laughing, up on your feathers laughing" Sweet Bird (HOSL) "Last night I dreamed I saw the planet flicker Forests fell like buffalo Everything got sicker And 'til the bitter end Big business bickered" The Three Great Stimulants (DED) If you're smart or rich or lucky Maybe you'll beat the laws of man But the inner laws of spirit And the outer laws of nature No man can No no man can The Wolf That Lives in Lindsey (Mingus) NP: Two Grey Rooms (NRH) ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #27 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe