From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #26 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, April 24 2008 Volume 2008 : Number 026 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: I Heard It Through The Grapevine [robmsteen@aol.com] Re: I Heard It Through The Grapevine [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Sandy Denny : "Next"? ["Barbara Stewart" ] Denny doc on BBC2 [Coleen ] odd review of "Shine" [Deb Messling ] Re: odd review of "Shine" ["Jamie's Box of Paints" ] Re: sweet bird and strange bird... ["Oddmund Kaarevik" ] Joni mention at gawker.com [Smurf ] Re: sweet bird and strange bird... ["Mark Angelo" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:19:04 -0400 From: robmsteen@aol.com Subject: Re: I Heard It Through The Grapevine Thankyou so much, Monika! Rob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:51:01 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: I Heard It Through The Grapevine Thanks so much for this, Catherine. What a treat. Joni loved Marvin, huh? Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 05:43:12 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: the old man is snoring... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Angelo" > IMHO Joni's definitive song on time moving swiftly and the bliss > lost with > inner wisdom that comes with time along with decaying outer beauty > and > hopelessness over control of that process is ...... See 'Sweet Bird' from THOSL. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 10:29:43 -0400 From: "Barbara Stewart" Subject: Sandy Denny : "Next"? Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:12:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: The next Joni Mitchell >"lauded as the British Joni Mitchell may finally get the recognition she deserves" > No offense or disrespect to the lady you folks have been talking (taken from a recent post) about but how many "next Joni Mitchells" are there now? 432? 434? It is sort of like the whole "fifth Beatle" thing. How many 5th Beatles are there? (Stu Sutcliffe, Pete Best, George Martin, etc etc) I understand that is intended as a compliment to both Joni and whichever new female songwriter but it also is almost a backhanded insult to both. It almost says any new female can who writes and sings can be "a Joni Mitchell" (as if it is possible to be a copy of someone) and it discredits any female songwriter's own originality. It is hard to explain over the net. I feel I could express my thoughts better in person. I mean, Joni didn't become who she is musically by being "the next Joan Baez" or anything like that. You'd be closer, musically speaking (to Joni), if you did your own thing rather than copying Joni and being "the next Joni Mitchell." -M "the British Joni Mitchell" : This is an appellation applied to Sandy after her death - by pundits. She passed away 30 years ago. So she's not the 'next', nor never was. Monica is right in that it discounts both musicians involved. And it is invariably sexist - you don't find male artists subjected constantly to this. The fact is, that as Joni was rising on the West Coast, Sandy was a contemporary. Their voices are both high and sweet in this early era, prompting the comparisons. But it's not a contest - it is each artist standing in dignity in their own right. Joni's career surged forward while Sandy's, despite multiple collaborations with the British folk and rock (male) rising stars of the time (JM parallel), stagnated, in part due to her increasing emotional problems. Had her addictions not dominated her late 20s, who knows what parallels in productivity and creativity might have crowned her later life. The promise was incontrovertibly there. We are very fortunate that Joni's magnificent gifts have endured and matured over 4 decades. Have you heard her music? It stands alone - no comparison needed between her and Joni. Both entirely innovative in their time - both opening the way for those later destined to be called the "next" Joni or the "next" Sandy (as attached to many new female singers in the UK). The haunting composition "Who Knows Where the Time Goes", jazz-infused "Autopsy", the inventive collaboration on "Tam Lin" - all these were as groundbreaking as Joni's compositions, and impacted the British audience in the same way Joni did here - the emergence of an eminently poetic and musical female voice. It is the anniversary of her death that is prompting media coverage now. Mostly written by critics looking for 'convenient' signposts and markers, who weren't even born while she (and Joni) emerged to forever alter the reception for female singer-songwriters on both sides of the pond. One can love and appreciate (and revere) them both, without diminishing nor detracting from the outstanding contributions of the other. I'm racking my brain unsuccessfully, but I'm sure, from the recesses of my memory, that Joni has remarked on her esteem for Sandy's work. B from : Barbara L.Stewart, MLS Library - Sesame Workshop 1 Lincoln Plaza, 4th fl, NYC, NY 10023 USA tel: 212-875-6393 fax: 212-875-7309 barbara.stewart@sesameworkshop.org "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." - ML King ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 07:53:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Monika Bogdanowicz Subject: Re: the old man is snoring... You see, this very discussion illustrates another wonderful example of Joni's songs--the fact that they are open to interpretation! I love that. Her songs are not so concrete that this one idea of what a song is about is set in stone. As revealed here, one person thinks a song (or a line or two) is about "this" while another person thinks it is about "that" and you know what? Joni may have had something completely different in mind herself when writing it! That is beautiful in essence to me. That is something that makes Joni's songs in particular so accessible. They are open to interpretation which as a result make them much more relatable. Love it. -M - --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 11:02:56 -0400 From: Coleen Subject: Denny doc on BBC2 Hi All, Barbara's posts re: Sandy Denny piqued my curiosity so I listened to the excellent doc last night on BBC online . It's made me want to explore her (and Fairport Convention's ) music. Somehow, they both escaped my notice in the 70's. I also recorded it - here's the link if any of you are interested. http://www.yousendit.com/download/www/b1NMa3ZLeFhOQncwTVE9PQ Cheers, Coleen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 11:38:47 -0400 From: Deb Messling Subject: odd review of "Shine" The Makinac Center for Public Policy has an audio review of Shine, actually a scathing critique of the pro-environmental slant of the lyrics (this is apparently a free-enterprise, conservative site). http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=9396 I don't actually disagree with all the points (I don't know enough about DDT and its role in fighting malaria), but once someone makes a goofball mistake about Joni's work, in a review of her work, I'm not inclined to trust them. Did you know that Joni collaborated with Mingus on a album that adapted T. S. Eliot's Four Quartets? Neither did I, and boy, do I want to hear it!! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- dlmessling@rcn.com http://www.sensibleshoes.vox.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:16:09 +0100 From: "Jamie's Box of Paints" Subject: Re: odd review of "Shine" LOL Yes, it was *initially* an album from the Four Quartets but Joni took one look at the poems and went 'naaaaah, not my thing.' I think she thought that it would be too obscure for everyone to have a working knowledge of Latin and Greek before they even started to comprehend it. That was her excuse! And I tend to agree with that one... Not heard this link yet but I guess I'll give it a go when I get home from work. Zooby On 23/04/2008, Deb Messling wrote: > The Makinac Center for Public Policy has an audio review of Shine, actually > a scathing critique of the pro-environmental slant of the lyrics (this is > apparently a free-enterprise, conservative site). > > http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=9396 > > I don't actually disagree with all the points (I don't know enough about DDT > and its role in fighting malaria), but once someone makes a goofball mistake > about Joni's work, in a review of her work, I'm not inclined to trust them. > Did you know that Joni collaborated with Mingus on a album that adapted T. > S. Eliot's Four Quartets? Neither did I, and boy, do I want to hear it!! > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Deb Messling -^..^- > dlmessling@rcn.com > http://www.sensibleshoes.vox.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - -- I am a lonely Painter I live in a Box of Paints I'm frightened by the devil But I'm drawn to those ones that 'aint afraid... Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at http://uk.voicespro.com/jamie.zubairi1 acting CV and showreel at http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 http://www.jamiezubairi.co.uk Facebook me! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:27:16 -0400 From: "Mark Angelo" Subject: Re: the old man is snoring... Mark, yeah very true, I forgot about Sweet Bird off THOSL, which goes even beyond the personal (ego) and speaks of entire civilizations "cities under the sand" and is probably the most humbling of all with the lyrics "No one knows They can never get that close Guesses at most based on what each set of time and change is touching" which is about as close as you can get to nihilism in a sense. I've laid down on the bed many of times in my youth thinking of the song and it's lyrics, imagining my spot "in the middle of this continent, in the middle of our time on Earth" as the sky rushes above us while we hurtle through space, and what we view as "normal" (ie. gravity) is only that way because evolution has adapted us to perceiving it that way. I've always thought the song is a perfect counterpart to Both Sides Now, in which she speaks of clouds, love, life, as being illusory when looked at from the perspective of our "oasis in space" and it's insignificance in terms of galactic or really even universal dimensions. On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Monika Bogdanowicz wrote in part: > You see, this very discussion illustrates another wonderful example of > Joni's songs--the fact that they are open to interpretation! I love that. > Completely agree Monika, and the more of life you experience, the more meanings her prescient lyrics can take on. Even though Joni disses on poets and poetry herself (it can get so deep you can't wade through it...something like that), Camille Paglia thinks her songs are brilliant enough (they are) to include "Woodstock" in her book of the 40 greatest poems ever written, Break, Blow, Burn. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:25:09 +0200 From: "Oddmund Kaarevik" Subject: Re: sweet bird and strange bird... Thanks for the tips about "Sweet bird," I've never really thought about that text. reading it brought up to me Jonis latest reference to birds in her music. (whilst the) Sweet bird you are Briefer than a falling star and You must be laughing Up on your feathers laughing we have another bird reference on shine In between holywar - suicice and genoicide we hear about some Strange birds of appetite... and If I had a heart I'd cry. I just thought it was intersting to notice how Jonis perception and use of birds are so different on these two recordings - 30 years between them and so much has happened... I also remember very well the pictures of all the birds flying in the great documentary "woman of heart and mind" where Joni speaks about when the demons fly away - the angels go too... I just find the birds (and other flying objects) suddenly as a reocurring symbols in Jonis music, and have never really given it a thought before now. I think before this discussion the river was the main symbol i have had in connection with Joni, something that she herself built up on in the quite recent Mojo interview - telling that she looked upon her music as a river, ever changing... It certainly is interesting to give these symbols and different opinions and understandings some time and space. Joni is a clever wordsmith. To me it was very interesting to hear that she started writing the melody and than the text. I believe that may be a key to understand why her music has become so rich and varied. And also why her texts are so original and full of interesting metaphors and symbols... Best ! Oddmund On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Mark Angelo wrote: > Mark, yeah very true, I forgot about Sweet Bird off THOSL, which goes even > beyond the personal (ego) and speaks of entire civilizations "cities under > the sand" and is probably the most humbling of all with the lyrics > > "No one knows > They can never get that close > Guesses at most > based on what each set of time and change is touching" > > which is about as close as you can get to nihilism in a sense. I've laid > down on the bed many of times in my youth thinking of the song and it's > lyrics, imagining my spot "in the middle of this continent, in the middle of > our time on Earth" as the sky rushes above us while we hurtle through space, > and what we view as "normal" (ie. gravity) is only that way because > evolution has adapted us to perceiving it that way. I've always thought the > song is a perfect counterpart to Both Sides Now, in which she speaks of > clouds, love, life, as being illusory when looked at from the perspective of > our "oasis in space" and it's insignificance in terms of galactic or really > even universal dimensions. > > On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Monika Bogdanowicz > wrote in part: > > You see, this very discussion illustrates another wonderful example of > Joni's songs--the fact that they are open to interpretation! I love that. > > > > Completely agree Monika, and the more of life you experience, the more > meanings her prescient lyrics can take on. Even though Joni disses on poets > and poetry herself (it can get so deep you can't wade through it...something > like that), Camille Paglia thinks her songs are brilliant enough (they are) > to include "Woodstock" in her book of the 40 greatest poems ever written, > Break, Blow, Burn. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:29:44 -0400 From: "Vince Lavieri" Subject: Re: odd review of "Shine" On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Deb Messling wrote: > The Makinac Center for Public Policy has an audio review of Shine, > actually a scathing critique of the pro-environmental slant of the lyrics > (this is apparently a free-enterprise, conservative site). > http://www.sensibleshoes.vox.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Indeed the Makinac Center for Public Policy is a very right wing think tank that provided the philosophy of our governor from 1990-2002. Those are the same years that Michigan went from a $2 billion dollar rainy day fund prosperous state to the total depression we have been in for years. The pushed for the gutting of all environmental controls, for the gutting of all safety and labor and consumer protection, for the slashing of funds for education and for child welfare and hospitals and on and on and on, they destroyed our state's economy to what is the worst economy in the nation. We ousted them from the governors office but they still influence our Senate and despite the hard work of our governor they still [provide the philosophy to our state senate so that our climb back is much more arduous than it needs be. I despise them. hateful rhetoric from them about Joni would not surprise me,.. These are not nice pleasant conservatives. They are hateful rabid true believers who had an idea about 10 years ago that the next president should be George Bush. Need I say more. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 17:45:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Joni mention at gawker.com Here's what they had to say: << Divorce Endings Oh lawd. Poor Star Jones is getting a divorce. Her wedding to a gay man was good PR for her, so maybe her divorce from a gay man will be too. The circle game continues and Joni Mitchell weeps somewhere. >> There are also a couple of commenter, um . . . comments! http://gawker.com/383115/endings - --Smurf ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:03:25 -0400 From: "Mark Angelo" Subject: Re: sweet bird and strange bird... On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:25 PM, Oddmund Kaarevik wrote in part: > Thanks for the tips about "Sweet bird," > I've never really thought about that text. > reading it brought up to me Jonis latest reference to birds in her music. > > (whilst the) > Sweet bird you are > Briefer than a falling star > and > You must be laughing > Up on your feathers laughing > > we have another bird reference on shine > In between holywar - suicice and genoicide > we hear about some > Strange birds of appetite... > > and > If I had a heart I'd cry. > > I just thought it was intersting to notice how Jonis perception > and use of birds are so different on these two recordings - 30 years > between > them and so much has happened... > > I also remember very well the pictures of all the birds flying > in the great documentary "woman of heart and mind" where Joni speaks about > when the demons fly away - the angels go too... > > I just find the birds (and other flying objects) suddenly as a > reocurring symbols in Jonis music, and have never really given it a > thought before now. Indeed Oddmund, Joni has always used birds, I believe more than any other creature to symbolize things. In Sweet Bird I believe she is making a reference to some omniscient entity or perhaps even non-entity which looks down from above at the dog eat dog rat race we humans have created aka civilization and how our obsession with "power, ideals, and beauty" in the grand scheme of things is ephemeral and bordering on meaningless. (My take on it anyhow)> "Strange birds of appetite" IIR was bandied about as the possible name for the album "Shine" but IMHO I believe she chose "Shine" as superficially it is more uplifting, but "when you dig down deep" the song is a scathing indictment of Western Culture. The human race itself is (are?) the strange birds of appetite she refers to which cover the Earth "like a plague". I'm not so sure how well that sentiment would have been received as the name of a CD, and "Shine" - the word - is open for different interpretations. Kind of like when she picked "Blue" as a title, when she was ascending in popularity but was uncomfortable as being perceived as some kind of god-like rock goddess and chose to convey she was unwilling to play the recording industry game and "be a winner trophy winner ...hold your head up high up (and be) Number one". I'd say crows are her most frequent reference to birds. "Crazy Crow" is her publishing company. "Black crow" (Hejira) "diving down to pick up on every shiny thing" is a self-critical song in which she sings of self-interest and greed which are hallmarks of her fellow hu(man) of which she is not proud. "Those crazy crows always causing a commotion" is a softer, tongue in cheek reference to humanity again in "This Place" (Shine), for just like the crows, humanity is so short-sighted it is desires it is destroying "this place" we call home. Just two references about crows, I know there are many more. Mark in Florida. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:42:14 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: sweet bird and strange bird... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oddmund Kaarevik" > I just find the birds (and other flying objects) suddenly as a > reocurring symbols in Jonis music, and have never really given it a > thought before now. I think you are absolutely right, Oddmund. From her very first album (which is titled 'Song to a Seagull') My gentle relations Have names they must call me For loving the freedom of all flying things to 'Amelia' off of 'Hejira' A ghost of aviation She was swallowed by the sky Or by the sea Like me she had a dream to fly flight has been a recurring theme and flying things recurring images in Joni's music. One of my favorite photos of Joni is on the sleeve of the original vinyl 'Hejira'. A black & white photo of Joni in her 'crow costume' against a backdrop of clouds, 'wings' outstretched as if in mid-flight. The face is so beautiful in that picture, framed by its feathery cloche hat. Angelic and conveying a sense of the thrill and wonder of flight. It is a wonderful image. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2008 #26 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe