From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #284 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, September 15 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 284 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry ["Marion Leffler" ] Re: Jonis' bad poetry ["Mark L. Levinson" ] Prince Gig last night sjc [missblux@googlemail.com] Retro Covers, Volume 18 [Bob Muller ] RE: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [missblux@googlemail.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:18:40 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Richard, first of all, I am a woman. And one of heart and mind, at that. (Interesting that you assumed I was a man. Shall we have a gender discussion next?) I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot since from your response to Victor I can see there has been some misunderstanding. It's not that I mind criticism of what I love. My admiration for Joni does not make me blind to her shortcomings, she is no goddess to me. In my professional life, like in yours, criticism is the air that I breathe. What I objected to was the seemingly formalistic discussion of whether or not a certain song lyrics could be defined as a poem, based on structure rather than contents. I felt it belonged in a classroom rather than on the list. I did not argue in defence of Joni as much as in defence of her listeners. I'm sure my non-historian friends would hate it if I spoiled their experience of a historical novel or movie by analysing it from a professional point of view. If you are not trained - and it takes years, as you and AJ well know - you are either not interested or unable or unwilling to take it in, especially if it means that you have to change your previous understanding. The responses on the list to my questioning that "Men love war" is a valid generalisation of History exemplifies this. It's human. I did not intend to say that Joni is only about emotions, I did say I respond to her on an emotional level. Anyway, I realise that yours and AJ's sharing of your knowledge was on request of Bene, and some other list members appreciated it, too. On the other hand, some members seemed to want to disagree with you, and that was when I joined the discussion. So if despite your "promise" to ignore me in future you have read this far I hope that I succeeded in straightening out some of the misunderstandings. Peace, Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Richard Flynn Skickat: den 14 september 2007 21:59 Till: 'Victor Johnson'; ajfashion@att.net Kopia: missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: RE: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Victor, I should know better than to jump back in to this conversation. You say this: "I understand what you are saying and I also understand what Marion is saying. I don't really think anyone is really in disagreement here." I have to say that I am in complete and utter disagreement with Marion, whose argument is that even if we think "Bad Dreams" is not a poem, it shouldn't matter because it is Joni and we should pay attention to the emotional content, and cease all intellectual argument. Marion "cannot see the point in critical assessment of Joni's song lyrics as poetry." I would agree with him as long as they aren't being called poetry. Then I would see the point in critical assessment of Joni's song lyrics in their musical context. Is he saying we should only relate to Joni emotionally: why do you critics want to analyze what we love? You're ruining it for us. To my mind that is supremely condescending to Joni as an artist who ought to welcome serious critical attention to her work. While I'm sure Marion didn't _intend_ this, to say that Joni is all about emotion rather than intellect is implicitly sexist. She herself insists that she is a woman of heart AND mind. No, it's not all books and words, but neither does it make sense to treat Joni like the queen of our dreams. That "Bad Dreams" appeared as a poem--and this was certainly authorized by Joni and I hope she got paid handsomely for it--makes it fair game for criticism under the aesthetic criteria of poetry rather than fandom--people are free to reject the opinions of those who have spent their lives writing and publishing poetry and poetry criticism, but it is surely foolish to pretend that at least to them it doesn't matter. So yes, think Marion is wrong: he & I do not agree. It also matters because it makes Joni look bad. At least AJ and I love Joni as an artist. Our arguments were inspired by love of our difficult art and love of Joni Mitchell and her work. Here's what happens when the bloggers get hold of the "poem" and it's not a pretty picture: http://www.jossip.com/new-yorker/adventures-in-bad-poetry-20070912/ http://www.metafilter.com/64623/What-is-poetry-And-does-it-pay From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Victor Johnson Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:09 PM To: ajfashion@att.net Cc: Marion Leffler; rflynn@frontiernet.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry On Sep 14, 2007, at 8:49 AM, ajfashion@att.net wrote: > > > But if I get in the shower this morning and belt out a Mitchell > or Sondheim song, as I am wont to do, that doesn't mean > I'm a singer. I love it, I do it passionately, but it doesn't > make me a singer. > Yes, but there are plenty of people who sing for their own pleasure, who perhaps might not perform in public, but who are quite good, and could have amazing voices, that most people would never hear. In professional terms, no, they would not be considered singers, but in a more basic sense they are singers. I understand what you're saying, that there are people whose profession and lifelong pursuit is poetry. I majored in English Literature, I'm familiar with many poets (William Blake, William Wordsworth, Percy Shelly, John Keats, Dylan Thomas, Allen Ginsberg, Charles Bukowski, Wallace Stevens, W.H. Auden, etc...) At the same time, I believe there are people that have not studied poetry their whole life that can write good poetry. And if they write poetry, then they are poets, maybe not in the same sense as the ones I mentioned above. This discussion regarding poetry has been muddled from the beginning. I understand what you are saying and I also understand what Marion is saying. I don't really think anyone is really in disagreement here. Victor NP: Joshua Redman "Indian Song" (written by Wayne Shorter) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 17:19:01 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Joni Remixed Part 3 Nice poem, nameless person. Part 3 was posted several days ago but check the link to see if it's still there. http://send.arunalabs.com/download.html?h=TXpJeU1pNHhNakl3 Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:44:48 +0300 From: "Mark L. Levinson" Subject: Re: Jonis' bad poetry I've written, edited, and presented poetry. I've actually even sold a couple of poems; I believe my total lifetime income as a poet is by now close to fifty dollars. But I don't think a clear line can be drawn between what's poetry and what's not. I recall there was a fellow who would take short items from the newspaper, break them up into lines, and present them as "found poetry." They worked because the reader was willing to consider their intellectual and emotional implications and the connotations of their structure and shape, just as Duchamps' urinal worked for the same reason. - ------------------------------------------------ Mark L. Levinson - nosnivel@netvision.net.il - ------------------------------------------------ Mark discourses to fellow Israeli techwriters in The Why of Style, at http://www.elephant.org.il/ - ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:59:47 +0200 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Prince Gig last night sjc Hi Les! Just how cool is that! I didn't know about the Prince gigs, but then I don't live in the UK any longer... I jsut read about how he wanted his London hotel room all in black, including an M&M machine and an oxygen bar. How weird to be such a health freak that you want an oxygen bar, and still you eat M&M's. The Joni clip sounds like one we've seen before where she was wearing lots of make-up and looked really startling; she says he throws the best parties and that she is in fact missing one right now, doesn't she. I think he won an award last year, and various artists sent their greetings. Bene Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:07:40 +0100 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: Prince Gig last night sjc ....it was just kinda cool to walk into the auditorium last night to watch one of Prince's 21 London gigs with the songs from Hejira playing on the PA. Cool too, if a little (hah!) narcissistic, to have a bunch of famous folk singing Prince's praises shown on the screens. The last of those lauding the funky one being our Joni. She said something about him throwing the best parties in Hollywood or somesuch. I think this may have been from some award show or something he was given recently. Joni's 'bit' showed her against a backdrop of her recent 'green' images. Anyway, Prince did his thing with elan and verve and the place was jumping. Elton John, in the audience, got up there and sang a souled out Long and Winding Road. Les (london) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 05:14:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Retro Covers, Volume 18 OK, so we can at least ALL agree that THIS is bad poetry... "There once was a man from Greenville, Collecting Joni covers at will And no matter how rare, He's happy to share Because he knows that y'all need your fill!" So with that lovely intro, here's another "retro" edition of Joni covers, Volume 18. Listening to this one brings back some meomories, hope you enjoy it if you didn't get it the first time 'round. http://tinyurl.com/2wh3dr Tracklist: Brother Love Canal  Both Sides Now Andrea Marcovicci  All I Want John Williams  Woodstock Lydia van Dam  River Ray Brown  Both Sides Now Ginger Mackenzie  Help Me Widow  This Flight Tonight Queen  (Youre So Square) Baby, I Dont Care The Electronic Concept Orchestra  Both Sides Now Swingles II  In France They Kiss On Main Street Baker St. Philharmonic  Woodstock Girls With Guitars*  Big Yellow Taxi Pete Seeger  Both Sides Now Diana Krall  A Case of You Nashville Mandolin Ensemble  Goodbye Pork Pie Hat Caroline de Rooij  River Amanda Firegold/Chad Preston  All I Want Ian McShane  Both Sides Now Bob NP: The Cure, "A Thousand Hours" - --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:28:30 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry My gender assumption came from the spelling of your first name. Like Francis and Frances Marion is ordinarily male and Marian is ordinarily female . I'm sorry about that mistaken assumption. I am not sorry for calling you on your attempt to bully people and attempt to silence them on the list. You are doing it once again. Despite the messages being in direct response to a question, you say that they don't belong on the list. How noble of you to rise to the defense of Joni's listeners. Where the hell do you get off telling people what they can or cannot say here? oe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Marion Leffler Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 3:19 AM To: 'Richard Flynn'; 'Victor Johnson'; ajfashion@att.net Cc: missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Richard, first of all, I am a woman. And one of heart and mind, at that. (Interesting that you assumed I was a man. Shall we have a gender discussion next?) I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot since from your response to Victor I can see there has been some misunderstanding. It's not that I mind criticism of what I love. My admiration for Joni does not make me blind to her shortcomings, she is no goddess to me. In my professional life, like in yours, criticism is the air that I breathe. What I objected to was the seemingly formalistic discussion of whether or not a certain song lyrics could be defined as a poem, based on structure rather than contents. I felt it belonged in a classroom rather than on the list. I did not argue in defence of Joni as much as in defence of her listeners. I'm sure my non-historian friends would hate it if I spoiled their experience of a historical novel or movie by analysing it from a professional point of view. If you are not trained - and it takes years, as you and AJ well know - you are either not interested or unable or unwilling to take it in, especially if it means that you have to change your previous understanding. The responses on the list to my questioning that "Men love war" is a valid generalisation of History exemplifies this. It's human. I did not intend to say that Joni is only about emotions, I did say I respond to her on an emotional level. Anyway, I realise that yours and AJ's sharing of your knowledge was on request of Bene, and some other list members appreciated it, too. On the other hand, some members seemed to want to disagree with you, and that was when I joined the discussion. So if despite your "promise" to ignore me in future you have read this far I hope that I succeeded in straightening out some of the misunderstandings. Peace, Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Richard Flynn Skickat: den 14 september 2007 21:59 Till: 'Victor Johnson'; ajfashion@att.net Kopia: missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: RE: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Victor, I should know better than to jump back in to this conversation. You say this: "I understand what you are saying and I also understand what Marion is saying. I don't really think anyone is really in disagreement here." I have to say that I am in complete and utter disagreement with Marion, whose argument is that even if we think "Bad Dreams" is not a poem, it shouldn't matter because it is Joni and we should pay attention to the emotional content, and cease all intellectual argument. Marion "cannot see the point in critical assessment of Joni's song lyrics as poetry." I would agree with him as long as they aren't being called poetry. Then I would see the point in critical assessment of Joni's song lyrics in their musical context. Is he saying we should only relate to Joni emotionally: why do you critics want to analyze what we love? You're ruining it for us. To my mind that is supremely condescending to Joni as an artist who ought to welcome serious critical attention to her work. While I'm sure Marion didn't _intend_ this, to say that Joni is all about emotion rather than intellect is implicitly sexist. She herself insists that she is a woman of heart AND mind. No, it's not all books and words, but neither does it make sense to treat Joni like the queen of our dreams. That "Bad Dreams" appeared as a poem--and this was certainly authorized by Joni and I hope she got paid handsomely for it--makes it fair game for criticism under the aesthetic criteria of poetry rather than fandom--people are free to reject the opinions of those who have spent their lives writing and publishing poetry and poetry criticism, but it is surely foolish to pretend that at least to them it doesn't matter. So yes, think Marion is wrong: he & I do not agree. It also matters because it makes Joni look bad. At least AJ and I love Joni as an artist. Our arguments were inspired by love of our difficult art and love of Joni Mitchell and her work. Here's what happens when the bloggers get hold of the "poem" and it's not a pretty picture: http://www.jossip.com/new-yorker/adventures-in-bad-poetry-20070912/ http://www.metafilter.com/64623/What-is-poetry-And-does-it-pay From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Victor Johnson Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:09 PM To: ajfashion@att.net Cc: Marion Leffler; rflynn@frontiernet.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry On Sep 14, 2007, at 8:49 AM, ajfashion@att.net wrote: > > > But if I get in the shower this morning and belt out a Mitchell > or Sondheim song, as I am wont to do, that doesn't mean > I'm a singer. I love it, I do it passionately, but it doesn't > make me a singer. > Yes, but there are plenty of people who sing for their own pleasure, who perhaps might not perform in public, but who are quite good, and could have amazing voices, that most people would never hear. In professional terms, no, they would not be considered singers, but in a more basic sense they are singers. I understand what you're saying, that there are people whose profession and lifelong pursuit is poetry. I majored in English Literature, I'm familiar with many poets (William Blake, William Wordsworth, Percy Shelly, John Keats, Dylan Thomas, Allen Ginsberg, Charles Bukowski, Wallace Stevens, W.H. Auden, etc...) At the same time, I believe there are people that have not studied poetry their whole life that can write good poetry. And if they write poetry, then they are poets, maybe not in the same sense as the ones I mentioned above. This discussion regarding poetry has been muddled from the beginning. I understand what you are saying and I also understand what Marion is saying. I don't really think anyone is really in disagreement here. Victor NP: Joshua Redman "Indian Song" (written by Wayne Shorter) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:39:57 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- [snip] > My admiration for Joni does not make me blind to her > shortcomings, she is no goddess to me. In my professional life, like in > yours, criticism is the air that I breathe. What I objected to was the > seemingly formalistic discussion of whether or not a certain song lyrics > could be defined as a poem, based on structure rather than contents. I felt > it belonged in a classroom rather than on the list. Marion, I know this wasn't addressed to me, but having been (too much) in this discussion, I want to respond to it. I don't recall anyone suggesting the discussion didn't belong on the list (though there were comments it was too academic/classroom/ intellectual). And the discussion, at any rate, absolutely belongs on the list. The list is about Joni Mitchell and if lyrics from her new album appear in The New Yorker as poetry, that discussion is completely on-topic. My declaration that the lyrics were not a poem was not "a formalistic discussion" (I wouldn't even go there, though I could, because it would be 1) inappropriate to the list and 2) take way too much time). Also, it was not simply the "structure," or lack thereof. (Even a cursory post about prosody would be too lengthy and probably too boring - --and therefore inappropriate--for the list.) The _presentation_ of the "content" of the lyrics--the imagery, the wording--was, in fact, discussed in some detail; in fact, for me that is the central reason it was clearly a lyric and not a poem. I will not repeat them here, as I have discussed this at length in previous posts. I find it pretty incredible that this discussion is being dismissed as something that should be discussed in a classroom. I'm certainly not demanding that anyone here agree with me, but what I've been posting is not a matter of opinion. What I really don't understand is the level of hostility, albeit civil and polite, about this discussion. I'd wager that everyone on this list knows a whole lot more about music, and musicians, and certainly Mitchell, than I do. I am happy to read and learn. If Mitchell wrote a song about butterflies and we had an entomologist (sp?) on the list, I'd welcome learning more about butterflies. Or if she wrote a sequence of songs and called them an opera, I'd again welcome the information an opera-expert might offer us on the subject. I certainly would never dismiss someone's passions for Mitchell and some other subject as belonging in the classroom. This list seems to be composed of extraordinarily smart and passionate and curious people, which is why I am so heartened to have found it. So I'm puzzled by a kind of anti-intellectualism (for want of a better word) rearing its head during a pretty basic discussion of the difference between poetry and lyrics. AJ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:54:23 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Mark L. Levinson" : -------------- [snip] >But I don't think a > clear line can be drawn between what's poetry > and what's not. I recall there was a fellow > who would take short items from the newspaper, > break them up into lines, and present them as > "found poetry." They worked because the reader > was willing to consider their intellectual and > emotional implications and the connotations of > their structure and shape, just as Duchamps' > urinal worked for the same reason. Actually there can be a clear line drawn between what is a poem and what isn't. There are bad poems and good poems; there are great poems, which someone doesn't particularly take to, and then there are great poems that change your life. There are poems by "minor" poets that can amplify your understanding of the world. There are "found" poems that are profound and accomplished, but that doesn't mean anyone can randomly cull lines from a newspaper article and call it a poem. Duchamps didn't attach a urinal to a wall and call it art out of nowhere--he was already an accomplished and brilliant artist, and an important intellectual force in modern art. However, had he done that as a complete unknown and people understood what he was doing, it would have still been art. I'm not making arbitrary rules about what a poem is, or who is a poet. The only thing I've been saying, over and over again, is that song lyrics and poems are different things. Neither's a superior pursuit; they certainly have more things in common than, say, poetry and sculpture in that they use the same tool, language, but they aren't the same thing. AJ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 17:31:56 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry You do not even try to understand what I'm saying, instead you keep insinuating things and now even calling me names. Interesting though that you couldn't resist reading my post. And if anybody is lecturing anybody it's you. I hope your students have the guts to challenge you - before you make them leave the room. By the way, Marion is usually a female name, despite the fact that you think you know better even on that subject. So much for formalism. Have a good life, Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: Richard Flynn [mailto:rflynn@frontiernet.net] Skickat: den 15 september 2007 16:29 Till: 'Marion Leffler'; 'Victor Johnson'; ajfashion@att.net Kopia: missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: RE: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry My gender assumption came from the spelling of your first name. Like Francis and Frances Marion is ordinarily male and Marian is ordinarily female . I'm sorry about that mistaken assumption. I am not sorry for calling you on your attempt to bully people and attempt to silence them on the list. You are doing it once again. Despite the messages being in direct response to a question, you say that they don't belong on the list. How noble of you to rise to the defense of Joni's listeners. Where the hell do you get off telling people what they can or cannot say here? oe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Marion Leffler Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 3:19 AM To: 'Richard Flynn'; 'Victor Johnson'; ajfashion@att.net Cc: missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Richard, first of all, I am a woman. And one of heart and mind, at that. (Interesting that you assumed I was a man. Shall we have a gender discussion next?) I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot since from your response to Victor I can see there has been some misunderstanding. It's not that I mind criticism of what I love. My admiration for Joni does not make me blind to her shortcomings, she is no goddess to me. In my professional life, like in yours, criticism is the air that I breathe. What I objected to was the seemingly formalistic discussion of whether or not a certain song lyrics could be defined as a poem, based on structure rather than contents. I felt it belonged in a classroom rather than on the list. I did not argue in defence of Joni as much as in defence of her listeners. I'm sure my non-historian friends would hate it if I spoiled their experience of a historical novel or movie by analysing it from a professional point of view. If you are not trained - and it takes years, as you and AJ well know - you are either not interested or unable or unwilling to take it in, especially if it means that you have to change your previous understanding. The responses on the list to my questioning that "Men love war" is a valid generalisation of History exemplifies this. It's human. I did not intend to say that Joni is only about emotions, I did say I respond to her on an emotional level. Anyway, I realise that yours and AJ's sharing of your knowledge was on request of Bene, and some other list members appreciated it, too. On the other hand, some members seemed to want to disagree with you, and that was when I joined the discussion. So if despite your "promise" to ignore me in future you have read this far I hope that I succeeded in straightening out some of the misunderstandings. Peace, Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Richard Flynn Skickat: den 14 september 2007 21:59 Till: 'Victor Johnson'; ajfashion@att.net Kopia: missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: RE: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Victor, I should know better than to jump back in to this conversation. You say this: "I understand what you are saying and I also understand what Marion is saying. I don't really think anyone is really in disagreement here." I have to say that I am in complete and utter disagreement with Marion, whose argument is that even if we think "Bad Dreams" is not a poem, it shouldn't matter because it is Joni and we should pay attention to the emotional content, and cease all intellectual argument. Marion "cannot see the point in critical assessment of Joni's song lyrics as poetry." I would agree with him as long as they aren't being called poetry. Then I would see the point in critical assessment of Joni's song lyrics in their musical context. Is he saying we should only relate to Joni emotionally: why do you critics want to analyze what we love? You're ruining it for us. To my mind that is supremely condescending to Joni as an artist who ought to welcome serious critical attention to her work. While I'm sure Marion didn't _intend_ this, to say that Joni is all about emotion rather than intellect is implicitly sexist. She herself insists that she is a woman of heart AND mind. No, it's not all books and words, but neither does it make sense to treat Joni like the queen of our dreams. That "Bad Dreams" appeared as a poem--and this was certainly authorized by Joni and I hope she got paid handsomely for it--makes it fair game for criticism under the aesthetic criteria of poetry rather than fandom--people are free to reject the opinions of those who have spent their lives writing and publishing poetry and poetry criticism, but it is surely foolish to pretend that at least to them it doesn't matter. So yes, think Marion is wrong: he & I do not agree. It also matters because it makes Joni look bad. At least AJ and I love Joni as an artist. Our arguments were inspired by love of our difficult art and love of Joni Mitchell and her work. Here's what happens when the bloggers get hold of the "poem" and it's not a pretty picture: http://www.jossip.com/new-yorker/adventures-in-bad-poetry-20070912/ http://www.metafilter.com/64623/What-is-poetry-And-does-it-pay From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Victor Johnson Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:09 PM To: ajfashion@att.net Cc: Marion Leffler; rflynn@frontiernet.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry On Sep 14, 2007, at 8:49 AM, ajfashion@att.net wrote: > > > But if I get in the shower this morning and belt out a Mitchell > or Sondheim song, as I am wont to do, that doesn't mean > I'm a singer. I love it, I do it passionately, but it doesn't > make me a singer. > Yes, but there are plenty of people who sing for their own pleasure, who perhaps might not perform in public, but who are quite good, and could have amazing voices, that most people would never hear. In professional terms, no, they would not be considered singers, but in a more basic sense they are singers. I understand what you're saying, that there are people whose profession and lifelong pursuit is poetry. I majored in English Literature, I'm familiar with many poets (William Blake, William Wordsworth, Percy Shelly, John Keats, Dylan Thomas, Allen Ginsberg, Charles Bukowski, Wallace Stevens, W.H. Auden, etc...) At the same time, I believe there are people that have not studied poetry their whole life that can write good poetry. And if they write poetry, then they are poets, maybe not in the same sense as the ones I mentioned above. This discussion regarding poetry has been muddled from the beginning. I understand what you are saying and I also understand what Marion is saying. I don't really think anyone is really in disagreement here. Victor NP: Joshua Redman "Indian Song" (written by Wayne Shorter) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 17:37:52 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Aj, thank you for responding so gracefully. I will not even try to explain myself once more as I see that we are so far apart on this matter we cannot find a common ground. Lets meet again on other topics concerning Jonis music and her lyrics. Marion _____ Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] Skickat: den 15 september 2007 16:40 Till: Marion Leffler; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Victor Johnson' Kopia: missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- [snip] > My admiration for Joni does not make me blind to her > shortcomings, she is no goddess to me. In my professional life, like in > yours, criticism is the air that I breathe. What I objected to was the > seemingly formalistic discussion of whether or not a certain song lyrics > could be defined as a poem, based on structure rather than contents. I felt > it belonged in a classroom rather than on the list. Marion, I know this wasn't addressed to me, but having been (too much) in this discussion, I want to respond to it. I don't recall anyone suggesting the discussion didn't belong on the list (though there were comments it was too academic/classroom/ intellectual). And the discussion, at any rate, absolutely belongs on the list. The list is about Joni Mitchell and if lyrics from her new album appear in The New Yorker as poetry, that discussion is completely on-topic. My declaration that the lyrics were not a poem was not "a formalistic discussion" (I wouldn't even go there, though I could, because it would be 1) inappropriate to the list and 2) take way too much time). Also, it was not simply the "structure," or lack thereof. (Even a cursory post about prosody would be too lengthy and probably too boring - --and therefore inappropriate--for the list.) The _presentation_ of the "content" of the lyrics--the imagery, the wording--was, in fact, discussed in some detail; in fact, for me that is the central reason it was clearly a lyric and not a poem. I will not repeat them here, as I have discussed this at length in previous posts. I find it pretty incredible that this discussion is being dismissed as something that should be discussed in a classroom. I'm certainly not demanding that anyone here agree with me, but what I've been posting is not a matter of opinion. What I really don't understand is the level of hostility, albeit civil and polite, about this discussion. I'd wager that everyone on this list knows a whole lot more about music, and musicians, and certainly Mitchell, than I do. I am happy to read and learn. If Mitchell wrote a song about butterflies and we had an entomologist (sp?) on the list, I'd welcome learning more about butterflies. Or if she wrote a sequence of songs and called them an opera, I'd again welcome the information an opera-expert might offer us on the subject. I certainly would never dismiss someone's passions for Mitchell and some other subject as belonging in the classroom. This list seems to be composed of extraordinarily smart and passionate and curious people, which is why I am so heartened to have found it. So I'm puzzled by a kind of anti-intellectualism (for want of a better word) rearing its head during a pretty basic discussion of the difference between poetry and lyrics. AJ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 17:19:36 +0100 From: Lucy Hone Subject: Re:JOni's bad poetry.. Hello everyone Out of Lurkdom for a moment but up to my neck in things, such as changing jobs etc., For what my view may add as relevance to this extended and heated topic my feelings are this..clears throat... I make no apologies for any views expressed herein! It is how I feel.. I have not read through everyone's comments and if someone else has expressed feelings similar to my own I aplogise for not acknowledging them. For me some of Joni's music is inaccessible stuff. I cannot listen to some of it as it is TOO JAZZ with screeching sax here and there and.... Oh just stuff I don't enjoy by any artist. It is not my type of music. It is unlikely that any of us have read Joni's lyrics before we have heard the songs played and orchestrated as Joni has wanted us to hear them.. why would we read them?..we are conditioned to listening to Joni as a singer..I am a "words person" and it is my escape hatch when the music is too bad... What I have found, though, is that whilst I do not enjoy Furry Sings the Blues I can read the following lines and lose myself in the imagery...To me its like reading TS Elliot... > There's a double bill murder at the New Daisy > The old girl's silent across the street > She's silent - waiting for the wrecker's beat > Silent - staring ar her stolen name > Diamond boys and satin dolls > Bourbon laughter- ghosts - history falls > To parking lots and shopping malls > As they tear down old Beale Street > Old Furry sings the blues > He points a bony finger at you and > "I don't like you" > Everybody laughs as if it's the old man's standard joke > But it's true > We're only welcome for our drink and smoke > > W.C. Handy I'm rich and I'm fay > And I'm not familiar with what you played > But I get such strong impressions of your hey day > Looking up and down old Beale Street > Ghosts of the darktown society > Come right out of the bricks at me > Like it's a Saturday night > They're in their finery > Dancing it up and making deals > Furry sings the blues > Why should I expect that old guy to give it to me true > Fallen to hard luck > And time and other thieves > While our limo is shining on his shanty street > Old Furry sings the blues I just love the words, they roll and engage in a way that is prevented when accompanied by her musical interpretation. My feeling is that people get either precious, or insecure about poetry. Precious because poetry can only be poetry, or insecure because they don't really read it much and have not had the time to realise that its not about intellect, or academia. Poetry, to quote a critic called VALERY, "is words dancing"... do you dance without a tune? did Joni write lyrics first and add music or have a good tune in her head and put some words in place? I have always loved poetry and was brought up by a mother who read it do us, we listened to it on the radio (not getting a television until 1969 when I was 12) so I come from a different standpoint of others but there is no magic to it really..It is what you are used to and if you are not used to poetry then you may or may not "get it". Some poetry to me is ghastly but to others To me poetry is brushstrokes of words that outline a picture for the reader to put in their colours. When you add the music, in some cases poetry can become a song.. although I do hate the mangling of Yeats The Second Coming by Joni.. It is atrocious (to me and what I feel about it is my opinion, like it if you will but I won't agree with you, I listened to half of it and moved to the next track) I would imagine that those of us who quote Joni daily do not SING the lyrics as they are being said..good God that would be tooo really strange, especially if you dont have Joni's phraseology or pitch. I had a conversation on holiday about the economy of words within some poetry and the woman I was talking to has been taking a masters in creative writing. One of the things she has been learning about is that an entire poem can encompass enormous events in three words. The example she gave me was "watching you leave".. Just how many ways could any of us interpret that? What does that evoke? could that be set to music? (please joni no) why would you want to? So I would say that Joni actually, for me, can be a really good source of poetic language and poetry itself.. I certainly prefer some of her words to her music..hang me if you want to, but that is how it is for me... Does it, in the end, really matter? Probably not a jot.. Do we like what we like of Joni's work? Yes we do.. Off to defrost a chicken Lucy on a beautiful autumn afternoon... in England ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:57:14 +0200 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Hello, I really hate it when discussions on the list end up with people not wanting to talk to each other, and I do so partly for egotistic reasons: we may end up missing out on really interesting discussions because some people don't want to be in the same 'room'. I feel privileged to be on this list with so many diverse opinions and insights, I don't want to see anyone staying out of discussions because of personal grudges. I don't want to take sides here, because I feel it is not my argument in the first place. And I couldn't because you argue in such ways that I find it hard to defend or accuse either of you. I disagree with Marion when she says that the discussion does not belong on the list: 1: I find it highly relevant and 2: EVERYTHING belongs on this list! We discuss politics and films and gardening and what have you. (The only thing I personally find inappropriate is long discussions about somebody's computer software problems; I also get annoyed when long discussions about politics are answered with ALL the previous emails attached. It takes a lot of scrolling if you are on digest. I have thought of asking if people would kindly consider deleting old emails in long discussions of all sorts and to keep discussions like the ones about computers off-line. I'd never tell anyone directly that this is inappropriate - who am I to decide??) On the other hand, I don't think any of Marion's emails amounted to bullying, but then they were not addressed to me. And I think that when someone offers you peace you should accept it. But this one goes both ways. Richard says "I'll avoid your emails in the future" and then Marion mocks him for reading them anyway. Marion apologizes elaborately and kindly for some of what she has said and gets accusations and anger back. Hello...? No she did not apologize for saying that the the discussion is inappropriate, but sometimes when you decide to apologize it is a big gesture and some things may slip. Why not be a little graceful and say, well I appreciate this opening but can I just say... etc.? Another point: I am fairly sure Marion is more often a girl's name than a boy's name, at least in French. Just do a google image search on the name... I'd think twice before I tell someone called Marion what kind of name Marion is.. ;-). But talking of names, when did Richard call Marion names?? Except for when he called her Marion? One thing I have noticed about arguments of this type is that the two persons who get into them (I won't mention any names, but if someone feels I'm talking about them it might not be accidental!) typically have one thing in common, namely that they are fairly relentless in their interpretation of the other person's views. You read a response from someone that you think is a little aggressive, and think, wow, someone's in a bad mood - and then someone picks up on it and responds in kind, where others might have been gentler, thinking this might be a misunderstanding or the person has a bad day or whatever. They end up claiming they certainly never want to talk to each other again - which is funny because they sure seem to have something in common! I really wish you'd let this go because you don't know each other and are already making huge assumptions about each other. Peace, please... and let's get back to discussing something interesting! Best Bene On 9/15/07, Marion Leffler wrote: > You do not even try to understand what I'm saying, instead you keep > insinuating things and now even calling me names. > Interesting though that you couldn't resist reading my post. > And if anybody is lecturing anybody it's you. I hope your students have the > guts to challenge you - before you make them leave the room. > By the way, Marion is usually a female name, despite the fact that you think > you know better even on that subject. So much for formalism. > Have a good life, > Marion > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fren: Richard Flynn [mailto:rflynn@frontiernet.net] > Skickat: den 15 september 2007 16:29 > Till: 'Marion Leffler'; 'Victor Johnson'; ajfashion@att.net > Kopia: missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' > Dmne: RE: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > My gender assumption came from the spelling of your first name. Like Francis > and Frances Marion is ordinarily male and Marian is ordinarily female . I'm > sorry about that mistaken assumption. I am not sorry for calling you on your > attempt to bully people and attempt to silence them on the list. You are > doing it once again. Despite the messages being in direct response to a > question, you say that they don't belong on the list. How noble of you to > rise to the defense of Joni's listeners. Where the hell do you get > off telling people what they can or cannot say here? > > > > oe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Marion Leffler > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 3:19 AM > To: 'Richard Flynn'; 'Victor Johnson'; ajfashion@att.net > Cc: missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' > Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > Richard, first of all, I am a woman. And one of heart and mind, at that. > (Interesting that you assumed I was a man. Shall we have a gender discussion > next?) > I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot since from your response to Victor I > can see there has been some misunderstanding. It's not that I mind criticism > of what I love. My admiration for Joni does not make me blind to her > shortcomings, she is no goddess to me. In my professional life, like in > yours, criticism is the air that I breathe. What I objected to was the > seemingly formalistic discussion of whether or not a certain song lyrics > could be defined as a poem, based on structure rather than contents. I felt > it belonged in a classroom rather than on the list. I did not argue in > defence of Joni as much as in defence of her listeners. I'm sure my > non-historian friends would hate it if I spoiled their experience of a > historical novel or movie by analysing it from a professional point of view. > If you are not trained - and it takes years, as you and AJ well know - you > are either not interested or unable or unwilling to take it in, especially > if it means that you have to change your previous understanding. The > responses on the list to my questioning that "Men love war" is a valid > generalisation of History exemplifies this. It's human. > > I did not intend to say that Joni is only about emotions, I did say I > respond to her on an emotional level. > > Anyway, I realise that yours and AJ's sharing of your knowledge was on > request of Bene, and some other list members appreciated it, too. On the > other hand, some members seemed to want to disagree with you, and that was > when I joined the discussion. > > So if despite your "promise" to ignore me in future you have read this far > I hope that I succeeded in straightening out some of the misunderstandings. > Peace, > Marion > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Richard > Flynn > Skickat: den 14 september 2007 21:59 > Till: 'Victor Johnson'; ajfashion@att.net > Kopia: missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' > Dmne: RE: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > Victor, I should know better than to jump back in to this conversation. > > > You say this: "I understand what you are saying and I also understand > what Marion is saying. I don't really think anyone is really in > disagreement here." > > I have to say that I am in complete and utter disagreement with Marion, > whose argument is that even if we think "Bad Dreams" is not a poem, it > shouldn't matter because it is Joni and we should pay attention to the > emotional content, and cease all intellectual argument. Marion "cannot see > the point in critical assessment of Joni's song lyrics as poetry." I would > agree with him as long as they aren't being called poetry. Then I would see > the point in critical assessment of Joni's song lyrics in their musical > context. > > Is he saying we should only relate to Joni emotionally: why do you critics > want to analyze what we love? You're ruining it for us. To my mind that is > supremely condescending to Joni as an artist who ought to welcome serious > critical attention to her work. While I'm sure Marion didn't _intend_ this, > to say that Joni is all about emotion rather than intellect is implicitly > sexist. She herself insists that she is a woman of heart AND mind. No, it's > not all books and words, but neither does it make sense to treat Joni like > the queen of our dreams. > > That "Bad Dreams" appeared as a poem--and this was certainly authorized by > Joni and I hope she got paid handsomely for it--makes it fair game for > criticism under the aesthetic criteria of poetry rather than fandom--people > are free to reject the opinions of those who have spent their lives writing > and publishing poetry and poetry criticism, but it is surely foolish to > pretend that at least to them it doesn't matter. So yes, think Marion is > wrong: he & I do not agree. > > It also matters because it makes Joni look bad. At least AJ and I love Joni > as an artist. Our arguments were inspired by love of our difficult art and > love of Joni Mitchell and her work. Here's what happens when the bloggers > get hold of the "poem" and it's not a pretty picture: > > http://www.jossip.com/new-yorker/adventures-in-bad-poetry-20070912/ > > > http://www.metafilter.com/64623/What-is-poetry-And-does-it-pay > > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Victor > Johnson > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:09 PM > To: ajfashion@att.net > Cc: Marion Leffler; rflynn@frontiernet.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni > LIST' > Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > On Sep 14, 2007, at 8:49 AM, ajfashion@att.net wrote: > > > > > > > But if I get in the shower this morning and belt out a Mitchell > > or Sondheim song, as I am wont to do, that doesn't mean > > I'm a singer. I love it, I do it passionately, but it doesn't > > make me a singer. > > > > Yes, but there are plenty of people who sing for their own pleasure, > who perhaps might not perform in public, but who are quite good, and > could have amazing voices, that most people would never hear. In > professional terms, no, they would not be considered singers, but in > a more basic sense they are singers. I understand what you're > saying, that there are people whose profession and lifelong pursuit > is poetry. I majored in English Literature, I'm familiar with many > poets (William Blake, William Wordsworth, Percy Shelly, John Keats, > Dylan Thomas, Allen Ginsberg, Charles Bukowski, Wallace Stevens, W.H. > Auden, etc...) At the same time, I believe there are people that > have not studied poetry their whole life that can write good > poetry. And if they write poetry, then they are poets, maybe not in > the same sense as the ones I mentioned above. > > This discussion regarding poetry has been muddled from the > beginning. I understand what you are saying and I also understand > what Marion is saying. I don't really think anyone is really in > disagreement here. > > Victor > > NP: Joshua Redman "Indian Song" (written by Wayne Shorter) ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #284 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)