From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #283 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, September 15 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 283 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- SV: Jonis' bad poetry ["Marion Leffler" ] Prince Gig last night sjc ["Ross, Les" ] Joni's NYC Art Exhibition [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Joni's NYC Art Exhibition [RoseMJoy@aol.com] fest dvds lots of JC ["mike pritchard" ] RE: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [ajfashion@att.net] Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [ajfashion@att.net] Re: Jonis' bad poetry [Michael Flaherty ] Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [missblux@googlemail.com] Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [Victor Johnson ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #282 [StDoherty@aol.com] Raveen curls [LCStanley7@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:18:41 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Hi Monika, and everybody else who might be interested, I do agree with you, and my posting about history was not intended to lecture anybody or to be critical of Joni's lyrics "as history". Actually, quite the opposite. But the Internet, fascinating media as it is, does have its limits. Since we cannot see each other or know each other's personalities, meaning usually conveyed by body language and tone of voice and situated knowledge gets lost. What I was trying to say was that I for one cannot see the point in critical assessment of Joni's song lyrics as poetry - or history- in an academic sense. I used history as an example because that is what I know best. I did point out that I was not expecting Joni's song lyrics to be "good" history in an academic sense but to touch me emotionally. And emotionally, there is truth in the statement Men love war. - - I guess I was just a little tired of the seemingly endless and rather formalistic discussion about Joni's good or bad poetry. I realise now from the reaction I got from some people on the list that I should just have ignored it, and I will in future. Have a nice day, Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Motitan@aol.com Skickat: den 14 september 2007 05:55 Till: ajfashion@att.net; joni@smoe.org Dmne: Re: Jonis' bad poetry "Men love war! That's what history' s for. History..." I actually really like these lyrics so I find it ironic that there is a discussion about the validity of them. Certainly this is no history lesson nor is Joni going into the dynamics of war. How could you fit why wars start and all those reasons in a song when we can't even talk about that simply in conversation? It surely isn't simple and the point of the song isn't that topic. With Joni's statement, "men love war," she is saying what it seems like. We as human beings have always known war. The one thing that doesn't change is war. Sure, where it happens, why it happens, how it happens--all that changes but there has always been war and there always will be war. As long as the human species continues on, there will be war sadly. We as people are the reason behind war. That is all Joni is saying I believe. I don't necessarily think it is an issue of trying to place the fault of war on men and men only. I don't think the idea of gender is too important in these lyrics though certainly men have been the ones to start war as they are the ones in power. Seemingly, "men love war" because there is always a war somewhere on the brink. If they didn't "love war" why would war always exist? I think that is all she is saying. Of course you could get into the specifics and point out that this man and that man and your neighbor and your mailman and people on this list and the cashier at the store you went to don't love war but Joni is simply stating her opinion that obviously there are those who do love war as war always exists... - -Monika ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:07:40 +0100 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: Prince Gig last night sjc ....it was just kinda cool to walk into the auditorium last night to watch one of Prince's 21 London gigs with the songs from Hejira playing on the PA. Cool too, if a little (hah!) narcissistic, to have a bunch of famous folk singing Prince's praises shown on the screens. The last of those lauding the funky one being our Joni. She said something about him throwing the best parties in Hollywood or somesuch. I think this may have been from some award show or something he was given recently. Joni's 'bit' showed her against a backdrop of her recent 'green' images. Anyway, Prince did his thing with elan and verve and the place was jumping. Elton John, in the audience, got up there and sang a souled out Long and Winding Road. Les (london) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 05:44:39 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Joni's NYC Art Exhibition It will be installed by the Violet Ray Gallery, at Openhouse, 201 Mullberry Street, in the Village. The opening is Sept 25th (invitation only) and will be on display until Oct 1st or 2nd. Rosie in NJ ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 05:51:31 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's NYC Art Exhibition A VISIONARY RAY OF LIGHT Celebrated Artist/Singer _Joni Mitchell_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joni_Mitchell) exhibits powerful Mixed Media Originals curated by _Violet Ray Gallery_ (http://www.blogger.com/www.violetraygallery.com) in Nolitabs newest green space, Openhouse Violet Ray Gallery in New York City is proud to curate one facet of Joni Mitchellbs three brilliant new artistic endeavors. Singer/songwriter and artist Joni Mitchell, a timeless forerunner of social and spiritual commentary, has completed a body of work for exhibition dealing with the consequences of war and the prevailing human condition. Cutting through ever-present media propaganda, Mitchellbs new photographic exposition b Green Flag Songb is a poetic discourse of humanities struggle with itself. Referencing popular media, Mitchell filters through conventional imagery, unveiling her personal vision and offering a precious visual tool for communicating the nightmarish realities of the world we live in. In the hopes of fostering a collective human awareness, this body of work narrates the historical and current strife born from aggression and fear and the consequential repetitive demise that ensues. The power of the work expresses the need for a change of consciousness. Mitchell has also recently completed what she considers to be bas serious a work as Ibve ever doneb referring to Shine, her new album produced with Concord Music Group on the Hear Music Label. Most of the lyrical content reflects Mitchellbs social and theological consciousness and her longtime plea for the health of the planet. A true Renaissance artist in every sense of the word, Mitchell also debuted a ballet bThe Fiddle and the Drumb with the Alberta Ballet in Calgary earlier this year. Based on Mitchellbs music she served as co-creator and artistic director. All three bodies of work support Mitchellbs extraordinary ability as an artist. Green Flag Song is being curated by Violet Ray Gallery at OPENHOUSE located at 201 Mulberry Street. OPENHOUSE is a socially and environmentally responsible venue whose goal is to promote sustainability through direct action or support environmental awareness by contribution. OPENHOUSE allocates five percent of exhibition revenue to an environmentally conscious or socially responsible organization of the clientbs choice. Violet Ray Gallery specializes in pairing an artistbs work with the most appropriate spatial location. Temporarily creating a dramatic backdrop on which the artistbs work can be most successfully presented. The goal is to achieve a potent manifestation of the artistbs vision through a precise setting and space. ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:13:52 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: fest dvds lots of JC I have an extremely urgent translation to deal with but a parcel containing three DVDs of Fest 2007 has just dropped through the letter box (grazie, Adriano). What's a poor boy to do? mike in bcn npomdvd - Jenny Goodspeed and Les Ross - 'Jonah' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:36:52 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: RE: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Jim Kauffman" jkauff@verizon.net>: -------------- > > I'm bewildered by the vehemence of this discussion as well, but for > different reasons. I'm new to this list, but this discussion sounds very > much like the criticism of Joni's artwork. I'm surprised that the members of > this list would repeat all those regrettable errors. > > Poetry is what it is. In 1955, Alan Ginsberg was not "poetry". The New > Yorker published early poems by John Ashbery, who was also accused of > writing "not poetry". Some people have never accepted free verse as poetry. > > Somehow I expected a little more wisdom, perspective, and acceptance from a > group of people who love the art of a woman who has had to endure so many > comments beginning with "But you're not...." > > David Remnick, the editor of the New Yorker, is one of the most intelligent > and perceptive people in the arts. He's way beyond my abilities to judge > anything. If he thinks these lyrics are a poem, they're a poem. Maybe good, > maybe not. End of discussion. Time will prove him right or wrong, as has > been the history and tradition of the New Yorker. > Hi Jim K, Actually Ginsberg was always taken pretty seriously as a poet (by academics and other poets alike), even in 1955; his father was a pretty well-known poet and while people may have been shocked at Ginsberg's subject-matter, his incredible skills, in the Whitman/Pound tradition were always recognized as viable poetry. I don't know who said John Ashbery wasn't writing poetry-- his first book won the Yale Younger Prize when he was in his twenties (chosen by W.H. Auden). You can't get more deeply in the mainstream of the American poetry tradition than that. FWIW my feelings about David Remnick are in complete concert with yours. However, I seriously doubt he has anything to do with the poems that appear in his magazine, or in the choosing of him. Mitchell's lyrics appearing as a poem was a decision by Alice Quinn or Deborah Garrison or someone in the poetry department. These people who have never accepted free verse as poetry known nothing about poetry, BTW. And they're not only throwing out most everything in the twentieth century but most everything written before Chaucer. So I'd suggest those "people" pick up a book or two, before the (metaphorical) sun sets. Nobody's picking on Mitchell. She's successful beyond most people's wildest dreams. I'm here because I've lover her music for thirty years. She is a genius. That she can't make a couture garment or cook an Escoffier-level meal or operate on the human nerve system or write a poem in no way undermines my belief that she is a genius. Best, AJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:49:25 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from Victor Johnson : -------------- > On Sep 13, 2007, at 9:42 PM, ajfashion@att.net wrote: > > > A poem is a recognizable thing, just as is a beautiful piece > > of pottery by a skilled potter, a painting by a skilled painter, > > an etude by a skilled composer. What happens, though, > > in our culture, is that, because everyone uses language, > > many people think what they joy down in their notebooks > > is poetry. It's not. I'm happy if it gives them and their loved > > ones pleasure; I'm all for personal expression; but no one > > writes a good poem without a long apprenticeship and an > > unfathomable committment to pursue something that offers > > few worldly rewards. > > > I would not agree with this statement. Suppose the discussion was > about music. We could sit here all day and argue about what is music > and what isn't. Where I go to school, at Georgia State University > music school, there are some people with the attitude that the only > music worth listening to is classical...to them anything else is a > waste of time and they don't consider it real music, which they can > believe if they wish, though its a very narrow view of what is music > and what isn't and extremely ignorant to be honest. As far as poetry > is concerned, a song lyric can certainly be considered a poem. Song > are often incredibly poetic and many can stand alone without music. > > Sure, there are people who have no talent though maybe think they > do. And yes, there are poets who write poetry (I studied with one at > Guilford, Ann Deagon.) But just because someone is not a recognized, > accomplished poet/scholar does not mean they can not write a good/ > beautiful poem. When I lived in Asheville, I often went to poetry > readings/open mics and heard several poems I thought were rather good > by poets who were rather young actually. My friend Holley's daughter > Laura ( who Paz has met) wrote some poetry around when she was 14 > that completely blew me away. She's currently in her senior year at > Davidson School of the Arts in Augusta, one of the best schools in > the country, and 14th in her class. > > Anyway, there is no law that determines what is a poem and what > isn't. It's certainly something that is subjective. And someone > could write song that totally sucks. But that doesn't mean its not a > song. > > > > Victor Victor, You're conflating two issues here. Certainly getting a book published doesn't mean the poems therein are any good (you have no idea how many bad poems are published in the United States each year). Virtually all of Emily Dickinson never saw the light of day in her lifetime, and that in no way changed the fact that she was one of two greatest American poets of the nineteenth century. But if I get in the shower this morning and belt out a Mitchell or Sondheim song, as I am wont to do, that doesn't mean I'm a singer. I love it, I do it passionately, but it doesn't make me a singer. I thought the only classical music is real music argument died in the 1960s, but evidently it's still alive in Georgia (and probably somewhere in Mississippi where I live). Certain songs can exist without their lyrics but only when a great musician (usually jazz) is interpreting them; otherwise it's elevator music. That's all I'm saying. Most people wouldn't entrust their bodies or their furnaces or their cars to someone who fixes these things "in their spare time" or "when they're inspired to"; but for some reason our culture seems to be incapable of understanding that poets serve a long apprenticeship, and the making of a good poem is not a casual or an accidental thing, that it relects years of practice and learning and mistakes and hundreds of rewrites, etc. So, in fact, it's not a matter of opinion whether something is or is not a poem. It is a matter of opinion if one likes a poem or not (there are many great poems whose poems I don't care for at all, but I recognize they are nonetheless great poets. WCWilliams for one.). Best, AJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 06:58:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: Jonis' bad poetry Marion Leffler wrote: >>>I still don't get all the fuss. If you do not want to regard these song lyrics as poems, it's up to you. Your critical-aesthetic discussions are intellectual excercises for your pleasure, and anybody else*s who cares to take part of them. Well, for some of us it's what we do for a living, so it's a bit more than fun. I teach English and my wife, who does not have a high opinion of Joni's paintings (to be as kind as possible) teaches art (both college level). I certainly wouldn't bring her lyrics into my classroom. And yet ... I agree with you, in a way. If someone enjoys Joni's lyrics without the music or gets something from her paintings, what do I care? Michael Flaherty - --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:33:58 +0200 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Hey all.... I don't have much to contribute to the definition of poetry, but I feel like saying that given that AJ is a poet and Richard teaches poetry, I found it really interesting that they have both looked at the song and immediately thought: that's not a poem! There is a whole world of knowledge behind these statements that I have no insight into and I actually feel quite privileged that I can just go on-line and ask what this means. So thanks a lot for the answers. Best Bene Thinking about something I want to ask Marion about re. history...! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:08:42 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry On Sep 14, 2007, at 8:49 AM, ajfashion@att.net wrote: > > > But if I get in the shower this morning and belt out a Mitchell > or Sondheim song, as I am wont to do, that doesn't mean > I'm a singer. I love it, I do it passionately, but it doesn't > make me a singer. > Yes, but there are plenty of people who sing for their own pleasure, who perhaps might not perform in public, but who are quite good, and could have amazing voices, that most people would never hear. In professional terms, no, they would not be considered singers, but in a more basic sense they are singers. I understand what you're saying, that there are people whose profession and lifelong pursuit is poetry. I majored in English Literature, I'm familiar with many poets (William Blake, William Wordsworth, Percy Shelly, John Keats, Dylan Thomas, Allen Ginsberg, Charles Bukowski, Wallace Stevens, W.H. Auden, etc...) At the same time, I believe there are people that have not studied poetry their whole life that can write good poetry. And if they write poetry, then they are poets, maybe not in the same sense as the ones I mentioned above. This discussion regarding poetry has been muddled from the beginning. I understand what you are saying and I also understand what Marion is saying. I don't really think anyone is really in disagreement here. Victor NP: Joshua Redman "Indian Song" (written by Wayne Shorter) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:59:20 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Victor, I should know better than to jump back in to this conversation. You say this: "I understand what you are saying and I also understand what Marion is saying. I don't really think anyone is really in disagreement here." I have to say that I am in complete and utter disagreement with Marion, whose argument is that even if we think "Bad Dreams" is not a poem, it shouldn't matter because it is Joni and we should pay attention to the emotional content, and cease all intellectual argument. Marion "cannot see the point in critical assessment of Joni's song lyrics as poetry." I would agree with him as long as they aren't being called poetry. Then I would see the point in critical assessment of Joni's song lyrics in their musical context. Is he saying we should only relate to Joni emotionally: why do you critics want to analyze what we love? You're ruining it for us. To my mind that is supremely condescending to Joni as an artist who ought to welcome serious critical attention to her work. While I'm sure Marion didn't _intend_ this, to say that Joni is all about emotion rather than intellect is implicitly sexist. She herself insists that she is a woman of heart AND mind. No, it's not all books and words, but neither does it make sense to treat Joni like the queen of our dreams. That "Bad Dreams" appeared as a poem--and this was certainly authorized by Joni and I hope she got paid handsomely for it--makes it fair game for criticism under the aesthetic criteria of poetry rather than fandom--people are free to reject the opinions of those who have spent their lives writing and publishing poetry and poetry criticism, but it is surely foolish to pretend that at least to them it doesn't matter. So yes, think Marion is wrong: he & I do not agree. It also matters because it makes Joni look bad. At least AJ and I love Joni as an artist. Our arguments were inspired by love of our difficult art and love of Joni Mitchell and her work. Here's what happens when the bloggers get hold of the "poem" and it's not a pretty picture: http://www.jossip.com/new-yorker/adventures-in-bad-poetry-20070912/ http://www.metafilter.com/64623/What-is-poetry-And-does-it-pay From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Victor Johnson Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 2:09 PM To: ajfashion@att.net Cc: Marion Leffler; rflynn@frontiernet.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry On Sep 14, 2007, at 8:49 AM, ajfashion@att.net wrote: > > > But if I get in the shower this morning and belt out a Mitchell > or Sondheim song, as I am wont to do, that doesn't mean > I'm a singer. I love it, I do it passionately, but it doesn't > make me a singer. > Yes, but there are plenty of people who sing for their own pleasure, who perhaps might not perform in public, but who are quite good, and could have amazing voices, that most people would never hear. In professional terms, no, they would not be considered singers, but in a more basic sense they are singers. I understand what you're saying, that there are people whose profession and lifelong pursuit is poetry. I majored in English Literature, I'm familiar with many poets (William Blake, William Wordsworth, Percy Shelly, John Keats, Dylan Thomas, Allen Ginsberg, Charles Bukowski, Wallace Stevens, W.H. Auden, etc...) At the same time, I believe there are people that have not studied poetry their whole life that can write good poetry. And if they write poetry, then they are poets, maybe not in the same sense as the ones I mentioned above. This discussion regarding poetry has been muddled from the beginning. I understand what you are saying and I also understand what Marion is saying. I don't really think anyone is really in disagreement here. Victor NP: Joshua Redman "Indian Song" (written by Wayne Shorter) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:18:31 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from Victor Johnson : -------------- > On Sep 14, 2007, at 8:49 AM, ajfashion@att.net wrote: > > > > But if I get in the shower this morning and belt out a Mitchell > > or Sondheim song, as I am wont to do, that doesn't mean > > I'm a singer. I love it, I do it passionately, but it doesn't > > make me a singer. > > > > Yes, but there are plenty of people who sing for their own pleasure, > who perhaps might not perform in public, but who are quite good, and > could have amazing voices, that most people would never hear. Then they would be considered under what I'm going to call the "Emily Dickinson" clause of my argument, which I've already covered. Unknown, unrecorded, and / or unpublished does not mean someone is not a poet or a great singer or a great songwriter. _All I am saying_ is that poems and lyrics are not interchangeable. One is not better than the other; they are simply different. The New Yorker could have cleared this all up simply by publishing "Bad Dreams' as Lyrics by Joni Mitchell, rather than Poetry by Joni Mitchell. AJ, whose head is spinning and whose singing is awful ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:32:48 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: Song Lyrics: intended or error? Interesting question. These lyrics were cut and pasted verbatim from the advance press sheet that I received. Hard to tell! Les - -----Original Message----- I haven't posted in a long time, but I'm leaving lurkdom briefly to ask a question I hope hasn't already been asked about lyrics from Shine. In Hana, one of the lines, as set reported on jonimitchell.com, is "Dig in your heals." Should that be "heels" instead ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:50:12 EDT From: StDoherty@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #282 In a message dated 09/14/2007 3:14:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org writes: Subject: re: Joni's bad poetry? I have a poem Glad for Remix one and two Something something weak in the knees Don't want to be greedy but I'm asking When can we have number three ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 01:42:10 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Raveen curls Hi Ya'll, It is written, "Raveen curls" in Harry's House in the Joni Mitchell Complete songbook. Thanks Joni!!!! Way cool!!! Here's a cute ad: http://learning2share.blogspot.com/2007/05/ebony-ad-1970-hair-professionals.ht ml Love, Laura ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #283 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)