From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #282 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, September 14 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 282 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JMDL Digest V2007 #355 ["millies" ] re: Joni's bad poetry? ["Mark L. Levinson" ] Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics [David Marine ] Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc [jeannie ] 'Bad Dreams' in the New Yorker [Chuck Eisenhardt ] Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [ajfashion@att.net] Re: Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics [Victor Johnson ] Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [ajfashion@att.net] RE: spam: SV: Night of the iguana ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics [ajfashion@att.net] Re: Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics [ajfashion@att.net] Re: SV: Jonis' bad poetry ["Randy Remote" ] Joni poet [] Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [Victor Johnson ] Re: Jonis' bad poetry [Motitan@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:40:58 +1000 From: "millies" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2007 #355 Vietnam Memorial Wall Defaced This Weekend sad........ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:33:12 +0300 From: "Mark L. Levinson" Subject: re: Joni's bad poetry? Mags wrote: > It's probably an old > discussion, but I'd like to know how you distinguish poetry from > lyrics and why you consider this one to be bad poetry. On the first question, let me quote Arthur Penn, although he was writing about the movies: you can say one thing and show another. It's also true of songs: the lyrics can say one thing while the music implies another. The music for "Big Yellow Taxi" is merry, though the lyrics aren't that much less bitter than the Shine album's lyrics. There's even a little of the same over-the-top exaggeration. They paved Paradise? Wouldn't it be enough to say that they paved the old playground? But the music tweaks the word "Paradise" with an incorrect stress, and that way the exaggeration sounds like nothing but a bit of calypso humor. So lyrics don't need to be good stand-alone poetry if they can rely on help from the music. On the second point, let me quote William Saroyan: anyone who believes in anything to the exclusion of a certain doubt about all things has got to be a lousy writer, because what can you say if the answer is already in? What we get from Joni's lyric/poem is her opinion that the answer is already in, so no wonder she resorts to overfamiliar phrases. - ------------------------------------------------ Mark L. Levinson - nosnivel@netvision.net.il - ------------------------------------------------ Mark discourses to fellow Israeli techwriters in The Why of Style, at http://www.elephant.org.il/ - ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:08:48 -0700 From: David Marine Subject: Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics Hi, Joni list! This whole issue got a lot of play when The Complete Poems and Lyrics came out. For me, it's much ado about nothing, and is bordering on (dare I say it) pedantic effrontery! It's particularly bizarre that this discussion goes round and round after a century of poets who have worked to expand the concept of what "poetry" is. If the poetry editor of the New Yorker wants to publish Joni's lyrics as a poem, more power to her. I suspect that she chose "Strong and Wrong" more for its relevant theme than for its literary virtues (and I agree with Richard and AJ that it does not read very well on the page). I'm not sure that the New Yorker is the country's most "prestigious venue" for poetry. What about the New York Review of Books? At any rate, I don't think anyone should turn to Conde Nast to tell them what is or is not poetry. What's the point of getting too caught up in semantics? So far, the distinctions that I've seen made here between poetry and lyrics (a poem has its own internal music and rhythm, etc.) touch on some of the issues that one deals with when translating poetry. There are those who would argue that poetry cannot or should not be translated into a different language, or re-structured into a song: that too much is lost or perverted. I'm in the camp that likes "Slouching" and "Love". I also like the gorgeous way that she worked with the T.S. Eliot lines in "Moon at the Window". I've always assumed that this was an offshoot of her work on Mingus. Did I miss the discussion of the sanctity of Eliot's lyrics? Serious poetry did well in the 20th century, but it's not flourishing right now. Few read it, and fewer still have the ability to read it with a critical eye (or ear). Outside of academic circles, I'm not sure anyone does. So I understand when those who love poetry fight the good fight. They're attempting to protect what's left of "serious" poetry, and see "lyrics as poetry", rap, poetry "slams" and such as a threat to the delicate, divine, and inspired work of those who are writing within more traditional parameters. I can see both sides (now), but I don't see what's served by drawing up these "borderlines". Looking forward to the continuing discussion... David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:43:53 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry sjc It could be that Joni is simply saying something like what I may say, "had this world been under the stewardship of the matriarchs all along, we wouldn't be in this war nor in any other war that has ever been fought since the beginning of mankind's existence, (unless the matriarch would have been some sort of jealous sadist along the lines of Ivan The Impaler). But since it's been a patriarchal society in just about all of history's cultures and civilizations, the hunter/gatherer/warrior masculine side takes over. Resolve for men in power came/comes through war. Tragedy! Since woman brings life to this world, she inherently tends to be more of a sensitive, nurturing, care-giver. Yet to be fair to the men, women's flaws can also be a ball-breaking affair for many men and women, too. Many women love to be controlling and jealous and always want to be the #1 under any situation and that's a ball-breaking situation, but not enough to go and train men to kill, like some vicarious thrill, I don't think. I don't have many women friends because of their controlling, jealous ways. These days, I'm having to deal with two women who are very jealous and destroying any love that could be--my mother and a supposed good friend who turned her back on me so cold and cruel like, just because Fr. Delaney said I was a, "good soul," and spoke nice things about me in front of a group of us who were with him a week before he died at his last supper on a dining table. He didn't tell her nor any of the other people who were around--and just for that, she got all the women to stay away from me as their men didn't, making it worse. Those women all ignored me at the Rosary and Burial and that hurt so much because I wanted to express my sorrow through my writings and discuss all the good he did in his life.. All this anger and for what? And I thought all along they were "Mother Mary gals," who have a strong heart when the men in their lives get weak. Disappointed, Jean PS: And just because Fr. Delaney was a priest did not make him a pedophile. Please don't let that ugly thought get in the way of who Fr. Jim Delaney was--and he is what a call, a real man. Fr. Delaney, a very strong Irishman, born and raised in Belfast, when the Protestants and Catholics were having it out in blood, I imagine his anger and compassion were being tested but he chose to carry a Rosary instead of a gun. The driving force that made him the wonderful, extraordinary healing and wise man he grew up to be and obviously not a man of war in the least and as strong as a redwood tree that no one could bring down and those who tried had/have to end look up towards the sky to get a glimpse of it all to understand why! Marion Leffler wrote: On second thought, I can't resist commenting on the Men love war clichi. Which men and who says? Oscar Wilde with his romantic notions of masculinity and noble wars, a typical product of his culture? Generals? Has anybody asked the soldiers in Afghanistan, in Iraqu or elsewhere? My sons, for example, refused their mandatory army education, and they are not the only ones. Lots of young American men refused to go to war in Vietnam and had to flee their own country because of their refusal. There is countless evidence of men who do not love war. (This is not an argument with you, Joseph, just a comment in general). Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: Marion Leffler [mailto:marionleffler@telia.com] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:25 Till: 'Joseph Palis'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Hi Joseph, good points! Let me just add that I think Shadows and Light is by far a better presentation of a popular view of the nature of history than those lines about war as History in Strong and Wrong. At least there is some complexity in Shadows and Light. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Joseph Palis Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:08 Till: 'Joni LIST' Dmne: RE : SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry I agree, Marion. Not an historian here (although I have taken Cultures of History grad classes) but I will also add that historiographies we have come to know and ones that came out in popular history books are usually from a perspective of one historian and should not be taken as the last word on the matter. There are so many neglected narratives/fragments of history that are missing in a significant number of history books simply because some of them are 'unthinkable' (e.g. Haitian revolution in the late 1790s; massacre of Filipinos in the hands of their 'liberators' at the turn of the 1900s). However, I think Joni is making a point when she said about "men love war". After all Oscar Wilde once said that war will always have a fascination for people (although he used the word "men") and it may have propeled much of the global changes that occurred in the last centuries and yes, even millennia. Not that I buy this argument necessarily because it reinforces that there is only one linear type of historical narrative that people should know (like what you said, what about other histories? or Other histories; or even other Other histories; or subjugated knowledges that Foucault mentioned famously in his "Society Must Be Defended" lectures a few years before he died). For me, Joni's lyrics below captured a prevailing notion most of us have about history and histories. I hope she is being sarcastic here because if that is how she sums of the whole universe of histories then I wil be inclined to believe that her perspective of history/ies is a bit outmoded. Not wanting to distract any of your discussion from Joni's lyrics. Joseph in Chapel Hill (who, of late, has been having bad dreams too but will not say that bad dreams can be good) Marion Leffler a icrit : Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history per se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making up our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history of mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention just a few. Marion _____ Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: Re: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a professional > historian, the lines > "Strong and wrong you win-- > Only because > That's the way its always been. > Men love war! > That's what history' s for. > History... > A mass--murder mystery... > His story" > bug me. >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to look at the history of the last couple of millennia. - --AJ - --------------------------------- Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail - --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:46:54 -0700 From: David Marine Subject: New Yorker / Poetry Hello again, list! I guess I should double check my homework before turning it it. In my last post I talked about Strong and Wrong, when of course it's Bad Dreams are Good. Sorry for the error. I'll stand by whatever else I said in the post until forced to recant. Best, David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:56:22 -0400 From: Chuck Eisenhardt Subject: 'Bad Dreams' in the New Yorker The lyrics to 'Bad Dreams Are Good' were published in the current New Yorker magazine (9/17) as poetry. (Sorry if we already knew that) ChuckE ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:56:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Heads Up NYC Joni fans http://down2night.com/new-york/dizzys-club-coca-cola/events Dizzy's in NYC has a couple of shows next week that have promising Joni (covers) content: Rachel Z on 17SEP, Ian Shaw AND Claire Martin the 18th & 19th. Bob NP: Jason Isbell, "Chicago Promenade" - --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:33:55 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > But it wasn't Joni who published it there! So your quarrel is actually not > with Joni but with the person who defined her lyrics as poetry but the > postings have not made this clear. > Marion Mitchell published it there. Alice Quinn may have solicited her work or, less likely, Mitchell might have submitted her work, but Mitchell's lyrics did not appear in The New Yorker simply because Alice Quinn wanted them too. I mean, this argument is as absurb as saying Mitchell didn't put out Album X, because David Geffen or who ever contracted for it, put it in the record stores, and that if the album is bad, or not up to Mitchell's standards that it's Geffen's or whoever's fault. - --AJ - --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:36:33 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics On Sep 13, 2007, at 6:08 PM, David Marine wrote: > Hi, Joni list! > > This whole issue got a lot of play when The Complete Poems and Lyrics > came out. For me, it's much ado about nothing, I actually hadn't read any of the lyrics from "Shine" yet so tonight, I googled "Bad Dreams are Good" and you know, I actually don't think its half bad. I kind of like it. I especially like how she brings in Mighty Mouse and Superman. I wonder if anyone has ever mentioned Mighty Mouse in a rocknroll song before. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:42:02 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > I still don't get all the fuss. If you do not want to regard these song > lyrics as poems, it's up to you. You're missing the point here. Poems are not something one randomly defines by one's own opinion or point of view, or some parlour game where people amuse themselves by having critical-aesthetic discussions for one's own pleasure. (I've never had one of those by the way, and have no idea what it is.) A poem is a recognizable thing, just as is a beautiful piece of pottery by a skilled potter, a painting by a skilled painter, an etude by a skilled composer. What happens, though, in our culture, is that, because everyone uses language, many people think what they joy down in their notebooks is poetry. It's not. I'm happy if it gives them and their loved ones pleasure; I'm all for personal expression; but no one writes a good poem without a long apprenticeship and an unfathomable committment to pursue something that offers few worldly rewards. A friend of my parents wrote "poems," sent them to me. They were terrible. He happened to be a neurosurgeon who, as he said, "wrote poems in his spare time." I suggested he keep his day job, but that I was considering doing some brain surgery in my spare time. Quite frankly, I'm bewildered by the vehemence of this discussion. She's a world-class songwriter and a world-class lyricist. No poet could do what she does. So why is it so outrageous that a couple of folks on this list object to her lyrics being called poetry in the most high-profile venue for poetry in the US? - --AJ Your critical-aesthetic discussions are > intellectual excercises for your pleasure, and anybody else*s who cares to > take part of them. I just thought you were coming on a little too strong at > times when other people on this list didn't learn quick enough. > I, too, do not love everything Joni has written but I don't feel I have to > convince everybody else to join me in my critical stance and I don't think > that Joni's lyrics should stand up to my professional criteria of in my case > history. > Marion > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr > rflynn@frontiernet.net > Skickat: den 13 september 2007 20:07 > Till: Marion Leffler > Kopia: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' > Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > I never said I had a quarrel with Joni. I don't know even know her. I > just said I agreed with AJ that if we are to consider it a poem, it is > a very bad one. In the same way that you know a lot about history, I > know a lot about poetry. This was never about Joni in an _ad feminam_ > way (to borrow Adrienne Rich's phrase from "Snapshots of a > Daughter-in-Law"). > > I must add what another poet friend of mine here (this guy really > likes Joni, too) said when I sent him the link: to the New Yorker. He > said "Ouch! They aren't even all that good as song lyrics." > > None of those judgments are quarrelsome or anti-Joni, they're critical > and aesthetic judgments. > > I've loved Joni's songs since I was eleven years old (1966). It > doesn't mean she doesn't sometimes turn out some stuff that isn't up > to par. Even Homer nods. > > > Quoting Marion Leffler : > > > But it wasn't Joni who published it there! So your quarrel is actually not > > with Joni but with the person who defined her lyrics as poetry but the > > postings have not made this clear. > > Marion > > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > > Fren: rflynn@frontiernet.net [mailto:rflynn@frontiernet.net] > > Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:20 > > Till: Marion Leffler > > Kopia: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' > > Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > > > But Joni's view of history wasn't published in leading history > > journal. Her "poem" was published in the most prestigious venue for > > poetry in the US. That's the point and there is a difference. > > > > Quoting Marion Leffler : > > > >> My original point was that there is no point in criticising Jonis lyrics > >> for being bad poetry or bad history. Of course she expresses her opinions > > in > >> her song lyrics. > >> > >> Marion > >> > >> > >> > >> _____ > >> > >> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] > >> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 18:54 > >> Till: Marion Leffler; 'Marion Leffler'; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard > >> Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' > >> Dmne: Re: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > >> > >> > >> > >> [Top-posting intentionally.] > >> > >> > >> > >> Well, I get all that. (I'm not a historian, but I read a lot of > >> > >> history.) I guess I think she's expressing her opinion, a lot > >> > >> of which I think has validity, and no songwriter can > >> > >> possibly encompass all the complexities of the history of > >> > >> war in a song. > >> > >> > >> > >> And--and nothing against guys here, I heart guys--if you > >> > >> look at history, it is men who have lead the armies, colonized > >> > >> and exploited entire continents, and done virtually all of > >> > >> the raping and the pillaging. Women have never had, and > >> > >> still don't have, the _power_ to do this. > >> > >> > >> > >> I agree it's a simplification, but almost every wide-sweeping > >> > >> statement in a song about culture is bound to be somewhat > >> > >> simplified, which is why most songs tend to be more lyrical > >> > >> in tone, rather than epic. > >> > >> > >> > >> I need to quit talking about this song until I hear it! > >> > >> > >> > >> --AJ > >> > >> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" > >> : -------------- > >> > >> > >>> I didn't quite finish. As to the history of war, Joni expresses an > >>> over-simplified view. First of all, the reason for wars have varied > >> through > >>> history. Secondly, explaining and understanding war by referring to > (all) > >>> men's inherent traits of violence and will to kill each other (and women > >> and > >>> children, too) doesn't really make sense. There is a lot more to wars > > than > >> > >>> that. An important factor is the social structures of opposing > societies, > >>> another is cultural differences. A third is the struggle over power in > >>> various areas. These have all varied over time. > >>> Marion > >>> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > >>> Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr > Marion > >>> Leffler > >> & gt; Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:59 > >>> Till: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni > >>> LIST' > >>> Dmne: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > >>> > >>> Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, > and > >>> she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history > > per > >> > >>> se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a > >>> complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories > making > >> up > >>> our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history > >> of > >>> mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention > >> just > >>> a few. > >>> > >>> Marion > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _____ > >>> > >>> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] > >>> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 > >>> Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni > >> LIST' > >>> Dmne: Re: S V: Jonis' bad poetry > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" > >>> : -------------- > >>> > >>> > >>> > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a > >> professional > >>> > >>> > historian, the lines > >>> > "Strong and wrong you win-- > >>> > Only because > >>> > That's the way its always been. > >>> > Men love war! > >>> > That's what history' s for. > >>> > History... > >>> > A mass--murder mystery... > >>> > His story" > >>> > bug me. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated > >>> > >>> perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, > >>> > >>> but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to l ook at the history > >>> > >>> of the last couple of millennia. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:44:55 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: spam: SV: Night of the iguana I guess we'll all have to rent the movie to know for sure if that is all this song is about! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:04:10 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics - -------------- Original message from David Marine : -------------- > Hi, Joni list! > [Just lost my response. I hate web-based email.] > > I'm not sure that the New Yorker is the country's most "prestigious > venue" for poetry. What about the New York Review of Books? At any > rate, I don't think anyone should turn to Conde Nast to tell them > what is or is not poetry. The New Yorker is the most prestigious venue, hands down. NY Review of Books doesn't come close in terms of exposure, prestige, and desire to be published there, In fact, the NYROB probably isn't in the top five of places poets would like to be published. Aside from owning The New Yorker, Conde Nast has nothing to do with this. It's Alice Quinn, a very smart woman, and a former editor at Knopf, the most prestigious place to publish a volume of poetry in the US. > > What's the point of getting too caught up in semantics? So far, the > distinctions that I've seen made here between poetry and lyrics (a > poem has its own internal music and rhythm, etc.) touch on some of > the issues that one deals with when translating poetry. There are > those who would argue that poetry cannot or should not be translated > into a different language, or re-structured into a song: that too > much is lost or perverted. I'm in the camp that likes "Slouching" and > "Love". I also like the gorgeous way that she worked with the T.S. > Eliot lines in "Moon at the Window". I've always assumed that this > was an offshoot of her work on Mingus. Did I miss the discussion of > the sanctity of Eliot's lyrics? The sanctity of Eliot's poems was lost, so heinously and violently, because of the excreable Andrew Lloyd Webber (and then, piling insult upon insult, the Barry Manilow cover of Memories) that this is a sad outrage many of us would prefer not to recall. It traumatized me so badly 25 years ago. > > Serious poetry did well in the 20th century, but it's not flourishing > right now. Few read it, and fewer still have the ability to read it > with a critical eye (or ear). Outside of academic circles, I'm not > sure anyone does. So I understand when those who love poetry fight > the good fight. They're attempting to protect what's left of > "serious" poetry, and see "lyrics as poetry", rap, poetry "slams" and > such as a threat to the delicate, divine, and inspired work of those > who are writing within more traditional parameters. I can see both > sides (now), but I don't see what's served by drawing up these > "borderlines". We're not talking borderlines; we're talking definitions. A lemon and a lime are both citrus; both tart; both ovoid; and occasionally interchangeable. But they are not the same thing. (I need lemon in iced tea and with some fish; I need lime--and not lemon--in my Boodles and tonic.) Poems are poems. Lyrics are lyrics. FWIW I admire spoken word poetry very much, and encourage students to explore it, and other uses of language including hiphop. I think Emimen is brilliant (problematic in what he says, but utterly brilliant with language), but I don't think he's a poet. If it were as easy to interchange them as some people on this list seem to think, I promise you there would be several thousand poets, myself probably among them, trying to write lyrics tonight. But we can't. We are limes. Lyricists are lemons. Or vice versa. And it's pretty funny to think of poets protecting a territory where the odds of making it are about the same as making it into professional sports, and yet the terrestrial rewards are, well, minimal. - --Aleda ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:10:40 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: Joni, Poetry, and Lyrics I may withdraw from this discussion until I've actually heard the song. Because there's some unnecessary and pointless confusion in this discussion. Does B & N ship preordered stuff to you the day it comes out (as they do with the Harry Potter books) (which BTW I don't read but just know about)? It'd be a lot more fun to talk about the song as a song, than try to explain what makes a poem a poem. - --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:52:50 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: SV: Jonis' bad poetry From: "Marion Leffler" >I didn't quite finish. As to the history of war, Joni expresses an > over-simplified view. First of all, the reason for wars have varied > through > history. Not really. War is about aquiring real estate and resources. Sure differences in culture and belief are trotted out as reasons, but they are really only excuses. War is about: you have something. I want it. I'm taking it. God said I could. That's all, plus or minus 1 percent. And it's all done by men. I think Joni's points stand up to the facts. We are all pretty much descendants of the conquerers or the conquered. The possible exeption being some Indians deep in the Amazon, if there are any left. The difference between this song and Shadows & Light is that the former doesn't mince any words, the latter is pretty much a series of vague philosophical statements. RR, who just heard Bush's 'stay the course' speech and wonders if there's ever been anyone more full of shit. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:37:36 -0700 From: Subject: Joni poet I have been enjoying the Joni as poet or not thread. It is interesting to have some of the rules articulated. While many don't see or know the rules and may just love the poetic lyrics, I do think some of Joni's song lyrics might possibly qualify as the real thing. I had a friend who had no interest in Joni - looked at her as just another "hippie from the 60s" - ha! I never played her music for him but did show him her lyrics from Dog Eat Dog one night. He was literally knocked off his feet and started ranting of her genius. I think there are a few songs on that album that don't need music to convey the story. I think Fiction and Sweet Sucker Dance qualify and others may be Chair in the Sky, The Arrangement, Electricity and more. I do agree that Shine is not her best lyrically at all (but I like Hana and Night of the Iguana) but her music is the leader on this one. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 22:26:11 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry On Sep 13, 2007, at 9:42 PM, ajfashion@att.net wrote: > -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" > : -------------- > > >> I still don't get all the fuss. If you do not want to regard these >> song >> lyrics as poems, it's up to you. > > A poem is a recognizable thing, just as is a beautiful piece > of pottery by a skilled potter, a painting by a skilled painter, > an etude by a skilled composer. What happens, though, > in our culture, is that, because everyone uses language, > many people think what they joy down in their notebooks > is poetry. It's not. I'm happy if it gives them and their loved > ones pleasure; I'm all for personal expression; but no one > writes a good poem without a long apprenticeship and an > unfathomable committment to pursue something that offers > few worldly rewards. I would not agree with this statement. Suppose the discussion was about music. We could sit here all day and argue about what is music and what isn't. Where I go to school, at Georgia State University music school, there are some people with the attitude that the only music worth listening to is classical...to them anything else is a waste of time and they don't consider it real music, which they can believe if they wish, though its a very narrow view of what is music and what isn't and extremely ignorant to be honest. As far as poetry is concerned, a song lyric can certainly be considered a poem. Song are often incredibly poetic and many can stand alone without music. Sure, there are people who have no talent though maybe think they do. And yes, there are poets who write poetry (I studied with one at Guilford, Ann Deagon.) But just because someone is not a recognized, accomplished poet/scholar does not mean they can not write a good/ beautiful poem. When I lived in Asheville, I often went to poetry readings/open mics and heard several poems I thought were rather good by poets who were rather young actually. My friend Holley's daughter Laura ( who Paz has met) wrote some poetry around when she was 14 that completely blew me away. She's currently in her senior year at Davidson School of the Arts in Augusta, one of the best schools in the country, and 14th in her class. Anyway, there is no law that determines what is a poem and what isn't. It's certainly something that is subjective. And someone could write song that totally sucks. But that doesn't mean its not a song. Victor PS. The Simpsons did a great spoof on this very topic in 2006- from Wikipedia Moena Lisa is the sixth episode of the eighteenth season of The Simpsons, which originally aired on 19 November 2006. It was written by Matt Warburton and directed by Mark Kirkland. The Simpson family returns home at night to find Moe waiting for them outside their door. Sneaking into their own house, they receive a message from Moe saying that Homer had betrayed him. Impressed by the emotional depth of the letter, Lisa decides to do her report on Moe. At Moes hotel room (where he lives) Lisa discovers Moe has been writing his random thoughts on post-it notes. She arranges them and gives them a title of her own invention, and sends it to a poetry journal where it becomes a smash hit, and he is acclaimed as a Charles Bukowski-like poet. Moe is invited to Wordloaf, a writers convention in Vermont, by Tom Wolfe (who voices himself). While driving there, Homer avoids drinking and driving by driving only between sips of beer. Moe and the Simpsons finally arrive at the convention while being pursued by the police of every state in New England. At the convention, Moe mingles among noted authors Tom Wolfe, Gore Vidal, Michael Chabon and Jonathan Franzen. After Gore Vidal is ejected from the gathering when he reveals he took the titles of his various books from things he saw, as opposed to creating the title himself as any true author does, Moe takes credit for the poems name saying it was a solo effort. This breaks Lisas heart and she abandons him. Moe seems to show no remorse and even asks Lisa to craft another poem for him, but she refuses. Moe finally write a poem himself, only to have it eaten by ducks. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:15:06 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Night of the iguana Well waddayaknow. Thanks Les. Do I wind a toaster? >I just read a summary of the story from The Night of the Iguana and indeed the main protagonist, while a man of the cloth, did molest a young person - said young person, now somewhat grown up shows up as part of tour group on the bus he's tour director for. So those dots seem to join up. Les (london)< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:54:41 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Jonis' bad poetry "Men love war! That's what history' s for. History..." I actually really like these lyrics so I find it ironic that there is a discussion about the validity of them. Certainly this is no history lesson nor is Joni going into the dynamics of war. How could you fit why wars start and all those reasons in a song when we can't even talk about that simply in conversation? It surely isn't simple and the point of the song isn't that topic. With Joni's statement, "men love war," she is saying what it seems like. We as human beings have always known war. The one thing that doesn't change is war. Sure, where it happens, why it happens, how it happens--all that changes but there has always been war and there always will be war. As long as the human species continues on, there will be war sadly. We as people are the reason behind war. That is all Joni is saying I believe. I don't necessarily think it is an issue of trying to place the fault of war on men and men only. I don't think the idea of gender is too important in these lyrics though certainly men have been the ones to start war as they are the ones in power. Seemingly, "men love war" because there is always a war somewhere on the brink. If they didn't "love war" why would war always exist? I think that is all she is saying. Of course you could get into the specifics and point out that this man and that man and your neighbor and your mailman and people on this list and the cashier at the store you went to don't love war but Joni is simply stating her opinion that obviously there are those who do love war as war always exists... - -Monika ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #282 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)