From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #281 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, September 13 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 281 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry ["rflynn@frontiernet.net" ] SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry ["Marion Leffler" ] re: Joni's bad poetry? [Mags ] Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry ["rflynn@frontiernet.net" Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry But Joni's view of history wasn't published in leading history journal. Her "poem" was published in the most prestigious venue for poetry in the US. That's the point and there is a difference. Quoting Marion Leffler : > My original point was that there is no point in criticising Jonis lyrics > for being bad poetry or bad history. Of course she expresses her opinions in > her song lyrics. > > Marion > > > > _____ > > Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] > Skickat: den 13 september 2007 18:54 > Till: Marion Leffler; 'Marion Leffler'; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard > Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' > Dmne: Re: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > > > [Top-posting intentionally.] > > > > Well, I get all that. (I'm not a historian, but I read a lot of > > history.) I guess I think she's expressing her opinion, a lot > > of which I think has validity, and no songwriter can > > possibly encompass all the complexities of the history of > > war in a song. > > > > And--and nothing against guys here, I heart guys--if you > > look at history, it is men who have lead the armies, colonized > > and exploited entire continents, and done virtually all of > > the raping and the pillaging. Women have never had, and > > still don't have, the _power_ to do this. > > > > I agree it's a simplification, but almost every wide-sweeping > > statement in a song about culture is bound to be somewhat > > simplified, which is why most songs tend to be more lyrical > > in tone, rather than epic. > > > > I need to quit talking about this song until I hear it! > > > > --AJ > > -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" > : -------------- > > >> I didn't quite finish. As to the history of war, Joni expresses an >> over-simplified view. First of all, the reason for wars have varied > through >> history. Secondly, explaining and understanding war by referring to (all) >> men's inherent traits of violence and will to kill each other (and women > and >> children, too) doesn't really make sense. There is a lot more to wars than > >> that. An important factor is the social structures of opposing societies, >> another is cultural differences. A third is the struggle over power in >> various areas. These have all varied over time. >> Marion >> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- >> Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Marion >> Leffler > & gt; Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:59 >> Till: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni >> LIST' >> Dmne: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry >> >> Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and >> she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history per > >> se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a >> complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making > up >> our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history > of >> mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention > just >> a few. >> >> Marion >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] >> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 >> Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni > LIST' >> Dmne: Re: S V: Jonis' bad poetry >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" >> : -------------- >> >> >> > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a > professional >> >> > historian, the lines >> > "Strong and wrong you win-- >> > Only because >> > That's the way its always been. >> > Men love war! >> > That's what history' s for. >> > History... >> > A mass--murder mystery... >> > His story" >> > bug me. >> >> >> >> >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. >> >> >> >> Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated >> >> perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, >> >> but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to l ook at the history >> >> of the last couple of millennia. >> >> >> >> --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:25:11 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Hi Joseph, good points! Let me just add that I think Shadows and Light is by far a better presentation of a popular view of the nature of history than those lines about war as History in Strong and Wrong. At least there is some complexity in Shadows and Light. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Joseph Palis Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:08 Till: 'Joni LIST' Dmne: RE : SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry I agree, Marion. Not an historian here (although I have taken Cultures of History grad classes) but I will also add that historiographies we have come to know and ones that came out in popular history books are usually from a perspective of one historian and should not be taken as the last word on the matter. There are so many neglected narratives/fragments of history that are missing in a significant number of history books simply because some of them are 'unthinkable' (e.g. Haitian revolution in the late 1790s; massacre of Filipinos in the hands of their 'liberators' at the turn of the 1900s). However, I think Joni is making a point when she said about "men love war". After all Oscar Wilde once said that war will always have a fascination for people (although he used the word "men") and it may have propeled much of the global changes that occurred in the last centuries and yes, even millennia. Not that I buy this argument necessarily because it reinforces that there is only one linear type of historical narrative that people should know (like what you said, what about other histories? or Other histories; or even other Other histories; or subjugated knowledges that Foucault mentioned famously in his "Society Must Be Defended" lectures a few years before he died). For me, Joni's lyrics below captured a prevailing notion most of us have about history and histories. I hope she is being sarcastic here because if that is how she sums of the whole universe of histories then I wil be inclined to believe that her perspective of history/ies is a bit outmoded. Not wanting to distract any of your discussion from Joni's lyrics. Joseph in Chapel Hill (who, of late, has been having bad dreams too but will not say that bad dreams can be good) Marion Leffler a icrit : Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history per se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making up our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history of mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention just a few. Marion _____ Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: Re: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a professional > historian, the lines > "Strong and wrong you win-- > Only because > That's the way its always been. > Men love war! > That's what history' s for. > History... > A mass--murder mystery... > His story" > bug me. >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to look at the history of the last couple of millennia. - --AJ - --------------------------------- Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:27:39 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry But it wasn't Joni who published it there! So your quarrel is actually not with Joni but with the person who defined her lyrics as poetry but the postings have not made this clear. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: rflynn@frontiernet.net [mailto:rflynn@frontiernet.net] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:20 Till: Marion Leffler Kopia: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry But Joni's view of history wasn't published in leading history journal. Her "poem" was published in the most prestigious venue for poetry in the US. That's the point and there is a difference. Quoting Marion Leffler : > My original point was that there is no point in criticising Jonis lyrics > for being bad poetry or bad history. Of course she expresses her opinions in > her song lyrics. > > Marion > > > > _____ > > Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] > Skickat: den 13 september 2007 18:54 > Till: Marion Leffler; 'Marion Leffler'; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard > Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' > Dmne: Re: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > > > [Top-posting intentionally.] > > > > Well, I get all that. (I'm not a historian, but I read a lot of > > history.) I guess I think she's expressing her opinion, a lot > > of which I think has validity, and no songwriter can > > possibly encompass all the complexities of the history of > > war in a song. > > > > And--and nothing against guys here, I heart guys--if you > > look at history, it is men who have lead the armies, colonized > > and exploited entire continents, and done virtually all of > > the raping and the pillaging. Women have never had, and > > still don't have, the _power_ to do this. > > > > I agree it's a simplification, but almost every wide-sweeping > > statement in a song about culture is bound to be somewhat > > simplified, which is why most songs tend to be more lyrical > > in tone, rather than epic. > > > > I need to quit talking about this song until I hear it! > > > > --AJ > > -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" > : -------------- > > >> I didn't quite finish. As to the history of war, Joni expresses an >> over-simplified view. First of all, the reason for wars have varied > through >> history. Secondly, explaining and understanding war by referring to (all) >> men's inherent traits of violence and will to kill each other (and women > and >> children, too) doesn't really make sense. There is a lot more to wars than > >> that. An important factor is the social structures of opposing societies, >> another is cultural differences. A third is the struggle over power in >> various areas. These have all varied over time. >> Marion >> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- >> Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Marion >> Leffler > & gt; Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:59 >> Till: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni >> LIST' >> Dmne: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry >> >> Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and >> she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history per > >> se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a >> complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making > up >> our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history > of >> mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention > just >> a few. >> >> Marion >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] >> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 >> Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni > LIST' >> Dmne: Re: S V: Jonis' bad poetry >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" >> : -------------- >> >> >> > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a > professional >> >> > historian, the lines >> > "Strong and wrong you win-- >> > Only because >> > That's the way its always been. >> > Men love war! >> > That's what history' s for. >> > History... >> > A mass--murder mystery... >> > His story" >> > bug me. >> >> >> >> >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. >> >> >> >> Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated >> >> perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, >> >> but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to l ook at the history >> >> of the last couple of millennia. >> >> >> >> --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:06:31 -0400 From: "rflynn@frontiernet.net" Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry I never said I had a quarrel with Joni. I don't know even know her. I just said I agreed with AJ that if we are to consider it a poem, it is a very bad one. In the same way that you know a lot about history, I know a lot about poetry. This was never about Joni in an _ad feminam_ way (to borrow Adrienne Rich's phrase from "Snapshots of a Daughter-in-Law"). I must add what another poet friend of mine here (this guy really likes Joni, too) said when I sent him the link: to the New Yorker. He said "Ouch! They aren't even all that good as song lyrics." None of those judgments are quarrelsome or anti-Joni, they're critical and aesthetic judgments. I've loved Joni's songs since I was eleven years old (1966). It doesn't mean she doesn't sometimes turn out some stuff that isn't up to par. Even Homer nods. Quoting Marion Leffler : > But it wasn't Joni who published it there! So your quarrel is actually not > with Joni but with the person who defined her lyrics as poetry but the > postings have not made this clear. > Marion > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fren: rflynn@frontiernet.net [mailto:rflynn@frontiernet.net] > Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:20 > Till: Marion Leffler > Kopia: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' > Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > But Joni's view of history wasn't published in leading history > journal. Her "poem" was published in the most prestigious venue for > poetry in the US. That's the point and there is a difference. > > Quoting Marion Leffler : > >> My original point was that there is no point in criticising Jonis lyrics >> for being bad poetry or bad history. Of course she expresses her opinions > in >> her song lyrics. >> >> Marion >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] >> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 18:54 >> Till: Marion Leffler; 'Marion Leffler'; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard >> Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' >> Dmne: Re: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry >> >> >> >> [Top-posting intentionally.] >> >> >> >> Well, I get all that. (I'm not a historian, but I read a lot of >> >> history.) I guess I think she's expressing her opinion, a lot >> >> of which I think has validity, and no songwriter can >> >> possibly encompass all the complexities of the history of >> >> war in a song. >> >> >> >> And--and nothing against guys here, I heart guys--if you >> >> look at history, it is men who have lead the armies, colonized >> >> and exploited entire continents, and done virtually all of >> >> the raping and the pillaging. Women have never had, and >> >> still don't have, the _power_ to do this. >> >> >> >> I agree it's a simplification, but almost every wide-sweeping >> >> statement in a song about culture is bound to be somewhat >> >> simplified, which is why most songs tend to be more lyrical >> >> in tone, rather than epic. >> >> >> >> I need to quit talking about this song until I hear it! >> >> >> >> --AJ >> >> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" >> : -------------- >> >> >>> I didn't quite finish. As to the history of war, Joni expresses an >>> over-simplified view. First of all, the reason for wars have varied >> through >>> history. Secondly, explaining and understanding war by referring to (all) >>> men's inherent traits of violence and will to kill each other (and women >> and >>> children, too) doesn't really make sense. There is a lot more to wars > than >> >>> that. An important factor is the social structures of opposing societies, >>> another is cultural differences. A third is the struggle over power in >>> various areas. These have all varied over time. >>> Marion >>> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- >>> Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Marion >>> Leffler >> & gt; Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:59 >>> Till: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni >>> LIST' >>> Dmne: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry >>> >>> Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and >>> she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history > per >> >>> se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a >>> complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making >> up >>> our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history >> of >>> mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention >> just >>> a few. >>> >>> Marion >>> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] >>> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 >>> Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni >> LIST' >>> Dmne: Re: S V: Jonis' bad poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" >>> : -------------- >>> >>> >>> > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a >> professional >>> >>> > historian, the lines >>> > "Strong and wrong you win-- >>> > Only because >>> > That's the way its always been. >>> > Men love war! >>> > That's what history' s for. >>> > History... >>> > A mass--murder mystery... >>> > His story" >>> > bug me. >>> >>> >>> >>> >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. >>> >>> >>> >>> Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated >>> >>> perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, >>> >>> but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to l ook at the history >>> >>> of the last couple of millennia. >>> >>> >>> >>> --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:38:11 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry I still don't get all the fuss. If you do not want to regard these song lyrics as poems, it's up to you. Your critical-aesthetic discussions are intellectual excercises for your pleasure, and anybody else*s who cares to take part of them. I just thought you were coming on a little too strong at times when other people on this list didn't learn quick enough. I, too, do not love everything Joni has written but I don't feel I have to convince everybody else to join me in my critical stance and I don't think that Joni's lyrics should stand up to my professional criteria of in my case history. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr rflynn@frontiernet.net Skickat: den 13 september 2007 20:07 Till: Marion Leffler Kopia: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry I never said I had a quarrel with Joni. I don't know even know her. I just said I agreed with AJ that if we are to consider it a poem, it is a very bad one. In the same way that you know a lot about history, I know a lot about poetry. This was never about Joni in an _ad feminam_ way (to borrow Adrienne Rich's phrase from "Snapshots of a Daughter-in-Law"). I must add what another poet friend of mine here (this guy really likes Joni, too) said when I sent him the link: to the New Yorker. He said "Ouch! They aren't even all that good as song lyrics." None of those judgments are quarrelsome or anti-Joni, they're critical and aesthetic judgments. I've loved Joni's songs since I was eleven years old (1966). It doesn't mean she doesn't sometimes turn out some stuff that isn't up to par. Even Homer nods. Quoting Marion Leffler : > But it wasn't Joni who published it there! So your quarrel is actually not > with Joni but with the person who defined her lyrics as poetry but the > postings have not made this clear. > Marion > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fren: rflynn@frontiernet.net [mailto:rflynn@frontiernet.net] > Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:20 > Till: Marion Leffler > Kopia: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' > Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > But Joni's view of history wasn't published in leading history > journal. Her "poem" was published in the most prestigious venue for > poetry in the US. That's the point and there is a difference. > > Quoting Marion Leffler : > >> My original point was that there is no point in criticising Jonis lyrics >> for being bad poetry or bad history. Of course she expresses her opinions > in >> her song lyrics. >> >> Marion >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] >> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 18:54 >> Till: Marion Leffler; 'Marion Leffler'; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard >> Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' >> Dmne: Re: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry >> >> >> >> [Top-posting intentionally.] >> >> >> >> Well, I get all that. (I'm not a historian, but I read a lot of >> >> history.) I guess I think she's expressing her opinion, a lot >> >> of which I think has validity, and no songwriter can >> >> possibly encompass all the complexities of the history of >> >> war in a song. >> >> >> >> And--and nothing against guys here, I heart guys--if you >> >> look at history, it is men who have lead the armies, colonized >> >> and exploited entire continents, and done virtually all of >> >> the raping and the pillaging. Women have never had, and >> >> still don't have, the _power_ to do this. >> >> >> >> I agree it's a simplification, but almost every wide-sweeping >> >> statement in a song about culture is bound to be somewhat >> >> simplified, which is why most songs tend to be more lyrical >> >> in tone, rather than epic. >> >> >> >> I need to quit talking about this song until I hear it! >> >> >> >> --AJ >> >> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" >> : -------------- >> >> >>> I didn't quite finish. As to the history of war, Joni expresses an >>> over-simplified view. First of all, the reason for wars have varied >> through >>> history. Secondly, explaining and understanding war by referring to (all) >>> men's inherent traits of violence and will to kill each other (and women >> and >>> children, too) doesn't really make sense. There is a lot more to wars > than >> >>> that. An important factor is the social structures of opposing societies, >>> another is cultural differences. A third is the struggle over power in >>> various areas. These have all varied over time. >>> Marion >>> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- >>> Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Marion >>> Leffler >> & gt; Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:59 >>> Till: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni >>> LIST' >>> Dmne: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry >>> >>> Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and >>> she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history > per >> >>> se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a >>> complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making >> up >>> our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history >> of >>> mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention >> just >>> a few. >>> >>> Marion >>> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] >>> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 >>> Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni >> LIST' >>> Dmne: Re: S V: Jonis' bad poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" >>> : -------------- >>> >>> >>> > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a >> professional >>> >>> > historian, the lines >>> > "Strong and wrong you win-- >>> > Only because >>> > That's the way its always been. >>> > Men love war! >>> > That's what history' s for. >>> > History... >>> > A mass--murder mystery... >>> > His story" >>> > bug me. >>> >>> >>> >>> >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. >>> >>> >>> >>> Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated >>> >>> perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, >>> >>> but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to l ook at the history >>> >>> of the last couple of millennia. >>> >>> >>> >>> --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:45:50 -0400 From: "rflynn@frontiernet.net" Subject: Re: Song Lyrics: intended or error? According to the Oxford Dictionary of Modern Quotations, the origin of "Time wounds all heals" is The Marx Brothers Go West (1940 film) Quale (Groucho) Say, all the beautiful stems in here are not on the wine glasses. Lulubelle, it's you! I didn't recognize you standing up. ... Why don't you let me go? Let's keep this a perfect memory, and someday the bitter ache shall pass, my sweet. Time wounds all heals. You know, there's a drunk sitting at the first table who looks exactly like you---and one who looks exactly like me. Dull, isn't it? He's so full of alcohol, if you put a lighted wick in his mouth, he'd burn for three days. ... Let's go somewhere where we can be alone. Ah, there doesn't seem to be anyone on this couch. Quoting Mark Tatum : > Also, even earlier, from "Fractured Fairy Tales" (narrated by Edward > Everett Horton) on the old Rocky and Bullwinkle show. > >>>> Catherine McKay 09/12/07 4:20 PM >>> > > --- Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > > >> >> Reminds me of the Nick Lowe song title "Time Wounds >> All Heels" that plays >> on the cliche "Time HEALS all wounds". >> > > Also a quote of John Lennon if you've seen "The U.S. > vs John Lennon". > > > > Catherine > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk > email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at > http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:43:56 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry On second thought, I can't resist commenting on the Men love war clichi. Which men and who says? Oscar Wilde with his romantic notions of masculinity and noble wars, a typical product of his culture? Generals? Has anybody asked the soldiers in Afghanistan, in Iraqu or elsewhere? My sons, for example, refused their mandatory army education, and they are not the only ones. Lots of young American men refused to go to war in Vietnam and had to flee their own country because of their refusal. There is countless evidence of men who do not love war. (This is not an argument with you, Joseph, just a comment in general). Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: Marion Leffler [mailto:marionleffler@telia.com] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:25 Till: 'Joseph Palis'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Hi Joseph, good points! Let me just add that I think Shadows and Light is by far a better presentation of a popular view of the nature of history than those lines about war as History in Strong and Wrong. At least there is some complexity in Shadows and Light. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Joseph Palis Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:08 Till: 'Joni LIST' Dmne: RE : SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry I agree, Marion. Not an historian here (although I have taken Cultures of History grad classes) but I will also add that historiographies we have come to know and ones that came out in popular history books are usually from a perspective of one historian and should not be taken as the last word on the matter. There are so many neglected narratives/fragments of history that are missing in a significant number of history books simply because some of them are 'unthinkable' (e.g. Haitian revolution in the late 1790s; massacre of Filipinos in the hands of their 'liberators' at the turn of the 1900s). However, I think Joni is making a point when she said about "men love war". After all Oscar Wilde once said that war will always have a fascination for people (although he used the word "men") and it may have propeled much of the global changes that occurred in the last centuries and yes, even millennia. Not that I buy this argument necessarily because it reinforces that there is only one linear type of historical narrative that people should know (like what you said, what about other histories? or Other histories; or even other Other histories; or subjugated knowledges that Foucault mentioned famously in his "Society Must Be Defended" lectures a few years before he died). For me, Joni's lyrics below captured a prevailing notion most of us have about history and histories. I hope she is being sarcastic here because if that is how she sums of the whole universe of histories then I wil be inclined to believe that her perspective of history/ies is a bit outmoded. Not wanting to distract any of your discussion from Joni's lyrics. Joseph in Chapel Hill (who, of late, has been having bad dreams too but will not say that bad dreams can be good) Marion Leffler a icrit : Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history per se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making up our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history of mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention just a few. Marion _____ Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: Re: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a professional > historian, the lines > "Strong and wrong you win-- > Only because > That's the way its always been. > Men love war! > That's what history' s for. > History... > A mass--murder mystery... > His story" > bug me. >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to look at the history of the last couple of millennia. - --AJ - --------------------------------- Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:56:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Mags Subject: re: Joni's bad poetry? Subject: Jonis' bad poetry Having recently joined the lurkers, I'm being brought back to activity by Richard and AJ being so adamant about this. It's probably an old discussion, but I'd like to know how you distinguish poetry from lyrics and why you consider this one to be bad poetry. It's not that I want to disagree or feel you are being blasphemous, I'm just really curious! Reasons, reasons, please! Best Bene hey Bene, I was wondering the same thing. I look forward to the discussion, too. Mags in chilly Winterpeg - --------------------------------- Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:54:36 -0400 From: "rflynn@frontiernet.net" Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Talk about coming on strong! You've repeatedly tried to dismiss everything we say. And yet you can allow yourself to go on at length about just about any subject and you repeatedly insist that your opinion is tho only one that matters. I shall try to ignore your posts in the future. Quoting Marion Leffler : > I still don't get all the fuss. If you do not want to regard these song > lyrics as poems, it's up to you. Your critical-aesthetic discussions are > intellectual excercises for your pleasure, and anybody else*s who cares to > take part of them. I just thought you were coming on a little too strong at > times when other people on this list didn't learn quick enough. > I, too, do not love everything Joni has written but I don't feel I have to > convince everybody else to join me in my critical stance and I don't think > that Joni's lyrics should stand up to my professional criteria of in my case > history. > Marion > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr > rflynn@frontiernet.net > Skickat: den 13 september 2007 20:07 > Till: Marion Leffler > Kopia: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' > Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > I never said I had a quarrel with Joni. I don't know even know her. I > just said I agreed with AJ that if we are to consider it a poem, it is > a very bad one. In the same way that you know a lot about history, I > know a lot about poetry. This was never about Joni in an _ad feminam_ > way (to borrow Adrienne Rich's phrase from "Snapshots of a > Daughter-in-Law"). > > I must add what another poet friend of mine here (this guy really > likes Joni, too) said when I sent him the link: to the New Yorker. He > said "Ouch! They aren't even all that good as song lyrics." > > None of those judgments are quarrelsome or anti-Joni, they're critical > and aesthetic judgments. > > I've loved Joni's songs since I was eleven years old (1966). It > doesn't mean she doesn't sometimes turn out some stuff that isn't up > to par. Even Homer nods. > > > Quoting Marion Leffler : > >> But it wasn't Joni who published it there! So your quarrel is actually not >> with Joni but with the person who defined her lyrics as poetry but the >> postings have not made this clear. >> Marion >> >> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- >> Fren: rflynn@frontiernet.net [mailto:rflynn@frontiernet.net] >> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:20 >> Till: Marion Leffler >> Kopia: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' >> Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry >> >> But Joni's view of history wasn't published in leading history >> journal. Her "poem" was published in the most prestigious venue for >> poetry in the US. That's the point and there is a difference. >> >> Quoting Marion Leffler : >> >>> My original point was that there is no point in criticising Jonis lyrics >>> for being bad poetry or bad history. Of course she expresses her opinions >> in >>> her song lyrics. >>> >>> Marion >>> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] >>> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 18:54 >>> Till: Marion Leffler; 'Marion Leffler'; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard >>> Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' >>> Dmne: Re: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> [Top-posting intentionally.] >>> >>> >>> >>> Well, I get all that. (I'm not a historian, but I read a lot of >>> >>> history.) I guess I think she's expressing her opinion, a lot >>> >>> of which I think has validity, and no songwriter can >>> >>> possibly encompass all the complexities of the history of >>> >>> war in a song. >>> >>> >>> >>> And--and nothing against guys here, I heart guys--if you >>> >>> look at history, it is men who have lead the armies, colonized >>> >>> and exploited entire continents, and done virtually all of >>> >>> the raping and the pillaging. Women have never had, and >>> >>> still don't have, the _power_ to do this. >>> >>> >>> >>> I agree it's a simplification, but almost every wide-sweeping >>> >>> statement in a song about culture is bound to be somewhat >>> >>> simplified, which is why most songs tend to be more lyrical >>> >>> in tone, rather than epic. >>> >>> >>> >>> I need to quit talking about this song until I hear it! >>> >>> >>> >>> --AJ >>> >>> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" >>> : -------------- >>> >>> >>>> I didn't quite finish. As to the history of war, Joni expresses an >>>> over-simplified view. First of all, the reason for wars have varied >>> through >>>> history. Secondly, explaining and understanding war by referring to > (all) >>>> men's inherent traits of violence and will to kill each other (and women >>> and >>>> children, too) doesn't really make sense. There is a lot more to wars >> than >>> >>>> that. An important factor is the social structures of opposing > societies, >>>> another is cultural differences. A third is the struggle over power in >>>> various areas. These have all varied over time. >>>> Marion >>>> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- >>>> Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr > Marion >>>> Leffler >>> & gt; Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:59 >>>> Till: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni >>>> LIST' >>>> Dmne: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry >>>> >>>> Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, > and >>>> she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history >> per >>> >>>> se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a >>>> complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories > making >>> up >>>> our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history >>> of >>>> mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention >>> just >>>> a few. >>>> >>>> Marion >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _____ >>>> >>>> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] >>>> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 >>>> Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni >>> LIST' >>>> Dmne: Re: S V: Jonis' bad poetry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" >>>> : -------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a >>> professional >>>> >>>> > historian, the lines >>>> > "Strong and wrong you win-- >>>> > Only because >>>> > That's the way its always been. >>>> > Men love war! >>>> > That's what history' s for. >>>> > History... >>>> > A mass--murder mystery... >>>> > His story" >>>> > bug me. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated >>>> >>>> perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, >>>> >>>> but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to l ook at the history >>>> >>>> of the last couple of millennia. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:00:24 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Likewise! Maybe men do love war, after all? - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: rflynn@frontiernet.net [mailto:rflynn@frontiernet.net] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 20:55 Till: Marion Leffler Kopia: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Talk about coming on strong! You've repeatedly tried to dismiss everything we say. And yet you can allow yourself to go on at length about just about any subject and you repeatedly insist that your opinion is tho only one that matters. I shall try to ignore your posts in the future. Quoting Marion Leffler : > I still don't get all the fuss. If you do not want to regard these song > lyrics as poems, it's up to you. Your critical-aesthetic discussions are > intellectual excercises for your pleasure, and anybody else*s who cares to > take part of them. I just thought you were coming on a little too strong at > times when other people on this list didn't learn quick enough. > I, too, do not love everything Joni has written but I don't feel I have to > convince everybody else to join me in my critical stance and I don't think > that Joni's lyrics should stand up to my professional criteria of in my case > history. > Marion > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr > rflynn@frontiernet.net > Skickat: den 13 september 2007 20:07 > Till: Marion Leffler > Kopia: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' > Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > I never said I had a quarrel with Joni. I don't know even know her. I > just said I agreed with AJ that if we are to consider it a poem, it is > a very bad one. In the same way that you know a lot about history, I > know a lot about poetry. This was never about Joni in an _ad feminam_ > way (to borrow Adrienne Rich's phrase from "Snapshots of a > Daughter-in-Law"). > > I must add what another poet friend of mine here (this guy really > likes Joni, too) said when I sent him the link: to the New Yorker. He > said "Ouch! They aren't even all that good as song lyrics." > > None of those judgments are quarrelsome or anti-Joni, they're critical > and aesthetic judgments. > > I've loved Joni's songs since I was eleven years old (1966). It > doesn't mean she doesn't sometimes turn out some stuff that isn't up > to par. Even Homer nods. > > > Quoting Marion Leffler : > >> But it wasn't Joni who published it there! So your quarrel is actually not >> with Joni but with the person who defined her lyrics as poetry but the >> postings have not made this clear. >> Marion >> >> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- >> Fren: rflynn@frontiernet.net [mailto:rflynn@frontiernet.net] >> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 19:20 >> Till: Marion Leffler >> Kopia: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Joni LIST' >> Dmne: Re: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry >> >> But Joni's view of history wasn't published in leading history >> journal. Her "poem" was published in the most prestigious venue for >> poetry in the US. That's the point and there is a difference. >> >> Quoting Marion Leffler : >> >>> My original point was that there is no point in criticising Jonis lyrics >>> for being bad poetry or bad history. Of course she expresses her opinions >> in >>> her song lyrics. >>> >>> Marion >>> >>> >>> >>> _____ >>> >>> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] >>> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 18:54 >>> Till: Marion Leffler; 'Marion Leffler'; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard >>> Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' >>> Dmne: Re: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> [Top-posting intentionally.] >>> >>> >>> >>> Well, I get all that. (I'm not a historian, but I read a lot of >>> >>> history.) I guess I think she's expressing her opinion, a lot >>> >>> of which I think has validity, and no songwriter can >>> >>> possibly encompass all the complexities of the history of >>> >>> war in a song. >>> >>> >>> >>> And--and nothing against guys here, I heart guys--if you >>> >>> look at history, it is men who have lead the armies, colonized >>> >>> and exploited entire continents, and done virtually all of >>> >>> the raping and the pillaging. Women have never had, and >>> >>> still don't have, the _power_ to do this. >>> >>> >>> >>> I agree it's a simplification, but almost every wide-sweeping >>> >>> statement in a song about culture is bound to be somewhat >>> >>> simplified, which is why most songs tend to be more lyrical >>> >>> in tone, rather than epic. >>> >>> >>> >>> I need to quit talking about this song until I hear it! >>> >>> >>> >>> --AJ >>> >>> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" >>> : -------------- >>> >>> >>>> I didn't quite finish. As to the history of war, Joni expresses an >>>> over-simplified view. First of all, the reason for wars have varied >>> through >>>> history. Secondly, explaining and understanding war by referring to > (all) >>>> men's inherent traits of violence and will to kill each other (and women >>> and >>>> children, too) doesn't really make sense. There is a lot more to wars >> than >>> >>>> that. An important factor is the social structures of opposing > societies, >>>> another is cultural differences. A third is the struggle over power in >>>> various areas. These have all varied over time. >>>> Marion >>>> -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- >>>> Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr > Marion >>>> Leffler >>> & gt; Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:59 >>>> Till: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni >>>> LIST' >>>> Dmne: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry >>>> >>>> Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, > and >>>> she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history >> per >>> >>>> se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a >>>> complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories > making >>> up >>>> our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history >>> of >>>> mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention >>> just >>>> a few. >>>> >>>> Marion >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _____ >>>> >>>> Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] >>>> Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 >>>> Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni >>> LIST' >>>> Dmne: Re: S V: Jonis' bad poetry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" >>>> : -------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a >>> professional >>>> >>>> > historian, the lines >>>> > "Strong and wrong you win-- >>>> > Only because >>>> > That's the way its always been. >>>> > Men love war! >>>> > That's what history' s for. >>>> > History... >>>> > A mass--murder mystery... >>>> > His story" >>>> > bug me. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated >>>> >>>> perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, >>>> >>>> but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to l ook at the history >>>> >>>> of the last couple of millennia. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:34:22 +0000 From: waytoblue@comcast.net Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry These posts are not poetic enough. Come on, a little more symmetry and flow, ebb and tide. If you don't want to regard these jmdl messages as poetic its up to you though in reality, it was not you who posted them but the mail server.....; Victor, in rainy Atlanta -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "rflynn@frontiernet.net" > Talk about coming on strong! You've repeatedly tried to dismiss > everything we say. And yet you can allow yourself to go on at length > about just about any subject and you repeatedly insist that your > opinion is tho only one that matters. > > I shall try to ignore your posts in the future. > > > Quoting Marion Leffler : > > > I still don't get all the fuss. If you do not want to regard these song > > lyrics as poems, it's up to you. Your critical-aesthetic discussions are > > intellectual excercises for your pleasure, and anybody else*s who cares to ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #281 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)