From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #280 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, September 13 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 280 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Jonis' bad poetry [missblux@googlemail.com] Joni's poem: ironic or not? [missblux@googlemail.com] Re: "Shine": It's all happening [Bryan ] Re: Jonis' bad poetry [missblux@googlemail.com] SV: Jonis' bad poetry ["Marion Leffler" ] Song Lyrics: intended or error? ["Mark Tatum" ] Re: Jonis' bad poetry [Motitan@aol.com] Re: Joni's poem: ironic or not? [Motitan@aol.com] SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry ["Marion Leffler" ] bumper stickers ["Kate Bennett" ] SV: Night of the iguana ["Marion Leffler" ] SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry ["Marion Leffler" ] RE: spam: SV: Night of the iguana ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Jonis' bad poetry [ajfashion@att.net] sjc? a little Joni in the workplace ["Patti Parlette" ] Re: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [ajfashion@att.net] Re: Jonis' bad poetry [jeannie ] SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry ["Marion Leffler" ] RE : SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [Joseph Palis ] SV: spam: SV: Night of the iguana ["Marion Leffler" : -------------- > I won't risk the ridicule that surely ought to befall Alice > Quinn, the New Yorker's poetry editor, for trying to pass off Joni Mitchell > song lyrics as poetry by calling Dylan a poet. > Just as poem aren't lyrics, lyrics, no matter how brilliant, aren't poems. The New Yorker is the highest profile magazine in the world in which to publish a poem, and one thing poets don't need is non-poets taking one of approximately hundreds spots a year available for poems in The New Yorker. I wish instead The New Yorker had done a profile of Mitchell or, better yet, an analysis of her lyrics. But if one is asked to view this as a poem, it's embarassing. for both The New Yorker and Joni Mitchell. IMO. - - --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:05:22 +0200 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Joni's poem: ironic or not? Hey... (what am I going to call you - anon anon?) She is surely not being ironic, as Bob says, in that Amanda Ghost interview she talked about the time her grandchild said this. She had been complaining about bad dreams, or saying that something was like a bad dream, and the kid said: but bad dreams are good, in the grand scheme! And she said that she was startled at how such a small kid would know this. I guess it means what Marion says: they are warnings or signs that you are still mentally sane. But I'm not sure - it feels like one of these lines that may be intriguing you for a few decades, and then one day get it: THATS what she meant! Maybe the kid has been told that it is good to cry because it means you have a soul, or something. I don't understand the lyrics all the way through, I rarely do, that's why it's great that we have some good interpreters on this list! Best Bene Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 20:44:10 -0400 From: "anon anon" Subject: Joni's poem: ironic or not? Does anyone fully understand Joni's poem. I agree with much of what she sais, but when she sais that "bad dreams are good", is she being serious or is she being ironic? I really can't tell... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 05:47:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Bryan Subject: Re: "Shine": It's all happening From: "Lama \(Jim L*Hommedieu\)" Subject: "Shine": It's all happening Our local singer-songwriter station played part of "Shine" during the "Wednesday Premiers" segment. Niki called it "the fantastic new Joni Mitchell." This is good news 'cause it means that Hear Music sent advance copies out to lots of tiny stations, including this college station on the outskirts of Dayton, OH. Has anyone seen the final package yet? Does the artwork hold any surprises (as SoaPG did)? Jim L. 13 days... Yes, that's cool. WYSO isn't so small though Jim, it's the primary public radio station in a medium size media market. I'm not surprised they have a copy of the CD. I'll have to tune in more often. Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:36:02 +0200 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Re: Jonis' bad poetry Hey thanks, that's very informative. I see the point.... I am surprised that punctuation matters though... Bene On 9/13/07, Richard Flynn wrote: > I'm short on time this morning, but lyrics are dependent on the music for > their full effect. In the case of these lyrics, they bear the telltale > signs of the bad poetry I read from beginning poets, including a lack of > punctuation, very dodgy meter (you can get away with laxer meter in a song > than you can in a poem), and excessive abstraction and clichid (this will > appear as clichid, because of smoe's oddities)images. I could do a line by > line analysis, but I have to go to a meeting and then finish preparing to > teach my modern poetry class. > > Despite what others say, I do think there is some irony in the song, and > I'll bet I'll think it is a great song once I hear the music. > > The New Yorker shuld have labeled it "song lyrics" and then I'd have no > objection. > > Off to work, > > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: missblux@googlemail.com [mailto:missblux@googlemail.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 5:57 AM > To: ajfashion@att.net; Joni LIST; rflynn@frontiernet.net > Subject: Jonis' bad poetry > > Having recently joined the lurkers, I'm being brought back to activity > by Richard and AJ being so adamant about this. It's probably an old > discussion, but I'd like to know how you distinguish poetry from > lyrics and why you consider this one to be bad poetry. It's not that I > want to disagree or feel you are being blasphemous, I'm just really > curious! > Reasons, reasons, please! > Best > Bene > > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 03:10:38 +0000 > From: > Subject: RE: Night of the Iguana > > - -------------- Original message from "Richard Flynn" > : -------------- > > > I won't risk the ridicule that surely ought to befall Alice > > Quinn, the New Yorker's poetry editor, for trying to pass off Joni > Mitchell > > song lyrics as poetry by calling Dylan a poet. > > > > Just as poem aren't lyrics, lyrics, no matter how brilliant, aren't > poems. The New Yorker is the highest profile magazine in the > world in which to publish a poem, and one thing poets don't > need is non-poets taking one of approximately hundreds spots > a year available for poems in The New Yorker. > > I wish instead The New Yorker had done a profile of > Mitchell or, better yet, an analysis of her lyrics. > > But if one is asked to view this as a poem, it's embarassing. > for both The New Yorker and Joni Mitchell. > > IMO. > > - --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:54:26 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: Jonis' bad poetry So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a professional historian, the lines "Strong and wrong you win-- Only because That's the way its always been. Men love war! That's what history' s for. History... A mass--murder mystery... His story" bug me. They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. But - - I am not listening to Joni with my intellectual tools ready to dissect every word. I listen to Joni because her lyrics, her music and her singing make me realise what my emotions are about. Whenever she succeeds with that, I am ready to forgive any shortcomings she might have. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr missblux@googlemail.com Skickat: den 13 september 2007 16:36 Till: Richard Flynn; Joni LIST Dmne: Re: Jonis' bad poetry Hey thanks, that's very informative. I see the point.... I am surprised that punctuation matters though... Bene On 9/13/07, Richard Flynn wrote: > I'm short on time this morning, but lyrics are dependent on the music for > their full effect. In the case of these lyrics, they bear the telltale > signs of the bad poetry I read from beginning poets, including a lack of > punctuation, very dodgy meter (you can get away with laxer meter in a song > than you can in a poem), and excessive abstraction and clichid (this will > appear as clichid, because of smoe's oddities)images. I could do a line by > line analysis, but I have to go to a meeting and then finish preparing to > teach my modern poetry class. > > Despite what others say, I do think there is some irony in the song, and > I'll bet I'll think it is a great song once I hear the music. > > The New Yorker shuld have labeled it "song lyrics" and then I'd have no > objection. > > Off to work, > > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: missblux@googlemail.com [mailto:missblux@googlemail.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 5:57 AM > To: ajfashion@att.net; Joni LIST; rflynn@frontiernet.net > Subject: Jonis' bad poetry > > Having recently joined the lurkers, I'm being brought back to activity > by Richard and AJ being so adamant about this. It's probably an old > discussion, but I'd like to know how you distinguish poetry from > lyrics and why you consider this one to be bad poetry. It's not that I > want to disagree or feel you are being blasphemous, I'm just really > curious! > Reasons, reasons, please! > Best > Bene > > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 03:10:38 +0000 > From: > Subject: RE: Night of the Iguana > > - -------------- Original message from "Richard Flynn" > : -------------- > > > I won't risk the ridicule that surely ought to befall Alice > > Quinn, the New Yorker's poetry editor, for trying to pass off Joni > Mitchell > > song lyrics as poetry by calling Dylan a poet. > > > > Just as poem aren't lyrics, lyrics, no matter how brilliant, aren't > poems. The New Yorker is the highest profile magazine in the > world in which to publish a poem, and one thing poets don't > need is non-poets taking one of approximately hundreds spots > a year available for poems in The New Yorker. > > I wish instead The New Yorker had done a profile of > Mitchell or, better yet, an analysis of her lyrics. > > But if one is asked to view this as a poem, it's embarassing. > for both The New Yorker and Joni Mitchell. > > IMO. > > - --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:57:27 -0500 From: "Mark Tatum" Subject: Song Lyrics: intended or error? I wrote: < In Hana, one of the lines, as reported on jonimitchell.com, is "Dig inyour heals." Should that be "heels" instead?> Then Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: Boy, I sure hope not. 'Dig in your heels' is a cliche, while 'Dig in your HEALS' sets the cliche on its ear. And it makes sense in the adjacent line..."and get a good grip on your grief" which is definitely something you would want to heal. I hope that Joni intended the . homonym. I would like to agree with you, Bob, but I can't quite get there. I tried to see it that way when first reading the lyrics, and I considered that having a knack for getting people back on track could be considered a kind of healing, but "heal" is purely a verb, not a noun like "heel", and I don't think healing is something that you would "dig in" to someone. I agree that digging in your heels can be considered a cliche, but so can rolling up your sleeves, pitching in, getting back on track, taking it on the chin, putting up a white flag, getting a grip, etc. I think Joni purposely used so many "cliches" to help set the tone of the piece. Plus, we know mistakes can be made (boy winds), which brings up the question of where the printed lyrics come from. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:01:17 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from missblux@googlemail.com: -------------- > Having recently joined the lurkers, I'm being brought back to activity > by Richard and AJ being so adamant about this. It's probably an old > discussion, but I'd like to know how you distinguish poetry from > lyrics and why you consider this one to be bad poetry. It's not that I > want to disagree or feel you are being blasphemous, I'm just really > curious! > Reasons, reasons, please! > Best > Bene Volumes could be written on this by minds far more astute than mine, but a couple of brief observations. Lyrics are enhanced by music, even the greatest lyrics whose brilliant use of language stuns me (i.e. Stephen Sondheim and Mitchell). Lyrics, even great ones, are never as powerful on the page or read aloud, as they are when put together with their music. Poems have, inherently within them, their own music (Yeats is the pre-eminent example of this in the twentieth century). Mitchell's lyrics in The New Yorker, if considered as a poem, have no real sense of line breaks; have too many abstractions (rather than concrete specific language); an unsatisfactory conclusion; use of cliched language; weak imagery; and lack of something ineffable which a good poem has, the sense that the writer has some great stake in saying what she is saying. Good poetry tends ultimately to ride on the power of language, and these lyrics don't do that. Now, please understand, that doesn't mean I won't find it, when I hear it, a great great song, with great lyrics. (If one looks at the lyrics of "Judgement of the Moon and Stars" as a poem, it has many of the same problems, and I think the lyrics to that song are as good as any anywhere. Same goes for many, many Mitchell songs). Lyrics and poems use the same tool: language, but they are different things. Lyrics need their music. (And poems, IMO, don't need music, but we've already covered the "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" debate.) Unfortunately the vast majority of people read little, if any contemporary poetry (though they may have been exposed to the great modernists and some mid-century poems in college), so it's somewhat difficult to explain. Also, I'm not the most articulate person explaining this (and please don't ask me the difference between poetry and prose!). But I hope this helps a little. - --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:22:15 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Song Lyrics: intended or error? OK, probably better to blame that damn Les Irvin for a typo. Tighten up, Les. Bob NP: Prince, "Lion of Judah" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. 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I mean, it's not good poetry, but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to look at the history of the last couple of millennia. - --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:44:13 -0500 From: "Mark Tatum" Subject: Re: Song Lyrics: intended or error? Also, even earlier, from "Fractured Fairy Tales" (narrated by Edward Everett Horton) on the old Rocky and Bullwinkle show. >>> Catherine McKay 09/12/07 4:20 PM >>> - --- Bob.Muller@Fluor.com wrote: > > Reminds me of the Nick Lowe song title "Time Wounds > All Heels" that plays > on the cliche "Time HEALS all wounds". > Also a quote of John Lennon if you've seen "The U.S. vs John Lennon". Catherine - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:42:00 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Night of the iguana Night of the Iguana Hi all, Not remembering NOTI clearly, what struck me in these verses is a reference to child molestation by the catholic church? >He could lose his bus For the same sweet sin That took his church from him< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:51:36 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Jonis' bad poetry Well poetry is one thing and songwriting is another. Words and music (IMO) go hand in hand. Sure, sometimes you can take the words away from the music and they are still a fine, fine set of lyrics. But surely they are not a poem. Poetry has a certain structure (depending on the writer and what they use) and songs have a completely different structure. I'd like to say there is more room as far as structure goes in songwriting which makes it all the more interesting. It seems if you have no structure in a poem, it's hardly a poem at all. But then again all poetry is subjective (as are songs really). There are many poets (actual poets) who are revered who I couldn't care less for. Robert Frost for one.... - -Monika ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:59:17 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's poem: ironic or not? I really like the phrase, "Bad dreams are good in the great plan." The way I see it, even all the shit that happens in life is there for a reason. I'm not talking necessarily destiny or fate though it may sound like it. I think it is an uplifting statement nonetheless. Anything that happens to you or in general does so for a reason. There's something greater at work there and even if it is the most horrible thing, just know it was meant to happen, you will get through it, and more is to come (good and bad really). It's almost a Buddhist sentiment in a way. Buddhists say we are made to suffer. Life is suffering and suffering is life yet they still have a hope for more (Nirvana in their case) and realize this is to be. I really do enjoy Eastern religion. - -Monika ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:58:50 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history per se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making up our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history of mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention just a few. Marion _____ Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: Re: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a professional > historian, the lines > "Strong and wrong you win-- > Only because > That's the way its always been. > Men love war! > That's what history' s for. > History... > A mass--murder mystery... > His story" > bug me. >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to look at the history of the last couple of millennia. - --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:02:14 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: bumper stickers >I also think it might well make the difference in whether or not I could talk a policeman out of giving me a ticket (something I'm very good at).< Ha, my son who as a teenager was treated not so kindly by law enforcement, decided to put a 'I support my local police' or some such bumper sticker on his car simply to keep them from harassing him ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:26:28 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: Night of the iguana Why does "the same sweet sin" have to imply child molestation? I haven't seen the film or read the play, so I wouldn't know but reading those lines I got the impression the line referred simply to some carnal sin, that is to some sexual activity not tolerated by the church. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Kate Bennett Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:42 Till: joni@smoe.org Dmne: Night of the iguana Night of the Iguana Hi all, Not remembering NOTI clearly, what struck me in these verses is a reference to child molestation by the catholic church? >He could lose his bus For the same sweet sin That took his church from him< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:34:56 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry I didn't quite finish. As to the history of war, Joni expresses an over-simplified view. First of all, the reason for wars have varied through history. Secondly, explaining and understanding war by referring to (all) men's inherent traits of violence and will to kill each other (and women and children, too) doesn't really make sense. There is a lot more to wars than that. An important factor is the social structures of opposing societies, another is cultural differences. A third is the struggle over power in various areas. These have all varied over time. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Marion Leffler Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:59 Till: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history per se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making up our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history of mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention just a few. Marion _____ Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: Re: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a professional > historian, the lines > "Strong and wrong you win-- > Only because > That's the way its always been. > Men love war! > That's what history' s for. > History... > A mass--murder mystery... > His story" > bug me. >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to look at the history of the last couple of millennia. - --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:38:07 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: spam: SV: Night of the iguana Hi Marion. It doesn't 'have to'- this is just my first impression which is certainly colored by what has been currently going on for a few years where I live in SoCal (many people receiving settlements from the church for being molested as children by priests & the church covering it up) It is especially this part- 'took his church from him' that indicates this situation IMO- many that once were members, have left the church (or had their church taken away from them in essence) also, in other places in the lyrics there are at least two references to youth - -----Original Message----- From: Marion Leffler [mailto:marionleffler@telia.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:26 AM To: 'Kate Bennett'; joni@smoe.org Subject: spam: SV: Night of the iguana Why does "the same sweet sin" have to imply child molestation? I haven't seen the film or read the play, so I wouldn't know but reading those lines I got the impression the line referred simply to some carnal sin, that is to some sexual activity not tolerated by the church. Marion ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:46:31 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from Motitan@aol.com: -------------- Well poetry is one thing and songwriting is another. Words and music (IMO) go hand in hand. Sure, sometimes you can take the words away from the music and they are still a fine, fine set of lyrics. But surely they are not a poem. Poetry has a certain structure (depending on the writer and what they use) and songs have a completely different structure. I'd like to say there is more room as far as structure goes in songwriting which makes it all the more interesting. It seems if you have no structure in a poem, it's hardly a poem at all. But then again all poetry is subjective (as are songs really). There are many poets (actual poets) who are revered who I couldn't care less for. Robert Frost for one.... - -Monika Robert Frost's reputation has suffered greatly because his poems work on several levels, one of which is a really accessible level. As I have read him more deeply, from childhood until now, my middle age, I find him more and more profound, and could argye pretty convincingly that his vision of humankind and the twentieth century is as profound and equally, if not more dark, than his more extreme modernist contemporaries like Eliot and Pound. - --AJ Received: from alnwmxc02.att.net ([12.102.252.82]) by worldnet.att.net (mtiwmxc16) with ESMTP id <200709131552030160079t35e>; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:52:03 +0000 Received: from imo-m22.mail.aol.com (imo-m22.mx.aol.com[64.12.137.3](misconfigured sender)) by att.net (alnwmxc02) with ESMTP id <20070913155202a02008jh4te>; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:52:02 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [64.12.137.3] Received: from Motitan@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id 2.c0d.1f8d97dc (42809); Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:51:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Motitan@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:51:36 EDT Subject: Re: Jonis' bad poetry To: ajfashion@att.net, joni@smoe.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5042 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c-p1 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain Well poetry is one thing and songwriting is another. Words and music (IMO) go hand in hand. Sure, sometimes you can take the words away from the music and they are still a fine, fine set of lyrics. But surely they are not a poem. Poetry has a certain structure (depending on the writer and what they use) and songs have a completely different structure. I'd like to say there is more room as far as structure goes in songwriting which makes it all the more interesting. It seems if you have no structure in a poem, it's hardly a poem at all. But then again all poetry is subjective (as are songs really). There are many poets (actual poets) who are revered who I couldn't care less for. Robert Frost for one.... - -Monika ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:46:27 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: sjc? a little Joni in the workplace Bonjour, Joniami(e)s! I just had a third meeting with a BME (biomedical engineering major....why do I always get the science guys?) student I am mentoring this semester. He's a cutie and we are really connecting (which is good because the name of the program is UConn Connects). We were talking academics, and then drifted off to sports (the memory of how he looked in school, playing football) (then, Go Red Sox!) and then his living situation. Last year he lived in my old 1972-1973 stomping grounds (the "Jungle") where they have really hard walls that you can't put pins into. So we commiserated on how we had to put up all of our posters with tape. I then shared that I still have a poster from my college days that I treasure (although I have yet to get it framed). I told him it's all yellowed and has brownish tape marks on it but that I still cherish it. (Hi Catherine!) S: What's it a poster of? P (bright as a neon light): Joni Mitchell ! S (laughing and shaking his head): Figures! I'd say we're really getting to know each other. And the first time we met, he had never heard of her. Smiling, Patti P., JM Missionary _________________________________________________________________ Share your special parenting moments! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:50:49 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: spam: SV: Night of the iguana Ok, Kate, I see your point. And yes, there is a reference to a "kid in a see-through blouse" a "sweet sixteen" and the widow's "lover boys", all indicating young people. It's just that when I think of child molestation I imagine children younger than 15. Maybe that's because here in Sweden the age of consent is 15. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Kate Bennett Skickat: den 13 september 2007 18:38 Till: 'Marion Leffler'; joni@smoe.org Dmne: RE: spam: SV: Night of the iguana Hi Marion. It doesn't 'have to'- this is just my first impression which is certainly colored by what has been currently going on for a few years where I live in SoCal (many people receiving settlements from the church for being molested as children by priests & the church covering it up) It is especially this part- 'took his church from him' that indicates this situation IMO- many that once were members, have left the church (or had their church taken away from them in essence) also, in other places in the lyrics there are at least two references to youth - -----Original Message----- From: Marion Leffler [mailto:marionleffler@telia.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:26 AM To: 'Kate Bennett'; joni@smoe.org Subject: spam: SV: Night of the iguana Why does "the same sweet sin" have to imply child molestation? I haven't seen the film or read the play, so I wouldn't know but reading those lines I got the impression the line referred simply to some carnal sin, that is to some sexual activity not tolerated by the church. Marion ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:47:08 +0100 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: RE: spam: SV: Night of the iguana I just read a summary of the story from The Night of the Iguana and indeed the main protagonist, while a man of the cloth, did molest a young person - said young person, now somewhat grown up shows up as part of tour group on the bus he's tour director for. So those dots seem to join up. Les (london) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Kate Bennett Sent: 13 September 2007 17:38 To: 'Marion Leffler'; joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: spam: SV: Night of the iguana Hi Marion. It doesn't 'have to'- this is just my first impression which is certainly colored by what has been currently going on for a few years where I live in SoCal (many people receiving settlements from the church for being molested as children by priests & the church covering it up) It is especially this part- 'took his church from him' that indicates this situation IMO- many that once were members, have left the church (or had their church taken away from them in essence) also, in other places in the lyrics there are at least two references to youth - -----Original Message----- From: Marion Leffler [mailto:marionleffler@telia.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:26 AM To: 'Kate Bennett'; joni@smoe.org Subject: spam: SV: Night of the iguana Why does "the same sweet sin" have to imply child molestation? I haven't seen the film or read the play, so I wouldn't know but reading those lines I got the impression the line referred simply to some carnal sin, that is to some sexual activity not tolerated by the church. Marion ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:53:36 +0000 From: ajfashion@att.net Subject: Re: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [Top-posting intentionally.] Well, I get all that. (I'm not a historian, but I read a lot of history.) I guess I think she's expressing her opinion, a lot of which I think has validity, and no songwriter can possibly encompass all the complexities of the history of war in a song. And--and nothing against guys here, I heart guys--if you look at history, it is men who have lead the armies, colonized and exploited entire continents, and done virtually all of the raping and the pillaging. Women have never had, and still don't have, the _power_ to do this. I agree it's a simplification, but almost every wide-sweeping statement in a song about culture is bound to be somewhat simplified, which is why most songs tend to be more lyrical in tone, rather than epic. I need to quit talking about this song until I hear it! - --AJ - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > I didn't quite finish. As to the history of war, Joni expresses an > over-simplified view. First of all, the reason for wars have varied through > history. Secondly, explaining and understanding war by referring to (all) > men's inherent traits of violence and will to kill each other (and women and > children, too) doesn't really make sense. There is a lot more to wars than > that. An important factor is the social structures of opposing societies, > another is cultural differences. A third is the struggle over power in > various areas. These have all varied over time. > Marion > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Marion > Leffler > Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:59 > Till: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni > LIST' > Dmne: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and > she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history per > se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a > complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making up > our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history of > mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention just > a few. > > Marion > > > > _____ > > Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] > Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 > Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' > Dmne: Re: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > > > > > -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" > : -------------- > > > > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a professional > > > historian, the lines > > "Strong and wrong you win-- > > Only because > > That's the way its always been. > > Men love war! > > That's what history' s for. > > History... > > A mass--murder mystery... > > His story" > > bug me. > > > > >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. > > > > Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated > > perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, > > but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to look at the history > > of the last couple of millennia. > > > > --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:56:19 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: Jonis' bad poetry Hi AJ and All, AJ, your opinion put into words is right on to be respected. But, I was thinking last night that maybe Joni's style in simplicity this time around, on the record, 'Shine,' could possibly be for a reason. You see, my nephews, nieces, past students, along with many adults are\were not able to capture Joni's true meanings, her highly developed common sense, and her vision. Reminds me somewhat of Jesus' teachings vs St. Augustine's. Jesus was so simple in language so that the masses could grasp what he was teaching. That says it all for this Magical Physician. Now, think of St. Augustine's work. A fine mean ol' daddy as a philosopher and theologian, having been influenced by the works of Plato and other great philosophers. I had a difficult time getting past the preface. :) But one must keep on studying the lines over and over to get to the points in his reasoning, which once understood, is nearly unbelievable in beauty and clarity. You know, I could be wrong. But Joni may very well be using the simple strategy for a reason. Most people now, in this land of snap decisions and short attention spans, who will be fortunate enough to give Joni a little listen this time around, may find her lyrics and music quite pleasing, easy listening, accompanied with a powerful punch of love and truth straight to the heart, without all the trouble it takes for deeper thinking and reasoning. No matter the style and structure, Joni's works are worth their weight in gold, the moon and stars. I hope that many will be listening, for Joni has lots of wisdom to share for those who want to relate to a higher power beyond these times of restless multiplicity and downright stupidity. Sincerely, Jeannie ajfashion@att.net wrote: -------------- Original message from missblux@googlemail.com: -------------- > Having recently joined the lurkers, I'm being brought back to activity > by Richard and AJ being so adamant about this. It's probably an old > discussion, but I'd like to know how you distinguish poetry from > lyrics and why you consider this one to be bad poetry. It's not that I > want to disagree or feel you are being blasphemous, I'm just really > curious! > Reasons, reasons, please! > Best > Bene Volumes could be written on this by minds far more astute than mine, but a couple of brief observations. Lyrics are enhanced by music, even the greatest lyrics whose brilliant use of language stuns me (i.e. Stephen Sondheim and Mitchell). Lyrics, even great ones, are never as powerful on the page or read aloud, as they are when put together with their music. Poems have, inherently within them, their own music (Yeats is the pre-eminent example of this in the twentieth century). Mitchell's lyrics in The New Yorker, if considered as a poem, have no real sense of line breaks; have too many abstractions (rather than concrete specific language); an unsatisfactory conclusion; use of cliched language; weak imagery; and lack of something ineffable which a good poem has, the sense that the writer has some great stake in saying what she is saying. Good poetry tends ultimately to ride on the power of language, and these lyrics don't do that. Now, please understand, that doesn't mean I won't find it, when I hear it, a great great song, with great lyrics. (If one looks at the lyrics of "Judgement of the Moon and Stars" as a poem, it has many of the same problems, and I think the lyrics to that song are as good as any anywhere. Same goes for many, many Mitchell songs). Lyrics and poems use the same tool: language, but they are different things. Lyrics need their music. (And poems, IMO, don't need music, but we've already covered the "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" debate.) Unfortunately the vast majority of people read little, if any contemporary poetry (though they may have been exposed to the great modernists and some mid-century poems in college), so it's somewhat difficult to explain. Also, I'm not the most articulate person explaining this (and please don't ask me the difference between poetry and prose!). But I hope this helps a little. - --AJ - --------------------------------- Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:06:51 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry My original point was that there is no point in criticising Jonis lyrics for being bad poetry or bad history. Of course she expresses her opinions in her song lyrics. Marion _____ Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 18:54 Till: Marion Leffler; 'Marion Leffler'; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: Re: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry [Top-posting intentionally.] Well, I get all that. (I'm not a historian, but I read a lot of history.) I guess I think she's expressing her opinion, a lot of which I think has validity, and no songwriter can possibly encompass all the complexities of the history of war in a song. And--and nothing against guys here, I heart guys--if you look at history, it is men who have lead the armies, colonized and exploited entire continents, and done virtually all of the raping and the pillaging. Women have never had, and still don't have, the _power_ to do this. I agree it's a simplification, but almost every wide-sweeping statement in a song about culture is bound to be somewhat simplified, which is why most songs tend to be more lyrical in tone, rather than epic. I need to quit talking about this song until I hear it! - --AJ - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > I didn't quite finish. As to the history of war, Joni expresses an > over-simplified view. First of all, the reason for wars have varied through > history. Secondly, explaining and understanding war by referring to (all) > men's inherent traits of violence and will to kill each other (and women and > children, too) doesn't really make sense. There is a lot more to wars than > that. An important factor is the social structures of opposing societies, > another is cultural differences. A third is the struggle over power in > various areas. These have all varied over time. > Marion > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Marion > Leffler & gt; Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:59 > Till: ajfashion@att.net; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni > LIST' > Dmne: SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry > > Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and > she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history per > se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a > complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making up > our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history of > mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention just > a few. > > Marion > > > > _____ > > Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] > Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 > Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' > Dmne: Re: S V: Jonis' bad poetry > > > > > > -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" > : -------------- > > > > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a professional > > > historian, the lines > > "Strong and wrong you win-- > > Only because > > That's the way its always been. > > Men love war! > > That's what history' s for. > > History... > > A mass--murder mystery... > > His story" > > bug me. > > > > >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. > > > > Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated > > perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, > > but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to l ook at the history > > of the last couple of millennia. > > > > --AJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:07:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: RE : SV: SV: Jonis' bad poetry I agree, Marion. Not an historian here (although I have taken Cultures of History grad classes) but I will also add that historiographies we have come to know and ones that came out in popular history books are usually from a perspective of one historian and should not be taken as the last word on the matter. There are so many neglected narratives/fragments of history that are missing in a significant number of history books simply because some of them are 'unthinkable' (e.g. Haitian revolution in the late 1790s; massacre of Filipinos in the hands of their 'liberators' at the turn of the 1900s). However, I think Joni is making a point when she said about "men love war". After all Oscar Wilde once said that war will always have a fascination for people (although he used the word "men") and it may have propeled much of the global changes that occurred in the last centuries and yes, even millennia. Not that I buy this argument necessarily because it reinforces that there is only one linear type of historical narrative that people should know (like what you said, what about other histories? or Other histories; or even other Other histories; or subjugated knowledges that Foucault mentioned famously in his "Society Must Be Defended" lectures a few years before he died). For me, Joni's lyrics below captured a prevailing notion most of us have about history and histories. I hope she is being sarcastic here because if that is how she sums of the whole universe of histories then I wil be inclined to believe that her perspective of history/ies is a bit outmoded. Not wanting to distract any of your discussion from Joni's lyrics. Joseph in Chapel Hill (who, of late, has been having bad dreams too but will not say that bad dreams can be good) Marion Leffler a icrit : Joni is referring to the history of war from a one-sided perspective, and she is also generalising this view of history so it appears as history per se. Looking at history from the perspective of a historian, history is a complex process of continuity and change. There are many histories making up our knowledge of our past: gender history, cultural history, the history of mentality, womens history, global history, labour history, to mention just a few. Marion _____ Fren: ajfashion@att.net [mailto:ajfashion@att.net] Skickat: den 13 september 2007 17:35 Till: Marion Leffler; missblux@googlemail.com; 'Richard Flynn'; 'Joni LIST' Dmne: Re: SV: Jonis' bad poetry - -------------- Original message from "Marion Leffler" : -------------- > So Joni is not a poet - well,she is no historian either. As a professional > historian, the lines > "Strong and wrong you win-- > Only because > That's the way its always been. > Men love war! > That's what history' s for. > History... > A mass--murder mystery... > His story" > bug me. >They reveal an outdated perspective on (the science of) history. Just curious (since I'm not a historian), but how is this an outdated perspective on the science of history? I mean, it's not good poetry, but it seems to me one perfectly reasonable way to look at the history of the last couple of millennia. - --AJ - --------------------------------- Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:11:04 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: spam: SV: Night of the iguana And please don't get me wrong, I don't mean to imply that after the age of 15 a young person could no longer be molested. It's just the term that changes and becomes rape or sexual harassment. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Marion Leffler Skickat: den 13 september 2007 18:51 Till: 'Kate Bennett'; joni@smoe.org Dmne: SV: spam: SV: Night of the iguana Ok, Kate, I see your point. And yes, there is a reference to a "kid in a see-through blouse" a "sweet sixteen" and the widow's "lover boys", all indicating young people. It's just that when I think of child molestation I imagine children younger than 15. Maybe that's because here in Sweden the age of consent is 15. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Kate Bennett Skickat: den 13 september 2007 18:38 Till: 'Marion Leffler'; joni@smoe.org Dmne: RE: spam: SV: Night of the iguana Hi Marion. It doesn't 'have to'- this is just my first impression which is certainly colored by what has been currently going on for a few years where I live in SoCal (many people receiving settlements from the church for being molested as children by priests & the church covering it up) It is especially this part- 'took his church from him' that indicates this situation IMO- many that once were members, have left the church (or had their church taken away from them in essence) also, in other places in the lyrics there are at least two references to youth - -----Original Message----- From: Marion Leffler [mailto:marionleffler@telia.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:26 AM To: 'Kate Bennett'; joni@smoe.org Subject: spam: SV: Night of the iguana Why does "the same sweet sin" have to imply child molestation? I haven't seen the film or read the play, so I wouldn't know but reading those lines I got the impression the line referred simply to some carnal sin, that is to some sexual activity not tolerated by the church. Marion ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #280 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)