From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #252 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, August 17 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 252 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Shine Lyrics..My take [Joseph Palis ] Issue #251 ["P Bear" ] Re: Shine Lyrics..My take [jeannie ] Re: Shine Lyrics..My take [FMYFL@aol.com] Now THIS looks a little more interesting... ["P. Henry" ] Shine Lyrics..My take ===>hope or hopelessness? ["Patti Parlette" On U2's "Rattle & Hum", Bono introduces their cover of "Helter Skelter" by saying..."This is a song that Charles Manson stole from the Beatles...we're stealing it back." I get the feeling that Joni is subliminally making the same statement. (I wonder how many people will now think that Joni is doing a Counting Crows cover?) On the other hand, part of her re-recording it seems to imply that 37 years has passed since she released it originally and in many ways we're in a worse mess ecologically than we were back then - almost as if she's offering it up as proof of the "we're strangling the planet" lyrics she puts forth in the new songs. Bob NP: Steely Dan, "Bodhisattva" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. 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In "Shine", the lyrics come across as biting because it does touch on timely topics we have heard and read about. Mostly the underside of the faith that is supposed to be spreading the good word. But the lyrics are not without its beauty. As was pointed out already, 'prisons' in the lyrics can mean enslavement to ideologies of any stripe one clings on desperately. But there have been real prisons too for novices training to be nuns and runaways. "The Magdalene Sisters" did not just show us this atrocity in Ireland but even inthe Philippines where I grew up -- so many documented cases of abuses and cruelties. I guess it dates back to the times of the friars and clergy people who lorded the archipelago for 300 years. If Joni's lyrics were no longer 'poetic' (broadly defined) as it was before, I respect that. Her maturation may have yielded a woman who'd rather state things her way in a more direct manner than before. I don't know if it is bitterness necessarily, or age. Or spitefulness for wars and global concerns. Maybe all of the above. Joseph in Auckland np: language of early birds - --------------------------------- Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:08:19 +1000 From: "P Bear" Subject: Issue #251 Mark , how much of that atmosphere was it due to the influence of Mary Jane , Mick Jagger and Dangerfield ? Is there anyone on the list who had any involvement ? I'm very interested in this > Jeannie , Church and State , those Pillars of Establishment run by the Rightist's . Yes it is written in stone isn't it ?! Politics _ Please don't get me started !! Gerald , very informative ! I love your in depth academic information . Thank You ! > Re:SJC Hotel California (long) [Mark-Leon Thorne mark-leon@iinet.net.au] > Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine [jeannie dreamin1957jeannie@yahoo.com] > Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine ["Gerald A. Notaro" notaro@stpt.usf.edu] - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Make shopping exciting. Find what you want @ www.eBay.com.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:20:13 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take I'm not even touching the lyrics yet. I'll wait on hearing the words alongside the music. To me, that's the best!! Jean ~~~ wrote: I too like Joni when her lyrics tend to understate, be minimalist and use figures of speech to state the obvious. That is why I thought that among her albums, HOSL offers a rich terrain for a reading and re-reading of her lyrics to discover newer nuances we have not seen/known before. In "Shine", the lyrics come across as biting because it does touch on timely topics we have heard and read about. Mostly the underside of the faith that is supposed to be spreading the good word. But the lyrics are not without its beauty. As was pointed out already, 'prisons' in the lyrics can mean enslavement to ideologies of any stripe one clings on desperately. But there have been real prisons too for novices training to be nuns and runaways. "The Magdalene Sisters" did not just show us this atrocity in Ireland but even inthe Philippines where I grew up -- so many documented cases of abuses and cruelties. I guess it dates back to the times of the friars and clergy people who lorded the archipelago for 300 years. If Joni's lyrics were no longer 'poetic' (broadly defined) as it was before, I respect that. Her maturation may have yielded a woman who'd rather state things her way in a more direct manner than before. I don't know if it is bitterness necessarily, or age. Or spitefulness for wars and global concerns. Maybe all of the above. Joseph in Auckland np: language of early birds - --------------------------------- Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail - --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:31:06 EDT From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take That's the same way I feel, Jeannie! I'll wait to read the lyrics when I hear the CD, but I'm terrible at lyrics anyway. I'm still learning the words to BSN. LOL Jimmy In a message dated 8/16/2007 6:23:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dreamin1957jeannie@yahoo.com writes: > I'm not even touching the lyrics yet. I'll wait on hearing the words > alongside the music. To me, that's the best!! > > Jean > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:57:32 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: Now THIS looks a little more interesting... Very Nice Mendel poster... Signed!: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230162138282 Best Regards, Pat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:23:17 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: Shine Lyrics..My take ===>hope or hopelessness? Monika wrote: Well, it seems anything Joni does is controversial, for lack of a better word. In this day in age, I think the lyrics fit perfectly with what is going on in the world. A good number of people recognize the atrocities of today and aren't happy with it. Joni is voicing this so eloquently as she does. I know the world is not a shiny, happy place overall. I do however think good exists behind the veils of tragedy, dishonesty, and lack of courtesy though. I also think the lyrics reflect hope. Though people are constantly complaining about things that seem like they will never change (or end as far as the war is concerned) there is still hope among us. I think Joni sees that too. I don't see the lyrics as bitter or resentful or anything like that. Just as honest. **** Honest. Exactement! We hold this truth to be self-evident: Joni Mitchell Never Lies! I've got Em's bumpersticker on my fridge to prove it! ; ) She holds out a candle and she shines it in on the problems of the world. Illumination of corruption. The truth hurts, but it can also set you free. And to me, she sounds ultimately hopeful amid all of the hopelessness she's witnessed in all her years. "I stepped outside of my little house and stood barefoot on a rock. The pacific ocean rolled towards me. Across the bay, a family of seals sprawled on the kelp uncovered by the low tide. A blue heron honked overhead. All around the house the wild roses were blooming. The air smelled sweet and salty and loud with crows and bees. My house was clean. I had food in the fridge for a week. I sat outside 'til the sun went down." You can almost hear the arbutus rustling, and the bumping of the logs. It also reminds me of: But I know my needs My sweet tumbleweed I need more quiet times By a river flowing You and me Deep kisses And the sun going down Sounds like kind of a portrait of contentment to me. She doesn't need the deep kisses and the ensuant tears anymore, though. It sounds like all her needs are being met. Like the psychologists say: You have to put on your own oxygen mask first, before you can help someone else. You have to be whole. I like knowing that she feels this peacefulness. If she feels that, then she can help spread it to others. Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal. - -- Martin Luther King, Jr. Ah, my favorite things: Peace & Joni! And to throw a little lightness on these things, my new daugher-in-law told me that my son was afraid for me to give the welcoming speech at the rehearsal dinner because he thought I'd start going on and on about peace and Joni Mitchell! (LOL....I did not!) Peace & Joni, Patti P. P.S. Thank you, Kevin and Monika, for the hope you give us for your generation. It warms the cockles of my heart to see young people getting Joni like you do. So here's to you May your dreams come true May old father time Never be unkind And through the years Save your smiles and your tears They're just souvenirs They'll make music in your heart Remember this Each new day is a kiss Sent from up above With an angel's love So here's to you May your skies be blue And your love blessed That's my best to you _________________________________________________________________ Learn.Laugh.Share. Reallivemoms is right place! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:15:46 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Shine lyrics Michel asked: > Can anyone shed light on the > bizarre reference to the prisons of the Catholic Church?... > Here is one reference for you that Joni might be drawing from about St. John of the Cross, a monk who was a beautiful mystic poet, being held captive in a monatery prison. There is always corruption in the Catholic Church, but out of it the truth shines eventually and with it, reformation... like the Discalced Carmelites: On the night of December 2, 1577, a group of Carmelites, lay people, and men-at-arms broke into the chaplain's quarters, seized Fray John, and took him away. By a secret journey, with orders from Tostado, they carted him off, handcuffed and often blindfolded, to the monastery in Toledo, the order's finest in Castile, where nearly 85 friars lived. The acts of the chapter in Piacenza were read aloud to John by which he stood accused of being rebellious and contumacious. He would have to submit, or undergo severe punishment. But the accused friar reasoned that the chapter acts did not apply to him because he was at the Incarnation by order of legitimate authority, and he certainly was not obliged to renounce the way of life he had embraced along with Teresa. The punishment he received was imprisonment, according to the constitutions. His accusers locked him first in the monastery prison, but at the end of two months, for fear of an escape, they moved him to another spot, a room narrow and dark, without air or light except for whatever filtered through a small slit high up in the wall. The room was six feet wide and ten feet long. There John remained alone, without anything but his breviary, through the terribly cold winter months and the suffocating heat of summer. Added to all this were the floggings, fasting on bread and water, wearing the same bedraggled clothes month after month without being washed - and the lice. Teresa wrote to the king and pleaded that for the love of God he order Fray John set free at once. In the midst of this deprivation, Fray John was seeking relief by composing poetry in his mind, leaving to posterity some of the greatest lyric stanzas in Spanish literature - among them a major portion of The Spiritual Canticle. These verses suggest that in that cramped prison, stripped of all earthly comfort, he was touched with some rays of divine light. The cramped conditions faded, the friar's awareness expanded. "My beloved, the mountains. " Here too, in the dark emptiness, a spiritual synthesis began to flower. "Faith and love will lead you along a path unknown to you, to the place where God is hidden. Everything else gone, no one could divest him of these, and they gave him God. Taking advantage of a new jailer who was kinder and more lenient, John managed to get paper and ink so as to write down his poems. He also had the opportunity, during a daily reprieve from his cell, to familiarize himself with the monastery surroundings. Then, one hot night in August, after being held prisoner for nine months, emaciated and close to death, John chose life and undertook a dangerous escape he had plotted during the short periods out of his cell. He had discovered a window that looked down on the Tajo river, and underneath the window was the top of a wall. But, of course, there was a lock on his prison door. He solved that problem by loosening the screws of the lock while his jailer was absent. When the friars seemed to be asleep and the house all still, he pushed hard on the door of his prison and the lock came loose. This enabled him to leave his prison and find his way in the dark to the window. By means of a kind of rope made out of strips torn from two old bed covers and attached to a lamp hook, he escaped through the window onto the top of the wall. The wall encircled the monastery and its garden, so he walked around the top of it until he came to what he thought was the street side. There he jumped from the wall, only to find himself in another bad predicament. He had landed inside the courtyard of the Franciscan nuns of the Conception monastery that was adjacent to that of the Carmelites. Fortunately, in one corner of the nuns' garden he found that the stones in the wall could be used as steps, allowing him to climb over the wall to the city street and to his freedom. Some claimed his escape was miraculous. At any rate he was able to find refuge first with Teresa's nuns in Toledo and then, through their intervention, at the nearby hospital of Santa Cruz, where he was cared for secretly. http://www.carmelite.com/saints/john/b3c.shtml ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:54:20 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Shine lyrics Marion wrote: > (no birth control, no abortions, sexual inhibition generally, no > divorces, bans on certain books etc). To be a good Catholic you have to > create a personal prison for yourself. > Hi Marion, If abortion would have meant freedom for Joni, she wouldn't have Kelly Green today. As for birth control, historically one could say it was a source of prison rather than a freedom considering how many women using chemical birth control died from breast cancer before the right amount of progesterone was added to the pill. Birth control was invented by men so men could have sex with women whenever men wanted without the consequences. If it wasn't so and men wanted sexual freedom through birth control, they would have looked at tampering with their own physiology rather than the woman's. Sexual inhibition... I would say instead the Catholic church is totally sexual. The whole thing is set up around eternal consummation between God and the Church. For example read St. John of the Cross' Spiritual Canticle or The Living Flame of Love. Both are very sexual like the Song of Songs. Concerning the banning of books, the Catholic church is the only Chri stian church I know of that has had the balls to ban members from reading the Bible to prevent fundamentalist interpretations leading to the harm of people. In my experience with Catholicism, to be a good Catholic means to love as Jesus exemplified not to be legalistic like the Pharisees. My guess is that Joni is pointing to corruption in the Catholic church rather than the Catholic church at heart. I could be wrong of course. Love, Laura ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:39:30 -0500 From: "AJ" Subject: Re: Slouching Towards Bethlehem's First Origination - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" >I get it. Like if someone wanted to use Joni's songs as a soundtrack for a > movie, or as inspiration for a dance group. Or if a high school wanted to > present "Romeo & Juliet". Ahh, the rules have changed. > > Jim L. You've missed my point completely. If someone who has never read poetry aloud, and knows nothing about Yeats, wants to read SDB or any other poem as performance, I say go for it, please go for it. If a high school wants to present Romeo and Juliet or Lear or Hamlet, I'm all for it. If any dance group wants to use Mitchell or whoever as background music, go right ahead. Same goes for using it as a soundtrack (Good Bob, I'd love that). If Mitchell wants to try to sing a great opera aria, I'm right there, eager to hear it. Those are ENTIRELY different actvities that taking, and changing, and diminishing, one of the great poems of the 20th century by turning it into a song. Lyrics are not poetry and poems are not lyrics. They have many things in common, but they are not the same. (Andrew Lloyd Webber effectively proved this for all time in the 1970s.) (Don't get me started on ALW.) I'm not offended by great art performed poorly or imperfectly; I'm offended by great art being fiddled with, especially by a great artist in another field. I'd go on, but luckily for the list I'm back from a grueling and exhausting trip out of town--we were very very lucky to get out of Houston this afternoon, since several interstates, including one we needed, were closed and underwater for a long time. Then I get back, turn on the news, and find out more miners have been killed trying to save the missing miners. Too sad for words. - --AJ ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #252 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)