From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #251 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, August 16 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 251 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- great canadian songbook - joni covers on line ["Ron" ] Re:SJC Hotel California (long) [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Joni's lyrics on Shine [Andeemac2006 ] Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine [jeannie ] SV: Joni's lyrics on Shine ["Marion Leffler" ] Shine lyrics ["Michel BYRNE" ] SV: Shine Lyrics..My take ["Marion Leffler" ] SV: Shine lyrics ["Marion Leffler" ] SV: Shine Lyrics..My take ["Marion Leffler" ] Re: great canadian songbook - joni covers on line [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine [Victor Johnson ] SV: Joni's lyrics on Shine ["Marion Leffler" ] RE: Joni's lyrics on Shine ["Richard Flynn" ] RE: Joni's lyrics on Shine Reverend Pearson ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Shine Lyrics..My take [LCStanley7@aol.com] Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take [Bryan ] Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Re: Shine Lyrics..My take [Motitan@aol.com] Shine Lyrics..My take ["Patti Parlette" ] Re: Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 08:15:14 +0200 From: "Ron" Subject: great canadian songbook - joni covers on line hi think this might have been mentioned, but im not sure? 4 joni covers from the great canadian songbook: bsn,woodstock,fmip,all i want can be heard here: http://www.cbc.ca/radio2/singleConcert.html?20070502cndsb ron ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:36:05 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take I like your passion, Kevin. You gave a welcome perspective to this album. I tend to be open minded with Joni. Yes, she has become bitter but after all these years, she deserves a listen. There are some songs I listen to more than others but I never really had favourites and there just aren't any songs by Joni that I dislike. It's just hard to be angry all the time for me. I totally relate to everything Joni has said, either in song or not. I'm sure Joni is not angry every day either but this is her vehicles for discussing the way she feels about things that are important to her. She still makes me think and that makes her writing important. Oh yeah, I also think she is a damned fine musician and still improving after all these years. I'm just blown away by the fact that, at 64 years of age, she went out and learned to play the saxophone. BTW I also think DED is an awesome album and having lived my formative years in the '80s, am not offended by the use of synthesisers and Thomas Dolby's influence. Shine - the next lesson. Mark in Sydney NP Mr Pink - Level 42 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 17:43:07 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re:SJC Hotel California (long) Graet critique, Monika. I also like David Crosby's quote about Neil Young but, I was more taken by the situation he described. He made it seem like a very casual atmosphere with everybody just dropping by and jamming spontaneously. Neil was sitting on the front of his car playing while he was waiting for Crosby to arrive home. I really felt that atmosphere and longed to be transported in space and time to experience that. I was born slightly too late. I barely remember the early '70s but whenever I play that game of, "if you could go back and live in any time period through history and in any place in the world, where/when would it be?" my choice is always Woodstock or Laurel Canyon in the early '70s. I still have the original disc that was sent to me by Duarte in Portugal here so, if anyone wants it to copy and offer to the list again, let me know. Mark in Sydney NP Almost There - Level 42 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:16:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Andeemac2006 Subject: Joni's lyrics on Shine I would like to know what everybody thinks about these lyrics Shine on the Catholic Church And the prisons that it owns Shine on all the Churches They all love less and less This is no simple Sunday song Where God or Jesus comes along And they save ya." You've got to be braver than that You tackle the beast alone Strong and wrong What is God's will? Onward Christian soldiers... Or thou shall not kill... Men love war! Is that what God is for? Just a Rabbit's foot? Just a lucky paw For shock and awe? Shock and awe! I agree 100% per cent with her thoughts particulary these lines "Shine on the Catholic Church And the prisons that it owns---- Shine on all the Churches --- They all love less and less" There are a lot of hypocryts who go to church. For instance how Important do you think the "Sermon on the Mount" by Jesus is in modern day life I cant belive that many Republicans agree with any of it ?????? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:45:21 -0700 (PDT) From: jeannie Subject: Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine It's perfect timing for these lyrics. The Church must be purged from the dirty, dark deeds it has done in the off-night back-streets because they truly come out in the light and shine megawatts for all the world to see, so it's time to run the white gloved fingers over anywhere church and state have held hands, especially these days of so much transparency. Jean wrote: I would like to know what everybody thinks about these lyrics Shine on the Catholic Church And the prisons that it owns Shine on all the Churches They all love less and less This is no simple Sunday song Where God or Jesus comes along And they save ya." You've got to be braver than that You tackle the beast alone Strong and wrong What is God's will? Onward Christian soldiers... Or thou shall not kill... Men love war! Is that what God is for? Just a Rabbit's foot? Just a lucky paw For shock and awe? Shock and awe! I agree 100% per cent with her thoughts particulary these lines "Shine on the Catholic Church And the prisons that it owns---- Shine on all the Churches --- They all love less and less" There are a lot of hypocryts who go to church. For instance how Important do you think the "Sermon on the Mount" by Jesus is in modern day life I cant belive that many Republicans agree with any of it ?????? - --------------------------------- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:01:15 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: Joni's lyrics on Shine I would say these lyrics are valid for everyone who still holds some hope for organised religion(s) and doesn't want to believe that "God goes up the chimney like childhood's Santa Claus". It's a reminder that power corrupts and the Word is messed with by precisely the organisations that claim to spread it. Your last question: seems to me that the message of the Sermon on the Mount has been the most difficult to grasp or at least to live by throughout the ages. Maybe if we each one of us tried to practise it more in our everyday lives politics would have to change. On the other hand, that is just one of the many naove hopes I hold (but which get me through life, actually). Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Andeemac2006 Skickat: den 16 augusti 2007 10:16 Till: joni@smoe.org Dmne: Joni's lyrics on Shine I would like to know what everybody thinks about these lyrics Shine on the Catholic Church And the prisons that it owns Shine on all the Churches They all love less and less This is no simple Sunday song Where God or Jesus comes along And they save ya." You've got to be braver than that You tackle the beast alone Strong and wrong What is God's will? Onward Christian soldiers... Or thou shall not kill... Men love war! Is that what God is for? Just a Rabbit's foot? Just a lucky paw For shock and awe? Shock and awe! I agree 100% per cent with her thoughts particulary these lines "Shine on the Catholic Church And the prisons that it owns---- Shine on all the Churches --- They all love less and less" There are a lot of hypocryts who go to church. For instance how Important do you think the "Sermon on the Mount" by Jesus is in modern day life I cant belive that many Republicans agree with any of it ?????? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:09:30 +0000 From: "Michel BYRNE" Subject: Shine lyrics Have to agree with Mark. Not overwhelmed by the quality of the bare lyrics but the music could make all the difference. Can anyone shed light on the bizarre reference to the prisons of the Catholic Church?... _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:16:55 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: Shine Lyrics..My take I don't know if that is the majority opinion, Kevin. I am under the impression that quite a number of people on the list have pointed out that the lyrics are very critical of certain aspects of society yet they also have an underlying tone of hopefulness. That is not the same as thinking the world is a happy, shiny place. We all know it isn't - but some of us are not willing to give up hope for a better future, if not for ourselves, than for the ones that come after us. As for the age thing, I guess I was the first to touch upon it when I asked if Joni now had become a wise, mature lady. I don't know what "curmudgeonly" means. My thought was that compared to DED (which I like, by the way), she sounded more understanding (in a way that does not prevent criticism) and not just angry. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr KEVIN DOHENY Skickat: den 16 augusti 2007 04:57 Till: joni@smoe.org Dmne: Shine Lyrics..My take It's hard for me to read what seems to be the majority opinion about the lyrics..."Cromudgenly"??( I am misspelling it on purpose) I want to know what people are smoking that they think the world is this shiny happy place..Her lyrics reflect what most people of my generation are feeling right at this moment and its suprising to me that everyone else doesnt feel the same way..Ive also read people calling it "Dog Eat Dog" redux..Well I consider DED to be prophetic and waaay ahead of it's time..I listen to those lyrics and they speak to me as clearly in 2007 as they might have in 1985.(I was a mere 7 years old) Were people really expecting Joni to come out with an album an different than these amazing lyrics present? I feel the need to defend our lady simply because this is exactly what I expected the album to be..These are the first lyrics I have read in forever that actually spit in the face of the maniacs who run this planet..I am proud to the point of tears..thank you Joni ..thank you for every album past but most importantly for this upcoming one..This "cromudgeon" thing I guess refers to her age well for my money a nearly 64 year old woman has the voice of a loud as hell 29 year old jersey boy..I will play this album..full blast as close to the white house as I can get.. Viva Joni!! - --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:25:16 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: Shine lyrics The convents, maybe? - Actually, I don't think she is referring to virtual prisons but to the way the Catholic church inhibits the personal freedom of its members (no birth control, no abortions, sexual inhibition generally, no divorces, bans on certain books etc). To be a good Catholic you have to create a personal prison for yourself. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Michel BYRNE Skickat: den 16 augusti 2007 12:10 Till: joni@smoe.org Dmne: Shine lyrics Have to agree with Mark. Not overwhelmed by the quality of the bare lyrics but the music could make all the difference. Can anyone shed light on the bizarre reference to the prisons of the Catholic Church?... _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:28:44 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: Shine Lyrics..My take Well spoken, Mon! I'm with you on this. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Motitan@aol.com Skickat: den 16 augusti 2007 05:18 Till: cactustree1978@yahoo.com; joni@smoe.org Dmne: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take In a message dated 8/15/2007 11:08:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cactustree1978@yahoo.com writes: majority opinion about the lyrics..."Cromudgenly"??( I am misspelling it on purpose) I want to know what people are smoking that they think the world is this shiny happy place..Her lyrics reflect what most people of my generation are feeling right at this moment - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- - ------------------------------ Well, it seems anything Joni does is controversial, for lack of a better word. In this day in age, I think the lyrics fit perfectly with what is going on in the world. A good number of people recognize the atrocities of today and aren't happy with it. Joni is voicing this so eloquently as she does. I know the world is not a shiny, happy place overall. I do however think good exists behind the veils of tragedy, dishonesty, and lack of courtesy though. I also think the lyrics reflect hope. Though people are constantly complaining about things that seem like they will never change (or end as far as the war is concerned) there is still hope among us. I think Joni sees that too. I don't see the lyrics as bitter or resentful or anything like that. Just as honest. - -Mon ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 07:52:14 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: great canadian songbook - joni covers on line Yes, I stumbled on that shortly after it came out, and passed the link on as well. But hey, you can't have too much of a good thing. Sarah Slean's orchestral Joni covers are very well-done. With Mark-Leon's assistance these will appear on a Joni covers comp in the future. Bob NP: The Beatles, "Cry Baby Cry" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 08:33:17 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine Andrew - I like these lyrics a lot. For the most part, "Shine" can be interchanged with "Shame", I think. Some of my earliest impressions are: - - She's making a play on "this little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine..." - - She's saying that the crimes of the church should be illuminated, and by the same token the same light should illuminate the doctrines and philosophies that the church has all but forgotten. "Turn the other cheek", "love your enemies & pray for your persecutors", these concepts have been totally abandoned by the American Christian church. - - My thinking is that the "Catholic prisons" are another reference to the Magdalene Laundries, but it can of course be extended to anyone held captive by their particular dogma. I was also taken with some of the lines that you left out: "Shine on a hopeful girl In a dreamy dress" Now, I don't think she's using 'shine' as 'shame' in this instance - she's alluding to a church wedding, and the hope that a bride has. It brought back the lyrics of "Song To Sharon" in my mind. "Shine on Reverend Pearson Who threw away The vain old God kept Dickens and Rembrandt and Beethoven And fresh plowed sod" Does anyone know who she is referring to? A specific minister in California or B.C.? I haven't googled the reference yet to see if I can get any clues. I think this is a very strong song lyrically. Bob NP: Joni, "Talk To Me" - - - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 08:57:12 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine > "Shine on Reverend Pearson > Who threw away > The vain old God > kept Dickens and Rembrandt and Beethoven > And fresh plowed sod" > > Does anyone know who she is referring to? A specific minister in > California or B.C.? I haven't googled the reference yet to see if I > can > get any clues. > Perhaps this man? A bishop...who apparently wrote a highly regarded book on English divinity... from James & Devon Gray Booksellers: 476d Pearson, John. (1613-1685) An Exposition of the Creed. By John Lord Bishop of Chester. The fourth edition, revised and now more enlarged. London: J.M. for John Williams, at the Crown in Cross-Keys-Court in Little-Britain, 1676. $900 Folio, 7.5 x 12.5 in. Fourth edition. [ ]1, A-Z4, Aa-Zz4, Aaa-Ddd4, Eee3. The portrait of Pearson by Willem Sonman and J.H. Van Houe is present. The title page is embellished. The bookplate of Wriothesley Duke of Bedford, Knight of the most noble Order of the Garter, 1703 appears on the verso of the title. This copy is bound in modern quarter calf over marbled boards with a gilt spine. In 1654, [Pearson] accepted an invitation from the inhabitants of St. Clements, Eastcheap, to deliver a weekly sermon in their parish church. This he appears to have regularly continued up to the Restoration, without receiving any pecuniary recompense. It was at Saint Clements that he preached in substance the series of discourses which he published in 1659 under the title of An Exposition of the Creed, a work which is, within its limits, the most perfect and complete production of English dogmatic theology. [] While debarred from the full exercise of his ministry, Pearson defended the church with his pen against both Romanist and puritan assailants. [][His] reputation as a scholar was soon established, and his commendation was considered sufficient evidence of the value of a work. The Exposition of the Creed, on which Pearsons reputation still mainly rests, has long been a standard book of English divinity. It has won the highest praise, not only from Anglican theologians, but from such men as Dr. Johnson, Dean Milman, and Hallam. The last- mentioned writer says: It expands beyond the literal purport of the Creed itself to most articles of orthodox belief, and is a valuable summary of arguments and authorities on that side. The closeness of Pearson and his judicious selection of proofs distinguish him from many, especially the earlier, theologians. Pearsons preference for the scholastic method of theology appears in the book; it is a work of one accustomed to vigorous definition and exact deduction, and might easily be thrown into a form similar to that in which the schoolmen have treated the same subjects. The style is singularly unambitious, and seems to aim at nothing beyond the careful and accurate statement of propositions and arguments. The notes to the Expositiona rich mine of patristic and general learningare at least as remarkable as the text, and form a complete catena of the best authorities upon doctrinal points. (DNB) Wing P-998 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:04:03 +0200 From: "Marion Leffler" Subject: SV: Joni's lyrics on Shine Reverend Carton Pearson of Tulsa, Oklahoma. http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=6&t=643&m=1 for more info. Marion - -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fren: owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-onlyjoni@smoe.org] Fvr Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Skickat: den 16 augusti 2007 14:33 Till: Andeemac2006 Kopia: joni@smoe.org Dmne: Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine Andrew - I like these lyrics a lot. For the most part, "Shine" can be interchanged with "Shame", I think. Some of my earliest impressions are: - - She's making a play on "this little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine..." - - She's saying that the crimes of the church should be illuminated, and by the same token the same light should illuminate the doctrines and philosophies that the church has all but forgotten. "Turn the other cheek", "love your enemies & pray for your persecutors", these concepts have been totally abandoned by the American Christian church. - - My thinking is that the "Catholic prisons" are another reference to the Magdalene Laundries, but it can of course be extended to anyone held captive by their particular dogma. I was also taken with some of the lines that you left out: "Shine on a hopeful girl In a dreamy dress" Now, I don't think she's using 'shine' as 'shame' in this instance - she's alluding to a church wedding, and the hope that a bride has. It brought back the lyrics of "Song To Sharon" in my mind. "Shine on Reverend Pearson Who threw away The vain old God kept Dickens and Rembrandt and Beethoven And fresh plowed sod" Does anyone know who she is referring to? A specific minister in California or B.C.? I haven't googled the reference yet to see if I can get any clues. I think this is a very strong song lyrically. Bob NP: Joni, "Talk To Me" - - - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:05:05 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Joni's lyrics on Shine http://www.thisamericanlife.com/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=304 Reverend Carlton Pearson? - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 8:33 AM To: Andeemac2006 Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine Andrew - I like these lyrics a lot. For the most part, "Shine" can be interchanged with "Shame", I think. Some of my earliest impressions are: - - She's making a play on "this little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine..." - - She's saying that the crimes of the church should be illuminated, and by the same token the same light should illuminate the doctrines and philosophies that the church has all but forgotten. "Turn the other cheek", "love your enemies & pray for your persecutors", these concepts have been totally abandoned by the American Christian church. - - My thinking is that the "Catholic prisons" are another reference to the Magdalene Laundries, but it can of course be extended to anyone held captive by their particular dogma. I was also taken with some of the lines that you left out: "Shine on a hopeful girl In a dreamy dress" Now, I don't think she's using 'shine' as 'shame' in this instance - she's alluding to a church wedding, and the hope that a bride has. It brought back the lyrics of "Song To Sharon" in my mind. "Shine on Reverend Pearson Who threw away The vain old God kept Dickens and Rembrandt and Beethoven And fresh plowed sod" Does anyone know who she is referring to? A specific minister in California or B.C.? I haven't googled the reference yet to see if I can get any clues. I think this is a very strong song lyrically. Bob NP: Joni, "Talk To Me" - - - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:07:05 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Joni's lyrics on Shine Reverend Pearson And http://www.newdimensions.us/index.cfm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:13:49 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine Yeah, I'll bet that's it - I was unfamiliar with him. Life is for learning. Thanks for the info - and belated congrats for scoring those Stevie Wonder tickets, I know it will be a memorable night for you. Bob NP: The Drive-By Truckers, "The Presiden't Peni$ is Missing" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:25:58 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine Interesting stuff, and proof once again that Joni is not a typical head-in-the-sand celebrity. If you want to see a minister squirm, and him or her in a crowd if there is REALLY a hell. Bob NP: The Band, "The Weight" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:25:17 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Shine synchronicity? Pacman turns to hip-hop August 16, 2007 FREE PRESS NEWS SERVICES NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- Suspended Titans cornerback Adam (Pacman) Jones is not expected to play in the NFL this season, so he keeps looking for new ways to stay busy. First there was wrestling, now it's hip-hop. His National Street League Records, based in Atlanta, announced Wednesday that Jones will team with producer Spoaty in a duo called Posterboyz with their first single "Let it Shine" being released Aug. 27. The song talks about big money, cars and jewelry. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:34:31 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine SHOULD have read - "ask him or her"... Bob NP: Led Zeppelin, "Dazed & Confused" - ------------------------------------------------------------ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:35:54 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take You go Kevin wrote: a nearly 64 year old woman has the voice of a loud as hell 29 year old jersey boy..I will play this album..full blast as close to the white house as I can get.. Viva Joni!! Hey Kev, I love your energy and direction! I haven't read the lyrics yet. I'm really looking forward to it especially now after your post. Love, Laura ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 06:31:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Bryan Subject: Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take Well, based on reading the lyrics alone, I would venture to say that they are among Joni's least poetic, least imaginative, and least engaging songs. A couple of them are just pretty bad. That doesn't necessarily mean they will be unlistenable when the entire package is presented...too early to tell. But so far, I'm not impressed. For me, it's not the critical or negative perspective that bugs me, it's the lack of literary beauty. But, honestly, it's very close to what I was expecting. Now, part of me would honor Joni's courage for producing a largely political work. But more of me would ask why we need Joni to tell us that war sucks or that mother nature is in trouble. We know that. It is far more powerful (and enjoyable to the listener), I believe, to slip political observations and references into songs as asides or metaphors than it is to write entire songs on political subjects. We have so much evidence supporting that already. As for BYT 2007, aren't there additional, new lyrics? What's the point of recording the song again unless there's an update...a verse on global warming and SUVs maybe? Over and out, Bryan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:12:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: Re: Joni's lyrics on Shine > "Shine on Reverend Pearson > Who threw away > The vain old God > kept Dickens and Rembrandt and Beethoven > And fresh plowed sod" > > Does anyone know who she is referring to? A specific minister in > California or B.C.? I haven't googled the reference yet to see if I can > get any clues. > Carlton Pearson is the bishop of the Higher Dimensions Family Church in Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA. Pearson is controversial because he teaches inclusivism: the belief that while there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ, God will ultimately accept the implicit faith of those who - while not having (fully) known or accepted Jesus - nevertheless led moral lives. This includes adherents of non-Christian faiths. The doctrine of inclusivism (sometimes called inclusionism) is considered heretical - the opposite of orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is the body of essential Christian doctrines - those doctrines that make Christianity Christian and not something else. Heresy is [d]octrine which is erroneous in such a way that Christians must divide themselves as a church from all who teach or accept it; those adhering to heresy are assumed to be lost, although Christians are unable to make definitive judgments on this matter. [Source: A Biblical Guide To Orthodoxy And Heresy Part One: The Case For Doctrinal Discernment (an article from the Christian Research Journal, Summer 1990, page 28) by Robert M. Bowman.] Dressed casually in an open white shirt and no clerical collar, the Rev. Carlton Pearson was relaxed recently as he sat in his office at Higher Dimensions Family Church and discussed a controversy that has rocked his world. Tulsas high-profile pastor, mayoral candidate and Grammy-nominated singer has paid a high price recently for straying from the orthodox evangelical theology in which he was raised. His alma mater, Oral Roberts University, has denied him use of the ORU Mabee Center for the Azusa Street Conference and forbidden his church buses to pick up students for services. He has resigned from the ORU board of regents. Several associate pastors have left his church, and attendance has fallen off. National Christian publications and leaders have criticized him. He believes the controversy undermined his support among evangelicals in the mayoral primary earlier this year, and possibly cost him the election. Even his dry cleaner refuses to do business with him. A group of Pentecostal bishops has declared that Bishop Carlton Pearson of Tulsa, Okla., is a heretic because he preaches the controversial doctrine of inclusionism. We do hereby declare that the doctrine of Inclusionism is an unorthodox teaching and shall be classified as a heresy by the Joint College of African-American Pentecostal Bishops Congress, wrote Bishop Clifford Leon Frazier, chairman of the joint colleges doctrinal commission, in a March 29 report released to Religion News Service. Because of our concern for the many people that could be influenced to adopt this heresy and in so doing put at risk the eternal destiny of their souls, we are compelled to declare Bishop Carlton Pearson a heretic. The strongly worded report`Inclusionism: A Heresy Explored and Rejectedcomes more than a year after Pearson addressed the organization at a Washington doctrinal forum. At that forum, Pearson defended his gospel of inclusion. While many evangelical clergy believe that a personal confession that Jesus is savior gives a person entrance to heaven, Pearson has a different perspective. A more careful study of Scriptures will reveal that salvation is also and, perhaps more often or more comprehensively, pictured in a universally inclusive way, in which God is redeemer of the whole world or creation, including all human beings, he told forum attendees in March 2003. Pearson, 51, pastor of Higher Dimensions Family Church in Tulsa, was in Africa and could not be reached immediately for comment. The Joint College of African-American Bishops Congress is based in Cleveland and is part of a movement known as high-church Pentecostalism. Its members combine the fervor known among Pentecostal worshippers with vestments and other aspects of liturgical churches. The leaders of the joint college said they will now urge their colleagues not to welcome Pearson into their pulpits. They felt compelled to speak because they believe the suggestion that all ways lead to God is false. The document, which cites numerous Scriptures, said Pearson is guilty of gross distortion of the Bible. It notes verses in Romans that speak of the need for redemption. To put it succinctly, the Inclusionist (Pearson) rubs the sin-hardened repudiation of the Gospel message in the face of a loving Lord who died for the sins of the world, the 18-page paper reads. To suggest that the reward of heaventhe ultimate gift of salvationwill be provided to unrepentant, unregenerate man  is ludicrous in its concept, lethal in its effect and contrary to both the content and intent of holy writ. [more] - - Group Says Pentecostal Bishop Pearson a Heretic for Inclusionism Views, Religion News, Apr. 1, 2004 Servic Bishop Pearsons Gospel of Inclusion (Contra) by Bob Waldrep, Watchman Fellowship of Alabama. Ultimately Pearson asks to just be left alone, stating, The Church folk are having a fit [over the message I preach] and I say why dont yall just leave me alone? Im not hurting nobody, Im harmless.19 The problem, as with all who offer a different gospel, is that it isnt a harmless message. By denying the true gospel, it leads people from the truth; it becomes a barrier to their responding to the real gospel of Jesus. As such, it places them in great danger, as Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in the passage quoted above. But Paul wrote that not only are those who respond to a false gospel in danger, but so is the one who presents such a gospel Christian Carlton Pearson, The Gospel of Inclusion by Gary A. Hand Carlton Pearson wishes to see himself as the leader of a new theological approach, redefining God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, salvation and sanctification. He looks to himself as the head of the movement and to others in order to provide a foundation for his beliefs, pointing toward those who call themselves Universal Reconciliationists, with similar views. He uses the trendy terminology, that is so overused in charismatic circles today, that is supposed to assign a high level of importance and intellectual credence to what is being stated, indicating that a paradigm shift in thinking identifies his theological system, hoping to convince other people that he is doing great and mighty things. Paradigm shifts, no matter how they are defined by their proponents, must adhere to the teachings in the Scripture, otherwise, like Carlton Persons new theology, they are simply the old heresies wrapped in another package. Christian Carlton Pearson and Universalism (contra) by Mike Oppenheimer Pearson has recently come out with a book and statements that has endorsed universalism. Oral Roberts University took action and removed him from its board of directors due to his theological differences. According to The Tulsa Beacon, Pearson has been confronted over his teaching by televangelists John Hagee, Marilyn Hickey and his mentor, Oral Roberts. Roberts sent Pearson a 12-page response after he sent him details on the teaching. While I certainly do not agree with what these people mostly teach, what I do appreciate is even his own friends did not bend their views because of friendship and stood for Biblical truth on this matter. This is a rarity in these times. Pro Aberrational, Heretical, Heterodox, Suborthodox or Unorthodox What is Carlton Pearsons Doctrine of Inclusion? (Pro) by Gary Amirault I was asked by Carlton Pearson to write an editorial for the Tulsa Beacon, a Christian newspaper in Tulsa Oklahoma on behalf of himself as to what Carltons Doctrine of Inclusion consisted of. I assumed since he asked me to write it that he (Carlton) believed like I do, that is, the universalism expressed in the Scriptures by all of the prophets, Jesus Himself and His apostles. Here is what I first wrote. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:57:37 EDT From: Motitan@aol.com Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take And as far as the lyrics go, you have to remember something Joni said that stands true. She once said, "she paints her joy and sings her sorrow." Her sorrow is what she sees going on around her. At other times in the past, it seemed, her sorrow was her own personal pain in the direct things she was feeling. But I'd imagine at different ages and times in your life, you feel and pay attention to different things. I don't know what'll be troubling me when I'm in my 60's but I can say the things that are troubling me today (in my 20's) are quite different than those that troubled me in my teens......and I'd imagine it all changes all the time...your worries and your concerns...and even your hopes and dreams for that matter.... And someone said (I couldn't find the email again to see who said it, my apologies) why do we need Joni telling us the war is wrong and this and that? When you look at it that way, we don't need anybody telling us anything really. But it's good to know other people recognize it. It's good to know Joni is spreading the word more than you or I could ever do. A load of people will buy this album and hear what she has to say and maybe, just maybe it could change a LITTLE something. Sure, it's not going to change the world ("we can change the world"), we are way past that. Sadly, music just isn't that important nowadays and maybe it was naive for people to believe it ever could. Who knows though? But a good, in tune musician will pinpoint universal truths.....personal pains..or he/she will articulate something we all feel but could never express.....something that we can all relate to. That, my friend, is what a good musician does in a song. - -Monika ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 16:26:30 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: Shine Lyrics..My take Kevin wrote: "Were people really expecting Joni to come out with an album an different than these amazing lyrics present? I feel the need to defend our lady simply because this is exactly what I expected the album to be...." Right on, brother! "Papa says leave the girl alone, mother She's looking like a moooooOOOOOOooooovie queen." And nobody ever said "Hey, paint a starry night again, man!" Play what you want, Joni. All righhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhht. I'm just diggin' it all. First we get the album cover, then we get the lyrics, then we get the music. Joni is coming home. She's coming home! It won't be long yeh, yeh, yeh It won't be long yeh, yeh, yeh It won't be long yeh, till SHINE belongs to you Joni, Since you left me, I'm so alone Now you're coming, you're coming on home I'll be good like I know I should You're coming home, you're coming home! She could sing "99 Bottles of Beer on the Wall" and I'd buy it. Or maybe nobody buys it and it sits up in a loft somewhere. Or we all buy it and argue over which bottle is better, the 83rd or the 24th. I could drink all 99 bottles of her and I would still be on my feet. Sorry, that was silly. Now I get serious. Kevin again: "These are the first lyrics I have read in forever that actually spit in the face of the maniacs who run this planet..I am proud to the point of tears..thank you Joni ..thank you for every album past but most importantly for this upcoming one..This "cromudgeon" thing I guess refers to her age well for my money a nearly 64 year old woman has the voice of a loud as hell 29 year old jersey boy..I will play this album..full blast as close to the white house as I can get.. Viva Joni!!" Roar like forest fire, brother! However, the sad fact is they just don't listen. They're just stumbling, deaf dumb and blind on a highway to hell. "Shine" won't be out in time for the September 15th demonstration in DC, so let's bring Neil's "Living With War" and blast that one all through the dirty town. The powers-that-be won't listen, but the choir will like it, and maybe more will join in. The more voices on it the better, ya know? Just chippin' in my shiny two pennies, Patti P. _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:51:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Shine Lyrics..My take - --- Bryan wrote: > Well, based on reading the lyrics alone, I would > venture to say that they are among Joni's least > poetic, least imaginative, and least engaging songs. > A couple of them are just pretty bad. That doesn't > necessarily mean they will be unlistenable when the > entire package is presented...too early to tell. But > so far, I'm not impressed. For me, it's not the > critical or negative perspective that bugs me, it's > the lack of literary beauty. But, honestly, it's > very close to what I was expecting. > > Now, part of me would honor Joni's courage for > producing a largely political work. But more of me > would ask why we need Joni to tell us that war sucks > or that mother nature is in trouble. We know that. > It is far more powerful (and enjoyable to the > listener), I believe, to slip political observations > and references into songs as asides or metaphors > than it is to write entire songs on political > subjects. We have so much evidence supporting that > already. > > As for BYT 2007, aren't there additional, new > lyrics? What's the point of recording the song again > unless there's an update...a verse on global warming > and SUVs maybe? > Bryan, you've summed up very nicely what I've been thinking. The lyrics certainly aren't the complex lyrical ones we remember from Joni's younger works. They are pretty darn stripped down and, when read out, come off as fairly Hallmark-greeting-cardish, if greeting cards weren't warm and fuzzy, that is. It's more like the anti-Hallmark feeling, I guess! Some of them come off sounding a big like doggerel or bad rap. I think, I hope, they will sound better when set to music. Part of me wishes she would use more metaphor and less in-your-face statements. Maybe Joni is getting all Picasso on us and going back to basic line drawings. But we live in the age of short attention spans and competing sound bites, interspersed with BS "messaging" that politicians think we will buy, so maybe what's needed is a short, sharp chop. We don't live in lyric poetical times. Still, what could come across as grouchy or curmudgeonly, ain't necessary so. It could be just world-weariness. I find at my age I'm a bit tired of the same old history repeating itself, years of watching things getting worse while hoping they will one day get better, wondering WTF the world will be like for my kids and their kids. There's a tiny part that still refuses to give up hope, of course, because otherwise, I'd just go to sleep and not wake up again. There's always the joy of hearing children laughing, or seeing a beautiful sunset or someone's lovely garden, or feeling a cool breeze on a scorching hot day that dispels the gloom, and it's hard to be pissed off all the time. It takes too much energy. I guess that's the little light. Song lyrics don't generally make good poetry, and good poems are hard to make into decent songs. As for BYT, I think the only thing she changed was the price, from a dollar and a half to an arm and a leg. Maybe she's hoping to get airplay with this as a single. After all, everyone and his dog has recorded this song and a few have had a hit with it. Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 10:01:49 -0700 (PDT) From: KEVIN DOHENY Subject: Shine lyrics my take part 2 First off i love all of you..I love that I actually have people in my life to debate Joni lyrics with..I am a happy camper..Maybe I defended her apparent crabbyness because i have become quite crabby myself.. then when i woke up this morning and turned to my leo and watched him sleep..the world wasnt such a bad place then and of course it sometimes is the shinyest place in the universe..As far as my "majority" comment It seemed that every post I read had the same opinion so I dont think there is need for a poll..lol..i take that back..I do feel the need to clarify one thing..Since there is no tone of voice on here I need people to know that i am never ever mean spirited or mean to offend anyone..rosie and laura and a few others "know" me and I am sure can attest..but in case anyone felt bad i am sorry..(former catholic guilt NEVER leaves) lol.. much love from the only jersey boy who doesnt love bruce(ducks book thrown by Ro from south jersey) But I looove joni.. ;) xoxox Kev - --------------------------------- Choose the right car based on your needs. 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