From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #70 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, March 5 2007 Volume 2007 : Number 070 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Desert Island [Wtking59@cs.com] grrrr! and fiddle & drum [missblux@googlemail.com] 80'es stuff & a Q for songwriters [missblux@googlemail.com] Re: grrrr! and fiddle & drum [Victor Johnson ] Re: 80'es stuff & a Q for songwriters [Victor Johnson ] Re: Joni, Jackson [Bob Muller ] Re: Joni's Canadian Songwriters HOF induction broadcast on CBC-TV [Doug <] Re: grrrr! and fiddle & drum ["Stephen Toogood" ] Re: Joni, Jackson ["Dr. Katherine Whited" ] Re: Joni, Jackson [Michael Flaherty ] Re: Joni, Jackson ["Dr. Katherine Whited" ] Behind on digests... sjc [Garret ] Re: Joni, Jackson [Michael Flaherty ] Re: Joni, Jackson ["Dr. Katherine Whited" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 03:21:37 EST From: Wtking59@cs.com Subject: Re: Desert Island MY picks: ;-) 1. 'Court and Spark' (1974), 'For the Roses' (1972) and 'Miles of Aisles' (Live, 1974) by Joni MITCHELL. How can I possibly pick just 1 from Joni's classic masterpieces? These discs feature some of the most profound--and yet, most economical (especially on 'Court and Spark')--lyrics of her career. 2. 'New York Tendaberry' (1969), 'Eli and the Thirteenth Confession' (1968) and 'Christmas and the Beads of Sweat' (1970) by Laura NYRO. Again, how can I possibly pick just 1 from Laura's classic masterpieces? Impenetrably mysterious, Nyro's initial brilliance provided the map for Joni to follow. 3. 'Warehouse: Songs and Stories' (1987) by HUSKER DU. Featuring some of the best lyrics ever written (courtesy of Bob Mould) for one of the greatest--and most shamefully ignored--rock and roll albums of all-time. Downright epic! 4. 'Under the Big Black Sun' (1982) by X. The masterwork from the most critically acclaimed rock band of the 1980's, this was another overlooked classic that should've been huge! Unfortunately, after the divorce of songwriters Exene Cervenka and John Doe, they were never quite the same. 5. 'Eat to the Beat' (1979) by BLONDIE. By far their greatest album, and the ultimate in power-pop. Featuring versatile, gutsy vocals, Debbie Harry and company excel here on every level. XXXOOO, Billy NP: 'Things Are Swingin'' (1958) by Peggy Lee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:55:31 +0000 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: grrrr! and fiddle & drum Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:40:10 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: grrrr! "Her chords break harmonic rules, have no technical names and defy Western musical theory." .... Such ignorance-or is it an attempt to get our attention with something "outrageous?"-is just infuriating. .... - --------------------- Hehe, well David he could have fooled me! But you are upset with his ignorance, not because anything he says is offensive to her...? I was intrigued with what she says about rhythm in that interview: "I was using the fiddle to symbolize peace and the drum to symbolize militancy. Those Idith Piaf and Nokl Coward songs were all marches. That was the groove of the World War II era. White rhythm is waltzes, marches, and the polka. In Africa rhythm is used for a celebratory groove, but white rhythm doesn't have such an enormous vocabulary of spirits. It's basically militant." Any comments? David or anyone else on the list...? Best Bene ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 13:22:42 +0000 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: 80'es stuff & a Q for songwriters Hello all, thanks Les for posting that article, it was full of all sorts of to think about. Made me de-lurk after SEVERAL DAYS of lurking! So she sticks to her 80es / 90es work! I can only quote her again: 'they shake their heads and they tell me that I've changed'. I put my trust in her though, in fact it lighted up my day (its supposed to be spring here but clouds are grey and I'm locked to my writing desk anyway) that the journalist says about "If I Had a Heart, I'd Cry,": "It is one of the most haunting melodies she has ever written." Bring it on, my hopes are up! - --------------------------------------------------------- Here is what I'd ask her, because I'd like to know: (1) How do you write a song? (2) Does the melody or the song come first, or do they sometimes come at the same time? - -Since I'll probably not get to meet her: how would the rest of you (those who write songs) answer this one? I'd be very interested to know! - ----------------------------------------------------------- Here is what I'd listen to if left at sea: - -Keith Jarret's Cologne concert - because it reminds me that I'm human - -Eric Satie's Gymnopedies - -Carl Nielsen's symphonies 3 & 5 (fit on one record so that's ok). In case I needed drama. - -Hejira (would probably listen more to the music than to the words, for once, because presumably I'd never be heartbroken on that island? I'd be alone, right?) - -Teach yourself guitar (unless some of you people were around to teach me? Better not forget Hejira then) - -------------------------------------- Have a nice Sunday! Bene ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 09:29:34 -0500 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: grrrr! and fiddle & drum On Mar 4, 2007, at 7:55 AM, missblux@googlemail.com wrote: > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:40:10 EST > From: Dflahm@aol.com > Subject: grrrr! > > "Her chords break harmonic rules, have no technical names and defy > Western musical theory." > .... > Such ignorance-or is it an attempt to get our attention with something > "outrageous?"-is just infuriating. > .... > --------------------- This guy is an idiot. Chopin broke rules too as did Stravinsky and a slew of others. I don't know that her chords are so much in defiance of Western musical theory as he is just too lazy to analyze them. Victor ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 09:43:18 -0500 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: 80'es stuff & a Q for songwriters > Here is what I'd ask her, because I'd like to know: > > (1) How do you write a song? > (2) Does the melody or the song come first, or do they sometimes come > at the same time? > > -Since I'll probably not get to meet her: how would the rest of you > (those who write songs) answer this one? I'd be very interested to > know! > > I'm not completely sure how to answer as much of the process is organic and something I just do without thinking about it. In a larger sense, I guess being inspired helps as a starting point. The last song I wrote was "Ahdayneekay" which I wrote because I was in love with the girl of the same name I was dating. The song "Heavenly Eyes", I wrote the lyrics in the Greenville-Spartanburg airport and the music on Kay Ashley's backpacker guitar in Brooklyn. In that case, the words came first. Usually, if I have a line or two that pops into my head that seems pretty cool, more will follow, very much like a crack in a dam that begins small and before you know it, has spread across the whole wall till the water comes bursting through. Writing a song can be hard work though, much the same as drawing as I'm learning in my drawing class at GSU. There can be moments when you're extremely frustrated. Someone once asked Jerry Garcia if songwriting was fun and he thought it was a very odd question and no, he didn't think it was fun at all, more the contrary, a very hard and frustrating process. But then so is giving birth, which in the end, is extremely rewarding. I would characterize songwriting in much the same way though to be sure, it is different for everybody and some songs will be easier to write than others. Victor, amazingly coherent this morning though desperately needing some coffee > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Here is what I'd listen to if left at sea: > > -Keith Jarret's Cologne concert - because it reminds me that I'm human > > -Eric Satie's Gymnopedies > > -Carl Nielsen's symphonies 3 & 5 (fit on one record so that's ok). In > case I needed drama. > > -Hejira (would probably listen more to the music than to the words, > for once, because presumably I'd never be heartbroken on that island? > I'd be alone, right?) > > -Teach yourself guitar (unless some of you people were around to teach > me? Better not forget Hejira then) > -------------------------------------- > > Have a nice Sunday! > > Bene ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 14:41:06 +0000 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Re: grrrr! and fiddle & drum Wow the poor man! Probably he is just trying to say that she invented her own tunings - and chords(?) - but then he got carried away because he doesn't know what that means. I wonder where he got the stuff about Western music theory from though. I think it's all right to call her a rule-breaker though, it doesn't imply that she is the only one to have ever broken a rule. By that token we couldn't say she writes beautiful music....? This is funny! I got really upset when I heard some yoga-enthusiast preach that the word guru 'master' contains the words for 'darkness' and 'light' because the guru embraces everything... and tantra (as in tantric yoga) combines 'tighten' and 'losen'... in terms of etymology it's complete rubbish and quite upsetting - to me anyway, but my yoga friend failed to see why this is relevant. I once heard her give a talk where she said she had just learned that Greek diaphragma means 'soul', and how wonderful is that. But it's plain wrong! When I hear things like that I get really appalled, and then its strange to see how people who are not linguists really don't think it's important. But I'm ranting. It's nice to hear your opinion on this Victor! Benedicte On 3/4/07, Victor Johnson wrote: > > On Mar 4, 2007, at 7:55 AM, missblux@googlemail.com wrote: > > > Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:40:10 EST > > From: Dflahm@aol.com > > Subject: grrrr! > > > > "Her chords break harmonic rules, have no technical names and defy > > Western musical theory." > > .... > > Such ignorance-or is it an attempt to get our attention with something > > "outrageous?"-is just infuriating. > > .... > > --------------------- > > > > This guy is an idiot. Chopin broke rules too as did Stravinsky and a > slew of others. I don't know that her chords are so much in > defiance of Western musical theory as he is just too lazy to analyze > them. > > Victor ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:19:05 +0000 From: missblux@googlemail.com Subject: Re: 80'es stuff & a Q for songwriters Thanks for your amazingly coherent thoughts this morning Victor! Can't wait to see what happens after you get that coffee....! Another question: how much do you think about structure when you begin to write a song? Do you automatically think in terms of chorus and refrain? And how about rhythm and syllable count and so on? Sorry to be inquisitive, this thing puzzles me quite a bit at the moment! Benedicte On 3/4/07, Victor Johnson wrote: > > > > (1) How do you write a song? > > (2) Does the melody or the song come first, or do they sometimes come > > at the same time? > > > I'm not completely sure how to answer as much of the process is > organic and something I just do without thinking about it. In a > larger sense, I guess being inspired helps as a starting point. The > last song I wrote was "Ahdayneekay" which I wrote because I was in > love with the girl of the same name I was dating. The song "Heavenly > Eyes", I wrote the lyrics in the Greenville-Spartanburg airport and > the music on Kay Ashley's backpacker guitar in Brooklyn. In that > case, the words came first. Usually, if I have a line or two that > pops into my head that seems pretty cool, more will follow, very > much like a crack in a dam that begins small and before you know it, > has spread across the whole wall till the water comes bursting through. > > Writing a song can be hard work though, much the same as drawing as > I'm learning in my drawing class at GSU. There can be moments when > you're extremely frustrated. Someone once asked Jerry Garcia if > songwriting was fun and he thought it was a very odd question and no, > he didn't think it was fun at all, more the contrary, a very hard and > frustrating process. But then so is giving birth, which in the end, > is extremely rewarding. I would characterize songwriting in much the > same way though to be sure, it is different for everybody and some > songs will be easier to write than others. > > Victor, amazingly coherent this morning though desperately needing > some coffee > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Here is what I'd listen to if left at sea: > > > > -Keith Jarret's Cologne concert - because it reminds me that I'm human > > > > -Eric Satie's Gymnopedies > > > > -Carl Nielsen's symphonies 3 & 5 (fit on one record so that's ok). In > > case I needed drama. > > > > -Hejira (would probably listen more to the music than to the words, > > for once, because presumably I'd never be heartbroken on that island? > > I'd be alone, right?) > > > > -Teach yourself guitar (unless some of you people were around to teach > > me? Better not forget Hejira then) > > -------------------------------------- > > > > Have a nice Sunday! > > > > Bene ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:15:37 -0500 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: grrrr! and fiddle & drum I looked him up, David Yaffe, and apparently he's an assistant professor of English at Syracuse University. He has written his own book about jazz and is also a critic. Anyway, for some reason, I initially thought he was in the music department but clearly he is not which makes a lot more sense. I agree that maybe he was trying to compliment her but perhaps got a little overzealous when he said her chords have no names and are in defiance of theory. Not being a theory professor, he shouldn't be making these statements which are simply not correct. Just to put things in perspective, I've looked at actual musical scores, for example, from Ligeti (his music was used in 2001: A Space Odyssey, without permission I might add) and from a notation viewpoint, his work is far more complex than any of Joni's pieces. Victor NP: Keith Jarret "The Out-of-Towners" On Mar 4, 2007, at 9:41 AM, missblux@googlemail.com wrote: > Wow the poor man! Probably he is just trying to say that she invented > her own tunings - and chords(?) - but then he got carried away because > he doesn't know what that means. I wonder where he got the stuff about > Western music theory from though. > I think it's all right to call her a rule-breaker though, it doesn't > imply that she is the only one to have ever broken a rule. By that > token we couldn't say she writes beautiful music....? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 07:22:57 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Joni, Jackson Yep. Nope. Bob NP: Sheryl Crow, "Strong Enough" - --------------------------------- Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 10:44:45 -0500 From: Doug Subject: Re: Joni's Canadian Songwriters HOF induction broadcast on CBC-TV I'll be recording this tomorrow night. and you reminded me, I want to pick up that new Patty Griffin CD Doug Brian Gross wrote: > Just a reminder that the CBC-TV broadcast (highly edited to fit a 1 hour slot) > is scheduled for this coming Monday evening at 8PM. > > Do we have any Canadians set up to record it (on dvd maybe)? > > I'm set up to copy and burn dvd+R's here in south jersey usa. > All I need is a non-protected dvd or a vhs tape to copy. > > Have a good weekend everyone, and Happy Purim, > Brian > > np: Patty Griffin, Children running through > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Politicians and diapers both need to be changed often. > And usually for the same reasons. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Finding fabulous fares is fun. > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 16:31:40 +0000 From: "Stephen Toogood" Subject: Re: grrrr! and fiddle & drum Can I just say; so what if her chords break harmonic rules!? Joni is a really unique artist, and though I'm no music expert I hear lot's of sounds I'd associate with classical music. Ste >From: Victor Johnson >Reply-To: Victor Johnson >To: missblux@googlemail.com >CC: Dflahm@aol.com, "Joni LIST" >Subject: Re: grrrr! and fiddle & drum >Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 09:29:34 -0500 > >On Mar 4, 2007, at 7:55 AM, missblux@googlemail.com wrote: > >>Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 14:40:10 EST >>From: Dflahm@aol.com >>Subject: grrrr! >> >>"Her chords break harmonic rules, have no technical names and defy >>Western musical theory." >>.... >>Such ignorance-or is it an attempt to get our attention with something >>"outrageous?"-is just infuriating. >>.... >>--------------------- > > > >This guy is an idiot. Chopin broke rules too as did Stravinsky and a slew >of others. I don't know that her chords are so much in defiance of >Western musical theory as he is just too lazy to analyze them. > >Victor _________________________________________________________________ Rate your skiving credentials with our Slack-o-meter http://www.slack-o-meter.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:56:50 -0700 From: "Dr. Katherine Whited" Subject: Re: Joni, Jackson Sad, but thanks On 3/4/07, Bob Muller wrote: > > Jackson Browne?> > > Yep. > > > > Nope. > > Bob > > NP: Sheryl Crow, "Strong Enough" - -- "In every culture and in every medical tradition before ours, healing was accomplished by moving energy." Albert Szent-Gyorgyi, Nobel Laureate in Medicine ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 10:45:40 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: Joni, Jackson For what it's worth, Joni has said the song is NOT about Jackson, while Jackson has insisted it is. As is almost always the case, trying to put an exact biographical meaning on any of Joni's songs is a mistake--and the words in this instance certainly don't fit Jackson's case exactly. It's probably a hybrid of various stories, fact and fiction. That said, do I think the reports regarding Browne and Hannah influenced the song? Yeah, I do. Michael Flaherty On 3/4/07, Bob Muller wrote: > > > Jackson Browne?> > > Yep - --------------------------------- Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 12:36:42 -0700 From: "Dr. Katherine Whited" Subject: Re: Joni, Jackson Thanks for your insights Michael. When I heard that story I was already familar with the song's lyrics (back then I didn't read any entertainment news-lack of time not interest) but later heard that the song was about JB and DH when it made a PBS news program about spousal/partner abuse. Being a huge JB fan, I was stunned. Michael: For what it's worth, Joni has said the song is NOT about Jackson, while Jackson has insisted it is. Katherine: Perhaps it's like Poe's Tell-Tale Heart that he insists and experiences the song as his story. Michael: As is almost always the case, trying to put an exact biographical meaning on any of Joni's songs is a mistake--and the words in this instance certainly don't fit Jackson's case exactly Katherine: I don't know what his case is exactly, and I wondered what it was when I heard his lyrics for In the Shape of a Heart. For the most part I agree with the biographical meanings not being literal but then again there's always exceptions to the rule: FSTB on Hejira and the stories on Mingus. On 3/4/07, Michael Flaherty wrote: > > For what it's worth, Joni has said the song is NOT about Jackson, while > Jackson has insisted it is. > > As is almost always the case, trying to put an exact biographical meaning > on any of Joni's songs is a mistake--and the words in this instance > certainly don't fit Jackson's case exactly. It's probably a hybrid of > various stories, fact and fiction. > > That said, do I think the reports regarding Browne and Hannah influenced > the song? Yeah, I do. > > Michael Flaherty > > > On 3/4/07, Bob Muller wrote: > > > > > Jackson Browne?> > > > > Yep - -- "In every culture and in every medical tradition before ours, healing was accomplished by moving energy." Albert Szent-Gyorgyi, Nobel Laureate in Medicine ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 22:03:58 +0000 From: Garret Subject: Behind on digests... sjc I am way behind on digest again. I have been enjoying the HOSL discussion. This is synchronous timing. I recently put all of JOni's albums onto my ipod (it might just be winning me over!). So, i have been getting to listen to a lot of La Mitchell. A few days ago i was listening to HOSL and thinking to myself how amazing that album must have seemed upon its original release. I love jungel line; it's the song that struck me most when i first listened to HOSL. I think Monika said it reminded her of bands like radiohead andi can see wehre she is coming from. To me, there are echoes of jungle line in a lot of Bjork's more recent music (so when i heard a few years back that Bjork would be covering a joni song i harboured the fantasy that it would be jungle line, or perhaps s&l; boho dance is flooping great too). And i think that Joni has rarely been in better voice than that album (miles of aisles sounds great too). More synchronicity: Lorraine Hunt Lieberson was mentioned recently too; i've been spending some time listening to Neruda Songs lately. I don't thikn i even know how to form an opinion on it! Chelsea Hotel: There was a documentary about this on BBC 3 or 4 last night. I didn't see it. I thought that's what i was tuning into but it turned out that i had missed it and ended up watching a documentary about Lou Reed's Walk on the Wild Side. I am a Lou Reed fan, but i know very little about him (i'm not on any LRDL). This show was so eye opening. It really connected a lot of dots for me. I've been reading about he lieks of Candy Darling and jJoe Dallesandro for years but never really understood what it was about. It struck me as such a sad life, and so today i have been trying to understand what it must have been like for them. Andy Warhol appeared to me to lack conviction in his work (in the brief clips they showed). Naybe i'll have to goo and read about Warhol and the factory again. (i guess i could also learn to type too,lol) GARRET NP- The MOldy Peaches , anyone else but you ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 15:18:53 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: Joni, Jackson "Dr. Katherine Whited" wrote: Katherine: Perhaps it's like Poe's Tell-Tale Heart that he insists and experiences the song as his story. No, he actually believes that Joni intentionally wrote the song attacking him, which is why he verbally attacked Joni (I don't remember the exact quote). Also, keep in mind that Browne maintains that the allegations are false, so he would say the song has nothing to do with his experience. Michael Flaherty - --------------------------------- Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 16:41:58 -0700 From: "Dr. Katherine Whited" Subject: Re: Joni, Jackson Yeah, I understood the description of the way it went down. But what I am saying is that 'His experience' is not the act (as you interpreted) but rather 'his experience' was his reaction to the song due to his tell-tale heart. I was implying that it was his guilt that drove him to make it his experience of verbally attacking Joni (making it a big issue) instead of laughing it off as BS. KW On 3/4/07, Michael Flaherty wrote: > > *"Dr. Katherine Whited" * wrote: > > Katherine: > Perhaps it's like Poe's Tell-Tale Heart that he insists and experiences > the song as his story. > No, he actually believes that Joni intentionally wrote the song attacking > him, which is why he verbally attacked Joni (I don't remember the exact > quote). Also, keep in mind that Browne maintains that the allegations are > false, so he would say the song has nothing to do with his experience. > > Michael Flaherty - -- Love and Light, Katherine www.drkatherine.info www.mcs.drkatherine.info "In every culture and in every medical tradition before ours, healing was accomplished by moving energy." Albert Szent-Gyorgyi, Nobel Laureate in Medicine ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2007 #70 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)