From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #304 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, October 25 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 304 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Subject: Re: STAS ["P. Henry" ] Joni and God and us [Benedicte Nielsen ] Re: Laura NPIMH: LOVE (Corinthians 11:13) [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: joni & god [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Joni & The Holy Tree [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Joni and religion (sjc? not sure, sorry!) [Benedicte Nielsen ] Re: joni & god [] Re: joni & god ["ron" ] Re: joni & god [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Joni and religion (sjc? not sure, sorry!) ["ron" ] RE: Joni word of the week ["Bree Mcdonough" ] Re: Joni and God/dess and us/P.P.S. [Lady Isadora Subject: Subject: Re: STAS This is one where she states it quite clearly: http://www.jonimitchell.com/library/view.cfm?id=1455 and you can probably find more here in late '67-'68 with a search for 'seagull. http://www.jonimitchell.com/library/ J Kendel Johnson wrote: "Wow! Interesting. Sheds a whole new light for me." "P. Henry" wrote: Joni consistantly referred to the album title as "Song To A Seagull" in interviews prior to it's release. Pat - --- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - --- ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2006 13:38:38 +0100 From: Benedicte Nielsen Subject: Joni and God and us Hi, there are many things in the Joni and God string I'd like to comment on, it's really interesting. But, well, I have work to do, so just for now: funny how Ron's email was thought-provoking - in the sense that he is the only one of us who has said: I don't think Joni sees God the way I do... To stay in Catherine Tate-jargon: How DARE you think you are more enlightened...?! No that was a joke, but its weird how much people (present comany included)seem to identify with her... Anyway, work... Best Benedicte ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:23:23 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Laura NPIMH: LOVE (Corinthians 11:13) In a message dated 10/23/06 3:18:05 AM, owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org writes: > As a child I spoke as a child > I thought and I understood as a child > But when I became a woman > I put away childish things > And began to see through a glass darkly > > Interesting, I think, that when I saw this quote from Laura (and the bible) I immediately thought of Todd Rundgren singing "Real Man" (When I was a child/I thought as a child/II spoke as a child......" and then, James McMurtry on his most recent album, Childish Things, "I put away childish things....." Sorry for the lack of Joni content but it's a quick thing. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:52:50 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: joni & god Every time I've read or heard that story she's stated that she prayed to the Christmas Tree in her room and not to God. She probably realized at an early age that if there was a God with any powers he would never inflict such pain & suffering upon an innocent child. (I guess if you're Shinto then praying to a tree would equate with praying to God.) I tried to search the library for an article but the search engine wasn't working. Reminds me of Lance Armstrong's reply when someone asked him about whether he was thanking God for curing him of his testicular cancer - he said he didn't give God any thanks because then he'd also have to blame him for giving him the cancer in the first place. Bob Joni, "Refuge Of The Roads" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:39:35 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Joni & The Holy Tree "I don't know who I prayed to. I addressed it to the Christmas tree. I said 'I am not a cripple, not a cripple, not a cripple. I'm going home for Christmas. If I can pull this off, I'll make it up to you.'" - -Joni Mitchell She made a vow to the little Christmas tree that decorated her hospital room that if she got better, she'd do something special in life. She got better; the rest is history. At least that's the way I remember it. - -Anne Bayin, Joni's childhood friend Bob NP: Joni, "Woman of Heart & Mind" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 2006 20:28:27 +0100 From: Benedicte Nielsen Subject: Re: Joni and religion (sjc? not sure, sorry!) On Oct 23 2006, ron wrote: >hi > > >>>>benedicte wrote: >> ---------------------- I looked it up, charity translates Latin caritas >> which renders Greek agape which designates Christian love. An on-line >> etymological dictionary suggests caritas is deployed to avoid the sexual >> connotation of amor. So, depending on where you draw the line....! Seems >> to me that Jesus drew it differently from many Christians nowadays. > > one of the problems of the king james bible is that its not direct from > the greek, but is via the latin. > >in the original greek there are three types of love mentioned in: > > eros - love which includes sexual love > > phileo - love on a friendship level > > agape - love on a spiritual level. > >it is the last one which is used in corinthians. the amplified bible >translates it as > > "that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such as is inspired > by god's love for and in us" > >agape is also usually translated as charity in the king james bible. > > > >ron > - --------------------------- Hey, thanks for some interesting emails today! I know I should have known better than to say that you can draw your own lines between Christian love and erotic love, and that Jesus drew that line differently from where many Christians draw it. However... Surely, there is a fundament of agape in all kinds of love? What I mean is: I guess eros is also desire, so it cannot be agape because agape is unselfish. But there is agape in eros because you give yourself away. If there is ever a time when you feel forgiving and loving and unselfish and kind it's when you are in love. I find it strange that so many Christians are so strict about premarital sex - I can see why some people think it's a bad idea, but I also see something utterly un-christian about teaching people to withhold love and affection. Isn't that what Jesus was trying to say in some passage where he said about a prostitute that she will reach the kingdom of heaven before the rest of them, because she has loved a lot? Christianity may not be about eros, but I think falling in love is the closest many people get to experience agape, although not entirely undiluted. I love Nick Cave's 'into my arms' for that link between being in love and, well, feeling almost religious. I quote it below, but I guess one has to listen to it. I also think that is why so many people love Corinthians.. eerrrr.. 1.13? - and that they are not entirely wrong to think that it is about romantic love. God I hope I'm not boring anyone to death with this.... Agape...! Benedicte - ------------------------------------------ I don't believe in an interventionist God But I know, darling, that you do But if I did I would kneel down and ask Him Not to intervene when it came to you Not to touch a hair on your head To leave you as you are And if He felt He had to direct you Then direct you into my arms Into my arms, O Lord... etc. And I don't believe in the existence of angels But looking at you I wonder if that's true But if I did I would summon them together And ask them to watch over you To each burn a candle for you To make bright and clear your path And to walk, like Christ, in grace and love And guide you into my arms Into my arms, O Lord... etc. And I believe in Love And I know that you do too And I believe in some kind of path That we can walk down, me and you So keep your candles burning And make her journey bright and pure That she will keep returning Always and evermore Into my arms, O Lord... etc. - ----------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:38:20 -0700 From: Subject: Re: joni & god Maybe that was it. As usual, my writing was probably unclear. My point was not that she thought God had brought her affliction on her and she was asking God to take it away. I was responding to Ron's thought that Joni may not have felt moments God's love, power, etc. and that perhaps she may have felt that spiritual joy when she was able to walk again. Kakki Every time I've read or heard that story she's stated that she prayed to the Christmas Tree in her room and not to God. She probably realized at an early age that if there was a God with any powers he would never inflict such pain & suffering upon an innocent child. (I guess if you're Shinto then praying to a tree would equate with praying to God.) I tried to search the library for an article but the search engine wasn't working. Reminds me of Lance Armstrong's reply when someone asked him about whether he was thanking God for curing him of his testicular cancer - he said he didn't give God any thanks because then he'd also have to blame him for giving him the cancer in the first place. Bob Joni, "Refuge Of The Roads" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:46:53 -0700 From: Subject: Re: joni & god Here's one of Joni's version of the story from http://www.jonimitchell.com/bio/bio.cfm?id=230&from=url: "I started smoking at the age of nine. I had polio, and when I got out of the hospital, I kind of made a pact with my Christmas tree, or maybe it was God, that if I could get my legs back... At that time I'd broken away from the church because I loved stories, and they had a lot of loopholes, and, if you asked the teacher about those loopholes, like, O.K., Adam and Eve meet, they're the first man and woman, and they have two sons: Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel, then Cain got married. Who did he marry? It did not go over well. So I refused to go to church in the town for awhile. But I had this debt to pay back because I did stand up, unfurl, and walk. So I joined the church choir and one night after choir practice, in the middle of the winter, a girl had snitched a pack of Black Cat cork from her mother and we all sat in the wintery fish pond in the snow, and passed them around. And you know, some girls choked and some threw up, and I took one puff and felt really smart! I mean I just thought,"Woah!". My head cleared up. I seemed to see better and think better. So I was a smoker from that day on. Secretly, covertly, and I'm still smoking." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:45:28 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: joni & god hi >>>kakki wrote > Ron - your post is very thought-provoking. I can think of incidences in > Joni's life that seem to show that she has experienced the love, power and > presence of God in a powerful way. ...............................There > are other incidences along the way in her life that must have made her > feel that God was with her. Reuniting with her daughter, enjoying her > grandchildren, her sense of the huge creative gifts that she holds. My > sense is that Joni is just human like anyone else and not perfect but > always striving to be her best self. Sure she has an ego, but that tends > to come with the creative territory. thanks. i really believe that she has had far more of an experience with god than many religious people that i have know. many people have had similar experiences with god, a close moment with someone, looking into a childs eyes, a moment of comfortable intimacy with a partner, freshness after a storm, a cup of coffee with a good friend, any number of situations. joni has captured so, so many of those moments in song, from amelia, to hejira, for free, even in the sad songs like turbulent indigo & the magdalene laundries. especially in god must be a boogie man, which is a song which has had a huge impact on my life personally. i have no doubt at all that she has glimpsed & understands the nature of god. but i still dont get the sense or feeling that she has experienced the power & presence of god in that intense & personal way. ive been trying to put into words how it feels - but i cant. bet joni could tho :-) ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:51:36 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: joni & god And more importantly for Joni....DANCE! Bob NP: Andrew Hill, "Sideways" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:16:36 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: Joni and religion (sjc? not sure, sorry!) hi >>>benedicte wrote >>>> Surely, there is a fundament of agape in all kinds of love? What I >>>> mean is: I guess eros is also desire, so it cannot be agape because >>>> agape is unselfish. But there is agape in eros because you give >>>> yourself away. If there is ever a time when you feel forgiving and >>>> loving and unselfish and kind it's when you are in love.<<<<< i would totally agree with that. being in love with a partner is a blend of all three - you desire the person, you enjoy their company, and you care about them & you want the best for them. having an imbalance would, i guess, lead to problems in a relationship? i really do think that people are intrinsically designed to be in love - kind of like a natural high when all our circuits are working. some folks would say that it is a longing for the presence of god which is innate in the human soul - but i think it is a longing for all kinds of love. when i was going to church regularly way, way back, i had a great relationship with god & would happily spend hours in prayer, or praise & worship - but i was intensely lonely for human companionship & just could not seem to connect with any other christians i knew. the contrast between an intimate, vital, open, relationship with god, & a cold, distant, awkward relationship with the people around me was just too much to bear. there were many, many wonderful people - just no one i connected with on all the right levels. >>>>I love Nick Cave's 'into my arms' for that link between being in love and, well, feeling almost religious. I quote it below, but I guess one has to listen to it. the lyrics look god - im trying to download the song so i can listen to it. i must admit i know virtually nothing at all about nick cave except that he had quite a good song on the radio a while back - cant remember anything about it other than that i quite liked it. ron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:03:29 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Joni word of the week Banyans ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:04:27 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: words of the week banyans filigree wampum ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:11:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Lady Isadora Subject: Re: Joni and God/dess and us Benedicte Nielsen wrote: >there are many things in the Joni and God string I'd like to comment >on, it's really interesting. But, well, I have work to do, so just for now: >funny how Ron's email was thought-provoking - in the sense that he is >the only one of us who has said: I don't think Joni sees God the way I >do... Hi again, all... FYI, when I wrote some thoughts about DITS yesterday, they were specifically in response to the comments about it in the Bob Muller post I cited, since I haven't had a chance to follow all the posts in this string. Having been a part of the neo Goddess religion scene since the late '60s, well before Joni wrote this song, I can state with confidence, from numerous details in the lyrics, that Joni was commenting on this scene, whatever else were her intentions and feelings in writing DITS. However, I don't presume to know or guess how Joni sees God/dess, or even IF she sees God/dess-- perhaps there are additional clues about the matter in one or some of her most recent albums, some of which I haven't heard for some time, and to which admittedly I haven't listened nearly as often as I've done to her first several albums, which are still my very favorites of hers. But then, I also don't presume there's a God and not a Goddess, or a Goddess and not a God... I can see quite clearly with my own eyes and mind that there's some sort of Universal Intelligence at work, but ultimately I feel that the Powers That Be are beyond gender as we know it. I have close friends from several religions, and have participated wholeheartedly in a number of sometimes highly syncretistic religious observances. While there is some masculine deity imagery I hold dear, such as Arthur and Robin and Cernunnos and Pan (and, for that matter, Peter Pan, the "Junior Green Man", to quote one of my own songs), I personally tend for a number of reasons mostly to favor Goddess symbolism. Yes, I am very passionate about Goddess imagery in my creative life, such as in my songwriting, but I don't presume to dictate to anyone else which deity name or imagery they should use, if any, or what beliefs they should hold, as long as their beliefs don't inflict harm on others. In criticizing those hotline-to-heaven types who've dictated religion to (i.e. engaged in shameless power-mongering mass thought and behavior control of) so many others for so many hundreds of years, absolutely the LAST thing I'd want to do is emulate them. I do, however, presume to share my beliefs and ideas frankly, and the results of my research into mythology, religious history, etc., forthrightly, for whatever those things are worth in a discussion, and especially for the sake of the Grand and Fine Old Art of Thought Provocation, which I have long held dear. >To stay in Catherine Tate-jargon: How DARE you think you are more >enlightened...?! Benedicite, since you sent me and a very few others a direct CC off-list of your post (I subscribe to the daily digest, which I haven't received a copy of for a couple of days, actually), I hope I'm correct in assuming you're addressing the above question to me, at least for one... and if so, perhaps I should reply "How DARE *you* think *I* think I'm more enlightened" ;-)... but hey, how about if I simply suggest you really shouldn't make assumptions (if that's what you're doing, as you seem to be) about my thoughts or anyone's from one post? I did write that one *can* see Mary as a face of the Great Goddess... that deity "doesn't have to mean* someone or something above and beyond or remote from creation, etc. I also mentioned that historically there was documentably a Mother Goddess before there was a Father God, for that is so, even if it hasn't suited certain religions to trumpet the fact, or if there are those who are still unaware of it (it's not exactly taught in every school, after all, Sunday or otherwise), or who choose to ignore it. Anyone who doubts that "even" the Jews once worshipped goddesses should read Dr Raphael Patai's scholarly tome *The Hebrew Goddess*, for but one example. My being passionately artistic and articulate in my Goddess religion will, I hope, not be seen as any more presumptous of a position of superior enlightenment than a Roman Catholic being passionate about Christianity or an Orthodox Jew being passionate about Judaism. One could take any of the three examples and project onto that person that he or she thinks to be more enlightened than others. Perhaps that is so, in one's individual heart of hearts, but passionately preferring a certain deity or religion is not inherently any different from thinking a loved one is the best or most wonderful person in the world when we're in love. One can prefer one's own beliefs, and love one's own true love, and still respect the right of others to believe and feel otherwise-- as long as no one is harmed by any of it. The problem is, a great many people have been harmed by zealous or overzealous representatives of various religions, such as at the Salem Witch Trials, or during the Spanish Inquisition. >No that was a joke, but its weird how much people (present comany >included)seem to identify with her... ... Not sure what you mean here-- identify with Catherine Tate? With Joni? If the latter, don't we all to some extent, or we wouldn't be on this list? Blessings, Isadora http://www.ladyisadora.com "Well-behaved women rarely make history." - --Laurel Thatcher Ulrich - --------------------------------- Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 20:50:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Lady Isadora Subject: Re: Joni and God/dess and us/P.S. On October 24, 2006, in JMDL, Lady Isadora wrote ... >I do, however, presume to share my beliefs and ideas frankly, and the results of >my research into mythology, religious history, etc., forthrightly, for whatever >those things are worth in a discussion, and especially for the sake of the Grand >and Fine Old Art of Thought Provocation, which I have long held dear. Re the above, for those interested, these are some of the reasons my daughter and I founded Our Lady of Spiritual Audacity: http://www.ladyisadora.com/olsa.html >Benedicite, since you sent me and a very few others a direct CC off-list of your >post (I subscribe to the daily digest, which I haven't received a copy of for a >couple of days, actually), I hope I'm correct in assuming you're addressing the >above question to me, at least for one... Was just rereading what I wrote from my own CC, and my apologies for misspelling your name above, Benedicte-- in my currently very eyestrained state (been doing TONS of writing recently), I misread your name to be "Benedicite", as in the Latin blessing which was pronounced, in medieval England at least, something like "BEN-kit-tay" (according to my Chaucer prof back in college), and which may be found among other contexts in an ancient Robin Hood ballad of which I am exceedingly fond, in which Robin has various adventures disguised as a friar... :-) Blessings, Isadora http://www.ladyisadora.com "Well-behaved women rarely make history." - --Laurel Thatcher Ulrich - --------------------------------- Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:47:32 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: HAPPY B-DAY MAGS!!! & Hejira clip download HAPPY BIRTHDAY to you MAGS and many happy returns!!! Also here is a freebee Hejira clip download for all Jonibuds! http://www.yousendit.com/download/%2BcZGIdFEUTk%3D Cheers, Pat - -- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 00:51:55 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: RE: Joni word of the week Any banana? >Banyans _________________________________________________________________ Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:50:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Lady Isadora Subject: Re: Joni and God/dess and us/P.P.S. Lady Isadora wrote: >Having been a part of the neo Goddess religion scene since the late '60s, well >before Joni wrote this song, I can state with confidence, from numerous details >in the lyrics, that Joni was commenting on this scene, whatever else were her >intentions and feelings in writing DITS. ... Actually, one can tell the above from just one line, even though there are a number of others: "In flames our prophet witches" !!! Hallowe'en & Samhain Blessings, Witch Isadora http://www.ladyisadora.com "Well-behaved women rarely make history." - --Laurel Thatcher Ulrich - --------------------------------- Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #304 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)