From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #303 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, October 24 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 303 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni and God/dess [Lady Isadora ] Re: Real or fake? SCANS! [J Kendel Johnson ] Re: STAS ["P. Henry" ] Re: STAS [J Kendel Johnson ] Re: STAS [Doug ] Joni Mitchell Complete [Alice Brown ] Re: Joni and god [Alice Brown ] Reminder: Vote for your favorite Logo! [AsharaProducLLC@aol.com] Re: Joni and religion ["ron" ] joni & god ["ron" ] Rolling Stone article on the upcoming album [Bob Muller ] joni & god [] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 01:36:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Lady Isadora Subject: Re: Joni and God/dess JMDL Digest wrote: Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 04:17:23 -0700 (PDT) >From: Bob Muller >Subject: Re: Joni and God...? ... >God goes up the chimney - like childhood Santa Claus >(One comes to discover that God is a myth, just like good old Kris >Kringle) As a longtime Goddess religionist, who was already a young priestess since before Joni wrote this song, it was clear to me at once from various lines in the lyrics that she was commenting on the feminist Goddess scene at the time-- as an interested and informed observer, if not necessarily ever as a participant. Though for all I know, she may have at least dabbled in it, or perhaps had friends in it. The "God goes up the chimney" line should be seen in this context. Women weren't just discovering that God is a myth, we were discovering that there had documentably been a Mother Goddess (Mother Nature, Mother Earth, etc.) before there was a Father God, not only among the Jews, but among all peoples ; that Mary, Mother of Jesus, can be seen as one face of the ancient pre-Judeo-Christian Great Goddess (which at gut she represents to many people anyway, even if she's not accorded such status officially by the Vatican); that "myth" doesn't have to mean "fiction", even if it isn't literally true; that "deity" doesn't have to mean something or someone above and beyond and remote and apart from Nature, but IN Nature. All this was heady and empowering stuff back in the '60s and '70s. It still is! ;-) >The good slaves love the good book >(People who are sucked in by religion use their respective texts to >rationalize their behavior). So true, but the next line, "a rebel loves a cause", can also be seen specifically in the context of feminist Goddess religion, and the zeal of many women in it for its own "bibles", such as Elizabeth Gould Davis' *The First Sex* and Merlin Stone's *When God Was A Woman*, as widely-read replacements for the "good book".... >Of course this is not the point of DITS, but it's inserted in this song >about feminism to describe how women are marginalized and >subjugated by most, if not all religions. Women are definitely not marginalized and subjugated by ALL religions-- certainly not by Goddess religion, which was already thriving again at the time Joni wrote this song, and has been growing manifold by joyous leaps and bounds ever since. >And that's my Sunday sermon for today. Pass the collection plate & >give it to Pat so he can buy that fake picture. >Bob Not sure what you mean about the fake picture-- obviously there's something here I've missed-- but at any rate, here's my Moon-day sermon, then... and if we pass the collection plate, how 'bout we chip in on some lovely if not particularly clandestine Liebfraumilch? How many glasses was that again? ;-) Isadora http://www.ladyisadora.com "Well-behaved women rarely make history." - --Laurel Thatcher Ulrich - --------------------------------- Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 02:36:06 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: Real or fake? SCANS! According to their eBay profile, the buyer, "smebd", is located in the U.S., and you can email them from this link: http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ReturnUserEmail&requested=smebd&redirect=0&iid=230039392986 Doug wrote: $257.52 Though I'm no Art Expert, I'm guessing that this is a JM original. I see similarities in some small details, but not in more obvious parts. Why would someone copy it anyway, when they already had the original cover? Except to make a large poster sized version, which this is not. Anyone taking bets? Fess-up time. Who's got it? Doug P. Henry wrote: > To whom it may interest, sorry to those naysayers but I gotta say it. > (Les) I'm convinced. this IS Joni's first (or maybe second or third) > draft, there's no doubt in my mind and I predict someday it will sell/be > valued at thousands! Just look at the scans! > > Cheers, > > Pat > > -- > "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." > http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ > -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:30:17 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: STAS Joni consistantly referred to the album title as "Song To A Seagull" in interviews prior to it's release. Pat - -- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - -- - ------------------------------------- "The official Warner/Reprise release title is "Joni Mitchell". "Song To A Seagull" was part of the original artwork and wound up positioned under the "Joni Mitchell" titling added to the front cover by the record company, so many people commongly refer to that as the title." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:07:30 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: STAS Wow! Interesting. Sheds a whole new light for me. "P. Henry" wrote: Joni consistantly referred to the album title as "Song To A Seagull" in interviews prior to it's release. Pat - -- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - -- - ------------------------------------- "The official Warner/Reprise release title is "Joni Mitchell". "Song To A Seagull" was part of the original artwork and wound up positioned under the "Joni Mitchell" titling added to the front cover by the record company, so many people commongly refer to that as the title." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:13:32 -0400 From: Doug Subject: Re: STAS Funny thing is, though Song To A Seagull is and always has been my favorite album by far, by anyone, since I was 12 years old, I saw the title in the seagulls but never noticed until recently, when it was mentioned, that a few letters were cut off. I still have my old vinyl copy and sure enough, it is so. Doug did I use enough commas? J Kendel Johnson wrote: > Wow! Interesting. Sheds a whole new light for me. > > "P. Henry" wrote: > Joni consistantly referred to the album title as "Song To A Seagull" in > interviews prior to it's release. > > Pat > > > -- > "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." > http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ > -- > ------------------------------------- > "The official Warner/Reprise release title is "Joni Mitchell". > "Song To A Seagull" was part of the original artwork and wound up > positioned under the "Joni Mitchell" titling added to the front cover by > the record company, so many people commongly refer to that as the title." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 06:39:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Alice Brown Subject: Joni Mitchell Complete Hey You! (JoniBuds) Laura wrote: >What a GIFT the Joni Mitchell Complete, Guitar Songbook Edition, is! >Thank you Joni!!!! I've only heard about this book on the list. Is the "corrected" version available now? What had to be corrected? Most earlier songbooks did not have accurate music (showed how to "play" the songs in standard tunings, etc.). Does the songbook contain all of her albums, and is the music all accurate? Love, Alice ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 06:49:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Alice Brown Subject: Re: Joni and god Hey You! Kakki wrote that Joni calls herself a Buddhist. I find that exciting and thrilling for a number of reasons: 1. I always saw Joni as non-religious in practice but plagued by religious (catholic type) guilt. I hope she is now free of it. 2. I am an atheist, not a Buddhist or anything, but.. I find that meditation is tremendously helpful, and it has been proven scientifically to be beneficial mentally, emotionally, and physically. I'm emotionally intense like Joni, and it is a great thing, but also quite a burden in many ways. I think that meditation, and other Buddhists lines of thinking can be helpful for countering many of the negative effects of being emotionally intense. Hey Joni, you go girl!! You deserve peace and health AND FREEDOM!! Love, Alice Kakki wrote: There are articles and interviews spread out over the years where Joni discusses her childhood and adult religious beliefs. As a child she did sing in the choir at, I recall, a Presbyterian church. In articles from about 10-15 years ago, I recall her saying her spirtuality was influenced by a mix of Christian, Buddhist and Native American beliefs. Recently I heard she calls herself a Buddhist. Yet she also still celebrates Christmas. So I think you can say she does have spiritual beliefs but does not follow any one established religion or dogma. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:08:50 EDT From: AsharaProducLLC@aol.com Subject: Reminder: Vote for your favorite Logo! Yes, my friends, it's time to vote for your favorite Jonifest 2007 logo! Thanks to all who sent in entries, and good luck to all of you! Rules: 1) Go to: _http://jonimitchell.com/jonifest/logocontest.cfm_ (http://jonimitchell.com/jonifest/logocontest.cfm) 2) Click on the link at the bottom to vote for the logo you like best! 3) Please, only 1 vote per person!! 4) All votes must be in by midnight, November 2nd, EST. Also, if you haven't signed up for Jonifest yet, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?? There have been several people asking for singles. If you haven't signed up yet because there aren't any singles available, you can e-mail me with a request to be put on a waiting list in the event some open up, which they probably will. (First priority will go to those already signed up who are on the waitlist.) Hugs, Ashara _www.jonifest.com_ (http://www.jonifest.com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 23:06:22 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Re: Joni and religion hi >>>>benedicte wrote: > ---------------------- I looked it up, charity translates Latin caritas > which renders Greek agape which designates Christian love. An on-line > etymological dictionary suggests caritas is deployed to avoid the sexual > connotation of amor. So, depending on where you draw the line....! Seems > to me that Jesus drew it differently from many Christians nowadays. one of the problems of the king james bible is that its not direct from the greek, but is via the latin. in the original greek there are three types of love mentioned in: eros - love which includes sexual love phileo - love on a friendship level agape - love on a spiritual level. it is the last one which is used in corinthians. the amplified bible translates it as "that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such as is inspired by god's love for and in us" agape is also usually translated as charity in the king james bible. ron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 22:56:45 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: joni & god hi one of the reasons i always enjoyed jonis music is that she seems in many places to capture some of the essence of god. the logos - the word, the logic, the thoughts. unfortunately in many ways she seems to miss the rhema - the spoken, living, vital word. she can sing a beautiful song about love. intellectually - she clearly gets it. i would assume in a way far deeper than most people - certainly me. but, i have to wonder if she has ever really felt gods love, ever really experienced the love, power, and presence of god in a real & vital way that just causes praise to break forth uncontrollably. its not something vague and airy fairy - its real, intense, overpowering. she has the logos, but not the rhema....... im really surprised that no one has mentioned what is for me one of her greatest christian songs. and one which shows very clearly where she is missing the point - sire of sorrow/job's sad song. she sings the part of job & the antagonists. job doesnt know what is going on. the "vengeful, cruel, bloodthirsty god of the old testament" (as he has been called here) has taken everything - just for the sake of scoring points with satan. well - so it seems anyway - job is for me probably the most difficult & mysterious books of the bible. i really dont have a clue how god can kill his entire family & then replace them? but it seems to me that joni is stuck on the suffering of job, & never gets to what seems to me to be the point of the whole book: chapter 42 vs 2 to 6: (from the amplified bible which may not have the poetry of the king james but is essential if you want to understand the words rather than admire the form) 2. i know that you can do all things, and that no thought or purpose of yours can be restrained or thwarted. 3. [you said to me] Who is this that darkens & obscures counsel [by words] without knowledge. Therefore [i now see] i have [rashly] uttered what i did not understand; things too wonderful for me, which i did not know. 4. [I had virtually said to you what you have said to me;] Hear, I beseech you, & i will speak; I will demand of you and You declare to me. 5. I had heard of you [only] by the hearing of the ear; but now my [spiritual] eye sees you. 6. Therefore I loathe [my words] and abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. so - basically - while there is a lot about god that we in no ways will be able to understand in this life, experiencing the presence and reality of god in ones life means that we are able to know that he is real, he is love, and to trust him. i really, really dont get the killing etc that went on in the old testament. i mean, i know that it was the physical foreshadowing of the spiritual truths of the new testament, but i cant help feeling sorry for those people who suffered. but i do know that god has been incredibly good to me. ron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:47:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Rolling Stone article on the upcoming album http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2006/10/23/joni-mitchell-reading-rudyard-kipling-working-on-new-material/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:57:09 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Joni and God...? and that fake picture! ROFLMAO!!! Hey Bob, while I can appreciate the value, historical and otherwise, of things owned by Joni, I don't need to own them. Remember, I had the real thing. Cheers, Pat - ------------------------------ Bob wrote "...And that's my Sunday sermon for today. Pass the collection plate & give it to Pat so he can buy that fake picture." - -- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 23:59:17 -0700 From: Subject: joni & god Ron wrote: "she can sing a beautiful song about love. intellectually - she clearly gets it. i would assume in a way far deeper than most people - certainly me. but, i have to wonder if she has ever really felt gods love, ever really experienced the love, power, and presence of god in a real & vital way that just causes praise to break forth uncontrollably. its not something vague and airy fairy - its real, intense, overpowering. she has the logos, but not the rhema......." Ron - your post is very thought-provoking. I can think of incidences in Joni's life that seem to show that she has experienced the love, power and presence of God in a powerful way. Remember the story of her in the hospital with polio as a child? She was basically being written off and told she would never walk again. She has told the story of praying to God to walk again and then insisting to the nurses that they take her outside and let her try. She made a deal with them that if she could prove she could get up and walk, then they would release her from the hospital. After much back and forth they let her try and she showed that she had the facility to walk again. And look at her now, even though she suffers the effects of post-polio syndrome, she is so much more functioning in mobility in her later years than many who had polio back then. Right there was/is a miracle for her and it certainly must have affected her in a spiritual sense. There are other incidences along the way in her life that must have made her feel that God was with her. Reuniting with her daughter, enjoying her grandchildren, her sense of the huge creative gifts that she holds. My sense is that Joni is just human like anyone else and not perfect but always striving to be her best self. Sure she has an ego, but that tends to come with the creative territory. Maybe she has appropriated biblical themes and used them as metaphors for more earthly distinctions and messages. She is not and has never claimed to be a theologian or a biblical scholar. I do not think she has necessarily corrupted the basic themes. In fact, it may be that she is trying to provoke questions and discussions just as you've posed. As for the Old Testament, could it possibly be that those who wrote the books and related the stories portraying God as angry and vengeful might have been looking through their own glass darkly? They had not yet experienced the hope of their messiah and his message so interpretation was a bit off and lacking in clarity until the new covenant was established. Just a thought. I find these kind of discussions fascinating. I have the sense that God holds Joni pretty close even though she may be at times be, like the rest of us, a "fallen angel." ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #303 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)