From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #302 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, October 23 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 302 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: STAS [J Kendel Johnson ] Re: Nostalgia was ["Anita Tedder" ] Re: Joni and God...? [Bob Muller ] Re: real or fake [Victor Johnson ] nice, concise biography [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Joni and religion [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2006 #391 [Peep Richman ] STAS ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Real or fake? SCANS! ["P. Henry" ] Re: Joni and God...? ["Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" ] Re: Joni and religion [Benedicte Nielsen ] Re: Joni and God...? [Benedicte Nielsen ] Re: Joni and religion [LCStanley7@aol.com] RE: Real or fake? SCANS! ["Richard Flynn" ] RE: Joni and religion ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: Joni and religion [Benedicte Nielsen ] RE: Joni and religion [Benedicte Nielsen ] Re: Joni and religion [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Joni and religion [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Joni and religion [J Kendel Johnson ] RE: Joni and religion ["patrick leader" ] RE: Real or fake? SCANS! ["P. Henry" ] STAS ["Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" ] RE: Real or fake? SCANS! ["P. Henry" ] Gratitude [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Real or fake? [Victor Johnson ] Re: Real or fake? ["gene" ] RE: Real or fake? ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: Real or fake? SCANS! [Doug ] Joni and God [] Real or Fake - scans [] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 00:34:03 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: STAS The official Warner/Reprise release title is "Joni Mitchell". "Song To A Seagull" was part of the original artwork and wound up positioned under the "Joni Mitchell" titling added to the front cover by the record company, so many people commongly refer to that as the title. J Marianne Rizzo wrote: So now I am wondering. . . . How did it go that the album Song to a Seagull is also called "Joni MItchell." Did it not officially have a title? Because it was her first album. . was it called Joni Mitchell? ~ _________________________________________________________________ Try the next generation of search with Windows Live Search today! http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:22:37 +0100 From: "Anita Tedder" Subject: Re: Nostalgia was Richard wrote: "Anyway, when I look at the cover of STAS, I experience Proustian epiphanies--I can never look at it with even an ounce of irony. Perhaps it's arrested development, but Joni Mitchell has been my personal soundtrack since I was a child." Richard, that so resonated for me. My older brother came in from a concert at the Queen Elizabeth Hall in London I think it must have been in 1968 and told me that he'd seen a singer he thought I'd like who had an LP coming out soon he thought I'd like it. He went and bought it for me a few weeks later. I can often smell my Mum's old kitchen, my Dad's (very occasional) after shave and connect with myself at that time and space as a 14 year old in a quite extraordinary way when I see that cover. I started playing the guitar and writing because of Joni but "I realized I had to detune my guitar, so I taught myself open D and open G, playing, I'm sure, approximations of her arrangements--it was all by ear." Man, I wish I had been that talented. I would have given my eye teeth to have played Dawntreader but just couldn't understand what the hell she did and would give up trying to work it out. When I finally found the internet and our beloved site and could finally play it after 33 years - it was quite wonderful and very profound for me. Loads of love Anita xx ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 04:17:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Joni and God...? And I think equally so in DITS: God goes up the chimney - like childhood Santa Claus (One comes to discover that God is a myth, just like good old Kris Kringle) The good slaves love the good book (People who are sucked in by religion use their respective texts to rationalize their behavior). Of course this is not the point of DITS, but it's inserted in this song about feminism to describe how women are marginalized and subjugated by most, if not all religions. And that's my Sunday sermon for today. Pass the collection plate & give it to Pat so he can buy that fake picture. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:09:55 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: real or fake I was comparing them side by side and the original is clearly much more detailed and just has a much greater sense of artistry to it, a more discerning eye. The ebay version is oversimplified and everything is off. It just seems made more carelessly, unrefined and amatuerish, as if someone was trying to copy the original but not really coming close to capturing the same workmanship....a vague representation. On the original, the name wraps around one of the curls very cleverly but on the ebay version, its just written inside the lines straight, not really blending in with the rest of the art. Victor On Oct 21, 2006, at 9:36 PM, Marianne Rizzo wrote: > I think y'all should bid on this just in case. > > : -) > > I think maybe I am not seeing something right, but I printed out > the part of the drawing (on ebay) that has the "joni MIthcell" on > it . . and I cannot find it written like that on the album cover. . > > > I mean, it is written on the album cover. . > > but not in the same shape. > > but, > like I said, I just think I am missing something . . or something ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:03:07 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: nice, concise biography Born in Fort MacLeod, Alberta a young Joan Anderson moved to North Battleford, Saskatchewan with her parents shortly after Word War II. Inspired by her older friend Frankie McKitrick, she begged her parents at age 7 to allow her to take piano lessons which lasted for a year and a half. She also took up drawing and after moving to Saskatoon at age 9, she contracted polio which she forunately recovered from with the love of her family and art. In Grade 7, one of her teachers, Mr. Kratzman encouraged her to craft the written word and she holds him as one of her many influences. By her teens she scraped together enough money to buy a ukele (a guitar being too expensive at the time) and entertained at parties and coffehouses in Saskatoon. Following high school, in 1964, she went to the Alberta College Of Art in Calgary for only one year. Instead, she preferred to be a regular performer at a coffeehouse called The Depression in Calgary. She abandoned her love for painting (at least as a career) and moved to Toronto in search of success as a folksinger. Howver, playing clubs in Toronto in the '60's required a union card, which she couldn't afford immediately and she found herself working days for Simpsons-Sears. She was also pregnant with the child of her former boyfriend back home and gave birth to a girl in February 1965. Fellow folk-singer Chuck Mitchell offered to take the two in, marrying Anderson, but the allure of success and Anderson's age convinced Mitchell to give the girl up for adoption. By the summer of '65 The Mitchells had moved to Detroit. The new Joni Mitchell played the Newport Folk Festival in 1966 and her marriage to Chuck Mitchell fell apart by early 1967. With nothing to tie her down, she moved to Chelsea in New York to be closer to venues up and down the eastern seaboard. With the recording of "The Urge For Going" by legend Tom Rush and other cover versions by a variety of artists she was able to get bookings west to Chicago and south to Florida. New York was still quite elusive and with the help of manager Elliot Roberts she landed gigs in town. While performing in Florida she met David Crosby (The Byrds) who was impressed enough with her talent to convince Reprise Records to record and release the 'Joni Mitchell' album in 1968. By the time of the album's release she was garnering favourable press and was now living in California with David Crosby. The remainder of 1968 saw her playing larger venues including the Miami Pop Festival with Graham Nash (The Hollies). Judy Collins also had a substantial hit with "Both Sides Now" which helped supplement Mitchell's expanding salary. In 1969, Mitchell released 'Clouds' which included her versions of previous hit material she had donated to other artists. She recorded a live album (which was subsequently scrapped) and moved to Laurel Canyon with Graham Nash. She opened tours for Crosby, Stills & Nash and was invited to Woodstock that summer. But an appearance on the Dick Cavett show following the festival convinced her that she shouldn't risk getting stuck in the massive traffic jams. Instead, she played the Equinox Festival in Big Sur that September which would be filmed for release. 'Clouds' won a Grammy in 1970 which dovetailed nicely into the Reprise release of album #3 'Ladies Of The Canyon' eventually selling gold. She decided to take some time off with one, ill-fated, appearance at the disastrous Isle Of Wight Festival. Throughout the remainder of the year she travelled, painted and wrote material for her next album 'Blue'. The album was released in 1971 and became a critical and commercial success with a trip to Billboard's Top-20. By then, she had moved back to British Columbia, Canada to seek solitude on a piece of forested property. With frequent commutes to visit friend David Geffen, Mitchell was able to go back to the stage opening for the likes of Geffen's Asylum records success story Jackson Browne and onward to her own tours of Europe and playing benefit concerts for presidential hopeful George McGovern. 1972 saw the release of 'For The Roses' and her first legit radio hit "You Turn Me On (I'm A Radio)" making her a true commercial success in light of her stance as a pure 'artiste'. Mitchell soon began seeking out musicians who could help her grow musically and speak the musical language that her odd guitar tunings and eccentric rhythms. She hooked up with Tom Scott & LA Express for her next album 'Court And Spark' and even recorded tunes for their albums as well. 'Court And Spark' was released in January 1974 hot on the heals of her pre-Xmas single "Raised On Robbery". A second single, "Help Me", followed pushing the album to #2 over the course of the first half of the year. She embarked on a 50 date tour with LA Express which resulted in the November '74 album 'Miles Of Aisles'. The live version of "Big Yellow Taxi" was also released as a single and again put Mitchell high on the charts. She bought a new house in Bel Air, California, moved in with LA Express drummer John Guerin and settled in as half a dozen year-end awards came her way including 4 Grammy nominations. Mitchell and Tom Scott would share one award for Best Arrangement Accompanying Vocals. Recording commenced in 1975 and after a series of successive demo sessions, Mitchell re-assembled most of the key players from 'Court And Spark' for the November release 'The Hissing Of Summer Lawns'. Bad reviews followed based on some of Mitchell's societal lyrics but the album still hit #4 on the Billboard charts. She hopped aboard Bob Dylan's Rolling Thunder Revue to finish out the year with plans for a return tour featuring LA Express again. The tour began in January 1976 and took her all across the US and Canada. As the tour wound down, she split up with John Guerin and instead spent time hanging around with Neil Young. Some friends convinced her to take a cross country journey, which she did and she returned from the road trip with a suitcase full of tunes for her next album 'Hejira' which as recorded that summer and released in November. November was also Mitchell's guest appearance on The Band's "Last Waltz" concert and film for Martin Scorsese. Meanwhile, 'Hejira' was climbing the charts, went gold in December and lingered on the charts through the beginning of 1977. Mitchell continues releasing solo album after solo album and was asked in 1996 to go back through her extensive catalogue and chose the best of her repertoire according to their hit status and then assemble a second disc with tunes she felt were overlooked. The result was Reprise's "Hits & Misses" collection In 1997, Mitchell made frontpage news once again after tracking down her daughter whom she had given up for adoption some 30 years before. _http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Joni-Mitchell-Biography/8CD1873BEC39C3 B548256A42004CDCBB_ (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Joni-Mitchell-Biography/8CD1873BEC39C3B548256A42004CDCBB) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:16:27 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and religion Benedicte wrote: Is there anything we know about JM and religion? I was surprised when I heard The Sire of Sorrow / Job's Sad Song and God must be a Boogie Man (which I don't understand), because I hadn't noticed any religious references in anything else she'd written. Hi Benedicte, Joni's song LOVE (Corinthians 11:13) from her Wild Things Run Fast album is in her own words, "... an adaptation of Corinthians 11:13, which is a really fine bit of witting on what love is and isn't. I removed some archaic images - like "tho I give my body to be burned" - things and customs not pertaining to this culture." So she can appreciate some aspects of Christianity which leads me to believe she doesn't have a problem with Christianity in general. I think she was raised in the Anglican branch, but I could be wrong. Her lyrics In Rainy Night House include: I am from the Sunday school I sing soprano in the upstairs choir You are a holy man ON the FM radio I sat up all the night and watched thee To see, who in the world you might be I don't know if this is a reference to herself, but maybe at some point in her life she sang in a church choir. I haven't a clue as to who the holy man is but sounds like she had a crush on him if not in real life, in her imagination. Love, Laura NPIMH: LOVE (Corinthians 11:13) Although I speak in tongues Of men and angels I'm just sounding brass And tinkling cymbals without love Love suffers long Love is kind! Enduring all things Love has no evil in mind If I had the gift of prophecy And all the knowledge And the faith to move the mountains Even if I understood all of the mysteries If I didn't have love I'd be nothing Love never looks for love Love's not puffed up Or envious Or touchy Because it rejoices in the truth Not in iniquity Love sees like a child sees As a child I spoke as a child I thought and I understood as a child But when I became a woman I put away childish things And began to see through a glass darkly Where as a child I saw it face to face Now I only know it in part Fractions in me Of faith and hope and love And of these great three Love's the greatest beauty Love Love Love ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:30:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Peep Richman Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2006 #391 It's a dreary Sunday here in good old New Jersey, but a great day to read, listen to Joni (for me, anyhow), read some important articles in the NYTimes and continue reading "The Glass Castle" by Jeannette Walls....an excellent and truly moving book...so honest. Wanted to thank J. Kendel Johnson ( it's been a long time since I've been active on the Digest; I didn't recognize your name) for his thought provoking writing. I've been thinking about Joni....she has different avenues of self-expression, as we all know, love and respect. Because of her amazing multi-talents, I'm wondering whether Joni allows the flow of her emotions and analysis of some political events and religious thinking, amoung other things, to flow from her incredible brain without very much editing at all. She could be expressing how she feels about a certain subject at one point in time and realizes through her personal growth and continues enlightenment, she may, in fact, see life completely differently at some future time. It's the fact that she shares with us all her intimate thinking without fear of anything that I have grown to respect and love about her. I have always thought that Joni really doesn't care at all, or very little, about how her devoted fans, and the general public perceive her work. I'd imagine she's completely fed up with the politics of recording companies and mass marketing and is now experiencing her world....her life...without the motivation to share herself with as much regularity as she once did. Yet I miss her so very much. Hope everyone is doing well, living life to the fullest and treasuring each day. Love from Bo - --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1"/min. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:57:15 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: STAS Richard> You know, I must be dated! I still love that cover.< Dated r us... nice memories richard... lama sent me that album cover a couple of years ago, I loooovvvveee it! Still need to frame it tho ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 03:45:51 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: Real or fake? SCANS! To whom it may interest, here are the actual scans I asked the seller to make. I wish I had scans of the album cover to compare. http://www.yousendit.com/download/qBVdioZTz4M%3D Cheers, Pat - -- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:47:42 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" Subject: Re: Joni and God...? As with life itself, it seems like she has a love/hate relationship with God. In various interviews, she's said that after the initial commercial success, she retreated to the cabin in British Columbia and spent a year (at least) without electricity. She read "everything I could get my hands on" about life, God, psychology, and philosophy. Karen O'Brien's book "Joni Mitchell: Shadows and Light the Definitive Biography" is a good introduction. Anyway, on The Hissing Of Summer Lawns's "Don't Interrupt The Sorrow", she was saying, >Truth goes up in vapors >steeples lean >Winds of change >patriarchs snug in your bible belt dreams >God goes up the chimney like childhood Santa Claus In my opinion, Joni doesn't like "organized religion" (as opposed to God) at all. All the best, Jim Benedicte Nielsen wrote: > Is there anything we know about JM and religion? I was surprised when I heard The Sire of Sorrow / Job's Sad Song and God must be a Boogie Man (which I don't understand), because I hadn't noticed any religious references in anything else she'd written. I guess that and too much big band is where I get a bit turned off, to be honest. Not over the fact that she would be religious, it's the singing about it.> ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 2006 20:31:14 +0100 From: Benedicte Nielsen Subject: Re: Joni and religion On Oct 22 2006, LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: >Hi Benedicte, > > Joni's song LOVE (Corinthians 11:13) from her Wild Things Run Fast > album is in her own words, "... an adaptation of Corinthians 11:13, which > is a really fine bit of witting on what love is and isn't. I removed some > archaic images - like "tho I give my body to be burned" - things and > customs not pertaining to this culture." > > So she can appreciate some aspects of Christianity which leads me to > believe she doesn't have a problem with Christianity in general. I think > she was raised in the Anglican branch, but I could be wrong. > > Her lyrics In Rainy Night House include: > >I am from the Sunday school >I sing soprano in the upstairs choir >You are a holy man >ON the FM radio >I sat up all the night and watched thee >To see, who in the world you might be > > I don't know if this is a reference to herself, but maybe at some point > in her life she sang in a church choir. I haven't a clue as to who the > holy man is but sounds like she had a crush on him if not in real life, > in her imagination. > >Love, >Laura > Hi, thanks for your message! Oh yes, actually I am aware of LOVE, I love the way she sings it; and if there is anything about the New Testament that I can relate to it's that one passage. I fail to fully understand the bit about seeing as a child though. Saw "A Scanner Darkly" recently, and realisd the title alludes to this passage as well. I'd hope your interpretation of how she sees Christianity is right - I think it is. After I sent the email I realised that people can indeed sing about religion without being cheasy - Nick Cave is full of references to Christianity. Benedicte ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 2006 20:42:50 +0100 From: Benedicte Nielsen Subject: Re: Joni and God...? On Oct 22 2006, Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama wrote: > As with life itself, it seems like she has a love/hate relationship with > God. In various interviews, she's said that after the initial commercial > success, she retreated to the cabin in British Columbia and spent a year > (at least) without electricity. She read "everything I could get my hands > on" about life, God, psychology, and philosophy. Karen O'Brien's book > "Joni Mitchell: Shadows and Light the Definitive Biography" is a good > introduction. > >Anyway, on The Hissing Of Summer Lawns's "Don't Interrupt The Sorrow", she >was saying, >>Truth goes up in vapors >>steeples lean >>Winds of change >>patriarchs snug in your bible belt dreams >>God goes up the chimney like childhood Santa Claus > > In my opinion, Joni doesn't like "organized religion" (as opposed to God) > at all. > >All the best, >Jim > Hey thanks! I was getting a little concerned that there may be some religious awakening that I hadn't heard of. Not that I mind anyone, inlcuding JM, to be religious, but sometimes when people's career takes a turn toward the religious it cna turn out pretty bad! Come to think of it, although it's not entirely related, there are plenty of references to her growing up in religious environment... "in the church they light the candles..." "I went to every wedding in that little town...". I guess for Canadian standards, that's pretty normal. Now that we are talking religion: would you be a lama, or what...? Best, Bene ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:54:13 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and religion In a message dated 10/22/2006 2:31:41 P.M. Central Standard Time, bn208@cam.ac.uk writes: I fail to fully understand the bit about seeing as a child though. Hi Benedicte, The lyrics go: "Love sees like a child sees As a child I spoke as a child-- I thought and I understood as a child-- But when I became a woman-- I put away childish things And began to see through a glass darkly Where, as a child, I saw it face to face Now, I only know it in part Fractions in me Of faith and hope and love" I understand these lyrics to mean that with becoming a woman, she lost some of her ability to know love more fully. She can't completely know faith, hope, and love like she could as a child. This reminds me of William Blake's reference to innocence, experience, and higher innocence. The woman in Joni's song seems to be in a similar situation as Blake's "experience" stage. She is only able to see "through a glass darkly." She is out of touch with the deeper aspects of her soul. She is in a place where life is complicated by the human mind and love cannot be fully enjoyed. She is unable to know love as with the innocence of a child who can let go and see love clearly. It is a new testament scripture thing to acknowledge the beauty in the innocence of children like this. Children are said to be the greatest in the kingdom of God: "At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." (from Matthew 18) The kingdom of heaven is where Love reigns. Like you, I really love the way Joni sings the song. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:54:30 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Real or fake? SCANS! Here are 600dpi scans of the front cover of STAS: http://download.yousendit.com/5B23F38272426C73 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of P. Henry Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 1:46 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Real or fake? SCANS! To whom it may interest, here are the actual scans I asked the seller to make. I wish I had scans of the album cover to compare. http://www.yousendit.com/download/qBVdioZTz4M%3D Cheers, Pat - -- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 18:17:09 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Joni and religion Yes, but "Love's a repetitious danger" Seriously, I always prefer the KJV for its poetry (I also prefer it to Joni's, though I approve of her reversal of sexist language.) I know that other translations substitute "love" for "charity." Not being a Biblical scholar I'm not sure which is the more accurate translation: 1 Corinthians 13 1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 2006 23:28:09 +0100 From: Benedicte Nielsen Subject: Re: Joni and religion On Oct 22 2006, LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: >Hi Benedicte, > > The lyrics go: > >"Love sees like a child sees > >As a child I spoke as a child-- >I thought and I understood as a child-- >But when I became a woman-- >I put away childish things >And began to see through a glass darkly > >Where, as a child, I saw it face to face >Now, I only know it in part >Fractions in me >Of faith and hope and love" > > > > I understand these lyrics to mean that with becoming a woman, she > lost some of her ability to know love more fully. She can't completely > know faith, hope, and love like she could as a child. > > This reminds me of William Blake's reference to innocence, > experience, and higher innocence. The woman in Joni's song seems to be in > a similar situation as Blake's "experience" stage. She is only able to > see "through a glass darkly." She is out of touch with the deeper aspects > of her soul. She is in a place where life is complicated by the human > mind and love cannot be fully enjoyed. She is unable to know love as with > the innocence of a child who can let go and see love clearly. > > It is a new testament scripture thing to acknowledge the beauty in > the innocence of children like this. Children are said to be the greatest > in the kingdom of God: "At that time the disciples approached Jesus and > said, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He called a child > over, placed it in their midst, and said, "Amen, I say to you, unless you > turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." > (from Matthew 18) The kingdom of heaven is where Love reigns. > > Like you, I really love the way Joni sings the song. > >Love, >Laura > - --------------- Humm, yeah.... I guess my problem with understanding this stems from my perception of children as selfish little bastards, to put it in rough terms. In the same vein, I also suspect that I would have found Jesus a pretty intolerable character, even if I respect the principles of Christianity. He did demand a lot...! But I guess there is another side of it all that is true too. Enough from me, it's close to midnight here, so have a good Sunday! Best Benedicte ------------------------------ Date: 22 Oct 2006 23:44:09 +0100 From: Benedicte Nielsen Subject: RE: Joni and religion On Oct 22 2006, Richard Flynn wrote: >Yes, but > >"Love's a repetitious danger" > - ----------------- Ah! tell us about it...! - ----------------- > >Seriously, I always prefer the KJV for its poetry (I also prefer it to >Joni's, though I approve of her reversal of sexist language.) I know that >other translations substitute "love" for "charity." Not being a Biblical >scholar I'm not sure which is the more accurate translation: - ---------------------- I looked it up, charity translates Latin caritas which renders Greek agape which designates Christian love. An on-line etymological dictionary suggests caritas is deployed to avoid the sexual connotation of amor. So, depending on where you draw the line....! Seems to me that Jesus drew it differently from many Christians nowadays. It makes sense not to translate to 'charity', because "And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." seems to say that you can be charitable, but if you are not loving, then you are lost. Joni's version says 'love does not look for love' and King James 'seeketh not her own', not exactly the same thing, I think maybe I prefer the Joni-version. I like this text, it's good for sorting out emotions...! Best Benedicte ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 19:11:14 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and religion In a message dated 10/22/2006 5:28:23 P.M. Central Standard Time, bn208@cam.ac.uk writes: I guess my problem with understanding this stems from my perception of children as selfish little bastards, Oh yeah, mine definitely are. They have so little control of things in their environment otherwise. You know.... "Bless the beasts and the children For in this world they have no voice They have no choice" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 19:14:02 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and religion In a message dated 10/22/2006 5:44:28 P.M. Central Standard Time, bn208@cam.ac.uk writes: I looked it up, charity translates Latin caritas ubi caritas et amor ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:32:55 -0700 (PDT) From: J Kendel Johnson Subject: Re: Joni and religion Some of the other afficianados can confirm or correct this, but I believe the "holy man" is widely regarded to be Leonard Cohen. LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: Benedicte wrote: Her lyrics In Rainy Night House include: I am from the Sunday school I sing soprano in the upstairs choir You are a holy man ON the FM radio I sat up all the night and watched thee To see, who in the world you might be I don't know if this is a reference to herself, but maybe at some point in her life she sang in a church choir. I haven't a clue as to who the holy man is ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:20:00 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Joni and religion wow, richard, thanks for this. it really reads well with charity instead of love. in english, i'd define charity as a part of love, a tenderness and an emotional generosity (and the third verse seems to point out the difference between financial charity and genuine charity of spirit). it's really food for thought to see this writing with the focus on charity. also, regarding 'putting away childish things', it's worth mentioning that todd rundgren used the same concept for the first verse of a song (i adore) called 'real man': *** when i was a child, i thought as a child, i spoke as a child i didn't know better better ah, but now i'm a man, i look like a man, i'm old as a man and i should know better better... *** patrick np - me'shell ndgeocello, trust (from 'cookie: the anthropological mixtape') - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Richard Flynn Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 6:17 PM To: LCStanley7@aol.com; bn208@cam.ac.uk Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Joni and religion Yes, but "Love's a repetitious danger" Seriously, I always prefer the KJV for its poetry (I also prefer it to Joni's, though I approve of her reversal of sexist language.) I know that other translations substitute "love" for "charity." Not being a Biblical scholar I'm not sure which is the more accurate translation: 1 Corinthians 13 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:34:59 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: Real or fake? SCANS! Thanks Richard! BTW, by seeing them both up close I am now even more convinced that they are both from Joni herself. Best, Pat - -- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - -- - ------------------------------------------------- > Here are 600dpi scans of the front cover of STAS: > > http://download.yousendit.com/5B23F38272426C73 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of P. > Henry > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 1:46 PM > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: RE: Real or fake? SCANS! > > To whom it may interest, here are the actual scans I asked the seller to > make. I wish I had scans of the album cover to compare. > > http://www.yousendit.com/download/qBVdioZTz4M%3D > > Cheers, > > Pat > > -- > "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." > http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ > -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:30:02 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" Subject: STAS I've never seen a definitive answer but to me, there are 2 reasons: 1. The spine of the LP says "Joni Mitchell" but the title doesn't appear. 2. Almost every LP cover was printed incorrectly, with many of the seagulls cropped on the right. It was impossible to read the title of the album becuase it wasn't all there. On the other hand, "JONI MITCHELL" was spelled out in bold and all capital letters. Maybe the company wanted "JM" while the artist, who had complete artistic control, was overriden by the art department. Jim L. Marianne asked, >How did it go that the album >Song to a Seagull >is also called "Joni MItchell." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:34:07 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: Real or fake? SCANS! To whom it may interest, sorry to those naysayers but I gotta say it. (Les) I'm convinced. this IS Joni's first (or maybe second or third) draft, there's no doubt in my mind and I predict someday it will sell/be valued at thousands! Just look at the scans! Cheers, Pat - -- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 22:18:25 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Gratitude What a GIFT the Joni Mitchell Complete, Guitar Songbook Edition, is! Thank you Joni!!!! Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:15:52 -0400 From: Victor Johnson Subject: Re: Real or fake? The auction will be over in about 35 minutes... Victor NP: Cardinals vs. Detroit On Oct 22, 2006, at 9:34 PM, P. Henry wrote: > To whom it may interest, sorry to those naysayers but I gotta say it. > (Les) I'm convinced. this IS Joni's first (or maybe second or third) > draft, there's no doubt in my mind and I predict someday it will > sell/be > valued at thousands! Just look at the scans! > > Cheers, > > Pat > > -- > "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." > http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ > -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:56:49 -0700 From: "gene" Subject: Re: Real or fake? YIKES!!!!!! 257.92. wish joni could verify this as her own----i guess this is why life is just full of mystery and you gotta have faith. later gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor Johnson" To: "list List" Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 8:15 PM Subject: Re: Real or fake? > The auction will be over in about 35 minutes... > > > Victor > > NP: Cardinals vs. Detroit > > > > > > On Oct 22, 2006, at 9:34 PM, P. Henry wrote: > >> To whom it may interest, sorry to those naysayers but I gotta say it. >> (Les) I'm convinced. this IS Joni's first (or maybe second or third) >> draft, there's no doubt in my mind and I predict someday it will sell/be >> valued at thousands! Just look at the scans! >> >> Cheers, >> >> Pat >> >> -- >> "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." >> http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ >> -- > > !DSPAM:144,453c39a715161060076066! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 00:07:59 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Real or fake? It sold for US $257.52 Bought by smebd - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Victor Johnson Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 11:16 PM To: list List Subject: Re: Real or fake? The auction will be over in about 35 minutes... Victor NP: Cardinals vs. Detroit On Oct 22, 2006, at 9:34 PM, P. Henry wrote: > To whom it may interest, sorry to those naysayers but I gotta say it. > (Les) I'm convinced. this IS Joni's first (or maybe second or third) > draft, there's no doubt in my mind and I predict someday it will > sell/be > valued at thousands! Just look at the scans! > > Cheers, > > Pat > > -- > "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." > http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ > -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:57:40 -0400 From: Doug Subject: Re: Real or fake? SCANS! $257.52 Though I'm no Art Expert, I'm guessing that this is a JM original. I see similarities in some small details, but not in more obvious parts. Why would someone copy it anyway, when they already had the original cover? Except to make a large poster sized version, which this is not. Anyone taking bets? Fess-up time. Who's got it? Doug P. Henry wrote: > To whom it may interest, sorry to those naysayers but I gotta say it. > (Les) I'm convinced. this IS Joni's first (or maybe second or third) > draft, there's no doubt in my mind and I predict someday it will sell/be > valued at thousands! Just look at the scans! > > Cheers, > > Pat > > -- > "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." > http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ > -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 22:18:49 -0700 From: Subject: Joni and God There are articles and interviews spread out over the years where Joni discusses her childhood and adult religious beliefs. As a child she did sing in the choir at, I recall, a Presbyterian church. In articles from about 10-15 years ago, I recall her saying her spirtuality was influenced by a mix of Christian, Buddhist and Native American beliefs. Recently I heard she calls herself a Buddhist. Yet she also still celebrates Christmas. So I think you can say she does have spiritual beliefs but does not follow any one established religion or dogma. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 22:12:57 -0700 From: Subject: Real or Fake - scans Hmmm, Thanks for the scans (I really didn't want to have to dig out my original vinyls (yes I have two) from the bottom of a big chest and yes, I also have it on tape and 2 CDs, too -) My impression is that the eBay version is much better when observed up close and while there are similarities in the ink illustrations and age, it still feels like it is a copy or was maybe traced and then painted and inked over, perhaps for a commercial art or design class exercise. In Joni's original the seagulls also spell out "Song to a Seagull" but the copy does not. Betting on the outside odds, it is always possible that Joni painted this copy *after* the original, perhaps at the request of a friend. Once I was asked to give away a painting that was exhibited at school to one of the counselors. I did not want to give it up or sell it but to be one the good side of the counselor, I tried to replicate it. The copy I painted did not turn out nearly as good as the original. In college the same thing happened - someone wanted me to give them a painting and instead I painted another copy to give away. The copy did not equal the original. That to me argues against Joni creating the eBay version as a rough study before producing the final product. Sometimes things are just better the first time and are meant to be a "one-off." Kakki ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #302 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)