From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #300 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, October 21 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 300 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Real or fake? ["P. Henry" ] RE: Real or fake? ["P. Henry" ] Re: Duncan Shiek, "Court and Spark" [Bob Muller ] RE: Real or fake? ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: Real or fake? ["mia _" ] Re: Real or fake? [] Re: Real or fake? [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Real or fake? [Catherine McKay ] Nostalgia was [RE: Real or fake?] ["Richard Flynn" ] RE: Real or fake? ["P. Henry" ] Without a Trace (with Joni content) ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: Real or fake? ["P. Henry" ] Re: Real or fake? ["P. Henry" ] Ugly Betty [Nuriel Tobias ] RE: Real or fake? ["P. Henry" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 20:39:49 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: Real or fake? Richard wrote: "I compared the printed lettering and the art on the album cover (remember those?) to the picture on ebay, and I am at least 95% certain that it's a fake." Why? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 20:44:24 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: Real or fake? Kakki wrote: "FAKE. Fakety, fake, fake fake!" mmm... yeah... I guess I just want to believe. :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 04:10:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: Duncan Shiek, "Court and Spark" I was going to say "How dare you assume that I know the answer to that?" but as it turns out I do. Yes, he did record it for the "A Case Of Joni" CD that Reprise never released. Happy Friday guys! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:42:17 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Real or fake? Because even for a "study" toward the album cover, the artist doesn't come close to demonstrating Joni's artistic competency. What's more, the block printing of "JONI MITCHELL" doesn't resemble the block printing on the album cover very closely. The seagulls also look off. The list does not permit attachments. If it did, I'd submit comparative scans and let everyone judge for themselves. Richard - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of P. Henry Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 6:40 AM To: rflynn@frontiernet.net Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: RE: Real or fake? Richard wrote: "I compared the printed lettering and the art on the album cover (remember those?) to the picture on ebay, and I am at least 95% certain that it's a fake." Why? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:36:53 -0500 From: "mia _" Subject: Re: Real or fake? <> Speaking of real and fake and the Antique Roadshow (or the Antique Freakshow as labeled by Mad Magazine- lol), I once saw an item on the Antique Roadshow that turned out to be fake. But the fascinating thing of it was that the appraisers stated that the forgery was worth far more than the original!! I love the album cover of STAS primarily because it is so dated. Those swirly colorful patterns remind me of when I took flute lessons as a child, and the band director would hand out folders to store our sheet music in. The artwork on the folders would typically show an instrument like a sax or clarinet or something with swirling colored patterns coming out of the instrument's soundhole. Very similar to the STAS cover art. I cherished my sheet music, and found the folders both enchanting and hypnotic. Mia _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:06:36 -0700 From: Subject: Re: Real or fake? Oh Pat, I'm sorry! I did not mean to imply it was a bad rendering or a joke. It truly reminded me of stuff I used to paint and draw when I was a young teen. I got STAS around the time it first was released and went nuts over the cover art. Talked my parents into buying me one of those fancy pen and ink sets so that I could create similar looking work. I painted the top of my desk with similar scenes and then drew almost the same sailing ship with my new ink pen. On another kiind of related note, I was reading an article the other day about how creative persons' art changes as they age. Part of art education training is learning how to identify certain characteristics of painting done by children, teenagers, adults, etc. A trained eye can often estimate the age of the artist. The article mainly discussed how researchers have found that creative artists who develop dementia in later years paint and draw much more precisely than when they were younger. However, they also found that the dementia painters tend to, at the same time, lose the ability to convey emotion in their work. It is the effects of shrinkage in the pre-frontal lobe - takes one part away but enhances another part. It was interesting to me because my father was a painter who suffered from dementia and his paintings did become much more detailed and precise in his later years but were more flat emotionally. I just thought one got better as they got older ;-) Well, to some extent. Kakki > Kakki wrote: > > "FAKE. Fakety, fake, fake fake!" > > mmm... yeah... I guess I just want to believe. :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:31:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Real or fake? mia wrote: "I love the album cover of STAS primarily because it is so dated." You took the "i love the album cover of STAS primarily because it is so dated" out of my mouth. Very well said, mia. It reminds me of therapy paintings that one may draw during a dark period, kind of self healing work done during one's winter. STAS's art director, sorry, can't remember his name, died not long ago, and with this one suddenly showing up, hmmm... During my life i bought 8 copies of STAS on vinyl and at least 5 on CD for both sad and funny reasons. For years now it seems that most pop artists launch their careers with some really silly, stupid, flat and commercial debuts, and then years later, you hear that they "have grown", "musicaly developed", "discovered themselves", "100% personal", "more personal than ever", and that they "think fondly of their debut" when "they were too young to take themselves seriously". Joni, as you know, is not one of those geeks. Someone posted a couple of days ago and said that STAS is the more naive Joni. Sorry, i don't remember who you are, but - DO YOU MIND?! :) Hugs and great weekened everyone, Nuri - --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1"/min. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:44:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Real or fake? - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > mia wrote: > "I love the album cover of STAS primarily because it > is so dated." > > You took the "i love the album cover of STAS > primarily because it is so dated" out of my mouth. > Very well said, mia. It reminds me of therapy > paintings that one may draw during a dark period, > kind of self healing work done during one's winter. It reminds me of the kind of drawings a lot of young girls were doing at that time. My sistera and I used to draw stuff like that. That was back in the days when I sort of knew how to draw. Or we would embroider these elaborate patterns, including flowers, ducks, ferns & so on on our jeans. I guess Joni did a better job of it though! Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 18:57:46 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: Nostalgia was [RE: Real or fake?] You know, I must be dated! I still love that cover. I can vividly remember going down to the "Soul Shack" at 12th & G in DC specifically to buy the record (I was 13 at the time and had gotten my D-28 in January as a combination birthday/Christmas gift from my parents). There used to be little classified ads in the back of _Sing Out_ magazine advertising lead sheets for Joni Mitchell songs from Gandalf Music. (I sent away for some lead sheets, but they never arrived.) I had heard Ian & Sylvia and Tom Rush and Buffy Sainte-Marie and Judy Collins's versions of Joni's songs. I don't remember how I heard the album was coming out, but I was there to buy it on the day of its release. After listening to it countless times, I decided to figure out some songs--I think I began with "Cactus Tree"--and I realized I had to detune my guitar, so I taught myself open D and open G, playing, I'm sure, approximations of her arrangements--it was all by ear. In a very short time, some older friends started trotting me out at local coffee houses. "Here's this young boy who plays Joni Mitchell songs." I remember one girl (she was 18 and I was 14) who took me to play at DC's Iguana Coffee House off Thomas Circle. Under her and her boyfriend's wing I also attended a Pete Seeger fundraiser for the DC (Dow Chemical) 9--also in a church--how progressive and friendly churches were to me in my youth! Anyway, when I look at the cover of STAS, I experience Proustian epiphanies--I can never look at it with even an ounce of irony. Perhaps it's arrested development, but Joni Mitchell has been my personal soundtrack since I was a child. I've been doing my own serious writing for most of today and guess I was on a roll when I decided to post here--forgive the length. Richard -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Catherine McKay Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 5:45 PM To: Nuriel Tobias; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Real or fake? - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > mia wrote: > "I love the album cover of STAS primarily because it > is so dated." > > You took the "i love the album cover of STAS > primarily because it is so dated" out of my mouth. > Very well said, mia. It reminds me of therapy > paintings that one may draw during a dark period, > kind of self healing work done during one's winter. It reminds me of the kind of drawings a lot of young girls were doing at that time. My sistera and I used to draw stuff like that. That was back in the days when I sort of knew how to draw. Or we would embroider these elaborate patterns, including flowers, ducks, ferns & so on on our jeans. I guess Joni did a better job of it though! Catherine Toronto - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:41:03 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: Real or fake? Jim wrote: "I think it's a homage, not the real thing. 1. The previous owner put it into a house sale and didn't explain or document it for the new seller. If it was genuine, they would have related a story, at least. 2. Joni wouldn't have done all of that pen and ink stuff twice without changing it drastically. I don't think she *could* have done it twice, for love or money. She just wasn't into copying, ever." Hi Jim, I see your reasoning... why in the world would she copy it over... and then I thought about something else you said... the part about: "The previous owner put it into a house sale and didn't explain or document it for the new seller. If it was genuine, they would have related a story, at least." Well, on the face of it that's pretty easy. If this were something the owner treasured as private and... who knows when they're going to die... instead of "The previous owner put it into a house sale" perhaps they died? It DOES say it's an estate sale... and it seems like maybe the sellers, the couple were probably, one of them anyway, a sibling of the deceased owner... but, beyond that, what if it were something they grabbed when Joni wasn't looking or she accidentally left behind? Wouldn't she have started over with the same 'gypsy woman' motif? Too many possibilities... Had I been a bit more foresighted at 17 back when I had all those items I mentioned before I would've cherished them much more than I did. I wouldn't have been so foolish as to leave them (along with the pre-Elliot Roberts publicity pics of Chuck and Joni together and of Joni alone and that one lone polaroid shot of the young Joni, Chuck and myself hanging out in the dressing room) in my footlocker which was stolen when I took leave stateside while in the service. At any rate I can appreciate how this could have happened to end up on ebay. Call me naive, call me hopeful, call me stupid if you like but I have a feeling... Best Regards, Pat ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:53:30 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: Real or fake? Richard, Rough copy or rough draft, who knows? It's been a long time since I've seen it happen but we used to park our attachments here: http://launch.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/jonimitchell/photos Ya gotta sign up but what the hey? Thanks, Pat - -- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - -- - ------------------ > Because even for a "study" toward the album cover, the artist doesn't come > close to demonstrating Joni's artistic competency. What's more, the block > printing of "JONI MITCHELL" doesn't resemble the block printing on the > album > cover very closely. The seagulls also look off. The list does not permit > attachments. If it did, I'd submit comparative scans and let everyone > judge > for themselves. > > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of P. > Henry > Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 6:40 AM > To: rflynn@frontiernet.net > Cc: joni@smoe.org > Subject: RE: Real or fake? > > Richard wrote: > "I compared the printed lettering and the art on the album cover (remember > those?) to the picture on ebay, and I am at least 95% certain that it's a > fake." > > Why? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 21:04:00 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: Without a Trace (with Joni content) I was half-listening to a rerun of "Without a Trace" coming from the other room while I worked in this one, half keeping track of the plot about some missing pregnant teen--and what should make my ears perk up? "Little Green" Normally I hate the way Jerry Bruckheimer puts ding dang rock videos into every ding dang middlebrow piece of crap he produces, but this was Joni! Hope she got some good royalty pennies from that one. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:16:17 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Real or fake? Kakki, No problem, mi amiga. I guess that's my downfall. I have problems doing a decent job on the guy in hangman. LoL!!! I can see how an artistic type could get really excited over that cover. It sure was a huge impact on me, seeing as how I'd just seen her a few months before... The part that I liked? It was the little fish-eye shot of our lady on the back, bundled against the city cold, guitar-in-tow just as I'd seen her smetimes coming over from the Harrington hotel across the street right outside the Cellar... Cheers, Pat - -- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - -- - --------------------- > Oh Pat, I'm sorry! I did not mean to imply it was a bad rendering or a > joke. It truly reminded me of stuff I used to paint and draw when I was a > young teen. I got STAS around the time it first was released and went > nuts > over the cover art. Talked my parents into buying me one of those fancy > pen > and ink sets so that I could create similar looking work. I painted the > top > of my desk with similar scenes and then drew almost the same sailing ship > with my new ink pen. On another kiind of related note, I was reading an > article the other day about how creative persons' art changes as they age. > Part of art education training is learning how to identify certain > characteristics of painting done by children, teenagers, adults, etc. A > trained eye can often estimate the age of the artist. The article mainly > discussed how researchers have found that creative artists who develop > dementia in later years paint and draw much more precisely than when they > were younger. However, they also found that the dementia painters tend > to, > at the same time, lose the ability to convey emotion in their work. It is > the effects of shrinkage in the pre-frontal lobe - takes one part away but > enhances another part. It was interesting to me because my father was a > painter who suffered from dementia and his paintings did become much more > detailed and precise in his later years but were more flat emotionally. I > just thought one got better as they got older ;-) Well, to some extent. > > Kakki > >> Kakki wrote: >> >> "FAKE. Fakety, fake, fake fake!" >> >> mmm... yeah... I guess I just want to believe. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:31:42 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Real or fake? Lori, Not that big a clue if they don't know what they have, yes? Cheers, Pat - -- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - -- - -------------------- Lori writes: "I agree with you, Les. The biggest clue is the starting bid of $4.99." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:41:12 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: Real or fake? Well put, Jamie. Further, I could see an artistic type copying the graphics but not to include the 'JONI MITCHELL' worked into the lines... Cheers, Pat - -- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - -- - ---------- Jamie Z wrote: "That may be so Hell but if you look at the STAS album cover it is the 'same' signature as the one in the photograph... Either it's an alternative 1st take... or it's a very good copy... (evn the paper has been aged...)" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 22:22:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Ugly Betty Catherine wrote: "A really appealing and sweet character and so completely different from the usual skinny blonde model types - a real person." But darling the series is about how that appealing and sweet girl is turning into a skinny blonde model. We had the Israeli version of the original South American show a couple of years ago, "Ugly Esther" in our case, it was a huge success and my favorite character was the skinny blonde girl. Honest! I've had so many female friends you'd think i'm a pimp or something and the skinny blonde ones are just as sweet and real. They have to be because for some reason the whole world is against them:) Nuri - --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:43:53 +1000 (ChST) From: "P. Henry" Subject: RE: Real or fake? (My correspondence with the seller, so far...) Hi Jane, I am a member of the Joni Mitchell group where you are undoubtedly getting most of your questions about this item from It's getting a lot of airplay on our mailing list. You just might strike it rich with this one. Imagine my surprise when I was looking over the details on your auction page and noticed that, although you give your location as Bakersfield, your zip code, or the person who actually has the print, is mine also, right here in Tamuning, Guam! How about that? So... I was wondering if it would be possible somehow to see it or even scan it into a jpeg firsthand. Putting extra pics up was a good move but it might be worth your while to scan it yourself and post it full size on your auction as there is a raging discussion going on right now and, as I'm sure you've noticed, you are getting a LOT of traffic on it. It's intriguing for us Joni fans as it could just be a copy by someone or it might just be an original first-draft one-of-a-kind must-have history piece. Cheers, Pat - --------------- Thanks so very much for the info Pat but I have no clue how to scan it to the computer like that or I would. I had no clue this would make such a fuss. I have no way of telling if it's an original of hers or a good copy by a fan???? I will try to do the scan thing but I dont think it will fit on my scanner, can that hurt it? Jane - --------------- Thanks for responding Jane, I appreciate it. It sounds like it will be some hassle for you but the best would be if you could scan it (no it shouldn't hurt it if you're gentle) in sections like you did the pics and then pay for 'supersize' images on your setup. Heck, you've already sold it for $20 and I bet there will be a showdown at the end. It would be worth the trouble in dollars and cents, I'm sure, since it already is. I have sold a few things myself and, IMO, those supersize scans could definitely mean money in your pocket. BTW, I am one of those who think this just might be the real deal. Again, thanks for writing me back. Regards, Pat ps - What about that zip code? Are you really here on Guam? - -- "The last time I saw Joni was Detroit in '68..." http://www.angelfire.com/pq2/phenryboland/ - -- ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #300 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)