From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #230 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, August 13 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 230 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Non-Dual Joni [Patti Witten ] "All I Want" is more Joni covers! ["Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" ] Re: Non-Dual Joni [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: daydreams and notches [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Non-Dual Joni ["S.A. Feite" ] Re: Non-Dual Joni ["S.A. Feite" ] Jonifest 2007 sign ups are READY to go!! [AsharaJM@aol.com] notches, liberation and dolls sjc [mags h ] Re: Non-Dual Joni ["Michael O'Malley" ] Re: "Your notches, liberation doll" - Don't Interrupt the Sorrow ["Lori F] Re: "Your notches, liberation doll" - Don't Interrupt the Sorrow [Cather] joni mention [janine sherman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 07:42:24 -0400 From: Patti Witten Subject: Re: Non-Dual Joni Steve wrote: > I was just doing some research for a one hour radio special I did > with radical Zen priest Kobutsu Malone here in Maine. Kobutsu, in > addition to being trained as a traditional Zen priest, was also a > line-holder from radical beat generation, 60's generation guru, > Chogyam Trungpa's lineage. I enjoyed your post very much. It's so like La Joan to rouse a Buddhist master from his final sleep in order to tell him why he was important to her (it's always all about Joni, eh?). But also privately amusing to me because, ahem, it's always all about *me.* In 1981 I spent 6 amazing weeks at Naropa Institute (Now Naropa University) in Boulder, CO. Trungpa Rinpoche founded Naropa and was in residence. I wasn't really interested in Zen or meditation back then. I was more interested in booze, men and poetry. But so were some of the teachers, like Alan Ginsberg! Anyway, I only saw Rinpoche at receptions and I didn't take any classes in in the Zen curriculum. Instead I was taking master classes in guitar and flute with Ralph Towner and Paul McCandless, of Oregon. The band held summer-long workshops at Naropa for many years. I was of course already a Joni devotee. These were my early 20s, years of risk and exploration. Only now, in my late 40s (just a few months short of 50) do I crave refuge. I'm not name-dropping for sake of ego or trying to win fans or promote my music here. But I do want to say how significant and elemental these connections are to me. Connections to music and art, struggle and reconciliation. Thanks, Steve, for the memories :) Patti - -- http://pattiwitten.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:21:06 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu, Lama" Subject: "All I Want" is more Joni covers! 1. I think Alanis wrote a song called "All I Want". I think Bob Dylan did too. What up with that? Does every A&R man assign that title as a germ for songwriting? 2. I borrowed John Coltrane's "Giant Steps" from the library this week. Holy Taylor Ham, is this a fine record. Thanks to Margaret and David Lahm and anyone else who has recommended Coltrane through all of The JMDL Years. I think Mags recommended "A Love Supreme", then David recommended "Monk & Coltrane Live at Carnegie Hall". They are all winners although maybe not as good as Boston III. heh heh All the best, Jim L. I don't know who said this, <> then Muller said, >Although college acapella has given us a LOT of Joni covers, this is not one. It's a Toad The Wet Sprocket cover. But thanks for the lead just the same. I definitely can't keep up all by myself.> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 07:05:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: "All I Want" is more Joni covers! > 1. I think Alanis wrote a song called "All I > Want". I think Bob Dylan did > too. What up with that? Well, Alanis sung "All I Really Want", a song written by Glen Ballard, and Dylan did "All I Really Want To Do" (and if I recall he doesn't need anyone to write for him), so you were pretty close, Jim. You're also correct in saying that there are a LOT of "All I Want" songs out there, most of which are NOT Joni covers. Among them: J.D. Souther (who has some history with Joni, no?), The Offspring, Gorcon Gano (Violent Femmes), Alan J. Lerner, Harry Casey (KC & The Sunshine Band), Steve Morse (Kansas), and so on and on. It certainly makes the search for "All I Want" covers a challenge. I wish she had titled all of her songs like those on HOSL...when you google "Shades of Scarlett Conquering" and "In France They Kiss On Main Street" you can pretty much bet that your results will be Joni-related. Then again, there are a couple of "Big Yellow Taxi" recordings, a couple of "Chelsea Morning" tracks, and even a "The Last Time I Saw Richard" that aren't Joni covers. I don't know if I should be happy or sad that I know all of this. Happy Saturday, fellow Joni fans! Bob NP: Ani, "A Spade" (from her newly released 'Reprieve' and up to her always-high standards. Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:24:35 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Non-Dual Joni Steve wrote: Once one is certain about this non-dual state, one could take *refuge* in *anything*. Traditionally it would be the path, the road to enlightenment. But when one resides in the non-dual state, one could take *anything* as the path, even traveling on the open road. After all, "it's all *you*." Hi Steve, Welcome to the list! I enjoyed your post. When I read your post what came to my mind was, "we are hopelessly oppressed cowards, of some duality, of restless multiplicity" from Don Juan's Reckless Daughter. Contemplating these lyrics of Joni's, although she's perhaps speaking about Americans in particular, I wonder if there is any difference between the Visishtadwaita dualism and the Adwaita non-dualism? Perhaps no matter how enlightened we "are", we still "see" with our limitations similar to the way we "see" light as everywhere (non-dual) rather than seeing how it is constantly traveling between two points (dual). Why is there exclusion... separation to conceive of a lack of separation or unity, reality to conceive of illusion? That is a question I've contemplated for most of my life. In order for non-duality experience to be conveyed, noticed, and/or spoken of, duality is conceived of concomitantly. Our little experiencers and communicators seem to work by comparing and contrasting. In order to convey, we paint pictures using lights and darks and shapes and sizes just like our environment. And as we have seemingly evolved, our is syntax has emerged, a picture with an auditory component which is something Joni uses so masterfully. Meaningful prosody - song. Parkinson's patients lose utterance prosody but some still have the comprehension of prosody. Could this possibly be enlightenment for them? You also mentioned a friend saying about Joni that "she clearly had a hard time not over-thinking things." On what scale? Smile. Thanks for the enlightenment. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:46:51 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: daydreams and notches Jamie wrote: "The line that always confuses me is 'It's all a dream she has awake' never made grammatical sense to me but I know what she means, like she's elliding two senses 'she has waken herself' and 'she has awoken the dream' " I read it as "It's all a daydream". That is, it's all a dream she has (while) awake. Now, in re Don't Interrupt the Sorrow - I gave up on trying to make sense of that lyric pretty much right away. Perhaps I was correct to do so. For example, in the liner notes (which contain at least 1 typo and 2 suspicious entries), the author opines: "The whole unfolded like a mystery. It is not my intention to unravel that mystery for anyone but....The poem, "Don't Interrupt the Sorrow" was born around 4 a.m. in a New York loft. Larry Poons seeded it and Bobby Neuwirth was midwife here, but the child, filtered thru Genesis at Jackfish Lake, Saskatchewan, is rebellious and mystical and insists that its conception was immaculate.......I would especially like to thank....Helpful Henry The Housewife's Delight" So there. I'm not so sure the punctuation is necessarily consistent as published (or that the conception was entirely immaculate). For example, might it not have been written (with quotation marks): "In flames" our prophet witches "Be polite" Note that the command "you be polite" does appear later in the lyric, in quotes. Maybe Joni meant ""notch is" and later forgot. Don't ask her...... :-) Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:40:28 -0400 From: "S.A. Feite" Subject: Re: Non-Dual Joni Thanks Patti, and others who responded off list: On Aug 12, 2006, at 7:42 AM, Patti Witten wrote: > Steve wrote: > >> I was just doing some research for a one hour radio special I did >> with radical Zen priest Kobutsu Malone here in Maine. Kobutsu, in >> addition to being trained as a traditional Zen priest, was also a >> line-holder from radical beat generation, 60's generation guru, >> Chogyam Trungpa's lineage. > > I enjoyed your post very much. It's so like La Joan to rouse a > Buddhist > master from his final sleep in order to tell him why he was > important to her > (it's always all about Joni, eh?). Pretty ballsy, huh? > > But also privately amusing to me because, ahem, it's always all > about *me.* Oh well there's that natural projection thang Trungpa often railed on. > > In 1981 I spent 6 amazing weeks at Naropa Institute (Now Naropa > University) > in Boulder, CO. Trungpa Rinpoche founded Naropa and was in > residence. I > wasn't really interested in Zen or meditation back then. I was more > interested in booze, men and poetry. But so were some of the > teachers, like > Alan Ginsberg! Yeah I knew Alan. He always seemed to approach from behind... > Anyway, I only saw Rinpoche at receptions and I didn't take > any classes in in the Zen curriculum. Instead I was taking master > classes in > guitar and flute with Ralph Towner and Paul McCandless, of Oregon. Wow, I love Ralph's 12-string work, he just simply one of the masters of that instrument. > The band > held summer-long workshops at Naropa for many years. I was of > course already > a Joni devotee. These were my early 20s, years of risk and > exploration. Only > now, in my late 40s (just a few months short of 50) do I crave > refuge. I'm > not name-dropping for sake of ego or trying to win fans or promote > my music > here. But I do want to say how significant and elemental these > connections > are to me. Connections to music and art, struggle and reconciliation. Well there are certainly many connections out there to follow. I don't know if Dharmapolooza is still being held in Boulder or not, but it's a great in for the performing musician to hang with the finest (Ken Wilber's best friend, Zen practitioner Stuart Davis used to run the thing). Maybe it went belly up. I always run into different artists and celebs at retreats, which I go on one, one week teaching retreat a year, minimum. I remember one time I was at this outdoor retreat and everyone was deferring to this guy in our group as if he was someone of note, but I'll be damned if I could place him. Turned out to be John Densmore, the *drummer* for the Doors. Hell, if it'd been Robby Kreiger or Ray Manzarek I'd have recognized him right away. But yeah it's a cool scene with incredible outer and inner creativity: Inner Revolution as Thurman calls it. > > Thanks, Steve, for the memories :) Gladly. - -S. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:40:11 -0400 From: "S.A. Feite" Subject: Re: Non-Dual Joni On Aug 12, 2006, at 10:24 AM, LCStanley7@aol.com wrote: > Steve wrote: > > Once one is certain about this non-dual state, one could take > *refuge* in *anything*. Traditionally it would be the path, the road > to enlightenment. But when one resides in the non-dual state, one > could take *anything* as the path, even traveling on the open road. > After all, "it's all *you*." > > Hi Steve, > > Welcome to the list! I enjoyed your post. > > When I read your post what came to my mind was, "we are > hopelessly oppressed cowards, of some duality, of restless > multiplicity" from Don Juan's Reckless Daughter. Nice. Experiential samsara theme. She knows it well and she knows it first hand. > > Contemplating these lyrics of Joni's, although she's perhaps > speaking about Americans in particular, I wonder if there is any > difference between the Visishtadwaita dualism and the Adwaita non- > dualism? Perhaps no matter how enlightened we "are", we still > "see" with our limitations similar to the way we "see" light as > everywhere (non-dual) rather than seeing how it is constantly > traveling between two points (dual). Yes there is a difference. In dualistic styles of enlightenment, one still remains permanently "awake" yet it's mostly an internal awakening, the outer world is still held as separate. > > Why is there exclusion... separation to conceive of a lack of > separation or unity, reality to conceive of illusion? That is a > question I've contemplated for most of my life. In order for non- > duality experience to be conveyed, noticed, and/or spoken of, > duality is conceived of concomitantly. It's just wholeness, you realize it was always there, just obscured. The sun is always shining, even if obscured by clouds. The thing is, true Unity is inclusive of opposites--it's not just "this" and not "that"--and so therefore to describe Unity, paradox is often needed to point out it's fullness and it's "unbounded wholeness". One of the things I shared offlist was that one of the the ways this manifests experientially at first, is that one *sees* (has visionary, open eyed insight) multiplicity and diversity as a vast net, or web, which we are connected to. The clear experience of this is hiddden in the phrase: The nets were overflowing In the Gulf of Mexico They were overflowing in the refuge of the roads And overflow it does. Once awakened at the heart, it literally overflows the heart and out the eyes into the "world". Reminds me of the "Dakini net". > > Our little experiencers and communicators seem to work by > comparing and contrasting. In order to convey, we paint pictures > using lights and darks and shapes and sizes just like our > environment. And as we have seemingly evolved, our is syntax has > emerged, a picture with an auditory component which is something > Joni uses so masterfully. Meaningful prosody - song. Parkinson's > patients lose utterance prosody but some still have the > comprehension of prosody. Could this possibly be enlightenment for > them? Hmmm. It's very interesting to me, because she *also* clearly broaches the topic that is usually referred to by Tibetan yogis as "correcting from the State", in other words, you had the initial experience of your "Original Face" and then you *correct from it*, usually from some sort of mental anal-ysis. She put's it thusly: There was spring along the ditches There were good times in the cities Oh radiant happiness It was all so light and easy Till I started analyzing And I brought on my old ways A thunderhead of judgment was Gathering in my gaze And it made most people nervous They just didn't want to know What I was seeing in the refuge of the roads Wow. So perfectly described. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, the tattoo and the tension back. > > You also mentioned a friend saying about Joni that "she clearly > had a hard time not over-thinking things." On what scale? Smile. I'd have to ask him. Apparently when they met with the Brujo, apparently she just wouldn't stop with the thinking and questions to the point where it was annoying most there, who had already "got it". > > Thanks for the enlightenment. > :-) Thank You, - -Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:15:37 EDT From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Jonifest 2007 sign ups are READY to go!! Thanks to the AMAZING Mr. Les Irvin, the Jonifest webpages are updated and the sign ups are ready to go!! For anyone new to Jonifest, there are pages of information and FAQ's (Frequently asked questions) on the Jonifest pages. For those of you that have been to Jonifest before, the fabulous news is that most prices are over 10% BELOW the prices of 3 YEARS AGO!!! YAY!!! And everyone, please note that there is NO camping or yurt availability that time of year, so once the rooms fill, which I expect it to do very quickly, I will start a waiting list. Once again, there will be a logo contest that will be announced sometime after the 18th, so start your creative juices flowing! If you have any questions about Jonifest, e-mail me privately and I will get back to you after the 18th. So...head over to: _www.jonifest.com_ (http://www.jonifest.com/) and sign up TODAY!!! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:59:29 -0700 (PDT) From: mags h Subject: notches, liberation and dolls sjc could "liberation doll "is a slang for 'feminist' (I buy that one ;-)); and the notches, well, either she aint gettin kicked out of bed for crumbs or else notches represent a score, (and i'm not talking football ;-))) i love this subject, it tickles me to know that it gets such a rise out of the list. shared jack's music today with a dear friend, nice way to begin a rainy saturday in winnipeg. mags, np: there, there. ... none other than delicious moody radiohead, hail to the theif. ;-) nr: the myth of you and me, leah stewart pr: the history of love, nicole krauss - ----- what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? - ----- - --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:13:51 +0000 From: "Michael O'Malley" Subject: Re: Non-Dual Joni Greetings to you Steve and thank you for your perspective on Refuge of the Roads. It took me years to get this song - now I consider it to be one of Joni's finest and most ``spiritual`` songs. The Travelogue version is also very beautiful. Cheers, Michael in Quebec _________________________________________________________________ Play Q6 for your chance to WIN great prizes. http://q6trivia.imagine-live.com/enca/landing ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:07:13 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: "Your notches, liberation doll" - Don't Interrupt the Sorrow Told ya before, and I'll say it again. It's ... "Your notch is liberation, doll." ; ) Lori Santa Rosa, CA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:13:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "Your notches, liberation doll" - Don't Interrupt the Sorrow - --- Lori Fye wrote: > Told ya before, and I'll say it again. It's ... > > "Your notch is liberation, doll." > > ; ) > > Lori > Santa Rosa, CA > I think it's, "Your nachos, Liberace? D'oh!" Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:47:53 -0700 (PDT) From: janine sherman Subject: joni mention Hello all, I recently returned to the home of my youth in Ohio. My father passed away after a tough bout with a brain tumor the last months. It has been a difficult time. I was relaxing at home and found a new magazine of my mom's called Family Circle or something like that. The last page has an article about Sela Ward and her kids. She says her kids make fun of her because her iPod is loaded with "Joni Mitchell" or something like that. Even in the grief of the moment, I had to nod and thank Joni for touching so many of us. All the best, Janine NP: Memories Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #230 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)