From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #167 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, June 11 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 167 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Exciting News!! ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Exciting News!! [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: The "Joni Standard" ["Garret" ] Shawn Colvin's next album - These 4 Walls (SJC) ["Paul Castle" ] Re: Joni Standard [Bobsart48@aol.com] Exciting News! [Nancie Post ] Re: Exciting News!! [RoseMJoy@aol.com] Re: Originality in Music [Monafitz@aol.com] Re: Joni Standard [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] Re: Originality in Music!! ["Martin Giles" ] Re: Exciting News!! ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Joni Standard [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: The Starry Night [Nuriel Tobias ] Exciting News ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: Joni Standard ["Mark Scott" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 23:16:22 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Exciting News!! I wrote: > Occasionally some people even do an original song BETTER than Joni did it in the first place. The word "original" doesn't belong in that sentence. Lori, policing my own English, albeit belatedly ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 02:52:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Exciting News!! Lori Fye wrote: "Occasionally some people even do a song BETTER than Joni did it in the first place." I used to know a girl from my high school who actually thought that her reflection in the mirror looked better than she did and the only thing i can think of that some people do BETTER than Joni did in the first place is divorcing for the third time. Sometimes i wish my name was also Hell so i could freeze over:) Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 09:34:18 +0100 (BST) From: "Garret" Subject: Re: The "Joni Standard" Wow BOb, you put a lot of thought into this one. It has given me a lot to think about over a nice cup of tea. I do enjoy reading these exchanges on list more than the price of oil or politics. I can get that anywhere else, where else can i read about the (perceived) role of gender in modern popular music?? >You see Joni as a standard defining art. Those that do not > aspire > to the above are not aspiring to art. I agree. The question is - is > aspiration > and originality enough ? Some might say yes; I think not. You want to > paint > Van Gogh's - well, that will take a lot of things lining up; talent, > creativity, inspiration, hard knocks, harder work and determination, to > produce that > which is excellent, brilliant or ultimately great. And much more of which > I > have no understanding, I'm sure. Just let me add that execution of the [artistic] idea is critical to sell records, and it is really what appeals to many of us. Billy Corgan once said (something like) that you could come up with the best piece of music, most wonderful lyrics, a piece of musical genius but if it is not well put together then you really don't have anything. He went on to talk about the importance of tune and melody and harmony and all of these other things that i am sure i do not define adequately, so much so that they overlap in my mind. So, yes, ok, art *is* about great ideas and aspiring to originality (ref; Yoko Ono, Cough Piece, hehe;-) and also great execution in my opinion. How often have you walked around the Tate Modern or some other and felt that the idea behind the art was amazing but it really just looks a bit silly when made manifest? HOw often do you see some technically wonderful piece of art in a museum but you feel the idea behind it is a bit thin or, much worse in my opinion, tacked on afterwards? Much popular music gives us great execution without a great idea (good vocals, catchy tune, slick production). It is probably teh case that some artists give us great ideas without great execution (i cannot give examples of this immediately.... i guess this is when you recognise something great but you just don't like it, eh, hi there Aimee Mann and Carly Simon). This is all thoroughly subjective - but of course that is the point, isn't it? The ability to tie great lyrics to innovative music is Joni's talent. It is not the most common talent. This is why she is not a poet in the sense that Gerard Manley Hopkins was a poet. Her words and her music work in concert to create a coherent whole. perhaps these are just my thoughts, but sometimes her words work better in song than when considered 'cold' if you know what i mean. It often relates to the delivery of the vocal in relation to the often unexpected turn of the music. I think this is why we all find so much in Joni's songs - it is not a case of listening and hhaving a straightforward understanding of what she is 'trying to say to us'. IN short Bob, i think i am agreeing with you:-) I have been enjoying this thread/these threads this week so keep it up guys. GARRET NP- Whitney, I Will Always Love You (well, definitely great execution in many many ways and extremely enjoyable and so therefore justifies itself but the idea, mmmmm....) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:22:37 +0100 From: "Paul Castle" Subject: Shawn Colvin's next album - These 4 Walls (SJC) There seems to be a good buzz developing for Shawn Colvin's next album - due out in September. She herself says it's the best record she's ever made and in a recent post on her website forum at www.shawncolvin.com she writes: > We are done! It took a little less than a year to make. > I am so so proud of this work. > It will be called "These 4 Walls". John [Leventhal] has > done a beautiful job. I'm so happy. And relieved. The > artwork is kooky, of course, done by a woman named > Maggie Taylor. [ www.maggietaylor.com ] Apparently the new album also has Patty Griffin, Marc Cohn and Teddy Thompson (son of Richard Thompson) singing on it. She's also just announced more good news for us Brits - the probability of a UK tour in September! Whilst I've seen her several times since, the first time was at the Jazz Cafe in London - with Larry Klein on bass and Stueart Smith (now with The Eagles) on guitar, in 1994. It was absolutely brilliant - a Sony showcase promoting her then new album 'Fat City' which she'd not long recorded in Joni's home studio (The Kiva). On her site there's a really lovely photo of Joni - taken (I like to think) mid-handclap on the recording of 'Object of My Affection' - click 'photos' at www.shawncolvin.com and then choose 'Shawn's Personal Photos - Gallery 1' - and click next twice. All the very best to everyone PaulC ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:43:11 +0200 (CEST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: Kenny Werner digs Joni Hi JoniAmigos ~ Some of you jazz pianist aficionados may know Kenny Werner's excellent work as well as piano accompaniments to Betty Buckley. I don't know if this was discussed or mentioned before here in the list but he composed a song called "One For Joni" which was said to be inspired by "Court and Spark". Anyone heard it yet? Here's the link to that article. It was also mentioned in slightly different wordings in this month's issue of Downbeat. http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=20900 Finally, when asked to rank his CD picks, Werner listed Joni's "Blue" first followed by Vladimir Horowitz's legendary "Horowitz in Moscow", and Thelonious Monk and John Coltrane's collaboration in third place. maybe our NYC Listers can catch Werner in performance and make a report of his Joni-oriented tunes? Joseph in Chapel Hill np: Nicola Hitchcock "Because" P.S. I watched "A Prairie Home Companion" yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed it. Altman at his vintage best, IMHO (althoug nowhere as brilliant as "The Player" and "Thieves Like Us"). En finir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la meilleure protection possible contre les messages non sollicitis http://mail.yahoo.fr Yahoo! Mail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 12:18:55 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Standard Mingus replied "Two Grey Rooms" and "The Beat of Black Wings" to my post "It is true that Joni is not in the perfect position to write a song that is distinctly male in its perspective - though I would love to listen to her best effort in that direction." Yes ! Good examples. Although the lyric to Two Grey Rooms is not completely apparent as being from a male perspective (I realize that we know it is from Joni's explanation of the inspiration source). Another song, capturing a different slice of life from a male perspective, is The Arrangement. When I introduced my father to Joni's LOTC 35 years ago, that was the song he immediately spotted as being relevant to him. I confess its relevance ex post facto to my own life. Any more ? Too bad - too few. See what I meant, even though my memory was weak ? Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 09:34:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Nancie Post Subject: Exciting News! Thanks for the tip Bob! This is Tucker coming out of de-lurkation. I love those 3 unreleased songs and this gal does a great job of singing them! I've ordered it just in time to have it for my cross-country drive from New Mexico to Nova Scotia for the summer! I'll be leaving as soon as the CD arrives! Thanks so much! Tucker Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 13:19:08 EDT From: RoseMJoy@aol.com Subject: Re: Exciting News!! Wonderful news! Thanks Bob for the thumbs up ;~)I listened to most of the tracks...phenominal!!!! Love Come to the Sunshine....Kudos to Henning, Christina and the rest of the band. What's really kewl is that Joni Approves:~) Congrats, I am so excited for you!!! Rosie in NJ NP: Marah, City of Dreams I saw then live at the Pony last night Bob, and wasn't disappointed ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:35:41 EDT From: Monafitz@aol.com Subject: Re: Originality in Music In a message dated 6/9/2006 8:36:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, andeemac2005@comcast.net writes: everything new and different you could do with a Guitar, there is nothing new left to do, can you argue with me on this ????????, Yes, and no. Sure you can argue that there is nothing new under the sun but have you listened to Kaki King? While I would agree that playing up the neck is not new, she certainly has been innovative with it lately. Has Joni, Mayer etc. ever played a tune up the neck the way Kaki King does? It is awesome to see and hear. For those of you in the Northampton Mass, area she will be at the Ironhorse in a few weeks. Check it out. Cheers, Mona Mona A. Fitzgerald, JD Windsor, CT 06095 USA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:43:01 EDT From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Standard In a message dated 6/10/06 12:18:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobsart48 writes: > Any more ? Too bad - too few. See what I meant, even though my memory was > weak ? > > Bobsart > > I guess her first would be "Pirate of Penance" also on "Mingus", "A Chair In The Sky." As for "Two Grey Rooms', she did find the story of the gay Aristocrat watching down on his unrequited lover some 30 years on. There has always been a feeling that she was fantasizing herself finding her daughter secretly and how she would look down and see her pass by "I loved you 30 years ago," because about the time she put the words to "Speechless" killuren would have been coming up on 30 soon. Just letting my head wander before the hurricane hits. Peace Mingus By the way isn't that Anne Coulter a C%&T! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 21:46:08 +0100 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: Originality in Music!! Hi folks. Just waking up out of a deep, dark lurkdom. So deep and dark, I don't recognise a lot of the names here now LOL! Anyway, I wanted to chime in on this thread. I think that in the 60s and 70s, there was an aweful lot more scope for originality than now. The whole rock thing, and coupling it up with blues, jazz and classical music gave rise to a lot of original music. It's a fact that most genres are pretty well explored by now. I don't think that this in itself, means that an artist can't be original though. A big problem now is the role of the record companies, who in order to break a new artist, have to spend so much money on publicity to get them noticed, that they can't afford to have a 'product' that won't appeal to millions of people. The other side of that coin is that people tend to be sheep. Most of them have to be told what to wear, what to think and what to buy. (Present company is excepted, of course!) The combination means that most people will never be exposed to anything other than the most commercial of music styles. Here in the UK, pop music seems to pretty much begin and end with 'hip-hop', with a dull foray into what passes for punk. If you want to hear original music these days, you have to go looking for it at small live music clubs where unsigned acts play. Most of them will remain unsigned for the reasons given above, but believe me there is serious talent out there. As to whether these people have a way of making a living at music, that's a very hard question to answer. I could go on, but I'll cap it for now ;0) Martin. In London. > Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:20:14 +0000 > From: andeemac2005@comcast.net > Subject: Originality in Music!! > > Somebody said "I'll pit John Mayer and Jack White against the 70's guitar > gods any day." > > The point you missed is that Hendrix Clapton, J Page, Zappa, Santana and P > Metheny were doing this in the late 60's and early 70's, 40 years > ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and in my opinion these people came up with everything > new and different you could do with a Guitar, there is nothing new left to > do, can you argue with me on this ????????, so as good as John Mayer is, > he is only copying what was done 40 years ago, can you see my point, where > is the Originality in Music these days????. > Its just not good enough to say "Oh my music is as good as the Beatles" > back then all these artists were coming out with diverse Original Ideas, I > mean like King Crimson ( In the Court of the Crimson King) was back then > a totally new concept. that amazed me when i heard it for the first time, > and that song is still fresh today. If you just take P Metheny and Jimmy > Hendrix can you say there is anything new and different that can be > played on a guitar that those two havent covered, really???. > And Im sorry there isnt many new Melodic Songs being written by artists of > this Century, apart from Tori Amos that stay in the memory, or you can > sing or hum yourself, Returning to the Original thread, Joni Mitchells > songs TOWER over all but a handfull of other artists songs in terms of > Execution, Production, Feeling of the rendition of the Lyrics and Melody, > and the partnership of her and Jaco was made in Heaven. > American Idol was mentioned, the one thing about this show is the singers > CAN sing well live, there is no bucking the art, like a lot of singers do > today on Albums, with Digital Voice enhancers in the Studio, and when they > sing live there horrible. > I think to a certain extent we live in a post Prince and G Micheal world, > where the Big labels are wary of signing Artists that can Sing well, > Write there own songs, Produce themselfs in the Studio, and really dont > need the label to survive. No they want Artists they can use for 3 years > then toss aside like Creed where are they now???? Prince and G > Micheal dared to say to the label, " The art in my Music is 100 percent > ME, I can write new songs for any label and be just as good," and in > Princes case he is right isnt he after hearing his new CD last month. > Time will be the adudicater, but I dont see many new artists and Bands > around today being around in 2010 > Originality is the Key. you know stylize your music like no other artist > has done before. its not good enough just to Copy. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:47:54 -0700 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Exciting News!! > What's really kewl is that Joni Approves:~) Thanks for reminding us of this, Rose. I think that point has somehow been missed. And it's right there on the website for the world to notice. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 15:56:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Joni Standard Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: "Mingus replied "Two Grey Rooms" and "The Beat of Black Wings" to my post "It is true that Joni is not in the perfect position to write a song that is distinctly male in its perspective - though I would love to listen to her best effort in that direction." Yes ! Good examples. . Any more?" Hi Bob and Mingus I can think of some other songs that reflect some male perspective if only for the fact that they include lyrics "by" the man: The Priest - He said, "You wouldn't like it here No, it's no place you should share The roof is ripped with hurricanes And the room is always bare I need the wind and I seek the cold" The Last Time I Saw Richard - "he told me: "all romantics meet the same fate someday Cynical and drunk and boring someone in some dark cafe You laugh he said you think you're immune Go look at your eyes they're full of moon You like roses and kisses and pretty men to tell you All those pretty lies pretty lies When you gonna realise they're only pretty lies Only pretty lies just pretty lies" A Bird That Whistles - "Last time I saw that man He hung down his head and cried: Corrina Corrina Do you have to go Corrina Corrina Tell me why do you have to go Just made me come to love you girl Now you pack your things and go Leave me this bird that whistles Leave me this bird that sings I got a bird that whistles I got a bird that's singin' If I don't have you darlin' Birds don't mean nothin'" (btw, Isn't Corrina Corrina a traditional love song that usualy men used to sing? You should now that better than me:) Slouching Toward Bethlehem - Worth mentioning cause it was originaly written by a man, and though Joni "arranged" some of the original poet lyrics, most of his original images remained the same, so i'd say it's somewhere between him and her. The Sire of Sorrow - Basicaly (as i proved in a post years ago) most, if not all, of the lyrics are a translation to the original Hebrew (Biblical) words of Job's "little chats" with God. Though often considered as Joni's "own" suffering, it's still a man's song, and the fact that Joni hasn't changed the original Biblical "This vein man wishes to seem wise" and "man born of asses" lines says a lot. Love Puts on a New Face - Again, this song is divided between "his" point of view and "hers". The Crazy Cries of Love - If only for the fact that it was Donald Freed's poem, though Joni "helped" it a bit, i'd say it's started as his point of view about romance. One song that always confuses me, regarding this issue, is Woodstock. I often don't know where "his" (the child of God) lyrics end and where Joni's-self is taking place again. Not too sure which live show it was, (MOA? I'm really not sure) but in that live recording Joni adds the words "he said" before the "we are stardust" chorus, making it seem as if he was the one that said it to her. There are several other songs that include a man's "quate", but i thought the male's "lines" were too short to be really considered as male's point of view so i didn't mention them here. But i shell at least mention the brief general's speach from No Apologies, for it's not only male'ish but very shovenistic. Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 16:44:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: The Starry Night Since the lyric "He'd piss in their fireplace" was mentioned on one version of this thread, i'd like to say that though Turbulent Indigo is mainly a song about Van Gogh, i think that this lyric, however, refers to another painter who was also considered a bit mad (Joni mentions him and his work as an influence to her early abstract paintings) - Pollock. In the book "Pollock - An Americam Saga" (and i also think it features in the movie "Pollock" with Ed Harris), a famous incident that since then has become sort of a sybmbol to an artist's frustation, deals with Pollock pissing in the fireplace at a party at Guggenheim's townhouse during a fancy cocktail event. I think it's him that she's refering to in the pissing lyric. Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 22:03:57 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: Exciting News From: Lori >I'm not the type who sits enthralled by every performance at Jonifest. . . I am and I was _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 19:39:25 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: Joni Standard - ----- Original Message ----- From: > As for "Two Grey Rooms', ..... There has always been a > feeling that she was fantasizing herself finding her daughter secretly and > how she > would look down and see her pass by "I loved you 30 years ago," because > about > the time she put the words to "Speechless" killuren would have been coming > up > on 30 soon. Thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets this vibe from 'Two Grey Rooms'. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #167 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)