From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #164 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, June 8 2006 Volume 2006 : Number 164 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- The Greek Do What They Can [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: joni high five [Moni Kellermann ] Re: Jonifest [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: The "Joni Standard" [Nuriel Tobias ] Cheap Thrills [Nuriel Tobias ] RE: The "Joni Standard" [MINGSDANCE@aol.com] Great Joni Quote! ["anon anon" ] Re: Great Joni Quote! ["Jamie's Box of Paints" ] Re: Cheap Thrills ["Randy Remote" ] Re: The Greek Do What They Can ["gene" ] Re: The Greek Do What They Can [Bob.Muller@Fluor.com] Re: Cheap Thrills [Catherine McKay ] Re: Jonifest [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Nuriel Tobias ] Joni quotes [hell@ihug.co.nz] Re: Joni quotes ["Jamie's Box of Paints" ] Re: Joni quotes [Em ] Re: The Greek Do What They Can [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Joni quotes [hell@ihug.co.nz] Re: Joni quotes ["anon anon" ] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Smurf ] Re: Joni quotes ["Jamie's Box of Paints" ] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics ["Jamie's Box of Paints" ] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Smurf ] Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: The Greek Do What They Can ["gene" ] Re: Joni quotes ["Mark Scott" ] Another one for "Joni in fiction" [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 03:11:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: The Greek Do What They Can Just found out that the quate "The strong doing what they can, the weak suffering what they must" (Sex Kills) was actualy written by the Greek philosopher Thucydides (The Peloponnesian War, The Melian Dialogue (Book 5, Chapter 17). "since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." You can read more at: http://www.wellesley.edu/ClassicalStudies/CLCV102/Thucydides--MelianDialogue.html Joni Kills! Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 12:52:13 +0200 From: Moni Kellermann Subject: Re: joni high five From: http://www.rhino.com/store/digital/hifives.lasso Rhino Hi-Fives What are Rhino Hi-Fives? Theybre the first-ever product line created exclusively for digital retail -- five-song downloadable bundles of classic cuts by top artists and musical styles from the legendary Warner Music Group catalog. These bite-sized collections offer a quick overview of key tracks from an artist at an attractive price of $3.61 Thatbs 27% off full list price - -- to commemorate Rhinobs 27th year in business. Hi-Fives are available as WMA downloads for Windows users only (at 192kbps). However, you may also purchase Rhino Hi-Fives from the iTunes Music Store. The above mentioned link has a huge list of artists with that kind of release. moni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:51:40 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Jonifest Lori, speaking as a Joni Only list member, I have no problem with discussions on the next Jonifest. My only problem is that they are never held in my corner of the planet. I'd love to experience a Jonifest but, a quick trip across the globe is a little out of my budget right now. If folks were planning a Jonifest around here somewhere, I'd be glued for details. I've thrown this out there before but, I'll give it another shot. Are there any JMDLers in the region of the South Pacific or southeast Asia interested in a Down Under Jonifest? Any Aussies, New Zealanders, Malaysians, Fijians or anyone from anywhere in the world willing to make the trip? There are some wonderful places which would be ideal for something like that. Close to Sydney - Blue Mountains, Southern Highlands, Hunter Valley. As far as I know, there has never been an official Jonifest in this hemisphere. Joni herself even made the sacrifice once. In the meantime, go ahead, make me envious. Mark in Sydney. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 04:08:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: The "Joni Standard" I totaly agree with you, Mack. I was taught that everyone is unique. Nuri mack watson-bush wrote: I find comparions moot. Is the painting 'Sunflowers' better than the actual article, or vice versa? Is Joni's finest (and who would judge what that is) the best or better than Lady X, Sir Something. Art is art. All different and all with its own merits. Like Joni wrote or sang somewhere, each moment has its meaning and its purpose as does everything else and she wasn't even the first to say or think those things. And wrong, there can be no wrong in opinion. . mack Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 04:28:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Cheap Thrills The best thing about living in a dreadful place like Israel where fine art is treated like junk, is the fact that i've just heard that the intire Joni catalogue has entered the "cheap list", which means that you can get every Joni album for 6$, and the double-cd ones for 9$! And you thought the middle east is the worst place on earth, didn't ya?:) I was wondering...How much does a "regular" cd cost at the USA (In record stores)? (or if you're in another part of the world - how much do you have to pay there?) Do older Joni albums cost cheaper where you live? (but not second hand ones) Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 11:15:59 EDT From: MINGSDANCE@aol.com Subject: RE: The "Joni Standard" Bobsart writes: It is true that Joni is not in the perfect position to write a song that is distinctly male in its perspective - though I would love to listen to her best effort in that direction.>> "Two Grey Rooms" and "The Beat of Black Wings" Peace Mingus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 11:45:38 -0400 From: "anon anon" Subject: Great Joni Quote! http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jonimitche266610.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 17:40:37 +0100 From: "Jamie's Box of Paints" Subject: Re: Great Joni Quote! Thanks for this link, it'as great! I'd love to know in what context this statement was made... You have this mounting aggressive ignorance with the rabbit's foot of their particular religion. You don't really have any kind of spiritual law, just a kind of a rabid mental illness. The songs are a little slice of life. http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jonimitche266609.html Much Joni Jamie Zooby On 07/06/06, anon anon wrote: > http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jonimitche266610.html > - -- I am a lonely Painter I live in a Box of Paints I'm frightened by the devil But I'm drawn to those ones that 'aint afraid... Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at http://uk.voicespro.com/jamie.zubairi1 acting CV and showreel at http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 and on myspace at http://www.myspace.com/jamiezoob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 10:39:28 -0700 From: "Randy Remote" Subject: Re: Cheap Thrills - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nuriel Tobias" > I was wondering...How much does a "regular" cd cost at the USA (In record > stores)? (or if you're in another part of the world - how much do you have > to pay there?) Depends alot on the store-new releases go from about $12 on sale to list price (about $18). Budget line "super savers", old catalog can be specially priced around $10. CD sales have been slipping fast. It's still very easy to get what you want for free online, or just buy the song you like on itunes etc and skip the rest of the album. Nuri also said: > Just found out that the quate "The strong doing what they can, the weak > suffering what they must" (Sex Kills) was actualy written by the Greek > philosopher Thucydides (The Peloponnesian War, The Melian Dialogue (Book > 5, Chapter 17). > > "since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only > in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and > the weak suffer what they must." Cool-I never knew that ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 11:12:32 -0700 From: "gene" Subject: Re: The Greek Do What They Can for a person (joni) not to have years of formal education she is really a well read person. she has one hell of a muse. thanks nuriel, gene - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nuriel Tobias" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:11 AM Subject: The Greek Do What They Can > Just found out that the quate "The strong doing what they can, the weak > suffering what they must" (Sex Kills) was actualy written by the Greek > philosopher Thucydides (The Peloponnesian War, The Melian Dialogue (Book > 5, Chapter 17). > > "since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only > in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and > the weak suffer what they must." > > You can read more at: > > > http://www.wellesley.edu/ClassicalStudies/CLCV102/Thucydides--MelianDialogue.html > > Joni Kills! > > Nuri > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > !DSPAM:144,4486ab0e214118419917284! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 14:30:03 -0400 From: Bob.Muller@Fluor.com Subject: Re: The Greek Do What They Can I'm recalling the interview CD where Joni discusses this quote - it was on the Dreamland Interview CD I think, or maybe Fresh Aire. Seems like she was crediting it to Socrates, but I could be wrong - I'll dig out that disc and give it another listen. Bob NP: Hem, "When I Was Drinking" - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain proprietary, business-confidential and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that any use, review, retransmission, dissemination, distribution, reproduction or any action taken in reliance upon this message is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of the company. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 14:25:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Cheap Thrills - --- Randy Remote wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nuriel Tobias" > > I was wondering...How much does a "regular" cd > cost at the USA (In record > > stores)? (or if you're in another part of the > world - how much do you have > > to pay there?) > > Depends alot on the store-new releases go from about > $12 on sale to > list price (about $18). Budget line "super savers", > old catalog can be > specially priced around $10. CD sales have been > slipping fast. It's > still very easy to get what you want for free > online, or just buy the > song you like on itunes etc and skip the rest of the > album. > The prices are similar here, in Canadian dollars, so maybe they're actually cheaper here - sometimes. It depends. If it's top-40 stuff, you can often get them on sale for $15, give or take a few bucks. Some older, but either still-popular or they're-trying-to-get-rid-of-it stuff you can get two for $25 at HMV and so on. Stuff that's more unusual or imports can be up to $30. I've seen some older Joni CDs (not the remastered but the cheap "pressings" - I know it's not pressings for CDs, but I think you know what I mean) for $5 or $6 sometimes. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 06:22:16 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Jonifest Hi Lori. I would love to plan one but, I guess I was looking for expressions of interest. I don't think it would work if there were only one or two people. If anyone is interested in a Down Under Jonifest, please e-mail me and if there are enough people, I'll look into arrangements. Mark in Sydney NP Land of... - St Germain On 08/06/2006, at 3:09 AM, Lori Fye wrote: > > If folks were planning a Jonifest around here somewhere, I'd be > glued for details. > > Mark, have you considered planning one yourself? I know there are > others in your hemisphere who would enjoy attending -- and maybe even > some folks from "my" hemisphere too! > > Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 13:32:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics I've been meaning to write this for sometime now... I'm thinking about Joni's attitude towards gay men (and i'm only talking about the way it's reflected in her lyrics) I think the first time a gay character is mentioned in her lyrics (but for the child in The Circle Game - hehe, just kidding!) is David Geffen's one in Free Man In Paris (and we all know he's the man in that song). It's very popular these days to talk about gay men (not all of them for sure but still some and maybe a lot) as being succesful, well dressed, organised etc', and Joni, i think, was clever enought to spot that image way back in 1973, when the song was written. I actualy know and have met several gay men who reminded me of the man in the song. Workoholics, loaded with money, gay men who controled other people's lives and careers - and they were all waiting for their next vacation abroad where they were less known and could go wild. I for one don't find anything that's too gay in that song (well maybe the Paris thing), but for the lines: "Going cafe to cabaret Thinking how I'll feel when I find That very good friend of mine". This constant all-night wandering from place to place in order to find a good friend, a true love, is something that i think most gay men can relate to. And maybe being a free man in Paris is more than just not having to deal with phone screamers but also about being able to be yourself at one of the most gay friendly places around. Then comes the lyric from Underneath The Streelight: "Gayboys with their pants so tight Out in the neon light". Though i guess that that was indeed the fashion those days (for some gay men or boys) i must say that this lyric "smells" a bit cheap to me and reminds me of the way gay men were presented in porn, walking the streets at night with tight pants to show off their goodies for sexsual purposes. I find that the gay community still suffers from a very low image of sex hunting men, and though that lyric may be considered as cool, i for one never liked it too much. Then comes Tax Free with the lyric: "Tonight I'm going dancing With the drag queens and the punks". I like the fact that the drag queens here are a symbol for everyhting that's opposed to the sanctimonious skunks and religious fascists, the ones who dared to celebrate life no matter what. Mind you, i know for sure that punks totaly dislike the gay scene and drag queens, and i've no idea where Joni got the impression that they go so well together. Then comes Two Grey Rooms. It's such a beautiful song...So warm and emotional it never fails to bring tears to your eyes. The only problem i have with this song - and i've seen this happening in too many art works that deal with gay men - is that it's tragic. Like most sexualy active women characters in art who usualy get "punished" at the end by death or illness or loneliness - it seems to me (sometimes) that most artists can't "imagine" or maybe they're not interested, which is even worse, in dealing with happy-endings relationships between gay men. But the song is lovely, no matter what i'll say... I can't think of any other gay lyrics in Joni's songs, and if you can think of others i'd love to know:) Anyway, if you're interested in reading a song, which i think is the best song ever written about gay men by a straight women songwriter, i've added it right here: Kashka From Baghdad by Kate Bush Kashka from baghdad Lives in sin, they say, With another man, But no one knows who. Old friends never call there. Some wonder if lifes Inside at all-- If theres life inside at all. But we know the lady who rents the room. She catches them calling a la lune. At night Theyre seen Laughing, Loving. They know The way To be Happy. They never go for walks. Maybe its because The moons not bright enough. Theres light in love, you see. I watch their shadows, Tall and slim, In the window opposite. I long to be with them. cause when all the alley-cats come out, You can hear music from kashkas house. At night Theyre seen Laughing, Loving. They know The way To be Happy. Watching every night.* Dont you know theyre seen? Wont you let me laugh? Let me in your love. Watching every night. Dont you know theyre seen? Wont you let me laugh? Let me in your love. Watching every night. Dont you know theyre seen? Wont you let me laugh? Let me in your love. Watching every night. Dont you know theyre seen? Wont you let me laugh? Thanks for letting me share some thoughts with you guys and please don't be angry with me if i caused you any disagreement. Love, Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 08:53:59 +1200 From: hell@ihug.co.nz Subject: Joni quotes Great site, but I have a problem with this one: "With a painting, you don't have to go back and paint it again." http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jonimitche266625.html I've always thought Joni was incorrect with this analogy, including her "paint a starry night again, man" comment on MOA. The painting involves the creation of the work, and should be compared to the writing of the song, not the performing. The performance compares to the exhibition of the artwork, and I suspect Van Gogh's "Starry Night" has been seen and/or reproduced at least if not more times than any of Joni's songs have been heard or covered. There, I feel better now! Hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 22:45:23 +0100 From: "Jamie's Box of Paints" Subject: Re: Joni quotes Well, I guess you're right Hell, but I think for Joni the analogy was not about the performance of the painting but of the repeating of oneself by painting another version of the original. It's what architects get asked to do all the time 'Can you do another Bilbao?'. Can you imagine Van Gogh being asked 'Vinny, I loved A Starry Night that you gave to the Van Joneses, can you paint another one for our bathroom, it would go really well in there...' He probably would. Then he'd piss in their fireplace... It's not repeating the painting process that she was talking about in MOA but just repeating the picture. She never wanted to be a jukebox artist, always wanted to move forward, or move whichever direction she thought it was going. But never repeat. I guess that's what she was saying in that. And she wasn't saying that it was the same, she was saying that it was 'a major difference between the performing artist and doing a painting'. Bizarrely, there is evidence that Joni keeps on going back to paintings even after they've been exhibited and touches them up here and there... Anyway, many artists since Van Gogh have painted their own sunflowers, or Gauguin's Chairs or Starry Nights... it's never been Van Gogh, like Sinatra's BSN is never Joni's. Much Joni Jamie Zooby On 07/06/06, hell@ihug.co.nz wrote: > Great site, but I have a problem with this one: > > "With a painting, you don't have to go back and paint it > again." > > http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jonimitche266625.html > > I've always thought Joni was incorrect with this analogy, > including her "paint a starry night again, man" comment on > MOA. > > The painting involves the creation of the work, and should > be compared to the writing of the song, not the performing. > The performance compares to the exhibition of the artwork, > and I suspect Van Gogh's "Starry Night" has been seen and/or > reproduced at least if not more times than any of Joni's > songs have been heard or covered. > > There, I feel better now! > > Hell > - -- I am a lonely Painter I live in a Box of Paints I'm frightened by the devil But I'm drawn to those ones that 'aint afraid... Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at http://uk.voicespro.com/jamie.zubairi1 acting CV and showreel at http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 and on myspace at http://www.myspace.com/jamiezoob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 14:44:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni quotes hi Hell, I agree with you completely. Actually, as much as I love and respect Joni, and think she brilliant, I think the logic in many of the quotes is a bit "off". But what the heck. Its HER, she can say whatever she wishes.... its a bit like listening to an stoned and slightly deranged but really intelligent artist! Em - --- hell@ihug.co.nz wrote: > Great site, but I have a problem with this one: > > "With a painting, you don't have to go back and paint it > again." > > http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jonimitche266625.html > > I've always thought Joni was incorrect with this analogy, > including her "paint a starry night again, man" comment on > MOA. > > The painting involves the creation of the work, and should > be compared to the writing of the song, not the performing. > The performance compares to the exhibition of the artwork, > and I suspect Van Gogh's "Starry Night" has been seen and/or > reproduced at least if not more times than any of Joni's > songs have been heard or covered. > > There, I feel better now! > > Hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:19:41 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: The Greek Do What They Can > for a person (joni) not to have years of formal education she is really a > well read person. she has one hell of a muse. > thanks nuriel, gene > She's a genius, gene. And a mystic sage, I think. Her psychological complexity keeps me ever interested in her music. She, more than any other artist I've ever encountered, understands the oneness of everything. And she has a strong understanding of the concept of "inner divinity." I am not the least bit reluctant to mention her in the same breath as Socrates, Plato, Epictitus. She reminds me most especially of Marcus Aurelius. And Homer. Consider this Q&A I clipped from an 1988 interview with Joni on JM.com: JLW: Welcome back to our conversation with Joni Mitchell on Speak Easy, here in Los Angeles. One of the things I want to touch on is something that is near and dear to me, and I think is connected to you. I think native philosophy has inspired you, maybe informed you and I wondered, has their been specific parts of the native culture and way of thinking, that has helped you sustain your commitment to honesty and to your walk in beauty, your appreciation of beauty? JM: Absolutely. Yeah. At the end of his life, in his memoirs, Karl Jung said - - he discredited his work - he said, "everything I've learned, I've learned from my patients, bright women. Nothing I learned from one could be applied to the other. You can't make a dogma out of any of this, and all I found was one good practical idea - and I got it from the Pueblo Indians." When the Native American culture was intact, it was gloriously psychological, keeping harmony with the inner arrangement and the outer arrangement. This psychology was literally embroidered on to their saddlebags - they literally wore their psychology on their sleeves. The idea of the medicine wheel is one I've lived with for many years. It's an idea that has as its rudiments a belief that the four directions influence our perspectives. The north influences intellect. The south influences emotionality. The east, the rising sun, influences clarity. And the west influences sensitivity and tactile intelligence, and the look-within place, the deepening place. If you believe in this then living with it on a daily basis and making observations, it teaches you. So, the way I've used the medicine wheel is in a very specialized way because I don't really know much about the animal lore surrounding it because I haven't lived in the woodlands. But I've used it in terms of human relationships and in terms of the arts. One of its functions is the attempt to speak a whole truth and in that function it's referred to as the Chief's Wheel. This means that if you get up to speak in front of a group of people you understand that they are perceiving you and perceiving what you're saying from one of the eight directions. And in order to speak a whole truth you have to be able to address all of them. Shakespeare knew this - you can only get intellectual so long and then you have to send fall staff in or you get the rotten tomatoes. A well-rounded work of art, then, would have emotionality, sensuality, and so on. For instance, if you're going to play an instrument it's best to be playing it from southwest or southeast because it needs the emotional influence. If you go to the west, your touch improves, your tactile intelligence wakes up. If you go towards the east your clarity wakes up, which means that the design would probably be less complex. If you're playing from the north the work is going to be very cold and mathematical. That's an idea that I've lived with all my life, and oddly enough, it's also a Chinese idea. Man once observed that the four directions exert an influence. It's hard in a world full of televisions and electrical gadgets to remember that. But that idea has been one of the major guiding tools of my life. - --- Me again. Now, consider Joni's seminal thematic album, Blue. in the Native American Medicine Wheel philosophical context. This from a Native American religious website, re: Native American Medicine Wheel symbolism: BLUE symbolized failure, disappointment, or unsatisfied desire. To say "they shall never become blue" expressed the belief that they would never fail in anything they undertook. In love charms, the lover figuratively covered himself with red and prayed that his rival would become entirely blue and walk in a blue path. "He is entirely blue, " approximates meaning of the common English phrase, "He feels blue. "The blue spirits lived in the North. It has taken me all these years to make this connection and it just happened today, thanks to this thread. Thanks! And thank God for Joni Mitchell. Life is for learning. - -Julius > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nuriel Tobias" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:11 AM > Subject: The Greek Do What They Can > > > > Just found out that the quate "The strong doing what they can, the weak > > suffering what they must" (Sex Kills) was actualy written by the Greek > > philosopher Thucydides (The Peloponnesian War, The Melian Dialogue (Book > > 5, Chapter 17). > > > > "since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only > > in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and > > the weak suffer what they must." > > > > You can read more at: > > > > > > > http://www.wellesley.edu/ClassicalStudies/CLCV102/Thucydides--MelianDialogue. html > > > > Joni Kills! > > > > Nuri ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 10:36:43 +1200 From: hell@ihug.co.nz Subject: Re: Joni quotes Jamie wrote: > Well, I guess you're right Hell, but I think for > Joni the analogy was not about the performance of > the painting but of the repeating of oneself by > painting another version of the original. It's > what architects get asked to do all the time 'Can > you do another Bilbao?'. Can you imagine Van Gogh > being asked 'Vinny, I loved A Starry Night that you > gave to the Van Joneses, can you paint another one > for our bathroom, it would go really well in > there...' I understand what Joni meant, and I also understand what you're saying, but it still doesn't make sense to me. If we use your analogy above, ie. Van Gogh being asked to paint "another" Starry Night, then it would compare (IMO anyway) to Joni being asked to write another song "just like" Both Sides Now, or All I Want. Thank god she didn't, or she'd never have taken those musical risks with Mingus or even Court and Spark. And imagine a world with no Hejira?! I shudder at the thought! In fact, there are people here who've effectively asked her to "paint a Starry Night again, man" (myself included) by having a clear preference of one version of a song over another - the performances on Travelogue have been harshly criticised at times, but they're still the same song, just a different delivery. Like Van Gogh re-creating Starry Night with felt markers instead of oils ;o) I know I'm being pedantic about this, but it just irritates me for some reason. If we didn't want Joni to repeat herself, we'd listen to her CDs once, then throw them away! Hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:20:38 -0400 From: "anon anon" Subject: Re: Joni quotes >From: Em >Reply-To: Em >To: hell@ihug.co.nz, Joni List >Subject: Re: Joni quotes >Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 14:44:57 -0700 (PDT) > >hi Hell, I agree with you completely. Actually, as much as I love and >respect Joni, and think she brilliant, I think the logic in many of the >quotes is a bit "off". But what the heck. > One thing that's kind of distinctive about Joni's style of talking(at least how it appears in written form) is that she often seems to speak in a kind of associative way... she seems extremly intelligent, but at the same time a little abstract and associative... Maybe that has to do with being an artist? I can relate to that way of speaking myself... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 16:23:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics - --- Nuri says: > I can't think of any other gay lyrics in Joni's songs, and if you can think of others i'd love to know:) "Blew." - --Smurf . Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 00:39:51 +0100 From: "Jamie's Box of Paints" Subject: Re: Joni quotes That's an interesting one Hell, and I completely agree. Every new album (god, when was that? 1997!!!!) I get of hers and I guess I've been able to do this since 1991 I've been willing her on to 'do another Blue' but I've always been surprised at the directions that she's gone into. I remember the first time I put in TTT and heard Harlem in Havana's opening beats. I thought..WHOAH Joan, where are you leading us to THIS time? I'm not sure what you're being pedantic about though, Joni's analogy (which to me, as a *sometime* painter, makes perfect sense) or our want for her to be familiar and just do what we want her to do? As an actor, being asked to do another 'Hamlet' is very flattering and yes, the production might be very different (with the gazillion different variables that a production has night after night, let alone cast to cast or director to director) so the striving for repetition is fruitless. Yes you say the same words but someone coughing too loudly in the audience makes you irritated, or you see someone sexy in the 2nd row, the delivery changes, someone gives you a line in a different tone of voice or with different emphasis, your response adjusts. Yes you could sing a song every night for 6 months in a row, but these tiny variables, you're not playing well, something tickles in your throat, your lover has just been seen kissing someone else, you argued with your mum just before you went onstage... if you're true to yourself as a person, as a performer, these 'events' colour your delivery. You point up a different line, you smile at a phrase that you never though was funny, even though you wrote it. So Joni would choose her 'repertoire' for the concerts, rehearse them with her band, decide why she's singing them, the reason would change more she sings them. If she's being true to the song, and Joni can *never* be untrue (IMHO! heheh) the personal response is there. When someone asks you to sing 'The Last Time I Saw Richard' when you haven't rehearsed it and it hasn't popped it's head over the emotional radar and know no reason why you should include it in this particular concert, of course she's gonna mention it. To me, it's a way of acknowledging that people want her to sing a particular song but then politely deflecting all requests because THERE'S NO WAY THAT SHE CAN SING THEM TONIGHT WITHOUT PRACTICE without having to say 'no'. Of course we'd want Joni to sing the songs we love, we're emotional junkies, we want to regain the feeling that we got the first time we heard her sing it, or the first time we 'got' it. But she was saying that it was a major difference, that singers get asked to repeat while painters don't. Can you imagine if Van Gogh... I think there has been much said about that little joke she had with the audience, some people on the list took real offence to it. I think I'm going on too long about this subject. I guess it's kinda touchy for me because I have the 'off-night' syndrome. Yes, I do strive to achieve the emotional state that we found in rehearsal, or last night's performance or last MONTHS show but I know that I'm looking for something fleeting. We had it last night, hopefully we'll get it tonight, don't ask me to do it again, it might not come. I'll start the same journey but who knows what variable is going to knock a particular emotion into place or out of place. Paint a starry night again? I'll start with the same sized canvas and the same coloured paints but where I'll end up... Anyway, I'm deflecting from my own study so I shall go to bed and be refreshed for tomorrow. Peace and Much Joan (Miro) Jamie Zooby On 07/06/06, hell@ihug.co.nz wrote: > Jamie wrote: > > > Well, I guess you're right Hell, but I think for > > Joni the analogy was not about the performance of > > the painting but of the repeating of oneself by > > painting another version of the original. It's > > what architects get asked to do all the time 'Can > > you do another Bilbao?'. Can you imagine Van Gogh > > being asked 'Vinny, I loved A Starry Night that you > > gave to the Van Joneses, can you paint another one > > for our bathroom, it would go really well in > > there...' > > I understand what Joni meant, and I also understand what > you're saying, but it still doesn't make sense to me. If we > use your analogy above, ie. Van Gogh being asked to paint > "another" Starry Night, then it would compare (IMO anyway) > to Joni being asked to write another song "just like" Both > Sides Now, or All I Want. Thank god she didn't, or she'd > never have taken those musical risks with Mingus or even > Court and Spark. And imagine a world with no Hejira?! I > shudder at the thought! > > In fact, there are people here who've effectively asked her > to "paint a Starry Night again, man" (myself included) by > having a clear preference of one version of a song over > another - the performances on Travelogue have been harshly > criticised at times, but they're still the same song, just a > different delivery. Like Van Gogh re-creating Starry Night > with felt markers instead of oils ;o) > > I know I'm being pedantic about this, but it just irritates > me for some reason. If we didn't want Joni to repeat > herself, we'd listen to her CDs once, then throw them away! > > Hell > - -- I am a lonely Painter I live in a Box of Paints I'm frightened by the devil But I'm drawn to those ones that 'aint afraid... Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at http://uk.voicespro.com/jamie.zubairi1 acting CV and showreel at http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 and on myspace at http://www.myspace.com/jamiezoob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 00:42:20 +0100 From: "Jamie's Box of Paints" Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics lol Nuri you forgot Harlem in Havana 'See that tall girl? THAT'S A MAN!' That one too With a yellow feather fan' On 08/06/06, Smurf wrote: > --- Nuri says: > > > I can't think of any other gay lyrics in Joni's > songs, and if you can > think of others i'd love to know:) > > > "Blew." > > --Smurf > > > . > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > - -- I am a lonely Painter I live in a Box of Paints I'm frightened by the devil But I'm drawn to those ones that 'aint afraid... Jamie Zubairi can be found for voice-overs at http://uk.voicespro.com/jamie.zubairi1 acting CV and showreel at http://uk.castingcallpro.com/u/81749 and on myspace at http://www.myspace.com/jamiezoob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 17:40:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Joni quotes Em wrote: "its a bit like listening to an stoned and slightly deranged but really intelligent artist!" Em, i loved that! Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 17:37:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics Smurf wrote: --- Nuri says: > I can't think of any other gay lyrics in Joni's songs, and if you can think of others i'd love to know:) "Blew." - --Smurf . The only thing i can say about your joke, my dear, is that it sucks. Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 17:48:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics - --- Nuri wrote: > The only thing i can say about your joke, my dear, > is that it sucks. Well, I guess you de-fellated my ego! - --Smurf Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:02:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics Smurf wrote: Well, I guess you de-fellated my ego! By now you should have known that i can often be a pain in the ass. Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:45:53 -0700 From: "gene" Subject: Re: The Greek Do What They Can julius, you have such a way with words-------she's all that and more-----pure genius shape by life's experiences. communicate it, and tear you insides out. hope she decides to write a book one of these days. gene "i hope life isn't a joke because i don't get it." jack handey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 18:49:35 -0700 From: "Mark Scott" Subject: Re: Joni quotes - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Joni List" Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:53 PM Subject: Joni quotes > Great site, but I have a problem with this one: > > "With a painting, you don't have to go back and paint it > again." > > http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jonimitche266625.html > > I've always thought Joni was incorrect with this analogy, > including her "paint a starry night again, man" comment on > MOA. > > The painting involves the creation of the work, and should > be compared to the writing of the song, not the performing. Hm. Not sure I agree with you here, Hell. Just writing the song doesn't bring it to life, imo. The creation isn't really finished until it's performed and/or recorded. Once it's recorded, it can be played over and over just like 'Starry Night' can be exhibitted again and again. But Joni's contention was that she had to stand on a stage and 're-paint' not just the songs, but the arrangements, the vocals, all of it over and over again whenever she toured. Van Gogh is not there recreating 'Starry Night' everytime it's exhibited. On the other hand, the performance of a song is never exactly the same (Billie Holiday once said 'I never sing the same song the same way twice.'). 'Starry Night' is the same everytime it's exhibited. I suppose you can change the frame or the lighting or hang it upside down or sideways or on the floor or the ceiling or up in the attic or on a some wall or have it sit up in some loft somewhere. But the painting itself is never altered. A song is some variation of itself everytime it's performed and in some cases, as Joni herself has done, the performer alters it considerably in performance as time goes on and her perspective changes. Painters sometimes paint more than one canvas of the same subject with variations of light, shadow, color perspective.... So Joni is right...and she's wrong......hm. Critics of all expression. Judges in black and white. Saying it's wrong. Saying it's right. Or maybe they just have multiple personality disorder. You know two heads are better than one. Oh God. I'm catching Patti's JMOCD. Somebody shoot me! Please! {{{Patti Parlette}}} Mark somewhere in God's Country > The performance compares to the exhibition of the artwork, > and I suspect Van Gogh's "Starry Night" has been seen and/or > reproduced at least if not more times than any of Joni's > songs have been heard or covered. > > There, I feel better now! > > Hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 22:51:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Another one for "Joni in fiction" I'm reading a book called "The Ruins of California" by Martha Sherrill. The narrator, Inez, is a young girl living in California in the late 60s to 70s. Her parents are divorced and she has an older half-brother, Whitman, by her father's first marriage. The section of the book from which this paragraph is taken takes place in 1972 and Inez is in the seventh grade, so i guess that would make her about 12, to Whitman's 16 or so. Inez and Whitman are with Inez's best friend, Robyn, called Robbie. "Whitman brought something exciting into our lives - and made us feel, for a time anyway, like we were living in HippieWorld with him. One summer night, after he and Robbie and I had gone swimming up the street, at Christa Nixon's house, we came back to Abuelita's and turned off all the lights in the house. Whitman lit some incense. Then he brought my little portable stereo into the living room, put a Joni Mitchell album on the turntable, and made us listen to the songs in the dark." Sherill, Martha: The Ruins of California; The Penguin Press, 2006, p. 51 Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 02:19:00 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Gay Men In Joni's Lyrics Hi Nuri, I'd like to take a crack at presenting some alternative perspective on your Joni lyrics and the extent gay men are reflected in them in particular, or not. You wrote: > I think the first time a gay character is mentioned in her lyrics (but for > the child in The Circle Game - hehe, just kidding!) is David Geffen's one in > Free Man In Paris (and we all know he's the man in that song). > It's very popular these days to talk about gay men (not all of them for sure > but still some and maybe a lot) as being succesful, well dressed, organised > etc', and Joni, i think, was clever enought to spot that image way back in > 1973, when the song was written. I actualy know and have met several gay men > who reminded me of the man in the song. Workoholics, loaded with money, gay men > who controled other people's lives and careers - and they were all waiting > for their next vacation abroad where they were less known and could go wild. I > for one don't find anything that's too gay in that song (well maybe the > Paris thing), but for the lines: > "Going cafe to cabaret > Thinking how I'll feel when I find > That very good friend of mine". > If that's the only gay thing you find in the song, I'd say there's none at all. "Going cafe to cabaret..." could just as precisely describe a hetrosexual man going from place to place dreaming of finally realizing an idealized friendship, for instance. With a man or a woman. Further, I'd say the character you described smacks of someone with self-absorption issues. These types of people can be straight or gay, male or female. All are defined by a subconscious need to dominate and control. With regard to "going abroad and going wild," that could well be a very good example of grandiosity...it's the flip side of the depression coin. At any rate, these traits are not sexual preference related, in my opinion. > Then comes the lyric from Underneath The Streetlight: > "Gayboys with their pants so tight > Out in the neon light". > Though i guess that that was indeed the fashion those days (for some gay men > or boys) i must say that this lyric "smells" a bit cheap to me and reminds > me of the way gay men were presented in porn, walking the streets at night > with tight pants to show off their goodies for sexsual purposes. I find that the > gay community still suffers from a very low image of sex hunting men, and > though that lyric may be considered as cool, i for one never liked it too much. > Hmmm. I'd say don't watch porn, Nuri. Especially if you're looking for character realism. I'd also remind you that clothing, from a sociological perspective, has a great deal to do with dignity and empowerment. The point the characters under the streetlight make to me as a listener/reader is, basically, "what the fuck do *you* care what *I'm* wearing? And what does that say about *you*? We're here, we're queer, etc..." Also, one can be sure that, without exception, we dislike things we see in others that we first recognize and don't like first in ourselves. Who specifically in the gay community suffers so, by the way? Have you? > Then comes Tax Free with the lyric: > "Tonight I'm going dancing > With the drag queens and the punks". > I like the fact that the drag queens here are a symbol for everyhting > that's opposed to the sanctimonious skunks and religious fascists, the ones who > dared to celebrate life no matter what. Mind you, i know for sure that punks > totaly dislike the gay scene and drag queens, and i've no idea where Joni got > the impression that they go so well together. > Did you consider that maybe she was going club-hopping? First a gay club, then a punk joint? You know, in a cafe to cabaret way? Just a thought. We all recognize the songwriter for her eclecticism. I'm not sure I understand the premise of your symbol analysis though, if you'd care to elaborate. > Then comes Two Grey Rooms. It's such a beautiful song...So warm and > emotional it never fails to bring tears to your eyes. The only problem i have with > this song - and i've seen this happening in too many art works that deal with > gay men - is that it's tragic. Like most sexualy active women characters in > art who usualy get "punished" at the end by death or illness or loneliness - > it seems to me (sometimes) that most artists can't "imagine" or maybe they're > not interested, which is even worse, in dealing with happy-endings > relationships between gay men. But the song is lovely, no matter what i'll say... > > If you don't have an opinion on a song, you never have to have a problem > with it. That's what I've learned. Try not judging intent of the > songwriter, because absolutely everything is filtered through the unique individual > perception of the listener, I remind myself. We can't know Joni's 'real' > intent with those images. Chances are, she doesn't even know, sometimes. But > there is most assuredly always beauty and profound meaning there for > everybody. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Nuri. You're loved back. > - -Julius > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 08:52:04 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Subject: Re: The Greek Do What They Can >>...Shakespeare knew this - you can only get intellectual so long and then you have to send fall staff in or you get the rotten tomatoes...<< Maybe it is time for somebody to put 'Falstaff' back into the story, and cut 'fall staff' out. mike in bcn np photek - solaris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 08:54:48 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: great job everyone Very interesting reading on today's list (#217). Great job everyone. Keep 'em comin'. mike in bcn np photek ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2006 #164 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)