From: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #252 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, September 4 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 252 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Gift of The Magi [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Re: joni covers vol 68 ["mike pritchard" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2005 #337 [Lucatello Adriano ] Re: joni covers vol 68 - Crawl back under the covers [Bob Muller ] Joni & the Magi & Christian imagry [vince ] Re: MIchael Moore's letter [LCStanley7@aol.com] re: The Gift of the Magi ["mia ortlieb" ] Alanis's JLP (The New version) [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Joni Covers, Volume 68 - Oy Vey! [Nuriel Tobias ] Nothing wrong with BSN [Bob Muller ] Re: MIchael Moore's letter ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: MIchael Moore's letter [Catherine McKay ] Re: VMA's/Vince [vince ] sorry for no tag [vince ] Re: MIchael Moore's letter [Lori Fye ] Chief Justice Rehnquist Dead [jrmco1@aol.com] [none] ["Patti Parlette" ] Alanis ["Mike and Alice Hicks" ] Fw: VMA's/Vince ["Mike and Alice Hicks" ] Re: MIchael Moore's letter ["Bree Mcdonough" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 19:21:21 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: Re: Gift of The Magi On 03/09/2005, at 5:00 PM, onlyJMDL Digest wrote: > didn't you go to Sunday School? Actually, no I did not go to Sunday School. Why would you assume I am Christian? Mark in Sydney ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 11:38:45 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: joni covers vol 68 >>8. Brad Mehldau - Roses Blue: Now THIS one is anything but boring! Famed jazz pianist Mehldau turns in a spell-binding tour de force on one of Joni's most haunting melodies, improvising but never creating a huge distance from Joni's melodic structure. Though you'd never think so (until the end), this is a live recording from his "Live In Tokyo" release; sadly, this is only available as a bonus track on the Japanese release.<< The sharp-eyed ones amongst you will / may have noticed that Brad Mehldau is probably the NP that appears most on my posts. I think he is a wonderful pianist and composer. My interest is compounded by the fact that he has played and recorded many times in Barcelona, frequently with the Rossi brothers and Perico Sanbeat. and I think Jorge Rossy is still his preferred drummer, although Larry Grenadier is his regular bass player. His 'Art of the Trio' series is up to volume 5, and there are solo CDs too. There are many joni links, he guested with Wayne Shorter in 2001 I think, and half of his first record is a trio including Brian Blade on drums. Nick Drake fans on the list may be interested in Brad's version of 'River Man', which appears at least twice in Brad's work. Any chance of a 'yousend it' version of 'Roses Blue', covermeister? mike in bcn NP Brad Mehldau - Secret Love (one of the very few show tunes that Muller and Ashara didn't grace us with at Francefest) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 12:47:11 +0200 From: Lucatello Adriano Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2005 #337 On 3 Sep 2005, at 08:35, JMDL Digest wrote: > > Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 14:44:54 -0400 (EDT) > From: Catherine McKay > Subject: Re: Joni Covers, Volume 68 - Oy Vey! > > - --- Bob Muller wrote: > >> OK, so I'm a day late & a dollar short...I mean, >> it's not like anyone really READS these things >> anyway, right? >> > > Wrong-o! I read 'em faithfully, because they make me > laugh and I never cease to be amazed by how many of > these suckers there are, especially the lame versions > of BSN. > > Catherine > Toronto > Me too, me too... I am still stuck at Volume 24... John (NL), can you hear me? ;-) and I am amazed to see how you manage to carry on with your worthy task, thanks Bob... really. Adriano NP: Crazy Man Michael - Fairport Convention - Liege and Lief (thanks Queen Lulu!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 04:39:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: joni covers vol 68 - Crawl back under the covers You got it, Mike - I was actually going to send it yesterday, but Nate was using the computer to burn a stack of Dylan, Stones, and other CD's that he's been listening to all summer before we move him back to college today. So anyway, here 'tis...it's probably a fairly long download as the track is 8:17, but as has been said it is mesmerizing: http://s47.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0C7SO058QB4YX2JGWDN8KOXO9Z Bob Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 09:21:21 -0400 From: "JR" Subject: Re: Gift of The Magi - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark-Leon Thorne" To: Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 5:21 AM Subject: Re: Gift of The Magi > On 03/09/2005, at 5:00 PM, onlyJMDL Digest wrote: > > > didn't you go to Sunday School? > > Actually, no I did not go to Sunday School. Why would you assume I am > Christian? > > Mark in Sydney Didn't you notice the wink and smiles underneath it? It was a line from Raiders of the Lost Ark, said by Indiana Jones to the gov't men when the subject of the Ark of the Covenant came up and they appeared clueless, where he asked them "Didn't you go to Sunday School?" A little obscure, but I'm sorry you missed it! JR in NH ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 09:43:52 -0400 From: vince Subject: Joni & the Magi & Christian imagry I just realized I posted this originally as njc and it is very JC so I repost after editing since I wrote the other in the wee hours of the morning - Vince The Magi were the rabbinic scholars who remained in the Jewish once-forced diaspora/exile in Babylon after the fall of Jerusalem circa 586 BCE. Following the end of the Exilic under Darius and Cyrus of Persia, many of the Babylonia Jewish community went on a second exodus to Judea. The Magi were descendants of those who did not return to Judea following the Persians conquering Babylon. Under the cultural influence of the Persians. the Babylonia rabbinic scholars (ok, "rabbinic" is a bit premature historically, let's say scholars of Torah and the developing Prime Covenant canon, which some of them were writing and redacting) developed an interest in the zodiac that did not take hold within what became Judaism outside ancient Mesopotamia, and said interest died out when the Babylonian Jewish community did. It was through the Persians that the Babylonian Jews were introduced to Zoroastrians and Zorostrianism (a movement that did not survive the fall of the Second Temple.) They were scholars of Torah and the prophets and the writings that were current in year four of Before the Common Era (sometimes called 4 BC). The Matthewian account of Magi is surely mythological in a theological sense but an essential proclamation of the kerygma of the Gospel in the late 1st century of the Common Era. The message of the mythological account is what is true, not the lack of historicity of the event. The mythological Magi were not spacemen or anything other. That is just bullshit aka the National Enquirer mode. Joni's lyrics are far more steeped in Christian imagery and symbology and infused with Scriptural concepts than usually acknowledged. She was a person who had a quick and sharp intellect when she attended events and learned at her childhood and teen congregation(s), and with what she has learned since. The same was true of T. S. Eliot, a profoundly Christian poet. O. Henry, T. S. Eliot, and Joni all drew from the same source: Matthew 2. To ignore the Biblical sources in this post-Christian non religious era (which we are - rightly- in) does not enable historical, source, literary, and redactive critical studies of anything, with Scriptural and Biblical influences, including the Mitchell oeuvre. Remember that Mark and John (Christian gospels) have no nativity accounts and Luke's account does not allow for the Magi, the Magi are a particularly Matthewian interpolation. That in itself is the message and what O Henry, T S Eliot, and Joni followed. Jon is an artist that took Eucharistic understandings of the wine and informed "A Case of You" with sacramental theology to express her relationship with the physical/carnal lover subject of A Case of You, which is what lifts that song to an expression of sacramental (the word made flesh, the word made visible, in the act of love making as basic as the orgasm: I could drink a case of you" because "you fill my blood like holy wine, so bitter and so sweet" and thus recast what could be just another trite long song into the realm where it is transcendent in its overarching connection of love with the divine - Joni grasped what few have: that the sexual act in love is sacramental. And in her brilliance, she expressed it in a gender-non specific wording that says that all sexual actions in a deep abiding love communion of two where we can drink physically of each other in purest biological emittances is yet the ultimate in the love made carnal (flesh) in the highest spiritual union of two souls - and then take us to the tragedy of that probable ending - she could drink a case of her lover, and still stand for more, and yet we know, it will not happen. That is imagery and allusion used as only the greatest of verbalists can do - a trait she shares with Eliot as well as with O Henry. Joni may or may not be a Christian and no question is less relevant. She was raised as one and in her intelligence took the archetypes and themes of the Scriptures and infused her lyrics with those, for deeply spiritual and perhaps purely cultural reasons, or perhaps because that very imagery informed what she wanted to say. In that sense she takes us to a 19th century ethic where Christian allusions and allegory could compose the most secular of writings because that was a common collection of stories and shared sources current in the culture. Please always given Joni her due as a Christian imagist. She is one of the best of the 20th century, Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 10:22:45 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: MIchael Moore's letter Bree wrote: We as a country are spoiled rotten....and this is part or even most of the problem down there..instead pulling together SOMe of the victims are raping....murdering.....robbing ..looting..... Hi Bree, Yes, we are spoiled, the upper classes are. The people in New Orleans who are stuck there are not in those classes. Most were too poor to evacuate before the hurricane without owning cars and not being able to afford renting a hotel north of the city, etc. New Orleans has always had a large population of drug addicts and without their drugs now, it is not surprising they are getting violent. Just the heat alone down there could make a person lose their mind. This is the hottest part of the year in the south. I don't know how they are making it down there and don't blame the ones who aren't and who are crazy. I know you have roots in Kentucky, but it is not deep south. You can't imagine the extreme heat unless you have lived deep in the heart of Dixie. We've had temps over 100 F consistently this month here in Arkansas, and from having lived in Mobile, I know the heat is even more intense down there. The question where are our helicopters and why weren't there air drops of supplies right after the hurricane? are THE questions I have been asking too. We live just south of the largest army base in Arkansas, and I haven't seen nor heard any helicopters... I did when the war started. The Iraq war is the luxury of a rich/spoiled leadership... not a last resort effort. Now we are feeling the cost even greater. It wouldn't have been possible to war with Iraq if this national tragedy had occurred prior to the decision to go to war with Iraq. It is now blatantly obvious how we really can't afford the war. The helicopters should have been busy moving our people to safety this whole week. This is tragedy upon tragedy. It is another debt the war has raised. And, this debt is not able to be as hidden as the war dead and the national debt. We are going to see change as the result of this crisis... major change. This is going to cause a revolution in the minds and hearts of the majority of the people. The truth is the truth and this tragedy makes even more clear the truth that we could not afford to go to war with Iraq. This tragedy will not be forgotten. Poverty is real in this country as is the disease of addiction. These social sicknesses can't be ignored nor can the results be blamed on the people who are now suffering in New Orleans. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 12:08:43 -0500 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: The Gift of the Magi <> Magi are also the priestly class of the old and still existing religion of Zoroastrianism. In fact, Zoroastrian ideas about last things, salvation, and Satan were adopted by the pre-Christian Jews, and ultimately became the foundation for Christianity. Mia ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 10:53:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Alanis's JLP (The New version) I was wondering if folks around like the new Alanis album featuring the song "Your House" with the mentioning of Joni as the singer she was listening to all afternoon at her ex's flat? I find this album to be real cool, plus it features the great lyric in Ironic "It's like meeting the man of my dreams and then meeting his beautiful husband":) Thanks, Nuri Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 10:47:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Joni Covers, Volume 68 - Oy Vey! If so many covers of bsn are that lame then there must be something wrong with the song... Nuri Catherine McKay wrote:--- Bob Muller wrote: > OK, so I'm a day late & a dollar short...I mean, > it's not like anyone really READS these things > anyway, right? > Wrong-o! I read 'em faithfully, because they make me laugh and I never cease to be amazed by how many of these suckers there are, especially the lame versions of BSN. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Find your next car at http://autos.yahoo.ca - --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 12:10:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Muller Subject: Nothing wrong with BSN Nothing wrong with BSN at all; in fact it may be one of a handful of "perfect" songs in terms of its structure. Three verses, each similar but each one building textually/emotionally to the next. A chorus that also varies and musically complements the sonics of the verse in flawless fashion. BECAUSE of its perfection as a popular song, many many many people did it who had no business doing it (or anything, for that matter). When a lame performer does anything, it'll be lame. If a lame cast did "Jakob the Liar" and their performance stunk, you wouldn't blame the script, would you? Bob NP: Death Cab For Cutie, "No Joy In Mudville" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 15:26:51 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: MIchael Moore's letter Laura asked:> The question where are our helicopters and why weren't there air drops of supplies right after the hurricane? are THE questions I have been asking too. We live just south of the largest army base in Arkansas, and I haven't seen nor heard any helicopters... I did when the war started. < Many of the helicopters are in Iraq. My friend in Montana says all of his state's helicopters (used for fighting fires which by the way is the beginning of a potentially very bad fire season) save one that is broken are in Iraq (a way GWB figured he could wage this war on the cheap). Then there is this: "On Wednesday reporters listening to horrific stories of death and survival at the Biloxi Junior High School shelter looked north across Irish Hill Road and saw Air Force personnel playing basketball and performing calisthenics." An editorial in The Sun Herald in Biloxi, Miss It is plain as day that this government is being run by callous idiots. It is time that bush supporters have the courage to take a look at how flawed this administration is & stop making excuses. This is not about hindsight this is about RIGHT NOW. Two days ago the head of FEMA said he didn't know about the conditions at the Convention Center! The president of this country said "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." HUH?! I learned about this situation last weekend & even posted to this list a snippet of what I had read regarding the destruction potential from this hurricane. How come I knew but Bush didn't???????????????????????????????????????????? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 19:11:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: MIchael Moore's letter - --- Kate Bennett wrote: > Two days ago the head of FEMA said he didn't know > about the conditions at > the Convention Center! The president of this > country said "I don't think > anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." > > HUH?! I learned about this situation last weekend & > even posted to this > list a snippet of what I had read regarding the > destruction potential from > this hurricane. > > How come I knew but Bush > didn't???????????????????????????????????????????? You know how to read. Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:31:02 -0400 From: vince Subject: Re: VMA's/Vince Mike, I have not had time sooner to answer this, sorry. Since you have my name in the thread title, I feel I have to respond, and so let me as humbly as I can suggest that your knowledge of rap music, based on your description, is not very extensive and seems based on what sounds more like Victoria Secret commercials than anything else. Sure there are some songs and it seems to your point videos that are as you say. This is hardly new to music, unless you believe that the Beatles "fish and finger pie" was not about girl's crotches. Hey, if someone wants to believe that Mama's got a squeeze box, Daddy likes to play at night is an ode to accordion musicians, that's fine by me. Maybe "Brown Sugar" really is about... brown sugar and the ode to cinnamon is coming soon. We seem to have come at age at about the same time, as I too vividly remember the Beatles first appearance on Ed Sullivan , my father said to turn it off, I said no (the first time I ever said "no" to him) and that was a one-step entrance into generational conflict. If you characterize the music of that day as "the saturation of love songs" than we listened to different radio stations. But it does depend on context, surely. I used to work in foster care with abused children, part of the job was transporting them to parental visits, counseling, etc., and the "love songs" of the 60s took on a sinister tone when we had "classic rock" (oh, the sweet innocent music) on in the car. When you are driving the child or teen aged victim of rape, incest, or other, imagine how "young girl, get out of my mind, my love for you is way out of line, you better run, girl..." sounds. Or "she was just seventeen and you know what I mean." Or "young girl, you're a woman now." Or "hey little girl, comb your hair, fix your make-up, time to get ready for love." That is when one is not listening to songs about violence. "Met her in the mountains, there I took her life.. stabbed her with my knife." "I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy." (And that song I have no use for, in that my cousin, a deputy, was blown away in the line of duty and whether Marley or Clapton sing it, it is not a cheerful subject - as their song is.) And when you take children from their crack addicted parents, the fun of all the drug songs loses its joy... or was White Rabbit really about Alice in Wonderland and "she blew my nose and then she blew my mind" is about a nurse with a kleenex and a fascinating story of new developments in vitamin therapy. I mean, really. The music of any day is not sweet and innocent unlike the dirty music of today. yes, you have become your father, which involves a healthy dose of selective memory of one own's day. Lighting, indeed, strikes again. During yet another 2 Live Crew controversy, the announcer (and I unfortunately forget who) on a classical musical station that I was listening to commented that if 2 Live Crew had simply sung the same lyrics in Italian or German, it would be hailed as classical and played on his station... and then he played great excerpts of fun operas (Norma, killing one's children; Aida, treason; Madama Butterfly, colonial exploitation and illegitimate children and suicide; and the Ring Cycle, that all time Wagnerian fun fest of incest, bestiality, racism, and murder). 2 Live Crew's songs about hairy women and bald women seemed so tame in comparison. Of course the complaint back in the day was the political lyrics of rap, be it NWA or Tupac or whoever. I do not defend every thing in rap as I cannot with any form of music. I think there is much I would recommend about rap. I suggest the Roots, Phrenology a good album to start with. Catch the MTV five part history of rap next time they show it (tape it, tivo it, whatever), check out the Chuck D interview on the Commonwealth Club (did you listen to it a few months back when I but the link up?). Dare to be different than Dad and take the time to know the music. And me being me, check out the MTV hour long studies of Eminem. I love seeing the My name is video - his ode to leave it to Beaver cracks me up every time. I am attaching a link to a simple history of hip hop/rap (I disagree with the author of this site because I think there is a difference between the two just as I can distinguish the San Francisco psychedelic rock from heavy metal) but overall it has good resources on it and is well written. http://www.jahsonic.com/Rap.html I must alert that it does begin with an interesting picture of Lil Kim. Proof that rap is forcing naked wimmin on us - but she shows nothing, unlike Joni hanging her ass out in an album, or Janis Joplin who was proud of how good her breasts looked in that famous nude shot, Lil Kim is as sedate as Sally Rand - suggestive, nothing direct. As for your comment: "Is this the black man throwing it in the white face? You tell me." I can only reply: I can't respond to that, I cannot tell you anything there. I do not have enough knowledge of you to understand the overtones of your statement; it sounds rather frightening to me, frankly, but that may be because I do not know you to know the context in which you mean that. In these days when it takes the federal government six days to get to a hospital and a convention center to bring food and water and rescue to people living in a cess pool, I suggest that the next wave of rap political commentary is going to be very angry. Vince Mike and Alice Hicks wrote: >Vince, >I can understand your point clearly. I love all kinds of music myself and I >was there in the living room with my Dad watching the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. >Communists, bunch of junk, etc. was his take on all this and still is. He is >veteran of WWII so I just kept my musical feelings to myself. I figured he >deserved to vent his position. But I must admit, the rap thing does bother me >some. I try. I even like Coolio's song he put out a few years ago as he >talked about the ghetto life and and how tough it is. I really can appreciate >that. But what I don't get is why the crotches of girls have to be thrown in >our faces on tv. I have children that I cannot allow them to think that >behavior is okay. Is this what the mini skirt of the 60's/70's evolved to? I >don't know. I just know what I see.....arrogance, pimp, money hungry, >grabbin' all they can grab and throwing it in your face. Is this the black >man throwing it in the white face? You tell me. I try to like it because I >am a music lover. But there has to be more than the same old thing to talk >about. All of a sudden the saturation of love songs doesn't seem so bad. Did >I grow up to be my Dad? > >Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 22:32:35 -0400 From: vince Subject: sorry for no tag last post should have had njc in it, sorry, I was going to add it and forgot Vince ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 22:49:51 -0400 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: MIchael Moore's letter This was written by Terry Toedt, who left before Katrina hit. He's responding to the question of why more people didn't leave the danger zone: You're right, but to be perfectly fair, you have to look at things from the spectrum of prospective that we, who live here, see. First, there are, in the affected area, several hundred thousand people who could not leave because their health issues or financial issues prohibited them from doing so. One who sucks on oxygen to survive, who is bed-ridden, or is severely incapacitated, cannot just "up and leave". To do so would require a level of Civil support that is not available, anywhere in our country. There are many in the South (as well as the rest of the country) who live from paycheck to paycheck. They do not have any money for a hotel room, the gas required to drive 3 or 4 hundred miles, and not even the money required to feed themselves, and their families, on the way and back. There are a few shelters available that would feed them, and even provide some level of medical care, but there is no place where those people can find that information, nor could they get there. Remember, these people probably have no access or understanding of the Internet, nor do they have another avenue of information available to them. Many do not have any form of transportation, as well. Second, you have the problem of consistent "false alarms". Most of the people on the Coast have followed the "Mandatory Evacuation" orders many times. Many have done it a dozen, or two, times. Only to find that it was completely unnecessary. But, because the storm hit somewhere between where your home is, and where you went, a major expense (and major pain in the ass) was required just to get back home. Back home, where nothing had happened but sunshine and summer showers. Some of us have the money, and (very importantly) friends, to keep on evacuating and (even more importantly, get back quickly).... most don't. Third, when you evacuate you know that one of two things will happen; there will be nothing that happens, or absolute chaos. In the most likely event that nothing happens, you also know that, due to the emergency requirements of the community, "your stuff" is less protected. But, even worse, if something does happen, "your stuff" will very likely be completely unprotected, and looters will be everywhere. But, even worse yet, you also know that, because it is "your stuff", your property will be completely undamaged, but because they (the authorities) won't allow you to return, the looters will get it all. Some months hence, you will return to a perfectly preserved house or apartment, and EVERYTHING will be gone. This is the kind of thing that goes through your mind. Self-preservation is great, but there comes a point where we think we are sacrificing for nothing more than the CYA tactics by some low level bureaucrat. This time, Linda and I were still blessed in that we could afford to bail, which allowed us to leave "our stuff". But, by far, most of those who live in the Deep South, could not continue to do so. Since we are now essentially "homeless" and "jobless" we may not be able to dodge the next one, if we elect to stay in this area. The bottom line, rightly or wrongly, is that poverty in the U.S. can often be a death sentence. (c) Terry K. Toedt 31 August 2005 http://8thwood.com/terry_toedt.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 23:33:16 -0400 From: jrmco1@aol.com Subject: Chief Justice Rehnquist Dead ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 04:30:12 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: [none] Kate B., another mother for peace, wrote: >How come I knew but Bush >didn't???????????????????????????????????????????? You know how to read. Catherine Toronto Touche, Catherine! You took the words right out of my mouth, but said it better, comme d'habitude, because I would have had many more. I love your succinctness, and Smurf's! What a gift you are to us. So, I will add that he may know how to read, but REFUSES to. His advisors will tell him him everything he needs to know. How stupid is THAT? Uh oh...don't get me going again. If any Homeland Security people are infiltrating our JMDL, we'll all be on "No Fly" lists. Love, Patti P., staying up way too late, loving all these posts. There is no place like home! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 01:42:54 -0400 From: "Mike and Alice Hicks" Subject: Alanis Nuri, I was lucky enough to see Alanis this summer doing the JLP accoustic tour. I'd have to say that may have been one of the best concerts I have been to. To have been accoustic, she had the most energy of anyone ever. She really seemed to enjoy every moment. I think she has a little Joni in her. Talented, on the edge song writer. What can be better than that? Supposed is still my favorite album by her though. I have not heard the accoustic cd however. Mike NP: The Innocence Mission - Birdless ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 01:52:12 -0400 From: "Mike and Alice Hicks" Subject: Fw: VMA's/Vince - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike and Alice Hicks" To: "vince" Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 11:11 PM Subject: Re: VMA's/Vince > Vince, > Glad to receive a reply. You make very good and truthful points. I don't > need to look up the history site though. I have seen it as you have. My > beef is that blacks in general have a very hard time with money, teen > pregnancy, and drug addiction.....not that whites do not. But, the stats > are there. Yet, rap seems to flaunt the very things that are degrading to > their people. I guess the media is partly responsible. But, it seems in > order to make a buck rap artists will do anything short of nudity, > sometimes not, to promote their music. And sometimes the bleeps for > profanity out weigh the other lyrics. Rock and rap go beyond boundaries > in that respect, but I think rap artists think there are no boundaries. > Yes the songs you listed MAY have been about crotches and drugs, but at > least one had to delve into the album cover and read the lyric sheet to > find out. I don't think that the groups you spoke of would go to the > vulgarity limits to sell their product even today. The music seemed to be > primary for them. Rap seems to be opposite. Let's grab and hump each > other on video. Oh yeah, they put this on a cd. Let's go buy it. It > seems to me this is how it works for them. But hey, they're making bucks. > I guess that's what it's all about. And, the songs you referred to were > over a 30 year span. We have to, or not, listen to rap every day. How > long did it take to figure out about White Rabbit? Did you not have to > hear it a few times and search? No searching with most rap. It's in your > face. And at least you had to open the album cover to get Joni's ass. > > Mike > PS - Sorry about calling you out in the thread title. I am fairly new to > how this works. My apologies. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "vince" > To: "Mike and Alice Hicks" > Cc: > Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 9:31 PM > Subject: Re: VMA's/Vince > > >> Mike, >> >> I have not had time sooner to answer this, sorry. >> >> Since you have my name in the thread title, I feel I have to respond, and >> so let me as humbly as I can suggest that your knowledge of rap music, >> based on your description, is not very extensive and seems based on what >> sounds more like Victoria Secret commercials than anything else. Sure >> there are some songs and it seems to your point videos that are as you >> say. This is hardly new to music, unless you believe that the Beatles >> "fish and finger pie" was not about girl's crotches. Hey, if someone >> wants to believe that Mama's got a squeeze box, Daddy likes to play at >> night is an ode to accordion musicians, that's fine by me. Maybe "Brown >> Sugar" really is about... brown sugar and the ode to cinnamon is coming >> soon. >> We seem to have come at age at about the same time, as I too vividly >> remember the Beatles first appearance on Ed Sullivan , my father said to >> turn it off, I said no (the first time I ever said "no" to him) and that >> was a one-step entrance into generational conflict. If you characterize >> the music of that day as "the saturation of love songs" than we listened >> to different radio stations. But it does depend on context, surely. I >> used to work in foster care with abused children, part of the job was >> transporting them to parental visits, counseling, etc., and the "love >> songs" of the 60s took on a sinister tone when we had "classic rock" (oh, >> the sweet innocent music) on in the car. When you are driving the child >> or teen aged victim of rape, incest, or other, imagine how "young girl, >> get out of my mind, my love for you is way out of line, you better run, >> girl..." sounds. Or "she was just seventeen and you know what I mean." >> Or "young girl, you're a woman now." Or "hey little girl, comb your >> hair, fix your make-up, time to get ready for love." That is when one is >> not listening to songs about violence. "Met her in the mountains, there >> I took her life.. stabbed her with my knife." "I shot the sheriff, but I >> did not shoot the deputy." (And that song I have no use for, in that my >> cousin, a deputy, was blown away in the line of duty and whether Marley >> or Clapton sing it, it is not a cheerful subject - as their song is.) >> And when you take children from their crack addicted parents, the fun of >> all the drug songs loses its joy... or was White Rabbit really about >> Alice in Wonderland and "she blew my nose and then she blew my mind" is >> about a nurse with a kleenex and a fascinating story of new developments >> in vitamin therapy. >> >> I mean, really. The music of any day is not sweet and innocent unlike >> the dirty music of today. yes, you have become your father, which >> involves a healthy dose of selective memory of one own's day. Lighting, >> indeed, strikes again. >> During yet another 2 Live Crew controversy, the announcer (and I >> unfortunately forget who) on a classical musical station that I was >> listening to commented that if 2 Live Crew had simply sung the same >> lyrics in Italian or German, it would be hailed as classical and played >> on his station... and then he played great excerpts of fun operas (Norma, >> killing one's children; Aida, treason; Madama Butterfly, colonial >> exploitation and illegitimate children and suicide; and the Ring Cycle, >> that all time Wagnerian fun fest of incest, bestiality, racism, and >> murder). 2 Live Crew's songs about hairy women and bald women seemed so >> tame in comparison. >> >> Of course the complaint back in the day was the political lyrics of rap, >> be it NWA or Tupac or whoever. >> I do not defend every thing in rap as I cannot with any form of music. I >> think there is much I would recommend about rap. I suggest the Roots, >> Phrenology a good album to start with. Catch the MTV five part history >> of rap next time they show it (tape it, tivo it, whatever), check out the >> Chuck D interview on the Commonwealth Club (did you listen to it a few >> months back when I but the link up?). Dare to be different than Dad and >> take the time to know the music. >> >> And me being me, check out the MTV hour long studies of Eminem. I love >> seeing the My name is video - his ode to leave it to Beaver cracks me up >> every time. >> >> I am attaching a link to a simple history of hip hop/rap (I disagree with >> the author of this site because I think there is a difference between the >> two just as I can distinguish the San Francisco psychedelic rock from >> heavy metal) but overall it has good resources on it and is well >> written. >> http://www.jahsonic.com/Rap.html >> >> I must alert that it does begin with an interesting picture of Lil Kim. >> Proof that rap is forcing naked wimmin on us - but she shows nothing, >> unlike Joni hanging her ass out in an album, or Janis Joplin who was >> proud of how good her breasts looked in that famous nude shot, Lil Kim is >> as sedate as Sally Rand - suggestive, nothing direct. >> >> As for your comment: "Is this the black man throwing it in the white >> face? You tell me." I can only reply: I can't respond to that, I cannot >> tell you anything there. I do not have enough knowledge of you to >> understand the overtones of your statement; it sounds rather frightening >> to me, frankly, but that may be because I do not know you to know the >> context in which you mean that. >> >> In these days when it takes the federal government six days to get to a >> hospital and a convention center to bring food and water and rescue to >> people living in a cess pool, I suggest that the next wave of rap >> political commentary is going to be very angry. >> >> Vince >> >> Mike and Alice Hicks wrote: >> >>>Vince, >>>I can understand your point clearly. I love all kinds of music myself >>>and I >>>was there in the living room with my Dad watching the Beatles on Ed >>>Sullivan. >>>Communists, bunch of junk, etc. was his take on all this and still is. >>>He is >>>veteran of WWII so I just kept my musical feelings to myself. I figured >>>he >>>deserved to vent his position. But I must admit, the rap thing does >>>bother me >>>some. I try. I even like Coolio's song he put out a few years ago as he >>>talked about the ghetto life and and how tough it is. I really can >>>appreciate >>>that. But what I don't get is why the crotches of girls have to be >>>thrown in >>>our faces on tv. I have children that I cannot allow them to think that >>>behavior is okay. Is this what the mini skirt of the 60's/70's evolved >>>to? I >>>don't know. I just know what I see.....arrogance, pimp, money hungry, >>>grabbin' all they can grab and throwing it in your face. Is this the >>>black >>>man throwing it in the white face? You tell me. I try to like it >>>because I >>>am a music lover. But there has to be more than the same old thing to >>>talk >>>about. All of a sudden the saturation of love songs doesn't seem so bad. >>>Did >>>I grow up to be my Dad? >>> >>>Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 01:58:15 -0400 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: Re: MIchael Moore's letter >Hi Bree, > > Yes, we are spoiled, the upper classes are. The people in New >Orleans >who are stuck there are not in those classes. Most were too poor to >evacuate >before the hurricane without owning cars and not being able to afford >renting >a hotel north of the city, etc. Laura... Many of those stuck people could have gotten out. Did you know at least the day before the hurricane...and maybe even several days before.. busses roamed the neighborhoods looking for people to bus out of New Orleans proper? Most of those busses came back bare or with just one or two people. And yes...many could not get out because of their poverty. .....mental illness...handicapped...elderly. > New Orleans has always had a large population of drug addicts and >without their drugs now, it is not surprising they are getting violent. Yeah...and you can blame some of the tolerance down there on their inept mayor. The violence that got so out hand is because he chose to look the other way. Before any help could be given it was up to him and the governor to get things under control. So Bush is blamed and the mayor is given a pass. I wonder why? Just the >heat alone down there could make a person lose their mind. This is the >hottest part of the year in the south. I don't know how they are making >it down >there and don't blame the ones who aren't and who are crazy. SOOOO..it's no longer the twinkie defense but the HOT defense...THE HEAT MADE ME MURDER....RAPE......hi-jack > The Iraq war is the luxury of a rich/spoiled leadership... not a last >resort effort. Now we are feeling the cost even greater. It wouldn't >have >been possible to war with Iraq if this national tragedy had occurred prior >to >the decision to go to war with Iraq. It is now blatantly obvious how we >really >can't afford the war. The helicopters should have been busy moving our >people to safety this whole week. This is tragedy upon tragedy. It is >another >debt the war has raised. And, this debt is not able to be as hidden as >the >war dead and the national debt. I think..at least when I last checked... that the U.S. is still the richest country on earth. SO I think we can handle both. And besides....we are the most generous and we will take care of all the hurricane victims. The resources are pouring in....people are giving....things WILL get better. > We are going to see change as the result of this crisis... major >change. > This is going to cause a revolution in the minds and hearts of the >majority >of the people. The truth is the truth and this tragedy makes even more >clear the truth that we could not afford to go to war with Iraq. This >tragedy >will not be forgotten. Laura..please.....this was a very bad hurricane....mother nature caused this... our military evacuated just today from the convention center... 19,000 Americans . This tragedy of nature is being taken care of...... Where is your hope and optimism? Love.. Bree >Love, >Laura ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #252 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)