From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #49 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, February 16 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 049 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: joni party [Bob Muller ] Re: joni party [Catherine McKay ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Catherine McKay ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Doug ] Starbucks CD ["willytheshake100" ] Released today? Starbucks compilations actual JC ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu"] Re: starbucks cd ["Scott and Jody" ] Fresh Air interview ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Smurf ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Jamie Zubairi ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Jamie Zubairi ] Jonifest in France [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: Fresh Air interview [Em ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Em ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Doug ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Jamie Zubairi ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Em ] Re: Fresh Air interview ["McMillan Brad" ] Re: Fresh Air interview ["Steven Polifka" ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Doug ] Re: Fresh Air interview ["Steven Polifka" ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Em ] sjc? Joni bashers ["Patti Parlette" ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Smurf ] Re: Fresh Air interview [Em ] Re: Fresh Air interview [FMYFL@aol.com] "Joni Mitchell: Artist's Choice", 100% JC ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] re: Joni's "choice" [mags h ] re: Joni's 'choice' ["Gerald A. Notaro" ] Re: sjc? Joni bashers [JRMCo1@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:53:14 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Muller Subject: Re: joni party eaddy sutton wrote: I can't imagine such a thing, except in those cases where you're in an area that's got enough of US around to make it work. When I take things to various shops for duplication (cd artwork, videos, etc) about the best I can hope for is "Joni Mitchell - I've HEARD of her". Anyway, if you can indeed pull this off, I would recommend getting your hands on some video that's not available to the general public - your Joni-pals will be very impressed and think that you have some connections - and you do! Bob NP: The Carol Hamersma Trio, "Chelsea Morning" Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:59:56 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: joni party --- Doug wrote: > In my experience it's more like one in a hundred. I > have one friend > (male) who was visibly upset at the mere mention of > her name. > (probably a sign of some deep psychological > problems.) > > Doug LOL! Trying to look for the silver lining, I think... but at least he has heard of her! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:10:49 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview --- Music Is Special wrote: > Perhaps this was already discussed but I finally got > time to listen to the > Fresh Air interview. In it Joni twice says "when my > daughter WAS TAKEN FROM > ME" (I added the caps). I had the impression from > Karen's book that Joni > put her baby up for adoption. If Karen is correct > than I regard this quote > as a very interesting insight into Joni given the > self-delusion implied by > that. Or if Karen is not correct, then there is > more to the story than we > know so far. Can somebody set me straight? > The baby was not "taken" in the sense of someone snatching her from Joni's arms, but, given her financial situation at the time and the attitudes towards unwed mothers, then there was a great deal of pressure put on Joni to put her daughter up for adoption and she felt (rightly so for the time) that she had no choice. She went as far as marrying someone she didn't particularly love in order to give her daughter a home, after he promised her that he would accept Joni's daughter, and then he reneged on his promise, so she had to give up her child and the marriage failed not long after that. I believe the baby was taken from her. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:02:12 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview I am going to stray from what may be the majority voice, but it was clearly Joni's choice. Many women of this era raised children as a single mother, including someone in a very similar situation, Mary Travers. In fact Mary may well have risked more, having already achieved success. I wonder how much of Joni's obvious ambition played into her decision. Certainly her mother and father would have been able to raise Kilauren. It happened with many families, including my own. My closest cousin went to Puerto Rico in 1967 for 5 months with her mother. They came back with an "adopted" baby. My aunt raised her as her own. My cousin went on to medical school and became one of New York's outstanding OB/GYNs, eventually marrying her daughter's father, who became a successful attorney after law school, and had another daughter. There were choices to be made, even back then. Jerry > --- Music Is Special > wrote: >> Perhaps this was already discussed but I finally got >> time to listen to the >> Fresh Air interview. In it Joni twice says "when my >> daughter WAS TAKEN FROM >> ME" (I added the caps). I had the impression from >> Karen's book that Joni >> put her baby up for adoption. If Karen is correct >> than I regard this quote >> as a very interesting insight into Joni given the >> self-delusion implied by >> that. Or if Karen is not correct, then there is >> more to the story than we >> know so far. Can somebody set me straight? >> > > The baby was not "taken" in the sense of someone > snatching her from Joni's arms, but, given her > financial situation at the time and the attitudes > towards unwed mothers, then there was a great deal of > pressure put on Joni to put her daughter up for > adoption and she felt (rightly so for the time) that > she had no choice. She went as far as marrying someone > she didn't particularly love in order to give her > daughter a home, after he promised her that he would > accept Joni's daughter, and then he reneged on his > promise, so she had to give up her child and the > marriage failed not long after that. I believe the > baby was taken from her. > > > ===== > Catherine > Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:12:55 -0500 From: Doug Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview I agree Jerry, and I hope we don't see any more of that "Joni Mitchell Never Lies" bullshit. Doug Jerry Notaro wrote: >I am going to stray from what may be the majority voice, but it was clearly >Joni's choice. Many women of this era raised children as a single mother, >including someone in a very similar situation, Mary Travers. In fact Mary >may well have risked more, having already achieved success. I wonder how >much of Joni's obvious ambition played into her decision. Certainly her >mother and father would have been able to raise Kilauren. It happened with >many families, including my own. My closest cousin went to Puerto Rico in >1967 for 5 months with her mother. They came back with an "adopted" baby. My >aunt raised her as her own. My cousin went on to medical school and became >one of New York's outstanding OB/GYNs, eventually marrying her daughter's >father, who became a successful attorney after law school, and had another >daughter. There were choices to be made, even back then. > >Jerry > > > >> --- Music Is Special >>wrote: >> >> >>>Perhaps this was already discussed but I finally got >>>time to listen to the >>>Fresh Air interview. In it Joni twice says "when my >>>daughter WAS TAKEN FROM >>>ME" (I added the caps). I had the impression from >>>Karen's book that Joni >>>put her baby up for adoption. If Karen is correct >>>than I regard this quote >>>as a very interesting insight into Joni given the >>>self-delusion implied by >>>that. Or if Karen is not correct, then there is >>>more to the story than we >>>know so far. Can somebody set me straight? >>> >>> >>> >>The baby was not "taken" in the sense of someone >>snatching her from Joni's arms, but, given her >>financial situation at the time and the attitudes >>towards unwed mothers, then there was a great deal of >>pressure put on Joni to put her daughter up for >>adoption and she felt (rightly so for the time) that >>she had no choice. She went as far as marrying someone >>she didn't particularly love in order to give her >>daughter a home, after he promised her that he would >>accept Joni's daughter, and then he reneged on his >>promise, so she had to give up her child and the >>marriage failed not long after that. I believe the >>baby was taken from her. >> >> >>===== >>Catherine >>Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:13:58 -0000 From: "willytheshake100" Subject: Starbucks CD Just heard the Starbucks CD is available. This from me sis in TX. >I got the CD - haven't had a chance to listen to it but >Duke Ellington is on there twice, Billie Holliday, Chuck >Berry, Steel Dan. ... Also I bought a CD that is Joni >tracks picked by her friends. So David Crosby picked For >Free and there are others - like Robbie Robertson and >Donald Fagan.< Sounds like there are two CDs!! WtS NP - There Is A Light That Never Goes Out, Joseph Arthur ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:15:51 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Released today? Starbucks compilations actual JC I'll be at Starbucks this afternoon to see if they have the Joni Mitchell version of Artist's Choice. If so, I'll write a review this evening. All the best, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:20:09 -0500 From: "Scott and Jody" Subject: Re: starbucks cd Hi! I just picked them up this morning. We buy the Artist Choice CD's to play at work. Is there anyone I can call right now who has time to type some comments? I know this sounds crazy, but I just dropped a F#!@#!?g cast Iron pot on my foot, and now my hand is numb as well. I'm probably having a stroke...At any rate, I am home right now. She comments about each song , but the intro tells why she quit the business. The other cd has interesting comments from musicians that chose her music. Robbie Robertson comments about stuff I didn't know about.. later and Phyllis email me and I'll call you. jody - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phyliss" To: "JMDL" Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:40 PM Subject: starbucks cd > Has anybody heard anything about the Joni starbucks cd(s) that were > supposed to come out today? I don't see anything on the website yet.... > inquiring minds need to know! > > Phyliss ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:28:00 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Fresh Air interview Eric, I don't think there's more to than what you've read and heard. Giving up Kelly/Kilauren was probably the single most painful thing she ever did and saying "TAKEN" probably makes it one speck easier to tell the story. Unlike most natural mothers, Joni has proably called upon to tell this story more than a dozen times already. (I can empathize with Joni because I always talk about the day when my ex-girlfriend left as "when my ex left." I know it sounds like we were married. She was my soul mate so I figure I'm entitled.) She speaks in metaphor, even when plain speech would be more accurate. It's Joni-speak. Jim npimh: Joni-speak: "Put some Elvis on this will 'ya, Henry?" English: "Would you add some reverb to this track, Henry?" Eric said, >I finally got time to listen to the Fresh Air interview. In it Joni twice says "when my daughter WAS TAKEN FROM ME" (I added the caps). I had the impression from Karen's book that Joni put her baby up for adoption. If Karen is correct than I regard this quote as a very interesting insight into Joni given the self-delusion implied by that. Or if Karen is not correct, then there is more to the story than we know know so far.> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:41:22 -0800 (PST) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview Doug wrote: I agree Jerry, and I hope we don't see any more of that "Joni Mitchell Never Lies" bullshit. I don't think anyone ever meant for that to be taken literally, Doug. Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:49:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview I don't know Jerry... there certainly are choices but there are lots of women of that generation who went the 'adoption' route - there was a notable member of Parliament who gave up her child for adoption (and had a very public reunion), the actress Pauline Collins (of 'Upstairs Downstairs' fame) who also had a reunion with her son. Bizarrely I know her other children with John Alderton but don't know the story of the adoption and didn't until I read her autobiography. I guess we must contextualise the 'need for independence' that she was going through, that all of us go through when we first leave home. The shame of being an unwed mother (ok, so Joan isn't THAT religious but her parents are. and the community she was brought up in certainly was. This is the Canadian Prairies in the early '60s, and sorry for painting with a broad brush here folks, but like the Midlands where I landed in the 80's, or God forbid, Malaysia, where I grew up in the 70's, it's not the cradle of societal change that the cities were) must have been great to the young Miss Anderson. we know her as a strong independent woman who must've gone through ALL her life lessons before she started writing. I remember being 20, in college and doing things that my parents would be ashamed of if they knew about it. Now I'm older, yes they're disappointed with my actions but we can talk about it, over a decade later. We have to remember that she tried to keep Kelly Dale from the adoption route by putting her up first in foster homes and then quickly agreeing to get married to someone on the promise that he would raise her child and keep her honest. She was a student when she got pregnant, she wanted a career in painting. she sang folk songs for pin money. She didn't have the success of Mary Travers to allow her to keep a home let alone raise a child. She was Joni Anderson. A nobody who sang songs written by other people. Ok, some women did raise their children as single mothers, but how many of those women came from a rural area? I'm not condoning Joni's behaviour, I'm in no place to judge. I can understand her choices and when Chuck decided that 'that was that' and I'm not raising anyone else's child' the option of raising her child was taken away from her. She started writing to keep the demons of this child that she 'gave away' at bay. We wouldn't have the Joni Mitchell, singer songwriter, if there was no struggle to justify it in her head. Much Joni Jamie Zoob --- Jerry Notaro wrote: > I am going to stray from what may be the majority > voice, but it was clearly > Joni's choice. Many women of this era raised > children as a single mother, > including someone in a very similar situation, Mary > Travers. In fact Mary > may well have risked more, having already achieved > success. I wonder how > much of Joni's obvious ambition played into her > decision. Certainly her > mother and father would have been able to raise > Kilauren. It happened with > many families, including my own. My closest cousin > went to Puerto Rico in > 1967 for 5 months with her mother. They came back > with an "adopted" baby. My > aunt raised her as her own. My cousin went on to > medical school and became > one of New York's outstanding OB/GYNs, eventually > marrying her daughter's > father, who became a successful attorney after law > school, and had another > daughter. There were choices to be made, even back > then. > > Jerry > ___________________________________________________________ How much mail storage do you get for free? Yahoo! Mail gives you 250MB! Get Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 14:51:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview Hi Doug Well, she never lied. We just never asked! ;-) Much Joni Jamie Zoob --- Doug wrote: > I agree Jerry, and I hope we don't see any more of > that "Joni Mitchell > Never Lies" bullshit. > Doug ___________________________________________________________ Too much spam in your inbox? Yahoo! Mail gives you the best spam protection for FREE! http://uk.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:03:17 EST From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Jonifest in France Eric and I have our tickets booked, our deposits in, and we are speaking French on a daily basis!! (Eric perfectly, and well, mine has a lot to be desired!) Who is joining us for this AWESOME fest??? Laurent, would you post a list of definites and maybes? C'mon you guys!! VENIR EN FRANCE EN AOUT! Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:18:49 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview - --- "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: > She speaks in metaphor, even when plain speech would be more > accurate. > It's Joni-speak. Just one of the characteristics of living in turbulent indigo. Comes with the territory. Em ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:28:48 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview > Ok, some women did raise their children as single > mothers, but how many of those women came from a rural > area? But she was in Toronto by then, one of the most liberal areas of North America. The very reason she moved from the Prairie Culture was to escape it. All of her songs and interviews reflect her desire to reject those morals and escape the ideal of what her mother and culture expected from her. She paints herself as The Rebel Without a Cause. Even in the Prairies, Canada reflected a much more liberal way of life, with free health care for all, and a haven for American War resisters. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:31:52 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview JONI MITCHELL NEVER LIES - --- Doug wrote: > I agree Jerry, and I hope we don't see any more of that "Joni > Mitchell > Never Lies" bullshit. > Doug > > Jerry Notaro wrote: > > >I am going to stray from what may be the majority voice, but it was > clearly > >Joni's choice. Many women of this era raised children as a single > mother, > >including someone in a very similar situation, Mary Travers. In fact > Mary > >may well have risked more, having already achieved success. I wonder > how > >much of Joni's obvious ambition played into her decision. Certainly > her > >mother and father would have been able to raise Kilauren. It > happened with > >many families, including my own. My closest cousin went to Puerto > Rico in > >1967 for 5 months with her mother. They came back with an "adopted" > baby. My > >aunt raised her as her own. My cousin went on to medical school and > became > >one of New York's outstanding OB/GYNs, eventually marrying her > daughter's > >father, who became a successful attorney after law school, and had > another > >daughter. There were choices to be made, even back then. > > > >Jerry > > > > > > > >> --- Music Is Special > >>wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Perhaps this was already discussed but I finally got > >>>time to listen to the > >>>Fresh Air interview. In it Joni twice says "when my > >>>daughter WAS TAKEN FROM > >>>ME" (I added the caps). I had the impression from > >>>Karen's book that Joni > >>>put her baby up for adoption. If Karen is correct > >>>than I regard this quote > >>>as a very interesting insight into Joni given the > >>>self-delusion implied by > >>>that. Or if Karen is not correct, then there is > >>>more to the story than we > >>>know so far. Can somebody set me straight? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>The baby was not "taken" in the sense of someone > >>snatching her from Joni's arms, but, given her > >>financial situation at the time and the attitudes > >>towards unwed mothers, then there was a great deal of > >>pressure put on Joni to put her daughter up for > >>adoption and she felt (rightly so for the time) that > >>she had no choice. She went as far as marrying someone > >>she didn't particularly love in order to give her > >>daughter a home, after he promised her that he would > >>accept Joni's daughter, and then he reneged on his > >>promise, so she had to give up her child and the > >>marriage failed not long after that. I believe the > >>baby was taken from her. > >> > >> > >>===== > >>Catherine > >>Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:10:45 -0500 From: Doug Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview Maybe I used too strong a word. I was originally going to say "nonsense" but it didn't seem to express my true feelings. So, in deference to those who might have been offended, I'll revert to the original... NONSENSE IT IS!! Doug Seriously, I would be embarrassed to be associated with such a maudlin, and obviously false statement. Smurf wrote: >Doug wrote: >I agree Jerry, and I hope we don't see any more of that "Joni Mitchell Never Lies" bullshit. > > >I don't think anyone ever meant for that to be taken literally, Doug. > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 16:23:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview I've always got the picture that she paints herself as a goody-goody back in those days. She always hung out with the kids from the wrong side of the tracks because they were the more interesting kids. When she went to visit them and hang out on 'the wrong side of the tracks' they always sent her home for looking goody-goody. Whether she liked it or not, that's what she was seen as because her community, her father owned a shop and had a place (whatever place it is) within that community. In interview she's mentioned (possibly twice) when she used to hang out with the interesting kids until she turned 17 or 18 when the drop-outs started getting into crime rather than working, as they saw no prospects of working, so she left their company. If that is not an example of a latent sense of morality, then I don't know. She paints herself as a party girl rather than a rebel, and always with a sense of properness. I don't know many rebels without causes who can sew, let alone sew their wedding dresses and those of their bridemaids. Remember, wanting to be seen as something, while actually being something else are two different things. When you're younger, you do want to fight your parents and your upbringing but when you f&ck up you go crawling to mama. And she f&cked-up big time (according to the WOHAM dvd it's claimed that Joni lost her virginity AND became pregnant at the same time, which doesn't sound like a girl who has had a lot of experience, or lived in a community that sexual encounter was the norm for young women of her age.) but she didn't run home to Mama. Obviously I have a lot of thinking time while I'm doing filing for the office at work. At least I can listen to music and think about Joni! Jerry, I hope that you're finding this conversation as stimulating and enjoyable as I am. I don't realise how much of Joni history I retain until a topic like this comes up. I've had this one with a friend of mine so I'm a little prepared. Much Joni --- Jerry Notaro wrote: > > Ok, some women did raise their children as single > > mothers, but how many of those women came from a > rural > > area? > > But she was in Toronto by then, one of the most > liberal areas of North > America. The very reason she moved from the Prairie > Culture was to escape > it. All of her songs and interviews reflect her > desire to reject those > morals and escape the ideal of what her mother and > culture expected from > her. She paints herself as The Rebel Without a > Cause. Even in the Prairies, > Canada reflected a much more liberal way of life, > with free health care for > all, and a haven for American War resisters. > > Jerry > ___________________________________________________________ Does your mail provider give you a free online calendar? Yahoo! does. Get Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:23:24 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview isn't there room for nonsense in the world? Personally, I crave nonsense as it provides respite from reality. So, I take it you doubt Clapton is God? Em - --- Doug wrote: > Maybe I used too strong a word. I was originally going to say > "nonsense" > but it didn't seem to express my true feelings. > So, in deference to those who might have been offended, I'll revert > to > the original... NONSENSE IT IS!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:44:03 -0500 From: "McMillan Brad" Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview Personally, I find Joni's 'feet of clay' very humanizing. As to the issue at hand, "Little Green" does have some rather self-serving lyrics, but she speaks too of lying to her parents and yet says she's not ashamed. There was obviously some conflict there. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug" To: "Jerry Notaro" Cc: "Catherine McKay" ; "Music Is Special" ; "Joni List" Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:12 AM Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview > I agree Jerry, and I hope we don't see any more of that "Joni Mitchell > Never Lies" bullshit. > Doug > > Jerry Notaro wrote: > > >I am going to stray from what may be the majority voice, but it was clearly > >Joni's choice. Many women of this era raised children as a single mother, > >including someone in a very similar situation, Mary Travers. In fact Mary > >may well have risked more, having already achieved success. I wonder how > >much of Joni's obvious ambition played into her decision. Certainly her > >mother and father would have been able to raise Kilauren. It happened with > >many families, including my own. My closest cousin went to Puerto Rico in > >1967 for 5 months with her mother. They came back with an "adopted" baby. My > >aunt raised her as her own. My cousin went on to medical school and became > >one of New York's outstanding OB/GYNs, eventually marrying her daughter's > >father, who became a successful attorney after law school, and had another > >daughter. There were choices to be made, even back then. > > > >Jerry > > > > > > > >> --- Music Is Special > >>wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Perhaps this was already discussed but I finally got > >>>time to listen to the > >>>Fresh Air interview. In it Joni twice says "when my > >>>daughter WAS TAKEN FROM > >>>ME" (I added the caps). I had the impression from > >>>Karen's book that Joni > >>>put her baby up for adoption. If Karen is correct > >>>than I regard this quote > >>>as a very interesting insight into Joni given the > >>>self-delusion implied by > >>>that. Or if Karen is not correct, then there is > >>>more to the story than we > >>>know so far. Can somebody set me straight? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>The baby was not "taken" in the sense of someone > >>snatching her from Joni's arms, but, given her > >>financial situation at the time and the attitudes > >>towards unwed mothers, then there was a great deal of > >>pressure put on Joni to put her daughter up for > >>adoption and she felt (rightly so for the time) that > >>she had no choice. She went as far as marrying someone > >>she didn't particularly love in order to give her > >>daughter a home, after he promised her that he would > >>accept Joni's daughter, and then he reneged on his > >>promise, so she had to give up her child and the > >>marriage failed not long after that. I believe the > >>baby was taken from her. > >> > >> > >>===== > >>Catherine > >>Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:45:12 -0600 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview This last Summer, I turned Jeff onto Hissing of Summer Lawns on a weekend getaway. As Boho Dance came on during our road trip, I finally, even after loving that song for years, got it. ...It's just some steps outside the Boho Dance Have a fascination for me ...Nothing is capsulized in me On either side of town The streets were never really mine Not mine, not mine, these glamour gowns In my mind she treated life like a tasting party, sampling the experiences that she might have had interested in, but, left them behind because it was a nice place to visit, but she couldn't stay there. So her music/ lyrics reflects that constant searching and analyzing which 'don't seem to cease...' Much Joni ;-) Steve >>> Jamie Zubairi 2/16/2005 10:23:16 AM >>> I've always got the picture that she paints herself as a goody-goody back in those days. She always hung out with the kids from the wrong side of the tracks because they were the more interesting kids. When she went to visit them and hang out on 'the wrong side of the tracks' they always sent her home for looking goody-goody. Whether she liked it or not, that's what she was seen as because her community, her father owned a shop and had a place (whatever place it is) within that community. In interview she's mentioned (possibly twice) when she used to hang out with the interesting kids until she turned 17 or 18 when the drop-outs started getting into crime rather than working, as they saw no prospects of working, so she left their company. If that is not an example of a latent sense of morality, then I don't know. She paints herself as a party girl rather than a rebel, and always with a sense of properness. I don't know many rebels without causes who can sew, let alone sew their wedding dresses and those of their bridemaids. Remember, wanting to be seen as something, while actually being something else are two different things. When you're younger, you do want to fight your parents and your upbringing but when you f&ck up you go crawling to mama. And she f&cked-up big time (according to the WOHAM dvd it's claimed that Joni lost her virginity AND became pregnant at the same time, which doesn't sound like a girl who has had a lot of experience, or lived in a community that sexual encounter was the norm for young women of her age.) but she didn't run home to Mama. Obviously I have a lot of thinking time while I'm doing filing for the office at work. At least I can listen to music and think about Joni! Jerry, I hope that you're finding this conversation as stimulating and enjoyable as I am. I don't realise how much of Joni history I retain until a topic like this comes up. I've had this one with a friend of mine so I'm a little prepared. Much Joni - --- Jerry Notaro wrote: > > Ok, some women did raise their children as single > > mothers, but how many of those women came from a > rural > > area? > > But she was in Toronto by then, one of the most > liberal areas of North > America. The very reason she moved from the Prairie > Culture was to escape > it. All of her songs and interviews reflect her > desire to reject those > morals and escape the ideal of what her mother and > culture expected from > her. She paints herself as The Rebel Without a > Cause. Even in the Prairies, > Canada reflected a much more liberal way of life, > with free health care for > all, and a haven for American War resisters. > > Jerry > ___________________________________________________________ Does your mail provider give you a free online calendar? Yahoo! does. Get Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:01:50 -0500 From: Doug Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview I don't want to be too negative so I'll make a helpful suggestion. How about: Joni Mitchell Maybe Lies Just A Little Bit, Sometimes It's factual, and it tumbles off the tongue with truthfulness Doug Em wrote: >isn't there room for nonsense in the world? >Personally, I crave nonsense as it provides respite from reality. >So, I take it you doubt Clapton is God? >Em > >--- Doug wrote: > > > >>Maybe I used too strong a word. I was originally going to say >>"nonsense" >>but it didn't seem to express my true feelings. >>So, in deference to those who might have been offended, I'll revert >>to >>the original... NONSENSE IT IS!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:25:33 -0600 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview I don't like to lie But I sure can get phoney when I get scared I stick my nose up in the air Stoney, stoney, when I get scared... See Doug, even she admits to 'bending the truth...' Steve I just love Wild Things Run Fast! Whoo hoo! >>> Doug 2/16/2005 11:01:50 AM >>> I don't want to be too negative so I'll make a helpful suggestion. How about: Joni Mitchell Maybe Lies Just A Little Bit, Sometimes It's factual, and it tumbles off the tongue with truthfulness Doug Em wrote: >isn't there room for nonsense in the world? >Personally, I crave nonsense as it provides respite from reality. >So, I take it you doubt Clapton is God? >Em > >--- Doug wrote: > > > >>Maybe I used too strong a word. I was originally going to say >>"nonsense" >>but it didn't seem to express my true feelings. >>So, in deference to those who might have been offended, I'll revert >>to >>the original... NONSENSE IT IS!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:04:42 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview Hi Doug, yeah thats a great phrase if it pleases you! Actually, its been useful for me thinking about this. I didn't used to "get it" either...the JM Never Lies thing... but I think it may have been somewhere about maybe my 10th time through, listening to FTR that it occured to me what great truth Joni generates. For instsnce in "Banquet". TRUTH! and more truth and more truth... :) But of course generating great truth is not the same as never lieing. But one is a stronger slogan. Something to scrawl in a subway. Something to p_ss in the snow? So I am appreciative today of having been given the impetus (your comments) to sort through what JM Never Lies really means, to me. Em --- Doug wrote: > I don't want to be too negative so I'll make a helpful suggestion. > How > about: > > Joni Mitchell Maybe Lies Just A Little Bit, Sometimes > > It's factual, and it tumbles off the tongue with truthfulness > > Doug > > > Em wrote: > > >isn't there room for nonsense in the world? > >Personally, I crave nonsense as it provides respite from reality. > >So, I take it you doubt Clapton is God? > >Em > > > >--- Doug wrote: > > > > > > > >>Maybe I used too strong a word. I was originally going to say > >>"nonsense" > >>but it didn't seem to express my true feelings. > >>So, in deference to those who might have been offended, I'll revert > >>to > >>the original... NONSENSE IT IS!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:56:58 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: sjc? Joni bashers Doug wrote: In my experience it's more like one in a hundred. I have one friend (male) who was visibly upset at the mere mention of her name. (probably a sign of some deep psychological problems.) - -------------- I don't usually post (or think, for that matter) anything negative, but I've been repeatedly threatening a friend/colleague that I am going to turn her in to the Joni Police, and it now seems like the time is right. ************ This friend/colleague (let's call her Boopsie) phoned me one night and, after exchanging hellos, she said: "Oh my GAWD!!!!!! Is that JONI MITCHELL playing in the background?" I smiled inwardly and proudly said: "Yes!" Then Boopsie says: "GAWD, I feel myself going EPILEPTIC!" I shot back: "Boopsie!!!! That's NOT NICE!" Boopsie then spouted her worst venom of all: "Her voice is the Abu Ghraib of my MIND!" ************* Isn't that AWFUL? Shame on you, Boopsie!!!!! (You are getting a "bcc" of this, meine Freundin. The Joni Polizei will be hot on your trail!) Boopsie has many good qualities, but I believe she really does, like Doug's friend, have deep psychological problems. Ya just gotta feel really sorry for these people! With a wink and a smile, Patti ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:28:27 -0800 (PST) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview The phrase "Joni Mitchell Never Lies" is from the Janet Jackson/Q-Tip song that also samples BYT, for crying out loud. That's all it means to me. Jeez. Artist: Janet Jackson f/ Q-Tip, Joni MitchellAlbum: The Velvet RopeSong: Got 'Til It's GoneTyped by: OHHLA Webmaster DJ Flash[Janet] What's, what's the next song?[Q-Tip] The one about me[Janet] Ohh yeah? I like this song[Q-Tip] Uhh, what[Janet] Uhh, uhh[Q-Tip] What[Janet] Like Joni says[Joni Mitchell]Don't it always seem to gothat you don't know what you've got til it's... *DJ scratch*Don't it always seem to gothat you don't know what you've got til it's... *DJ scratch*Don't it always seem to gothat you don't know what you've got til it's... *DJ scratch*[Janet & Q-Tip] Uhh (ahh) uhh (ahh)[Joni Mitchell]*DJ scratch* That you don't know what you've got til it's gone[Janet]Have a feeling, now believing; that youwere the one I was meant to be withOh how I'm wishing; thinking dreamingbout you, and the loveHow'd I ever let you get away[Joni Mitchell]*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem[Q-Tip] Yeah yeah yeah[Joni Mitchell]*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem to gothat you don't know what you've got til it's...*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem to gothat you don't know what you've got til it's...*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem to gothat you don't know what you've got til it's...*DJ scratch*[Q-Tip] What? Joni Mitchell never lies*DJ scratch* that you don't know what you've got til it's gone[Janet]If I could turn back (yeah) the hands of time (mmm-hmm)Make you, fall in love, in love with me againSo would you give me, another chance, to loveTo love you, love you the right way, no games[Joni Mitchell]*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem[Q-Tip] Joni Mitchell never lies[Joni Mitchell]*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem to gothat you don't know what you've got til it's...*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem to gothat you don't know what you've got til it's...*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem to gothat you don't know what you've got til it's...*DJ scratch*[Q-Tip]One two, one two, yoLet me just fuck with it for a minute... what?(*DJ scratch* that you don't know what you've got til it's gone)Now you realizin when them nights go long, rightCampaign for me to stay when you know that I'm gone, rightYou act all wild, when I tell you to settleI was workin round the clock, but your girls want to meddle("I heard! Knahmsayin? I heard that you was on the beach...")Talk about I heard he swims with this chick on the beachThat was out with the tide, but my love you impeachNow you lookin at the walls, head in hands, cold jonezinRingin my house, hangin up and then posinNow why you wanna go and do dat love, huh?Now why you wanna go and do dat and do dat huh?(repeat 4X)[Joni Mitchell]*DJ scratch* Don't it always seem to gothat you don't know what you've got til it's...(repeat 3X)[Q-Tip] Joni Mitchell never lies*DJ scratch* That you don't know what you've got til it's gone[Q-Tip]Uh-uhh uhh, uh-uh, uh-uh uhhUh-uhh uhhh uhh uhh, uh uhYo yo, do you feel that, uhh uhh?*Janet laughing with Q-Tip*T-t-t-t-that you don't know what you've got til it's gone*DJ scratch**DJ scratch* That you don't know what you've got til it's gone Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:37:20 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview KEWL! who the f knew?? I guess everyone but moi... lol Em - --- Smurf wrote: > The phrase "Joni Mitchell Never Lies" is from the Janet Jackson/Q-Tip > song that also samples BYT, for crying out loud. > > That's all it means to me. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:50:32 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: Fresh Air interview Bobi says: > The phrase "Joni Mitchell Never Lies" is from the Janet Jackson/Q-Tip song > that also samples BYT, for crying out loud. > Maybe it's just a "wordage malfunction". Call the FCC!!! Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 13:55:23 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: "Joni Mitchell: Artist's Choice", 100% JC The guy who mastered the Artist's Choice disc, Maruice Gainen, mastered "Conversation Piece" by the Los Angeles Jazz Quartet for the Naxos Jazz label. His site, http://www.mauricegainen.com/reviews/rev_03.html has a reprint of a positive review of that disc from Stereophile Magazine. I haven't found a mention of "Joni Mitchell: Artist's Choice" on the Starbucks site or on jm.com yet. The Starbucks site doesn't return any hits on her name yet either. I'll say it: "The woman just doesn't get the respect she deserves." The local Starbucks is holding one for me. On the phone, I swear to God, they said, "They're flying off the shelves. I don't know if we have any left. Let me check." Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:54:03 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: sjc? Joni bashers Wow Patti. That disturbs me. mack np: Hall and Oates-Change of Season > Doug wrote: > > In my experience it's more like one in a hundred. I have one friend > (male) who was visibly upset at the mere mention of her name. > (probably a sign of some deep psychological problems.) > > -------------- > > I don't usually post (or think, for that matter) anything negative, but I've > been repeatedly threatening a friend/colleague that I am going to turn her > in to the Joni Police, and it now seems like the time is right. > > ************ > > This friend/colleague (let's call her Boopsie) phoned me one night and, > after exchanging hellos, she said: "Oh my GAWD!!!!!! Is that JONI MITCHELL > playing in the background?" > > I smiled inwardly and proudly said: "Yes!" > > Then Boopsie says: "GAWD, I feel myself going EPILEPTIC!" > > I shot back: "Boopsie!!!! That's NOT NICE!" > > Boopsie then spouted her worst venom of all: "Her voice is the Abu Ghraib > of my MIND!" > > ************* > > Isn't that AWFUL? Shame on you, Boopsie!!!!! (You are getting a "bcc" of > this, meine Freundin. The Joni Polizei will be hot on your trail!) > > Boopsie has many good qualities, but I believe she really does, like Doug's > friend, have deep psychological problems. > > Ya just gotta feel really sorry for these people! > > With a wink and a smile, > > Patti ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:42:17 -0800 (PST) From: mags h Subject: re: Joni's "choice" Jerry Notaro wrote, I am going to stray from what may be the majority voice, but it was clearly Joni's choice. Many women of this era raised children as a single mother, including someone in a very similar situation, Mary Travers. In fact Mary may well have risked more, having already achieved success. I wonder how much of Joni's obvious ambition played into her decision. Certainly her mother and father would have been able to raise Kilauren. It happened with many families, including my own. My closest cousin went to Puerto Rico in 1967 for 5 months with her mother. They came back with an "adopted" baby. My aunt raised her as her own. My cousin went on to medical school and became one of New York's outstanding OB/GYNs, eventually marrying her daughter's father, who became a successful attorney after law school, and had another daughter. There were choices to be made, even back then. and now me: **** I dont know how else to say this so here goes...Jerry, , please be careful when judging Joni (or anyone in similar circumstances) by saying she had a "choice" . ... I am most interested in what kind of "choice" Joni had. Joni said herself she didnt have a choice. If you listen to her stories about this sad and painful time, she said she felt she couldnt tell her parents...this WAS 1965 after all..and Joni has also alluded to the shame , blame and labelling that unwed Mums endured. Regardless of the fact that Joni lived in the "big city" of Toronto, there were many pressures on unwed Mums to "do the right thing". Yea, sometimes, surrendering a child to adoption is "the right thing" but it's not that cut and dry, not that easy, never every easy. What the heck kind of choice is it to have to give up your own flesh and blood first and only born baby because you dont have the money/support/ in any way shape or form. ANd yea, the lucky ones got to keep and raise their babies, but that's not the situation for everyone. choice? hardly. Mags, who has been there done that, and could write a dissertation all about that kind of "choice". (dang, i hate getting all personal and sensitive about this ; sorry. Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:52:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald A. Notaro" Subject: re: Joni's 'choice' Painful, yes. Some choices are. I saw the pain my mother went through when she chose abortion for her final pregnancy after already having five. But she had a choice. That is why we call it Pro Choice. I didnt judge my mother, and Im not judging Joni. Im just saying there were choices. Joni herself said, We called it Free Love. We learned nothing was free. Jerry mags h said: > Jerry Notaro wrote, > > > I am going to stray from what may be the majority voice, but it was > clearly > Joni's choice. Many women of this era raised children as a single > mother, > including someone in a very similar situation, Mary Travers. In fact > Mary > may well have risked more, having already achieved success. I wonder > how > much of Joni's obvious ambition played into her decision. Certainly her > mother and father would have been able to raise Kilauren. It happened > with > many families, including my own. My closest cousin went to Puerto Rico > in > 1967 for 5 months with her mother. They came back with an "adopted" > baby. My > aunt raised her as her own. My cousin went on to medical school and > became > one of New York's outstanding OB/GYNs, eventually marrying her > daughter's > father, who became a successful attorney after law school, and had > another > daughter. There were choices to be made, even back then. > > > and now me: > > **** I dont know how else to say this so here goes...Jerry, , please be > careful when judging Joni (or anyone in similar circumstances) by saying > she had a "choice" . ... I am most interested in what kind of "choice" > Joni had. Joni said herself she didnt have a choice. > > If you listen to her stories about this sad and painful time, she said she > felt she couldnt tell her parents...this WAS 1965 after all..and Joni has > also alluded to the shame , blame and labelling that unwed Mums endured. > Regardless of the fact that Joni lived in the "big city" of Toronto, there > were many pressures on unwed Mums to "do the right thing". Yea, sometimes, > surrendering a child to adoption is "the right thing" but it's not that > cut and dry, not that easy, never every easy. What the heck kind of choice > is it to have to give up your own flesh and blood first and only born baby > because you dont have the money/support/ in any way shape or form. ANd > yea, the lucky ones got to keep and raise their babies, but that's not the > situation for everyone. > > choice? hardly. > > Mags, who has been there done that, and could write a dissertation all > about that kind of "choice". > > (dang, i hate getting all personal and sensitive about this ; sorry. > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:09:41 EST From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: sjc? Joni bashers >Then Boopsie says: "GAWD, I feel myself going EPILEPTIC!" After the Joni-cops are done with her, let's turn her over to the WORD USAGE agents, Patti. They're of the same ilk that did Rodney King. Abu Ghraib hath no fury. Already, I feel her pain. :-) Surely, what Boops meant to say is that she was going APOPLECTIC: affected with, inclined to, or showing symptoms of APOPLEXY: to cripple by a sudden stroke; sudden diminution or loss of consciousness, sensation, and voluntary motion caused by rupture or obstruction of an artery of the brain. And the only known cure is "The Fiddle and the Drum" on a continuous loop, 24/7 via inner-ear microphone. Better get her therapy started right away... - -Julius In a message dated 2/16/05 10:14:43 AM, loveuconn@hotmail.com writes: > I don't usually post (or think, for that matter) anything negative, but > I've > been repeatedly threatening a friend/colleague that I am going to turn her > in to the Joni Police, and it now seems like the time is right. > > ************ > > This friend/colleague (let's call her Boopsie) phoned me one night and, > after exchanging hellos, she said: "Oh my GAWD!!!!!! Is that JONI MITCHELL > playing in the background?" > > I smiled inwardly and proudly said: "Yes!" ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #49 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)