From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #25 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, January 26 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 025 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JOTMAS on Travelogue [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] jonifest ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: JOTMAS on Travelogue [Em ] Re: JOTMAS on Travelogue [Jamie Zubairi ] Re: JOTMAS on Travelogue [Em ] Travelogue ["David Henderson" ] Re: Peeling back another layer? ["Steven Polifka" ] Re: Albums that grew on you [Garret ] RE: Albums that grew on you ["Bree Mcdonough" ] RE: Peeling back another layer? ["Richard Flynn" ] [none] [Alain Vande Putte ] Re: Albums that grew on you [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Peeling back another layer? ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Peeling back another layer? [Randy Remote ] Re: Albums that grew on you [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Joni on Time December, 1974 [Mike Friedman ] Re: Peeling back another layer? [colin ] Joni tune heard on CBC 50 tracks today ["Michael O'Malley" ] cliches? ["David Henderson" ] RE: Peeling back another layer? [Catherine McKay ] Re: cliches? [Mike Friedman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:50:03 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: JOTMAS on Travelogue **Can someone tell me; are all the cuts on T'log so good? or are they only as good as the original song? I suppose I'm not really fit to answer the question as I think JOTMAS was lessened in its T'log arrangement. Loved the FTR version, and it's all so clear and defined. On T'log it just sounds sloppy and most of the rhythm that drives the pace of the song is missing. That being said, I have learned to like most of T'log - the key for me is listening to it in a huge mix. I have both discs ripped to my hard drive, and when a T'log song comes on (out of about 600 hours of tunes on there so far) I enjoy it. But listening to a whole disc all the way through? No way - it's like a visit from relatives; one is OK, two is bearable, but any more than that and you can't wait for them to get the hell out of your house. Bob NP: They Might Be Giants, "Hello Radio" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:10:30 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: jonifest >Jonifest is wherever two are more are gathered in her >name. Loved that Catherine. _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 04:30:39 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: JOTMAS on Travelogue - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > But listening to a whole disc all the way through? No way > - it's > like a visit from relatives; one is OK, two is bearable, but any > more than > that and you can't wait for them to get the hell out of your house. Thanks for your candid answer, Bob. I think I understand. I also (moreso) adore the FTR version, but for some reason, when I played the T'log one by accident it sounded somehow, I dunno, soulful or something and very appropriate being sung by the somewhat weary and decimated-voiced Joni. It just put a new spin on it. thx Em ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:02:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Jamie Zubairi Subject: Re: JOTMAS on Travelogue --- Em wrote: > Can someone tell me; are all the cuts on T'log so > good? or are they > only as good as the original song? > Does some stuff come alive on here that really > doesn't hold water in > any earlier verison? Hi Em! That depends on what do you mean by 'come alive'. To me the majority of the songs on T'log have been given a new life for Joni to sing (if only she would!!!!) - you can see what she meant by her 'writing songs to grow into' and not singing 'ingenue role' songs. I love the darker songs on T'log like JOTMAS and T2ndC - - sorry that should be The Second Coming! - The Last Time I Saw Richard, Sire Of Sorrow (Job's Sad Song) et al are brilliantly executed by the older more mature voice. Amelia, Hejira and ROTR are just tear-jerkers in my opinion, in terms of content and arrangement and just the way she nails them. The slight disappointments are Trouble Child in terms of voice and too grand an arrangement , but that's just my opinion. Otis and Marlena, Be Cool, Love, GMBABM, Sex Kills, The Dawntreader, For The Roses are rare gems which really gain from the expansive arrangement and the landscapes that the music create in tandem with the voice. Can you tell I love this album? Woodstock, The Circle Game lose something in translation but only in terms of overplay from the other versions so it's not without it's faults... My only problem with it is that I can't play it loud often enough... I need to live in the middle of a field with no neighbours or housemates! Much Joni Jamie Zoob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:21:42 -0800 (PST) From: Em Subject: Re: JOTMAS on Travelogue Huh! now that's interesting for me that you have that opinion. Maybe I will have to aquire it after all. Thanks for the input - that was very informative, and your opinion means something to me, based on stuff you've written in the past. One thing, the orchestra sounds good coming out of my speakers, and thats always a plus. Just happens to sound good on my not always so great stereo system. I'm like, sub woofer..I don't need no stinkin sub woofer! lol... Em :) - --- Jamie Zubairi wrote: > That depends on what do you mean by 'come alive'. To > me the majority of the songs on T'log have been given > a new life for Joni to sing (if only she would!!!!) - > you can see what she meant by her 'writing songs to > grow into' and not singing 'ingenue role' songs. > > I love the darker songs on T'log like JOTMAS and T2ndC > - sorry that should be The Second Coming! - The Last > Time I Saw Richard, Sire Of Sorrow (Job's Sad Song) et > al are brilliantly executed by the older more mature > voice. > > Amelia, Hejira and ROTR are just tear-jerkers in my > opinion, in terms of content and arrangement and just > the way she nails them. The slight disappointments are > Trouble Child in terms of voice and too grand an > arrangement , but that's just my opinion. > > Otis and Marlena, Be Cool, Love, GMBABM, Sex Kills, > The Dawntreader, For The Roses are rare gems which > really gain from the expansive arrangement and the > landscapes that the music create in tandem with the > voice. > > Can you tell I love this album? Woodstock, The Circle > Game lose something in translation but only in terms > of overplay from the other versions so it's not > without it's faults... My only problem with it is that > I can't play it loud often enough... I need to live in > the middle of a field with no neighbours or > housemates! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:24:33 -0500 From: "David Henderson" Subject: Travelogue Catherine said >>>> I think the t'log versions of "Flat tires" and "Be cool" are far superior to the original versions. There are others that I think are equal but different, most notably "God must be a boogie man", which is fun on both T and Ming. T songs I always skip over are "Woodstock", "The Circle Game" and "For the roses" which just take TOO LONG to get there, imo; anyway, how many versions "Woodstock" or "Circle Game" is anyone prepared to listen to? ME? Not many! <<<< I agree with Catherine - Flat Tires and Be Cool are much more interesting than the originals and Hejira is priceless as I mentioned earlier (IMHO) and I think Trouble Child is very much enhanced. I think Travelogue has at least 5 or 6 excellent cuts. I wasn't completely sure I'd like this one either, so I listened to on Rhapsody, and then just bought the cuts I liked. That's how I buy most everything the last few years. Why spend the money on a whole CD until you've listened to it, right? Have a beautiful day, David NP Jamie Cullum (such positive energy if you like a little jazz/pop and a sexy, British voice) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:04:10 -0600 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Re: Peeling back another layer? What is the crap about DED? Why do you folks get your underwear in knots over this? She wasn't boo-hooing? She didn't have heartache so you couldn't relate? She had heartache, alright. Just listen. It was about religion, government, big business, the general population's cavalier attitude about the planet. And she was pissed off. Anger just covers up a lot of sadness. She called it as she saw it, and in my book, she was very prophetic. I could play that album today and the shoe would still fit. Quite amazing! So what if her synth sounds are a bit dated. Put on Ethiopia tonight as you look out at winter's barren trees, imagine the snow as sand and see if you don't shed a tear for the planet... Steve >>> "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" 1/24/2005 9:03:29 PM >>> Catherine, "I think I understand." You're saying that BLUE was a glittering gift, but when she gave us DOG EAT DOG, she "laid an egg". Lama np: a light-bluegrass version of Stephanie Nicks' "Landslide" on our singer-songwriter radio station, WNKU. Catherine said, >Have you heard about the goose that laid the golden egg? That's what she's talking about. Will the next egg be golden, or will it just be... and egg? Will the next song you write be a hit and make lots of money for the record company, or will it be a dud?> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:45:42 +0000 From: Garret Subject: Re: Albums that grew on you That's interesting as Blue seems to be the one that people get. I loved it immediately, with the exception of Richard which i took as self-indulgent, tune-less dirge. It took me a couple of years to come round, and now i can't get enough of it. It is a perfect cap, intimate, to a well conceived album. Which is Joni's biggest selling album? Is it blue? C & S? Not that that necessarily says too much. GARRET NP- Nina Simone, Mississippi goddamn Quoting Deb Messling : > Unbelievably, I hated Blue when I first heard it. > > Well, after a couple of weeks of doggedly playing it, I fell in love, > permanently. > > > > At 10:55 AM 1/24/2005, you wrote: > >Did anyone else find that the Joni albums they liked least on first > >hearing are the ones they grew to love the most? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Deb Messling -^..^- > messling@enter.net > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:37:51 -0500 From: "Bree Mcdonough" Subject: RE: Albums that grew on you Hi all...and hopefully everyone that's feeling the blues..hang in there..good things are bound to come.. I was a late bloomer to Joni's music...twenty-one or so..on first hearing DJRD I sort of pretended to like it. I had gotten it for a Christmas present from my one of my sister's. DJRD was on my Christmas list so besides the fact it was siquomb herself ..I felt because it was a gift I had to like it..love it even. It was really until the last few years that I grew to LOVE IT. It's kind of like the intelligent/The Intellitouch guitar tuner which "feels" the vibration of the strings...I hadn't felt DJRD. Now I am in love and DJRD.. ranks maybe second behind Hejira. That's how I feel today and as it happens here ..the rank could change in the next hour. Bree >Unbelievably, I hated Blue when I first heard it. I discovered Joni when I >was only 13, and a young 13 at that, and I really loved Joni's "magic >princess trip" and the fact that she seemed so ethereal and otherworldly. >Blue was a big chunk of reality that I was too young to understand. I felt >betrayed by what I perceived as the cynicism of some of the lyrics, as well >as the change in her singing style and in what I heard as the rambling >melodies. > >Well, after a couple of weeks of doggedly playing it, I fell in love, >permanently. > > > >At 10:55 AM 1/24/2005, you wrote: >>Did anyone else find that the Joni albums they liked least on first >>hearing are the ones they grew to love the most? > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Deb Messling -^..^- >messling@enter.net >---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:40:10 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Her Highness Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2005 #33 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:28:17 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Peeling back another layer? Even though I had / have most of the same political positions as Joni, the songs on DED are full of clichis and not exactly sophisticated political analysis--even for pop songs. I often cringe with embarrassment listening to, the way I cringe when I hear Joni protest that she's no feminist in interviews. Coupled with the ill-chosen guest stars and synth-pop arrangements it's just not that good: I can almost hear Joni respond indignantly: "You say 'You're naive!'" I reply, lyrics like this aren't up to your highest standards: "Elusive dreams and vague desires Fanned to fiery needs by deadly deeds" OR "On and on stupidity On and on the basic needs are defiled" (How does one defile needs, anyway?) OR this: "The moon was bright Like day for night And I thought of you I thought of you Dreamer No acid rain Love without pain Impossible Impossible Dreamer" On the other hand, I really like "The Three Great Stimulants." Richard - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Steven Polifka Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:04 AM To: jlamadoo@fuse.net Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Peeling back another layer? What is the crap about DED? Why do you folks get your underwear in knots over this? She wasn't boo-hooing? She didn't have heartache so you couldn't relate? She had heartache, alright. Just listen. It was about religion, government, big business, the general population's cavalier attitude about the planet. And she was pissed off. Anger just covers up a lot of sadness. She called it as she saw it, and in my book, she was very prophetic. I could play that album today and the shoe would still fit. Quite amazing! So what if her synth sounds are a bit dated. Put on Ethiopia tonight as you look out at winter's barren trees, imagine the snow as sand and see if you don't shed a tear for the planet... Steve >>> "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" 1/24/2005 9:03:29 PM >>> Catherine, "I think I understand." You're saying that BLUE was a glittering gift, but when she gave us DOG EAT DOG, she "laid an egg". Lama np: a light-bluegrass version of Stephanie Nicks' "Landslide" on our singer-songwriter radio station, WNKU. Catherine said, >Have you heard about the goose that laid the golden egg? That's what she's talking about. Will the next egg be golden, or will it just be... and egg? Will the next song you write be a hit and make lots of money for the record company, or will it be a dud?> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:59:27 +0200 From: Alain Vande Putte Subject: [none] Hi! I'm a Belgian songwriter and I've been asked by one of our leading theatre performers/singers to come up with a translation of 'Both Sides Now'. I've done most of the lyrics but am in doubt about the meaning of the last verse (From' Tears and fears...' to '...living every day'). Anyone who is able to shed a light on this subject, you can email me at alain.vande.putte@skynet.be The more specific your analysis/interpretation the better. Thanks, Alain ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:37:58 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Albums that grew on you > That's interesting as Blue seems to be the one that people get. I loved it > immediately, with the exception of Richard which i took as self-indulgent, > tune-less dirge. It took me a couple of years to come round, and now i can't > get enough of it. It is a perfect cap, intimate, to a well conceived album. That is what amazes me about this list. It is much more diverse than we think. The First Time I heard Richard ( :)) I was floored. It still floors me. It never needed to grow on me. And yet some people took to Mingus, or DJRD immediately. Someone wrote it took them time to get into For the Roses, which blew me away upon first hearing it and remains my favorite Joni album. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:55:29 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Peeling back another layer? Steve, I was only teasing so I could make a pun out of "laid an egg". I like DOG EAT DOG. I've been writing that the DED on THE COMPLETE GEFFEN RECORDINGS reveals her true intent. All of the layers make sense when you can FINALLY hear them. Lama Steven Polifka wrote: > >What is the crap about DED? > Put on Ethiopia tonight as you look out at winter's barren > trees, imagine the snow as sand and see if you don't shed a tear for > the planet.> > > <>>>> "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" 1/24/2005 9:03:29 PM >>> > You're saying that BLUE was a glittering gift, but when she gave us DOG > EAT DOG, she "laid an egg".>>> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:13:35 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: Peeling back another layer? Richard Flynn wrote: ... lyrics like this aren't up to your highest standards: "Elusive dreams and vague desires Fanned to fiery needs by deadly deeds" Here's my 2 cents. I guess you know she's saying no one NEEDS a candy bar but through advertising, they try to elevate a vague desire to seem like a genuine need. It's a bit wordy but I like that. I like that Joni is among a small handful of people who can "pull off" the trick of using "elusive" in a song. It's the opposite of the "enlightened farmer" school of lyric writing. ("I can't get no satisfaction". "Songs she sang to me / songs she brang to me.") >Richard Flynn wrote: ... "On and on stupidity >On and on the basic needs are defiled" > >(How does one defile needs, anyway?) > > Now Lama again. Right after the lines you quote she lists the basic needs that they lack: "good water" etc. The basic need for clean water has been subverted. Since one of the meanings for "defile" is "to corrupt the purity", I think it's grammatically correct. I like that she uses some literate text. All the best, Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:53:32 -0600 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: RE: Peeling back another layer? Now about those lyrics in Fiction: They sound like most ads- quick quips or catchy phrases with no substance. Perfect. She uses what she hears and relays it back. Then she weighs out (percieved) truth against (percieved) fiction. What is what? She left it to the listener to decide. And on Impossible Dreamer... Impossibley cryptic. However, day-for-night is a Hollywood term. They shoot a scene in the day and use filters to darken it to give the appearance of night. Just who was she singing to in that verse that she would use that reference, or was that evening so surreal that it reminded her of a movie? Now, was DED written about Bush? Was she THAT prophetic??? :-P Steve >>> "Richard Flynn" 1/25/2005 10:28:17 AM >>> Even though I had / have most of the same political positions as Joni, the songs on DED are full of clichis and not exactly sophisticated political analysis--even for pop songs. I often cringe with embarrassment listening to, the way I cringe when I hear Joni protest that she's no feminist in interviews. Coupled with the ill-chosen guest stars and synth-pop arrangements it's just not that good: I can almost hear Joni respond indignantly: "You say 'You're naive!'" I reply, lyrics like this aren't up to your highest standards: "Elusive dreams and vague desires Fanned to fiery needs by deadly deeds" OR "On and on stupidity On and on the basic needs are defiled" (How does one defile needs, anyway?) OR this: "The moon was bright Like day for night And I thought of you I thought of you Dreamer No acid rain Love without pain Impossible Impossible Dreamer" On the other hand, I really like "The Three Great Stimulants." Richard - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com] On Behalf Of Steven Polifka Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:04 AM To: jlamadoo@fuse.net Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Peeling back another layer? What is the crap about DED? Why do you folks get your underwear in knots over this? She wasn't boo-hooing? She didn't have heartache so you couldn't relate? She had heartache, alright. Just listen. It was about religion, government, big business, the general population's cavalier attitude about the planet. And she was pissed off. Anger just covers up a lot of sadness. She called it as she saw it, and in my book, she was very prophetic. I could play that album today and the shoe would still fit. Quite amazing! So what if her synth sounds are a bit dated. Put on Ethiopia tonight as you look out at winter's barren trees, imagine the snow as sand and see if you don't shed a tear for the planet... Steve >>> "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" 1/24/2005 9:03:29 PM >>> Catherine, "I think I understand." You're saying that BLUE was a glittering gift, but when she gave us DOG EAT DOG, she "laid an egg". Lama np: a light-bluegrass version of Stephanie Nicks' "Landslide" on our singer-songwriter radio station, WNKU. Catherine said, >Have you heard about the goose that laid the golden egg? That's what she's talking about. Will the next egg be golden, or will it just be... and egg? Will the next song you write be a hit and make lots of money for the record company, or will it be a dud?> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:34:28 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Peeling back another layer? Steven Polifka wrote: > Now, was DED written about Bush? Was she THAT prophetic??? > :-P Bush, Reagan, what's the difference? Same puppeteers, different puppet. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:58:50 -0500 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Albums that grew on you > With HISSING, I finally "got" it during my summer of pot smoking before my > senior year in college. > Pot helped me finally get a lot of artists of that ere that I didn't before, like Jefferson Airplane, The Who, and Led Zeppelin. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:12:26 -0800 From: Mike Friedman Subject: Re: Joni on Time December, 1974 It's actually a really bad Peter Max ripoff...Joan does not look good with a hot pink face... On Jan 24, 2005, at 9:45 AM, Smurf wrote: > Can't you just see some 70s TIme editor, most likely > smoking a cigarette, saying, "I want somebody hip, > somebody *now* to illustrate this cover with that > jazzy hippie Joni chick. You know, someone like Peter > Max." > > What struck me before the artwork itself was the > colors! Talk about 70s. > > --Smurf, who actually remembers the oranges and pinks > of the 70s better than the greys and beiges of the 90s > > > --- Catherine McKay wrote: > >> --- Smurf wrote: >>> >> > http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101741216,00.html >>> >>> Heaven knows I loved her 30 years ago. >>> >>> --Smurf, enjoying a SNOW DAY! >>> >> >> If that isn't 70s artwork, then I don't know what >> it. >> >> ... NOT enjoying a snow day - I prefer a no-snow day >> - >> but dammit, it's snowing AGAIN. Enough, already! >> >> However, I am enjoying a >> not-really-sick-but-didn't-want-to-go-to-work day. >> >> >> ===== >> Catherine >> Toronto >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ______________________________________________________________________ >> >> Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca >> > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > > ========================================= "I'm porous with travel fever, but you know I'm so glad to be on my own. Still somehow the slightest touch of a stranger can set up trembling in my bones. I know, no one's gonna show me everything, we all come and go alone. Each so deep and superficial, between the forceps and the stone." - --Joni Mitchell, "Hejira", 1976 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:43:57 EST From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: jonifest A woman in waiting for her woman wrote: >Jonifest is wherever two are more are gathered in her >name. Loved that Catherine. Hi Woman, You ought to love it because your house is a pretty much a constant jonifest by this definition. I think you two should petition your city to change the name of your street to Sisotowbell Lane. It fits the atmosphere much better than the current name, and we need a "real" street named that so it doesn't just have to be an acronym. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:02:27 -0500 From: Doug Subject: Travelogue Well well well, What to say about travelogue. My wife just bought it for me for Xmas after the 8 or 9th hint. I think most of it sounds great. Some of the songs (like Circle Game) sound a bit fresh, especially slowed down. It sounds a bit more sensitive and lush. I don't understand Sex Kills very much. It sounds too much like the original to me. I think there would have been so many other songs that would have been good candidates. I also must add how much I love her voice as it has aged. She sounds like an old jazz singer, and sings like one too. The more I hear it, the more I like it. Amelia melts me. As does a few others. I think this is my 3rd post Who cares??? ta ta ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:06:01 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: Peeling back another layer? Steven Polifka wrote: >What is the crap about DED? Why do you folks get your underwear in knots >over this? >She wasn't boo-hooing? She didn't have heartache so you couldn't >relate? > >She had heartache, alright. Just listen. It was about religion, >government, big business, >the general population's cavalier attitude about the planet. And she >was pissed off. >Anger just covers up a lot of sadness. > > > I agree with you Steven. I think DED is a great album and one where she shows she can think and feel for something other than herself. I love her music, as you know, but have never understood why she is considered so deep and meaningful when she sings mostly of her personal pain. It's not as if no one else has felt this and she isn't unique in writing about it. One could even say she was just self indulgent and made prententiousness a new art form and fooled people into thinking it was somehow deep and soulful and new. Yes she has a way with words, even if their meaning is often lost, but her feelings and experience are hardly unique. Her music on the other is something diffrent, groundbreaking and unique and for that she is celebrated, rightly so. - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 03:22:36 +0000 From: "Michael O'Malley" Subject: Joni tune heard on CBC 50 tracks today Great news, a Joni tune from the 60's showed up on CBC's 50 tracks today! Lorraine Segato, former lead singer of the 80's band, Parachute Club (anyone remember that 80's anthem, Rise Up?), put forth BSN as an essential track candidate. Basically she built her case around the fact that it's a classic, has been covererd X times, simple production values, open tuning, brilliant lyrics, stark honesty. We were treated to the Clouds version. There was dissention however. Another panelist, music critic John Einerson, felt BSN was the wrong pick for an essential 60's Joni track, he called it ``light fluff (!)`` in comparison to Circle Game, which he felt was the more relevant track for the 60's. Segato came back with a rebuttal. So BSN is probably going to be our token Joni song on this list. A no-brainer, to be sure. The host asked for listener feedback about which song is the better candidate, but he's leaning toward BSN, me thinks. You can catch it here. http://www.cbc.ca/50tracks/index.html Cheers! Michael in Quebec _________________________________________________________________ Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has to offer. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN. Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:30:56 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Albums that grew on you --- Garret wrote: > That's interesting as Blue seems to be the one that > people get. I loved it > immediately, with the exception of Richard which i > took as self-indulgent, > tune-less dirge. Dirge? have you been talking to my mother (beyond the grave)? She thought all of Joni's songs were dirges. OK, back to your regular discussion now. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:36:02 -0500 From: "David Henderson" Subject: cliches? >>>> From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Peeling back another layer? >Even though I had / have most of the same political positions as Joni, the >songs on DED are full of clichis and not exactly sophisticated political >analysis--even for pop songs. I often cringe with embarrassment listening >to, the way I cringe when I hear Joni protest that she's no feminist in >interviews. Coupled with the ill-chosen guest stars and synth-pop >arrangements it's just not that good: <<<<<< That's pretty harsh, guy, and I completely disagree. I don't think Joni's political positions and the way she expressed them were cliches or unsophisticated at the time, in 1985. They may be a little dated now. Who else, with such a broad reach, was tackling these issues in the mid-80's and with such intelligence? Yes, it was the year of We Are The World. But it was also the year of Back to the Future, Frankie Goes To Hollywood, and Family Ties, and a year after Reagan's reelection. I think she should be commended for bringing these issues to the fore. I don't think the issues of money and religion, white collar crime, and the subliminal effect advertising has on our values were as commonly discussed or acknowledged back then. I think Ethiopia, Dog Eat Dog and The Three Great Stimulants deliver haunting and powerful messages and great music. Good Friends and Shiny Toys rock! We don't get to rock out with Joni enough! I'll get off my soapbox now. David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 23:11:11 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: Peeling back another layer? --- Steven Polifka wrote: > Now about those lyrics in Fiction: > They sound like most ads- quick quips or catchy > phrases with no > substance. > Perfect. She uses what she hears and relays it back. > Then she weighs > out (percieved) truth against (percieved) fiction. > What is what? She > left it to the listener to decide. > > And on Impossible Dreamer... Impossibley cryptic. > However, > day-for-night is a Hollywood term. They shoot a > scene in the day and use > filters to darken it to give the appearance of > night. Just who was she > singing to in that verse that she would use that > reference, or was > that evening so surreal that it reminded her of a > movie? To me, DED was stripped down lyrically, deliberately. It was a reaction to the materialism of the 80s, so gone was the lyrical poetry of previous albums. The music is mostly harsh-sounding and the words Joni uses are harsh too, with a lot of one-syllable words and harsher consonants and a lot of staccato both in the music and her delivery of the words. "Impossible dreamer" is airy, both musically and lyrically - it feels like there's a lot of space between the words, maybe because we're more used to Joni packing in a lot of lyrics in a small space. It's not for nothing that it's the second last song in the album and it's the bridge between the harshness of the songs before it and the final song, "Lucky girl" which, like the opening song, "Good friends" is optimistic. It continues and synthesizes the harsh imagery of consumerism vs the starving masses, but lifts up from there to the positive image of the impossible dreamer seen in a blink in the darkest part of the night and in the brightest part of the day. An artist can paint with many layers of thick oil paint, using huge brushes, palette (sp?) knives and all that, or can do a simple line drawing with pencil or marker, and I think that's what Joni was doing with DED. Just something that occurred to me now. "Impossible dreamer" conjures both John Lennon and Martin Luther King. And you know there may be more... ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:52:35 -0800 From: Mike Friedman Subject: Re: cliches? "Shiny toys.... I LOVE MY PORSCHE!" That never fails to crack me up. On Jan 25, 2005, at 7:36 PM, David Henderson wrote: >>>>> From: "Richard Flynn" > Subject: RE: Peeling back another layer? > >> Even though I had / have most of the same political positions as >> Joni, the >> songs on DED are full of clichis and not exactly sophisticated >> political >> analysis--even for pop songs. I often cringe with embarrassment >> listening >> to, the way I cringe when I hear Joni protest that she's no feminist >> in >> interviews. Coupled with the ill-chosen guest stars and synth-pop >> arrangements it's just not that good: <<<<<< > > That's pretty harsh, guy, and I completely disagree. I don't think > Joni's > political positions and the way she expressed them were cliches or > unsophisticated at the time, in 1985. They may be a little dated now. > Who > else, with such a broad reach, was tackling these issues in the > mid-80's and > with such intelligence? Yes, it was the year of We Are The World. But > it > was also the year of Back to the Future, Frankie Goes To Hollywood, and > Family Ties, and a year after Reagan's reelection. I think she should > be > commended for bringing these issues to the fore. I don't think the > issues > of money and religion, white collar crime, and the subliminal effect > advertising has on our values were as commonly discussed or > acknowledged > back then. > > I think Ethiopia, Dog Eat Dog and The Three Great Stimulants deliver > haunting and powerful messages and great music. Good Friends and > Shiny Toys > rock! We don't get to rock out with Joni enough! > > I'll get off my soapbox now. > > David > > ======================================== "I was not always a bag lady, you know. I used to be a creative consultant. For big companies! Who do you think thought up the color scheme for Howard Johnson's? At the time, no one was using orange and aqua in the same room together. With fried clams." - --Trudy (Lily Tomlin) from "The Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe" Mike Friedman San Francisco, CA ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #25 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)