From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #22 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, January 23 2005 Volume 2005 : Number 022 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- re: John Gorka ["Kate Bennett" ] My New Theatre Production Link (No Mitchell Post) [Nuriel Tobias ] Snakes & Ladders 2002 to 2004 [John Sprackland ] Re: JMDL Digest V2005 #27 minnie ripperton [Chorando6@aol.com] Joni's videos [Reuben Bell ] Re: Snakes & Ladders 2002 to 2004 [John Sprackland ] Re: Just ice, and cakes out in the snow... (sjc) [Justalittlebreen@aol.co] appearances (and how they can be deceiving) ["Mark or Travis" ] Of Mingus and WTRF [Justalittlebreen@aol.com] Re: Travelogue [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Of Mingus and WTRF ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: appearances (and how they can be deceiving) [Catherine McKay ] Re: Sisotowbell [Bobsart48@aol.com] Vote Mingus! ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Mo' Mingus [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: appearances (and how they can be deceiving) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re:Joni's place on the CBC 50-Track List ["Michael O'Malley" Subject: re: John Gorka >I don't sing or write much anymore. My voice has deteriorated even more than Joni's. I've often wondered about this. I have a theory that Joni's voice would have changed dramatically, even if she didn't smoke. My voice was quite like hers. People used to remark on it whenever I sang. But now, it's just not 'pretty' anymore. Another of my favorite singers (my favorite, in fact, until I heard Joni) was Julie Andrews. I always thought her voice had a similar timbre and clarity. "Flute-y." And she can no longer sing. So, I wonder if there's something about the structure of similar vocal chords that doesn't fare well over time.< has this happened recently anne because I remember you singing beautifully a few years back... maybe you are right about some kind of vocal chords deterioriting... however I do think it is rare for anyone's voice to remain the same quality as when younger & that it would be as frustrating & impossible to try to remain singing the same way as it would to still fit into our teenage clothes... a woman's voice is known to lower when she reaches 30 years old & I suspect that this keeps on changing over the years, along with everything else about us physically, & so we have to learn to adjust our singing to fit our ever changing new voice (key, timbre, etc) just as we do with so many things about ourselves as we age... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:01:05 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: My New Theatre Production Link (No Mitchell Post) http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:EXTSWjvYM24J:www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite%3Fpagename%3DJPost/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid%3D1106191073177%26p%3D1077768895041+nuriel+tobias&hl=en Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:20:59 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell, 100% JC Hi To One and All:) Just wanted to add that a she-friend of mine told me once that "Barngrill" is JAZZ. Take Care, Nuri "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: Good idea. I think Joni Mitchell is an amazing songwriter. Her facility with words puts her in a class of two. Joni & Bob Dylan stand head-and-shoulders above everyone else as story-tellers. Besides what Dylan could do, Joni sang as well as she wrote. Unlike most of her peers, she hired some of the coolest jazz players of her generation. From "Ladies Of The Canyon" onward, she had an unbroken string of 12 amazing albums, a feat not equaled by any solo Beatle. Any band that produced this much high quality material would be very highly regarded indeed. The fact that she wrote almost all of it & produced or co-produced all of it makes Joni a living miracle. I still think this wannabe "critic" had it right: http://www.jonimitchell.com/Duality.html Lama PS, She's no slouch as a visual artist either. How much time have you spent staring at the cover of "The Hissing of Summer Lawns"? Mark in Sydney said, >Does anyone know of another discussion list that actually discusses Joni Mitchell?> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:34:29 +0000 From: John Sprackland Subject: Snakes & Ladders 2002 to 2004 Ways to fill your time when you're off work sick... After mentions of the song and album polls in my recent postings, I got more curious. I know I'm weird but I find a dose of basic statistics very therapeutic... I've looked at the changes in songs rankings on the poll from 2002 to 2004 to see which songs have grown in our affections ('Ladders') and which have fallen from favour ('Snakes'). LADDERS 1. MICHAEL FROM MOUNTAINS. up 50 places to number 43. 2. I HAD A KING. up 48 places to number 51. 3. SIRE OF SORROW. up 43 places to number 14. 4. BLUE MOTEL ROOM. up 41 places to number 57. 5. NOT TO BLAME. up 41 places to number 91. 6. STAY IN TOUCH. up 40 places to 110. 7. YOU DREAM FLAT TIRES. up 40 places to number 123. 8. ETHIOPIA up 38 places to number 128. 9. PASSION PLAY. up 37 places to number 40. 10. TWISTED. up 33 places to number 74. Curious that two songs from longest ago are the top two climbers from 2002 to 2004 - any theories? SNAKES 1. LOVE PUTS ON A NEW FACE. down 78 places to number 163. 2. LOVE OR MONEY. down 61 places to number 174 (last place with zero votes in 2004!) 3. SHADES OF SCARLET CONQUERING. down 58 places to number 101. 4. JUDGEMENT OF MOON & STARS. down 53 places to number 60. 5. BANQUET. down 42 places to number 78. 6. HOW DO YOU STOP. down 39 places to number 93. 7. AT LAST. down 37 places to number 148. 8. THE CRAZY CRIES OF LOVE. down 32 places to number 136. 9. LESSON IN SURVIVAL. down 31 places to number 50. 10. THE SILKY VEILS OF ARDOR. down 31 places to number 90. I was most struck by the fall in favour of JUDGEMENT OF MOON AND STARS which plummeted from being our seventh most favoured Joni song in 2002 to a middle-ranking number 60 in 2004! Could our collective change of opinion of this song be attributed to the bombastic Travelogue version? ...Which got me thinking more about the 'Travelogue Factor', how had it affected the standing of other songs? Well, of the 22 songs featured, 14 went up in the rankings (most notably SIRE OF SORROW & YOU DREAM FLAT TIRES) and 8 went down. On the balance of this evidence, Travelogue had a positive impact on our opinions - generally, we like these songs better than we did in 2002 (... with the strong exception of 'JUDGEMENT'!). ... I know, I'm weird... but I'd only have been watching daytime TV otherwise! Regards John Southport, UK - -- Sprackland ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:59:36 EST From: Barolo82@aol.com Subject: career crash Ciao Joniphiles, John: "and it made me so angry to be reminded of the critical mauling that was given to 'Mingus' and how it knocked Joni back." I was a senior in college when Hissing came out. Joni's "fall from grace" really began with that album, accelerated with Hejira, and terminated with DJRD. Mingus was merely another stake in the heart of a dead corpse by that time, careerwise, pop music wise, critic wise, and sales wise. I was one of those that was bewildered by Joni's choices and gave up on her after Mingus, vowing never to buy another album of hers. However, something happened to me, and in the early 90's I began to listen to and appreciate these albums - with the exception of Mingus, which I do not own and never will. Maybe I am shallow, but I also like WTRF, Chalkmark (Beat of Black Wings, wow) and DED. Somehow the dead career was revived. :~) dc. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 06:59:09 -0800 (PST) From: Smurf Subject: Re: Snakes & Ladders 2002 to 2004 John wrote: << Curious that two songs from longest ago are the top two climbers from 2002 to 2004 - any theories? >> To know whether or not that's a truly significant statistical leap, you'd have to know how many people voted. If it's just 15 people, any votes they cast become big blips on the radar. If it's 150 voters, that's different -- and a much more reliable and significant indicator of changing opinion. - --Smurf, whose vote would change daily __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:29:38 EST From: Chorando6@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2005 #27 minnie ripperton Hi john in southport. I've got it on a best of. Its good, not fantastic, just good. If you want it email me off list. Also i think its available on one of the covers cds from about 3 years ago. Regards Clive ps my mum was evacuated to southport ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:32:04 -0500 From: Reuben Bell Subject: Joni's videos I was browsing through music videos in the "on demand" section of cable last night, and was kind of shocked to see "How Do You Stop" in the list, in with REM, Alanis, and Orgy. Very odd. Nice video, though - - I had never seen it before. How many actual music videos has Joni made over the years, and (more importantly), how many of them are not commercially available? I have been trying to find of copy of "My Secret Place" for years (why oh why did she leave it off the CIFTC video??), and would love to see the DED videos as well. Oh, and that film she she made in the early 80's where she appeared as "Art Nouveau" again. Are there others that are out there? Reuben ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 17:48:45 +0000 From: John Sprackland Subject: Re: Snakes & Ladders 2002 to 2004 I said I found 'basic' statistics therapeutic; I'm not up to doing it properly! Howerever, we're talking about a poll of 603 voting occasions in 2002 (not necessarily 603 separate voters, but like you Smurf, my vote would change daily too, so they all count) and 187 in 2004 - I guess, the novelty of the polls to long-established jmdl members has worn off. Lower down the list I agree that the results become meaningless (like, so what if Ethiopia has leapt from 166th to 128th on the chart - that still means we don't much like it!) but I think 'Judgement' falling from 7th to 60th and 'Sire of Sorrow' going up from 57th to 14th reflects genuine changes in the perceptions of these songs. Don't take me too seriously - I'm just trying to point out that, even amongst knowledgeable fans, fashions change and favourites come and go. I'm probably just trying to encourage myself to believe that, one year, the jmdl members will vote for 'Mingus' as one of their top 5 Joni albums! Regards John Southport, UK NP: Karine Polwart, 'Faultlines'. Great singer-songwriter! In message <20050122145909.33489.qmail@web42106.mail.yahoo.com>, Smurf writes > John wrote: > ><< Curious that two songs from longest ago are the top >two climbers from 2002 to 2004 - any theories? >> > > >To know whether or not that's a truly significant >statistical leap, you'd have to know how many people >voted. If it's just 15 people, any votes they cast >become big blips on the radar. If it's 150 voters, >that's different -- and a much more reliable and >significant indicator of changing opinion. > >--Smurf, whose vote would change daily > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! >http://my.yahoo.com > > - -- Sprackland ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 12:06:33 -0500 From: "David Henderson" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2005 #27 >>> Interesting, this question of Joni 'only' writing the words. I find that Joni, like Morrissey, is an artist whose words and vocal style are so overwhelming that regardless of whether the music is written by Joni or Mingus or Klein (or, in Morrissey's case, Marr/Whyte/etc.), there's no doubting that it is a Joni or Morrissey song. I cannot think of Mingus as any less of a 'Joni album' than Blue, Hejira or any other (except the retreads of recent years). Regards John Southport, UK <<< Hello Everyone - I am new to the list. I've been lurking in the shadows for a few weeks. I agree completely with what John said above about Joni and Morrissey. I've never understood why Mingus wasn't better received. I think it's mesmerizing and like a play, a brief jazz opera. I think God Must Be A Boogie Man, A Chair in the Sky and especially, The Wolf That Lives in Lindsey are among Joni's best. I will confess, unlike a lot of other people on the list, this is my favorite Joni period . . . THOSL, DJRD, Hejira, Mingus, Shadows and Light. Another confesion: I really love Chalk Mark. That album came along at a really dark time in my life when I was living in a strange place against my will and felt music was at a particularly lackluster and dumb place. Chalk Mark was a breath of fresh air and smart and melodic, and Secret Place, The Tea Leaf Prophecy and The Reocurring Dream got me through some very, very bad times. I can't tell you how many times I cried singing My Secret Place, and it still makes my heart ache. I guess it's a personal thing. The sound/production is a little dated now, but it's still a favorite. I think the NJC is kind of cool here. I've never really had any friends that love Joni, and it's interesting to hear what other fans think about in addition to Joni. It's a lot of fun so far . . . kind of an addiction, this list. BTW The Same Situation helped me get through the inauguration. Temporary resignation is better than despair. I have faith in the future (and I really think I believe that!). David NP: Green Day's American Idiot (fantastic rock opera) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:19:17 EST From: Justalittlebreen@aol.com Subject: Re: Just ice, and cakes out in the snow... (sjc) In a message dated 1/21/05 5:25:06 PM, smurfadelica@yahoo.com writes: > But once I've heard a song that makes me laugh a few > times, it's over. It's like listening to a joke I've > heard too many times ... yet again. > > (The only exception to this that I can think of right > now is Cole Porter, and I that's probably because he > really did take a poet's delight in language and word > play. He never did "jokes," per se.) > You know who else comes to my mind in this context, Smurph, is Michael Franks, who has been compared with Cole P.; he has staying power for me, and I think the key may be he can write funny/silly (like Popsicle Toes or Monkey See, Monkey Do, which wear out, like you said, but which are so good, it takes a while), but he can also write funny/sad (I still can't hear "Mr. Blue" without dissolving into a puddle of weep) and funny/wistful (perhaps 90% of his output). I think both of the Wainwrights fall into this category, too. Joni is sometimes at her best when she's funny/lite -- a lot of her social/personal observation songs, or when she pokes fun at herself as well as others, like in People's Parties and Boho Zone --but i don't like her so much when she gets caustic and bitter, where she's clever but humorless -- some of her most memorable songs fall into this category, admittedly, like Sex Kills, Magdelaine Laundries, No Apologies, and (truly, I dislike this song because it's got a boring melody and really only sophomorpic observations to make: Borderline) - -- and sometimes it's hard to know when she's kidding, and when she's dead serious and only I see some (unintentional) humor in her lyrics. In '95-'96, when battling cancer, I used to listen to Job's Sad Song and scream out the "What Have I Done To You??!!" chorus, and either laugh or cry, and I used Facelift similarly during my father's final illness. Stay bundled up, Smurph; don't leave your cakes out in the snow -- which reminds me, when he wasn't too stoned, Jimmy Webb could write some funny/devastating lyrics, too. Here's a snippet that I can remember from "5:30 plane", from around 1972: How long have we been waiting for the light to change? Long enough to know that green is dubious. Long enough to know that there's no sense to us, And the line is pretty long... (Chorus) I don't know what you are gonna do, But I've decided I can make it on my own I didn't want to be here, baby, when you got home, Sitting alone, But the 5:30 plane's already gone(A stuck in traffic song that I like better than "Sex Kills", btw) Another JW favorite of mine from the '60's where he combines funny with social commentary is "When Can Brown Begin?" The daytime's bright And nighttime's wonderful Twilight never really brings them to an end If White is Right And Black is Beautiful When can Brown begin? People, tell me, When can Brown begin? Webb says he got the idea from Sammy Davis, Jr. one night when they met at a nightclub somewhere; Webb took the idea to heart and wrote the song, but when he approached SDJr. to see if he wanted to record it, the latter said he had no memory of having made such a suggestion (I suspect he may not have remembered meeting JW at all!). xox, walt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:25:20 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: appearances (and how they can be deceiving) I was looking through the Chronology of Appearances section of JoniMitchell.com and noticed that Joni did several gigs in October of 1964 and even one in November of '64. Kilauren was born in February of 1965 so Joni was 5 or 6 months pregnant in November of '64. How on earth did she manage to keep the whole thing under wraps for so long? (Maybe I just answered my own question.) Mark E. in Seattle marveling at Simon's work ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 10:26:37 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: spellcheck interprets 'Kilauren' as 'Children'. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 13:41:40 EST From: Justalittlebreen@aol.com Subject: Of Mingus and WTRF John S. of Southport, UK wrote: <> WTRF stodgy!!! Not a word i would have used to describe it -- she was deleriously happy, and (my guess has always been) coked out of her mind; what, five or six songs under 3 minutes, WTRF the song in just over 2 minutes! My two favorites on the album are the slower, jazzier songs more reminiscent of her earlier output, Moon at the Window and Love (Corinthians). But i would hardly call the album "stodgy". Do you mean that she was selling out by turning out what she may have thought was more mainstream stuff, by doing her version of Rock'n'Roll? I think there's some truth to that, but i think it was largely the (happy) frame of mind she was in. Btw, does anyone know if she'd written Moon during the Mingus period? Sorta sounds that way to me... Back to John: <> We have similar taste, John -- but I'd have to squeeze DJRD in there somehow, without bumping any of those off the top. I always have this trouble with Joni Stuff... best, Walt "JustALittle" Breen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:01:22 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Travelogue Jamie posted: "This is a great interview, funny that I'd never seen it either............ This has no Joni speaking on it but it's the BBC review of Travelogue. Ok, so it's a bit late in finding it but... it's really nice to hear. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts/ram/frontrow20021206_joni_mitchell.ram" Thanks for posting this. One of the interview features is a snippet of Cherokee Louise from Travelogue. I think this is a killer version of the song. Perfect connection between the music and the lyrics. The more I listen to T, the more I like it. And I listen to it more now than any other Joni CD. Which means I love it. It really is incredibly beautiful. I am not worthy. Maybe Pete Townshend is (seems like he 'got it' right away - or maybe not, and I'm not such a slow study after all). Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:14:50 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Of Mingus and WTRF Justalittlebreen@aol.com wrote: > > WTRF stodgy!!! Not a word i would have used to describe it -- she > was deleriously happy, and (my guess has always been) coked out of > her mind; what, five or six songs under 3 minutes, WTRF the song in > just over 2 minutes! Hmmm....let see: My child's a stranger I bore her but I could not raise her What makes you run, wild thing? I thought you loved me I guess you learn to refuse what you think you can't handle You're acting like a vandal Wrecking the dream At the first bad scene Is it possible to learn how to care and yet not care? Since love has two faces, hope and despair And pleasure always turns to fear, I find At least the moon at the window, the thieves left that behind If your heart is on the floor 'Cause you've just seen your lover comin' through the door with a new fool Be cool Woman she bounce back easy But a man could break both his legs I keep on trying to understand How come I keep moving from man to man to man But when I became a woman I put away childish things And began to see Through a glass darkly Yeah, WTRF is deliriously happy alright! ;-) Delirious and caffeined-up Mark E. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:23:52 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: appearances (and how they can be deceiving) --- Mark or Travis wrote: > I was looking through the Chronology of Appearances > section of JoniMitchell.com and noticed that > Joni did several gigs in October of 1964 and even > one in November of '64. Kilauren was born in > February of 1965 so Joni was 5 or 6 months pregnant > in November of '64. How on earth did she manage > to keep the whole thing under wraps for so long? > (Maybe I just answered my own question.) > First babies often don't really show until they're just about to pop. With second babies, some of us are as big as a house about 2 seconds after conception. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:26:48 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Mingus John wrote: "And then I checked in to the jmdl album polls and sadly discovered that Mingus has been rated as Joni's least popular proper album release for the last two years. Below 'Wild Things'? Below 'Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm'? jmdl, I despair of you! I cannot bear the idea that Joni must think that even we - he most devoted followers - are as tone-deaf as the critics who gave Mingus such a rough ride." I, for one, am still looking forward to "getting into" the 'Mingus' record (it being the toughest for me to warm up to). I would offer this hypothesis by way of explanation, however - several of the musical compositions were written by Mingus, not Joni. I am eternally partial to Joni's compositions, not Mingus's. And even Joni's contributions (GMBABM and TWTLIL) are rather jazzy pieces, by Joni's standards - deliberately (IMO) suited to the overall tenor of the record - so they, too, are a bit tougher for me to warm up to. For me, the meshing of Joni's musical and lyrical compositions are irresistable draws to my heart and mind and soul (producing a trickle down effect to ......well, never mind). That said, I really have come to love the 3 cuts that appear on the S&L and ROTR DVD's - those being Dry Cleaner, Goodbye Porkpie Hat, and GMBABM. And I like the other Mingus cuts more each time I hear them (which is still rarely). So, I think I'll obey you and go listen to Mingus now. :-) Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:30:11 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: career crash --- Barolo82@aol.com wrote: > I was one of those that was bewildered by > Joni's choices and gave up on > her after Mingus, vowing never to buy another album > of hers. However, > something happened to me, and in the early 90's I > began to listen to and appreciate > these albums - with the exception of Mingus, which I > do not own and never will. WHAT!! Heretic! Never say never. You may one day learn to love Mingus. My main complaint? Not long enough! Give me more!!! Now, for penance, beat yourself with Mingus Stringus. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:51:18 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Sisotowbell Laura asked " Is there an actual Sisotowbell Lane?" Somehow In Spite Of Trouble Ours Will Be Ever Lasting Love A la Joni's myth featuring the Mosalm and the Posall. Siquomb, eh ? Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:04:44 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Vote Mingus! Not all JMDLers and not all critics, either. Neil Tesser of downbeat "got" it. Read this, because it will make your day: http://www.jonimitchell.com/downbeat79.html BTW, is there ever any good news on al Jazirra TV? Those guys need to discover "happy news". I wish Fox Broadcasting would buy them out. :) All the best, Lama John in Southland, UK said, >And then I checked in to the jmdl album polls and sadly discovered that Mingus has been rated as Joni's least popular proper album release for the last two years. Below 'Wild Things'? Below 'Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm'? jmdl, I despair of you! I cannot bear the idea that Joni must think that even we - he most devoted followers - are as tone-deaf as the critics who gave Mingus such a rough ride.> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:06:19 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Mo' Mingus Hi David, and welcome - and thanks for coming out of the shadows and offering up an introduction and a great first post. As to why Mingus wasn't better received, I'll defer to my earlier comment about it being so totally out of step with what was going on around it culturally at the time - not that Joni's ever been overly concerned about that. Add to that the fact that even lots of hardcore Joni fans didn't buy into DJRD and lost interest, and the critical drubbing it got in the rock/pop press and it spells F-L-O-P. Doesn't mean it wasn't worthy of better; it was and is. Like I said earlier, I steered clear of it at the time (I was much more into more aggressive stuff like Elvis C & The Clash at the time) but eventually matured into getting it and I think it's an incredible work. I have said more than once that I think her singing is at its apex on Mingus, "Sweet Sucker Dance" in particular. As for these collaborations being "Joni songs", I wholeheartedly agree and as such include any covers of them in my database and compilations. Almost every cover of Dry Cleaner features her amazing lyrics; I would say she really gave that song a new life. Chalk Mark? Well, I can't get on board with you about that one, except for a couple decent tracks I think most of it's really rotten and the production values couldn't be worse, all the synthetic sounds and gratuitous guest vocalists... And it's also exciting to see someone else here loving the latest Green Day - - it's quite a rock workout! Looking forward to hearing lots more from you dude. Bob NP: Ani, "Revelling" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:46:26 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Re: appearances (and how they can be deceiving) Marky Mark in Seattle writes: > Kilauren was born in > February of 1965 so Joni was 5 or 6 months pregnant in November of '64. How > on earth did she manage > to keep the whole thing under wraps for so long? Well, she was a lady of the canyon with Mama Cass and those loose fitting clothes were in style back then. I love this pic of the 2 of them (and Mary Travers). http://www.casselliot.com/imagepage69special.htm Jimmy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:52:27 +0000 From: "Michael O'Malley" Subject: Re:Joni's place on the CBC 50-Track List Re: Picking one essential Joni track (long) Thanks to everyone who submitted a contender for an ``essential track`` for the CBC Canadian list. As a reminder, the definition of an essential track (for the purpose of this list) is a tune with an undeniably great melody and great lyrics; a great hook that is easily recognizable; a song that captured the spirit of its time, all the while being original and different enough to act as a trailblazer, setting a new standard or style. To re-cap possible contenders: I first said: I Had a King - hauntingly beautiful, but not well known. The same could be said of Marcie. Cactus Tree? Is that her first great pop tune? Is it an essential track? The obvious choices from Clouds are Chelsea Morning and BSN. Not favourites of mine personally. I much prefer the 2000 version of BSN. Of course, both are classics and have been covered extensively. From LOTC, Circle Game and Woodstock are classics, but perhaps a bit dirge-like as sung by Joni. The CSNY version of Woodstock has a good chance to get on the list, but there are no Joni vocals! How about Ladies of the Canyon itself? How about (shudder) BYT? Is that ultimately the only song powerful enough to finally immortalise Joni on such a list ?? The problem is, it *is* a great pop song! Are we destined to be doomed by jukebox Joni!? From Blue, the obvious choice would be ACOY. Randy Remote then chose YTMOIAR and California, then re-thought it, and chose BYT. He said: On second thought, Big Yellow Taxi is the definitive Joni cut, IMO. When they say "tracks", I assume they mean not just songs, but the actual recording, including the song itself, the singer, and the recording as a whole. BSN fails on this count; it's a pretty plain, lacklustre rendition,(I heard it on the radio today). It's a great song alright, though melancholy. On the other hand, BYT is fun, crackles with energy, and is inviting, even as it preaches. It has broad appeal, and contains several catchphrases that have become part of the lexicon. Bottom line, it's a great record that holds it's own with the great records of the 20th century. Smurf said: How about "Raised on Robbery?" It has CC (Canadian Content) with its Maple Leafs and it is probably more familiar to more people. However, "Big Yellow Taxi" is loaded with Joni catch phrases, such as "don't it always seem to go," "paved paradise," "tree museum," etc. Martin Giles said: Joni hasn't written much in the way of classic pop songs. Her music has always been too multi-layered, has too much to offer to be able also to come across in that instantaneous way a classic 'pop song' does. And that is why I love her music so much. I long ago realised that the music that I love most is almost always the music that took time to grow on me. Martin picked California, with BYT being a close second. (Me: Im with you on this, Martin, your words express my thoughts precisely, but my picks would be different.) Adam Mulvey said: There's few people who know much about music who wouldn't be able to sing the whole of Big Yellow Taxi at you (and rightly so!); and then there's Both Sides Now, which is a fantastically anthemic pop song, and Chelsea Morning, and You Turn Me On, I'm A Radio, and... Well, it would be quite a long list, I reckon! Catherine McKay said: Even though Joan has had other songs that have made it onto top-name-your-number lists, I doubt any of them has made it as far, or is as widely known as BYT. So, if that's what they're after, then BYT it is. Having said that, I've never cared much for the song (maybe because I've heard it so often by Joni and others). I feel like such a snob, but although I've been happy for Joan when she has a "hit" (it's a relative term), I've always wished it was some other song that made it, and not the ones like BYT and Raised on Robbery. (Me: I think you speak for many of us when you say this, Catherine!) Mark E in Seattle said: I would vote for either 'Help Me' or 'Free Man in Paris'. Both were pretty widely played on AM radio and both are fairly accessible songs with singable choruses, especially 'Help Me'. Jerry Notaro said: My guess would be that Help Me was the best selling single of her own single releases. (Me: Remember, a ``hit`` does not automatically make a song an essential track.) Jenny Goodspeed said: I'm partial to "Help Me' because it was the first Joni song I ever heard and my musical world was instantly changed forever. Was it a trailblazer? It certainly was for me. Kate Bennett said: I would say it is ACOY. Having done 4 Tributes to Joni, ACOY & River are the ones that most musicians want to perform. (Me: ACOY, the sentimental favourite, to be sure!) Bob Muller said: As for Joni on CBC's 50 tracks, it would be awfully difficult not to select BSN. Joni herself has put 3 different versions of it on 5 releases. With almost 400 covers, it leaves even stalwarts like BYT, Woodstock, and the campfire fave The Circle Game in the dust. And it's been recorded in: English, French, Hebrew, Japanese, German, Dutch and probably some others as well. It's been punked, funked, jazzed, bluegrassed, and all points in between and continues to be recorded more now than ever. And if you break it down, it's not just a simple pop ditty, it starts with a simple lyrical observation about clouds, builds to a more personal review of the nature of love, and then closes with a more universal declaration of the inevitability of life itself. And it does so in an alternate tuning, without the benefit of a chorus. For a song to have engrained itself into the global psyche and still inspire artists to tackle it, it's something special. It's complex and simple simultaneously. (Me: Great pitch for BSN, Bob!) Whew! Thats some re-cap! Me again: Ok, according to the shows host, they are moving into 60s territory next week (Jan 24-28). He mentioned that this is the era where the greats, such as Dylan, Neil Young, Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell, begin to emerge. So this begs the question, will Jonis essential track be a 60s song or a 70s song? Arguments could conceivably be made for a Joni song from each decade. (For example, there were 2 Beatles tunes on the first 50 tracks list.) I doubt her later material (which I enjoy just as much, if not more so) will be in the running for the 80s and 90s. Im sure we are even going to hear arguments about whether or not ex-pat Jonis music qualifies as `Canadian`` but well let that sleeping dog quietly lie, cause we all know it is Canadian at the source ;-). So, if we look at the 60s work, its got to be a song from STAS or Clouds. IMO, that means a toss up between Cactus Tree, Chelsea Morning, I Dont Know Where I Stand, and BSN. Of these 4, BSN is the greatest classic - but is it the essential track? Does it surpass Cactus Tree in its lyric, music and originality? Bobs pitch (see above) is very convincing. Let me play devils advocate here  and pitch for Cactus Tree: the theme of this song, the ambivalence around love, desire and commitment, is expressed so beautifully, painted with images and words  trademarks of Jonis craft. The theme will become so central to Jonis work (and will reverberate with legions of fans for decades), and here we have it couched for the first time, in an era when women were beginning to question and redefine their roles as wives and lovers. We also have her trademark open tuning on unaccompanied guitar. The singing is pure beauty: we have both her lilting falsetto and her deeper chest voice. Joni layers her own vocal harmonies over the melody line. Im still swept up by the rhythms, the sounds and the beauty of this song every time I hear it. The 70s work, arguably her greatest decade of creative output, has so many possibilities as to boggle the mind. Will we have an essential Joni track from each decade, the 60s and the 70s ?. Im sure we can easily make a case for this. However, like Catherine, I feel it would be a pity, if BYT was deemed to be the best pick from her 70s work. You can follow the show here: http://www.cbc.ca/50tracks/index.html Voting for the 50s has already begun. Michael in Quebec _________________________________________________________________ Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has to offer. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN. Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 22:47:55 +0000 From: colin Subject: Re: appearances (and how they can be deceiving) Catherine McKay wrote: >> >> >> > >First babies often don't really show until they're >just about to pop. With second babies, some of us are >as big as a house about 2 seconds after conception. > > > > This tends to be true of bitches too. The first litter, they don't look so big becasue their muscles are taught. With subsequent litters they show earleir and larger. Queens are the same. There are exceptions. My Tilly is due in a couple of weeks and is only now looking pregnant. Her first litter she was ENORMOUS and her tummy hit the floor, poor thing. This time, despite her behaviour, I was convinced she was not preganant. I had her scanned just to see what leverl of reabsorption she had reached. Far from reabsorbing, we could see 4 or 5 pulsating blobs. Until thei slast couple of days, I was still not convinced. The reason I have not been able to feel like I usually do is because they are being carried high up and her ribs prevent palpation. Tilly becomes all 'delicate' the day after breeding if she has taken. She gets a doe eyed look, a far away stare, and she refuses to jump up on anything and gets all soppy. I have had one who was sick the morning after the mating and continued with morning sickness for 3 or so weeks. Some won't eat at all so have to force fed. Some angels turn into vicous monsters and some miserrable old crones become as sweet as pie. Some get very maternal to others and some attack others. Some won't leave their babies even for the loo when they are born and others push them out, wash them, feed them and get out and only go back to wash and feed. These 'modern mums' are the easiest to handle. Those that won't leave their babes at all can cause a lot of inconvenience. some will feed until the babes are 3 or so months and others will tell em to piss off as soon as they are 5-6 weeks. (John has just called from his mothers and it is really odd listening to him speaking with a Geordie accent! He doesn't normally as he went to public (private) school and speaks without an accent, but as soon as he goes up north, it comes back). - -- bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 15:31:14 +0000 From: Garret Subject: Back on Board/that auld list synchronicity again I've finally been hooked up to the internet thanks to a new roommate; he knew just what to say to those helpful people in the phone company. I had almost given up hope. Every major telecom company in Ireland told me that i don't live in a "broadband area" (there is something a little backwards about ireland sometimes). Then this guy gets it set up, wireless to boot (well, they say it's wireless but there actually are wires but i dare not complain.... my relationship with my computer is somewhat superstitious: i try not talk bad of it in case it sulks; i hold my breath and try not to move when burning cds etc, and i only half jest there;-) Moral: I can read the list regularly. I'm signed up for the french jonifest and really looking forward to it. The wind and rain here really makes me wish that someone would move august forward! A little joni-synchronicity: i was doing a training course in work yesterday and one of teh modules was around team building. We separated into pairs. One member of each pair was to talk about that one thing that other people in their lives just don't have time for. The other person was to listen, without speaking. Free reign on the joni converstaion for me then:-) The "listener" then had to repeat back to the group what we had said. It turned out that the trainer was also a joni fan and identified with other people not warming to JM as a conversation point. lol. Oki. tis good to be back on board. GARRET NP- Death Cab For Cutie, Coney Island (picked up on a recomednation from the covers king, thanks. have you heard The Postal Service?) - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:33:06 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Correction The latest Rolling Stone magazine has a Joni mention, and it's an interesting one. Their last issue featured their "500 Greatest Songs of All Time", and Joni was listed as one of the judges. Well, it seems that the ballot they thought was Joni's was actually Aaron Neville's, so Joni did not respond to their survey after all. This will probably be the ONLY time that Aaron is mistaken for Joni. Bob NP: Sonic Youth, "Total Trash" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:02:13 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Joni's place on the CBC 50-Track List Interesting thought process but is cactus tree better known than I had a king? (I had a king is the first song on the first album so I believe it is the first song I ever heard joni sing... it is also the irst joni song I learned --however I hadn't discovered alt tunings so my version was in standard-- & one I still think is masterful ) >Re: Picking one essential Joni track (long) To re-cap possible contenders: I first said: I Had a King - hauntingly beautiful, but not well known. The same could be said of Marcie. Cactus Tree? Is that her first great pop tune? Is it an essential track? Let me play devil's advocate here - and pitch for Cactus Tree: the theme of this song, the ambivalence around love, desire and commitment, is expressed so beautifully, painted with images and words - trademarks of Joni's craft. The theme will become so central to Joni's work (and will reverberate with legions of fans for decades), and here we have it couched for the first time, in an era when women were beginning to question and redefine their roles as wives and lovers. We also have her trademark open tuning on unaccompanied guitar. The singing is pure beauty: we have both her lilting falsetto and her deeper chest voice. Joni layers her own vocal harmonies over the melody line. I'm still swept up by the rhythms, the sounds and the beauty of this song every time I hear it.< ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 03:33:15 +0000 From: "Michael O'Malley" Subject: RE: Joni's place on the CBC 50-Track List Kate said: Interesting thought process but is cactus tree better known than I had a king? (I had a king is the first song on the first album so I believe it is the first song I ever heard joni sing... it is also the irst joni song I learned --however I hadn't discovered alt tunings so my version was in standard-- & one I still think is masterful ) Good question Kate. I don't know which is better known. We know Cactus Tree was used in the film `Walk on the Moon`` that was discused on this list. I Had A King is truly lovely, but such a sad song about the end of a specific relationship. For me, its theme isn't as far reaching as that of Cactus Tree, which has something positive in the rythms and chords that uplift me, rather than make me still and quiet. That's why my pitch was for Cactus Tree. Michael in Quebec _________________________________________________________________ Designer Mail isn't just fun to send, it's fun to receive. Use special stationery, fonts and colors. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN. Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:37:09 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: appearances (and how they can be deceiving) >Joni did several gigs in October of 1964 and even one in November of '64. Kilauren was born in February of 1965 so Joni was 5 or 6 months pregnant in November of '64. How on earth did she manage to keep the whole thing under wraps for so long? (Maybe I just answered my own question.)< Lol mark, well in november she would have been around 6 months pregnant- more or less... some people at 6 months just don't really show that much & of course the style was empire dresses (high waste) ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2005 #22 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)