From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #334 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, November 23 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 334 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: The Arrangement [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Jericho ["Happy The Man" ] Music video [M C ] Rolling Stone's Top 500 Songs [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Rolling Stone's Top 500 Songs [Randy Remote ] Back from California (SJC) [FMYFL@aol.com] Re: Dog Eat Dog, was Re: Hello (The Box Set and The Answer) ["Martin Gile] Re: Rolling Stone's Top 500 Songs [hell ] For Free (Refuge DVD) [Gary Zack ] Re: Jericho [Nuriel Tobias ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:41:36 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: The Arrangement Lori wrote: "An indictment on selling one's soul to buy into the "great" Western/American dream that is consumerism and debt and materialism. Taken as a letter or a poem written to one person, it's still so easy to view it as a message to all of us." And Nuriel replied "But you know, sometimes i think that Joni's take on marriage life is too bitter, upset and criticizing. (Unless it's hers and Larry's - they're not "stuck" in some "Arrangement" - they have "Solid Love")." Regarding Lori's brief analysis, in calling it an indictment, Lori (I think) captures a truth, but not the whole truth. LOTC was my first exposure to Joni. After a short time, I fell in love with this album, and played it for my father. His comment - "I really liked that song "The Arrangement' ". He could have been the object of that song. So could I (just change the floor from 33 to 29 and you pretty much have it right). So why did he like it at first, and why am I still drawn to it so ? If it were only an indictment - a charge that one is selling out - that would be so harsh as to be a turn-off. But there is a level of compassion and encouragement in the lyric that is not merely deeply personal (she "whispers" 'you could have been more, you could have been more'), but also in a sense understanding ('noone' knows who you really are - but 'I -Joni - know' there must be more underneath) and reaffirming (yes, you "could" have) and even in a sense encouraging (while you still have the time.... reminiscent of the later "You've got to shake your fists at lightning now). It is critical, yes, but not mean spirited and - especially - not angry for anger's sake. There is in almost all of her art, a rejection of anger for anger's sake. On the rare occasions when she lashes out for the sake of lashing out, her art suffers, IMO. Nuriel, on the other hand, points at another facet. While Joni's view of traditional (or at least suburban) marriage seems in more than one song to be primarily negative and sterile (in THOSL and Harry's House, as well as The Arrangement), in all of those I sense an undercurrent on Joni's part of less than full understanding, of wondering what more might there be to this that she is not 'getting', and perhaps of 'marriage the hippest way to go, well I don't think so, but I'm gonna take a look around it though'. For example, 'he gave her good reason to quit him - still she stays with a love of some kind, it's the lady's choice'. Ultimately, she does make a genuine go of marriage, and I have little doubt developed a keener understanding of its pluses - including deep explorations of loyalty, commitment and friendship - that remain with her via her ongoing relationship with Larry Klein. Extending Nuriel's hypothesis, once the marriage itself happened, the songs of indictment did, too. As usual, oversimplified due to time constraints. But that's Joni for you. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:15:03 -0600 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Re: Jericho There is a lot of modern belief by scholars that Jericho as in scripture never actually happened. That Jericho and Ai were actually allegories for if you do what God has called you to do you will be blessed (Jericho) and if you don't do it you will be condemned (Ai). Craig - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nuriel Tobias" To: Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 12:49 AM Subject: Jericho >I always feel strange when listening to Jericho. ( And i wouldn't have >unless i realy loved that song) > Joni uses the falling of Jericho's walls as a symbol to unconditional > love, open and free, a way to keep the good feelings alive. > Does she know that Jericho is the first occupied territory in the Bible? > Does she know that after the falling of the walls all Jericho's citizens, > from babies to women, were slaughtered? Surely she wouldn't have written a > song dealing with the same ideas in Jericho and name it Fallujah! > > While other cities that were conquered by Joshua's army left no > archaeological trace, Jericho did, and all scientists agree that Jericho > had no walls at all. > Another interesting fact is that during the very short time when it seemed > like Israel and Palestine were about to sign a peace agreement, a casino > was built in Jericho (which is at the occupied terrtories). Gambling in > not allowed in Israel - so when the Jericho casino was opened - nearly > everyone in Israel rushed to the Jericho casino. It was a dream-like > situation to see Israeli soldiers entertaining themselves and served by > Palestinian waitresses. When "troubles" started again - Israeli gamblers > refused to accept the fact that they were no longer allowed to enter > Jericho, and used tricks and lies to enter it untill the Jericho casino > became a war-zone, and was closed. > > Nuriel > Meet the all-new My Yahoo!  Try it today! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:32:33 -0800 (PST) From: M C Subject: Music video I usually lurk but I wanted to share this. I don't recall seeing it here before. It may take a few moments to download. http://electricsix.com/media/bush.mov Discover all thats new in My Yahoo! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 19:31:58 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Rolling Stone's Top 500 Songs Just got this issue today - I guess by now everyone knows that this survey/panel selected Dylan's "Like A Rolling Stone" as #1. Joni placed (3) songs in the group, not too bad really. Both Sides Now - #170 Help Me - #282 Free Man In Paris - #470 As many as Van Morrison, Bruce Springsteen, Johnny Cash, Elvis Costello, Pink Floyd, The Supremes, Simon & Garfunkel, Neil Young...and more than Jackson Browne, James Taylor, Fats Domino, REM, CSNY, and a host of others. And she was a panelist as well. Bob NP: Carli Munoz/Eddie Gomez, "Both Sides Now" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:08:14 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Rolling Stone's Top 500 Songs SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > JJoni placed (3) songs in the group, not too bad really. > more than Jackson > Browne, James Taylor, Fats Domino, REM, CSNY, > > And she was a panelist as well. Please, no! Not another scandal! ....seriously, though, congratulations, Joni ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:10:30 EST From: FMYFL@aol.com Subject: Back from California (SJC) Hi jmdl family, I got back from CA over a week ago, but caught that nasty flu bug and it's the first time I felt like posting. It was great seeing Coyote Rick for his 50th birthday, along with the Dulson's, Kakki, and Clark Carlton. I was hoping to see Joni, but she didn't make it. I did get to meet her good friends Val, Chris, & Shell, and they were all very nice. So after being sick last week, I went to my 30th class reunion this past weekend (the one that was supposed to be during Jonifest, but was postponed due to the hurricane). One of my favorite times at the reunion was walking on the beach with a girl that I didn't know at all in high school. She was a violinist in school, and hung out with a different crowd than I did. I had heard she went to NYC after high school to peruse her music career, Then I found out a couple of years ago that she was playing and backup singing with Bruce Springsteen. Her name is Susie Tyrell (and Rose, we've discussed this before). Anyway, it was 2:00 a.m. and I decided to take a walk along the beach. Susie was by herself sitting in the sand. I started talking to her, but didn't bring up Bruce since she was probably bombarded with questions all night. We just chatted about different topics, and she finally asked me who my favorite songwriter/performer was. Naturally I told her Joni Mitchell. Her eyes lit up, and she said she LOVED Joni and had all of her albums. She said she even had the privilege to meet her a few times. For almost an hour we walked on the beach and sang Joni songs......and Susie knew the lyrics better than I did. Naturally, we bonded........especially when she said "Hejira" was her favorite. So when some of you say that you never want to go to your class reunion, you never know who you might run into. Jimmy NP: Jaime Cullem "All At Sea" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 00:24:41 -0000 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: Dog Eat Dog, was Re: Hello (The Box Set and The Answer) Hi folks One of the main reasons why early CDs sound so crappy is because of a) The quite often dubious provenance of the tapes used in the mastering and b) The relatively poor quality of the A-D convertors of the era. a) An album is mixed down to stereo in the recording studio (the 'original master' tape), and then goes to be 'mastered' for the medium it is to be released on. Back in vinyl days, a 'production master' would be made from the 'original masters'. This would be an altered copy of the 'original master'. The alterations would take into account the fact that certain sounds can't be transferred faithfully to vinyl. If left unaltered, the result might be distortion on the record, or even a jumping needle. So even when the equipment used is first rate, a 'production master' can be seen as a compromised version of the original master in certain repects. Just taking the 'production master' to use as the source for a subsequent CD release might not necessarily be the best choice. And don't get me started on the extremely dubious tapes that have been used as 'masters' for some CD releases of discs that originally came out on vinyl + cassette only. b) Getting from an analogue 'production master' to a CD means that the music has to be put through an analogue-to digital convertor. Back in the early days of CD, these were not necessarily very good; the result being 'thin', 'harsh' etc. As time has gone on, the quality of A-D convertors has improved enormously, so that subsequent 're-mastered' releases on CD generally sound greatly improved. When Mike Ragogna said he "hardly did any remastering", he probably decided when listening to the masters they sounded so good that all he needed to do was to see that the audio was transferred as carefully as possible to the digital domain. Otherwise there was little to be done in terms of improving the sound. These days, high bit resolution and higher sampling frequencies mean that A-D convertions can be hugely superior to earlier attempts. Jim mentions: > > The difference between my store-bought LP of "Wild Things Run Fast" and the GEFFEN box version is small to none. (The piano still wavers on the sustained notes at the beginning of "Chinese Cafe". Too bad she didn't use Fred Simon's engineer, Ken Christianson, on that one.) Hmmm.. I've always reckoned that there was a wow/flutter problem witht he multitrack tape recorder that was used here. No amount of care used subsequently will undo this problem. Just my technical penny (two cents) :). Martin. > > mark.travis@gte.net quotes > >from the BOX SET CREDITS: > > 96K/24-bit mastered from the original master tapes @ Universal Mastering > Studios West - North > Hollywood, CA > Somebody else with greater technical knowledge will have to explain exactly what that means.> > > > Nuriel Tobias wrote: > > Does the boxset says "remastered" - cuase the main reason i > > didn't buy it was that guy's note at jonimitchell.com that > > no remastering was done. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 18:51:01 -0800 (PST) From: hell Subject: Re: Rolling Stone's Top 500 Songs Bob wrote: > Just got this issue today - I guess by now everyone knows that this > survey/panel selected Dylan's "Like A Rolling Stone" as #1. Don't you find there's a certain irony in a publication choosing a song with their name in the title as #1!? Hell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:23:26 -0500 From: Gary Zack Subject: For Free (Refuge DVD) Was fortunate enough to snag a DVD copy of "Refuge of the Roads" today from Borders. I haven't seen it in ages due to a dead VCR and when I heard it was being released on DVD I sold my VHS copy. At least now I have it again and am only partly through it as I write. But once again I am smitten with Joni's vocals, piano, and visuals on "For Free," worth the price of the DVD in itself, (IMHO). Aside from the original recording, I think I love this version best, and especially the added lines: Playin' like a fallin' angel Playin' like a risin' star Playin' for a hat full of nothin' To the honkin' of the cars.... "For Free" on the "Refuge" DVD is just one of so many reasons why I love and am so moved by Joni Mitchell. Best regards, Gary ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:15:09 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Jericho In fact, Craig, ever since the Chasidim era started,(300 years ago), with the BAAL SHEM-TOV and NACHMAN OF BRESLAW on top, the whole Bible was considered as an allegorie. That still doesn't change the fact that the Jericho "allegorie" is based on a racial idea and a bloodbath event. Joni, imho, chose the not-so-very-right metaphore, for if God blessed the Jews at Jericho - he's just as "Blessing" as the preacher in Dog Eat Dog. Nuriel Happy The Man wrote: There is a lot of modern belief by scholars that Jericho as in scripture never actually happened. That Jericho and Ai were actually allegories for if you do what God has called you to do you will be blessed (Jericho) and if you don't do it you will be condemned (Ai). Craig - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nuriel Tobias" To: Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 12:49 AM Subject: Jericho >I always feel strange when listening to Jericho. ( And i wouldn't have >unless i realy loved that song) > Joni uses the falling of Jericho's walls as a symbol to unconditional > love, open and free, a way to keep the good feelings alive. > Does she know that Jericho is the first occupied territory in the Bible? > Does she know that after the falling of the walls all Jericho's citizens, > from babies to women, were slaughtered? Surely she wouldn't have written a > song dealing with the same ideas in Jericho and name it Fallujah! > > While other cities that were conquered by Joshua's army left no > archaeological trace, Jericho did, and all scientists agree that Jericho > had no walls at all. > Another interesting fact is that during the very short time when it seemed > like Israel and Palestine were about to sign a peace agreement, a casino > was built in Jericho (which is at the occupied terrtories). Gambling in > not allowed in Israel - so when the Jericho casino was opened - nearly > everyone in Israel rushed to the Jericho casino. It was a dream-like > situation to see Israeli soldiers entertaining themselves and served by > Palestinian waitresses. When "troubles" started again - Israeli gamblers > refused to accept the fact that they were no longer allowed to enter > Jericho, and used tricks and lies to enter it untill the Jericho casino > became a war-zone, and was closed. > > Nuriel > Meet the all-new My Yahoo!  Try it today! The all-new My Yahoo!  Get yours free! ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #334 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)