From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #318 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, November 7 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 318 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- happy birthday ["joe farrell" ] Re:I voted for Bush. [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Happy birthday! [Nuriel Tobias ] "My Child's A Stranger" [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [Catherine McKay ] tea leaf ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [Catherine McKay ] Nov. 7 [] Buon Compleanno [] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Kate's Joni Birthday gig! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Buon Compleanno [] Re; I voted for Bush and Birthday wishes [steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabriell] Happy Birthday! ["Mark or Travis" ] not a train station, Nuri ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Joni Birthday Special Monday On Internet Radio [jrrose ] Re: Happy Birthday! ["mackoliver" ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [Nuriel Tobias ] Re: Buon Compleanno (The Hebrew Version) [Nuriel Tobias ] Happy Birthday, Joni [] Happy Birthday, Joni! [Lori Fye ] Re: "My Child's A Stranger" [Catherine McKay ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 12:04:02 -0000 From: "joe farrell" Subject: happy birthday Happy Birthday Joni, hope you have a lovely day. Best Wishes, Joe. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 05:25:29 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re:I voted for Bush. This is a non-political and njc post. No matter what dfrench wrote, i only hope she wasn't attacked in a way that would made her leave our list. Several years ago i wrote a post and got so scared after reading the responds to it, i instantly signed off the list. I wasn't angry, i didn't sign off as a protest. I simply felt unwanted and very scared and ashamed. After a year or so, i signed in back again, and ever that day i couldn't have been happier being with all of you once again. I don't know how many of us are members on other lists or message boards. I used to be, and couldn't believe my eyes when seeing how members drove other members out and couldn't care less, not to mention that insulting and humiliating posts were a regular thing on those lists and message boards. Surely this is not the case on our list, and i have nothing against debates, jc-wise or njc-wise. Sharon once told me, in a friendly and loving way that is, that there's something very naive in my writing. That made me smile. Do forgive me if what i'm to write next would sound naive or even silly. Friends - lets do our best not to drive any member out of here. Once one's "let me out of here!" post is reaches the list, while we may not even understand what went wrong, lets do our best to change one's mind from leaving. May this place be a home, and not a train station. I'm not even going to say that the thing that's binding us is Joni. I for one, have no explanetion for our brotherhood. Not all of us are lionhearted. I think we're all very sensetive, but some are of more sensetive in a way that they they're easly hurt or frightened, child-like. Some of us are witty and some of us are foolish. Some of us spend hours writing a post, while others spill their ideas in a flesh. Some of us are politicaly-correct and some of us write whatever they feel like writing. Some of us check the jmdl posts every now and then and some of us can't await the next post appearing in their inbox. Some of us are old. Some of us are young. Some of us are working 24/7, have families and lots of friends. Some of us are sitting alone in a room, no one's ringing, no one's knocking at the door, and their only hope, happiness, comfort and light in the dark is this place. Love you all, Nuri Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 05:44:07 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Happy birthday! Catherine McKay wrote: "Thanks, Tim, for posting this. I don't pay much attention to birthdays, including my own - no, especially my own! There are so many candles now that the neighbours always call 911." And i'm asking you, Catherine, is'nt the best birthday gift your neighnours could give you, is those handsome, sexy and masculine 911 guys? Happy Birthday, Joni! I was born a month after your debut was released, and i know i've been listening to your magical voice in my mother's womb. You took me in, you gave me love, and you gave me life. So here's to you, my queen! Nuri Joan, long may you live! And continue to create in the way that you see best. You've given us so much and yet, like spoiled children, we always cry out for more. I wish you a long life, health and happiness. All the best. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 06:10:34 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: "My Child's A Stranger" Something i don't understand and wanted to share with you and ask you... While in the CMIARS version of "Chinese caf'" the lyric "My child's a stranger" is easy to undersand for the simple fact that Joni might have crossed the street and pass by Kilaurent without even noticing she's her daughter - i don't undersant what made Joni include the same song on Travelogue, knowing that the "My child's a stranger" lyric is part of it. On TTT's "Stay In Touch" she writes that "our roles aren't clear" moving to "Til we build a firm foundation" and ending it with "So, we should just surrender ,Let fate and duty shape us, Let light hearts make us, Let the worries hush, In the middle of this continent ,In the middle of our time on Earth, We receive one another" making it seem that it's the begining of the mother and daughter's getting to know eachother with a bright future awaiting them, few years later it all winds up in that she's still a "stranger" to Joni? Nuri Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 09:49:19 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" **While in the CMIARS version of "Chinese caf'" the lyric "My child's a stranger" is easy to undersand for the simple fact that Joni might have crossed the street and pass by Kilaurent without even noticing she's her daughter - i don't undersant what made Joni include the same song on Travelogue, knowing that the "My child's a stranger" lyric is part of it. Nuri, Firstly Chinese Cafe is on WTRF, not CM, but no matter. CM certainly could have used a song or two that was that good. Secondly I think Joni included it on Tlog because it's a great song, not necessarily because it still defined her 20 years later. Besides, the first time I heard WTRF and Chinese Cafe, I had no idea (I doubt that many of us did) about Kilauren and that whole story, so here's the way I interpreted the lyric: "Your kids are growing up straight and my child's a stranger" : This just says that one parent sees another parent as having done a better job of parenting than they have, making the observation that the other has a closer relationship with their kids than they do. "I bore her": A brilliant double-entendre, reflecting the same sentiment as above; I not only gave birth to her (bore her) but I'm totally uninteresting and irrelevant to her (bore her). "but I could not raise her": Much of the same sentiment, again bemoaning the fact that giving birth to a child and bringing up a child are very different challenges. Many parents don't give up their children for adoption, they spend their lives with them, yet they never really know them, they essentially don't "raise" them. Even knowing now what I didn't know then about Joni/Kilauren, the song works for me as a personal exhortation and as a universal parental lamentation. Given this universal interpretation of the song, I don't see anything that prohibits Joni from re-recording it, or performing it or anything of the sort. It would be like saying she couldn't sing "Chelsea Morning" anymore because she doesn't live in NYC's Chelsea district. Bob NP: Cyril Ornadel, "Both Sides Now" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:20:27 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Something i don't understand and wanted to share > with you and ask you... > > While in the CMIARS version of "Chinese caf'" the > lyric "My child's a stranger" is easy to undersand > for the simple fact that Joni might have crossed the > street and pass by Kilaurent without even noticing > she's her daughter - i don't undersant what made > Joni include the same song on Travelogue, knowing > that the "My child's a stranger" lyric is part of > it. > On TTT's "Stay In Touch" she writes that "our roles > aren't clear" moving to "Til we build a firm > foundation" and ending it with "So, we should just > surrender ,Let fate and duty shape us, Let light > hearts make us, Let the worries hush, In the middle > of this continent ,In the middle of our time on > Earth, We receive one another" making it seem that > it's the begining of the mother and daughter's > getting to know eachother with a bright future > awaiting them, few years later it all winds up in > that she's still a "stranger" to Joni? > I don't think it's all that unusual. They didn't grow up together. Joni knew Kelly/Kilauren as a baby and then lost her for 30 years or so. During that time, the baby grew up in another family and another life. Whatever Joni might have imagined was going on with her probably wasn't what truly was going on. Thirty years later she meets this adult woman who has her own life. I can only imagine that first meeting - there must have been a lot of staring at one another, especially on Joni's part, looking for that little baby in the young woman. I think people are mostly strangers to one another anyway, no matter how well they know each other. There are always things that take us by surprise about one another. I think we often assume too much about one another. Isn't it irritating when people say to you, "Oh, I know you! I know exactly how you would act in this situation!" Often they're wrong. I don't think we ever really know each other. That's just my opinion, of course, but if you never really know someone that you DID grow up with, then imagine what it's like to be separated for so long, and then to meet again. I guess the eerie part would be recognizing things in that child that are part of you, or part of the father, and realizing how many things you actually DO have in common, despite the years and distance. And then again, to me, the songs in Travelogue and the two Joni songs on BSN are a reminiscence on things that seemed one way at the time they were first written, so it's a comparison of what was then, and what is now. I hope this makes sense. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 10:27:25 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: tea leaf Fulujah. . . these strikes, these new reports. . this sounds more and more frightening to me. . a major operation. . coming . . happening? pray for the people ( I'm not the praying kind, but I think it's good) save the soldiers save the innocent. . My friend called me last night to tell me that her brother (I'll call him Joseph), in the reserves, recently deplored to Baghdad, called his wife yesterday. . he walked two miles to get to a phone booth to tell her he loved her.. He is not overtly emotional . . He said that they are telling all women and children to leave Baghdad . .. Have you heard this about Baghdad? it sounded to me that he feels a lot of fear, feels a lot of danger How many civilian deaths is acceptable before this is all over? The children? The body count according to the US Department of Defense, www.casualties.org, The New York Times, www.iraqbodycount.net via my local "City Newspaper" in Rochester, NY states in the November 3rd issue: BO D Y C O U N T: 1,118 American Soldiers 142 Coalition Soldiers approximately 14,219 to 16,352 Iraq civilians killed in the war from the beginning of the war and occupation to Nov. 3rd. ~A recent survey published by Lancet medical journal estimates as many as 100,000 Iraqi civilians killed. What's up with this? I reallly don't know. How many civilians dead is acceptable to you (when all is said and done)? How many soldiers dead is acceptable to you? Really, how many? "newsreels rattle. . . she plants her garden in the spring he does the winter shoveling sleep little darlin'! This is your happy home Don't have kids when you get grown Because this word is shattered The wise are mourning- The fools are joking Oh- what does it matter? The wash needs ironing And the fire needs stoking." Happy birthday Joni my words cannot express the gift you bring stardust, golden Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:33:15 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Besides, the first time > I heard WTRF and Chinese Cafe, I had no idea (I > doubt that many of us did) > about Kilauren and that whole story, so here's the > way I interpreted the lyric: > > "Your kids are growing up straight and my child's a > stranger" : This just > says that one parent sees another parent as having > done a better job of > parenting than they have, making the observation > that the other has a closer > relationship with their kids than they do. > Now that you mention that, Bob, when this song came out, I read Joni's "child" as being her own self (or possibly and to a lesser degree, her art). I realize it doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of "I bore her" because a person can't really bear herself (well, yes, she can, if it has the meaning of being able to put up with oneself). I just figured she meant that she was somehow stuck in this childish/youthful phase herself, looking at her friend who was all growed-up now, with kids of her own, acting like a big lady, whereas Joni was still playing around, with her music and her various love affairs, somehow stuck in childhood; and yet, she has aged and doesn't really recognize her old self anymore ("My child's a stranger.") I saw that part as a sort of questioning of herself now that she has reached a certain age and wondering whether her life could have or should have taken a different direction earlier on. "Nothing lasts for long". Youth has gone and in so many ways, she has moved on, but still stayed in the same place. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:59:40 -0600 From: Subject: Nov. 7 Happy 61st birthday, Joni!! Thanks for the music. Thanks for the memories. Thanks for all you've given us over the years. And, in doing whatever gives you pleasure in the years to come, may your happiness never cease: really. With gratitude and deep appreciation, Mary, in Wisconsin. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 19:00:39 +0100 From: Subject: Buon Compleanno Joni, Buon compleanno. Grazie per esistere. Con affetto Angela ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:20:02 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" Bob, First of all, sorry for placing the song in the wrong album. ("slapping myself in shame") ok. Well, i can only speak for myself, but when i heard "Chinese Caf'" (the original version) i instantly realized that Joni has a daughter. I had no idea where that child popped up from, and like you (though not for the same reason like you, as you'll soon undrestand) i thought that "couldn't raise her" meant that the daughter was an anti-mother-rebel-teen, for i had no idea about the giving up and the adoption thing at all. You must understand that all i knew about Joni's history - up to lets say 10 years ago - was what Joni sang about, and that was my only "source", and that was good enough for me. Honest! I had no idea that "I had a king" was about C. Mitchell, i had no idea she was even married to him nor did i know who the hell he was, i had no idea that "For the roses" was about James, I had no idea who "amelia" was, etc' etc' etc' - i had no idea of nothing at all rather than my own interpetation for the lyrics. So, having no idea of Joni's real life, but rather learning (and often learning it up side down and totaly wrong) about it from her lyrics alone, i thought "Oh, that's nice, she has a daughter". Confused, dear?:) Well, i was confused too, because i thought that Larry was her first husband and couldn't understand how on earth they managed to make a baby that fast! Honest! Not kidding here at all! In fact, i even recall that back then i thought that Larry and Joni gave birth to a child and then gave her up for adoption! Honest! Not kidding here at all Nu. 2! Then, once the internet era started and i joined the list and started learning the real facts (and i'm still learning, and loving to finaly be able to undrestand where my imagination meets the reality and where it doesn't) - and when Kilaurent "joined us" - i understood for the first time what that lyric was all about. (and btw, Bob, you say that back then you had no idea about Kilaurent and the whole story - fine - but surely you realized that Joni has a daughter when you first heard "My child's a stranger, i bore her...", no? Or you knew that beofre? Or you thought it's a metaphore? Or what? You've confused me...:) Back to the issue which is "My child's a stranger" on Travelogue. I have to disagree with you, Bob. I know for sure (and even recall reading something Joni said about Travelogue) that Joni would have not covered songs that she DIDN'T STAND BEHIND THEIR WORDS, and saying that the songs on Travelogue were chosen for being beautiful is true, but not the whole truth. I don't think that Joni was going over all of her songs going "hey, this one is so beautiful, i just have to reocrd it again". I think, and you should really start worry when I THINK, that Joni's intention was to produce a "new" album by using old songs, meaning, choosing older lyrics as "new" lyrics, not a re-run of a chapter in her diary, but rather a new chapter. And if Chelsea isn't there - it's beacuse, imho, it had nothing to do with Joni's new chapter or her state at that time, as beautiful as it may be. And i'll go further and say - i don't even think she's was trying to tell us "those lyrics are as relevant to me as they were back then" but rather "those are "new" lyrics that state my postion as it is TODAY". Not too sure at all if i made myself clear, but in case i somehow did (surely i'm not the only insane person here, right?), singing "My child's a stranger" on Travelogue means that even after they met again, spent time together, got closer and had hopes to become "familiar" - she's still a stranger to her. My question was WHY she's still a stranger to her. Wanna start a fight with me about that, Bob? Well, let's go outside this bar and i'll show you who's the man! :)))) xxx I'm moving on to Chathrine's reply, saw it in my inbox, but didn't open it yet. Maybe she also wants to start a fight...i'll show her...bewear, Catherine, i'm about to open your post!:) Nuri SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: **While in the CMIARS version of "Chinese caf'" the lyric "My child's a stranger" is easy to undersand for the simple fact that Joni might have crossed the street and pass by Kilaurent without even noticing she's her daughter - i don't undersant what made Joni include the same song on Travelogue, knowing that the "My child's a stranger" lyric is part of it. Nuri, Firstly Chinese Cafe is on WTRF, not CM, but no matter. CM certainly could have used a song or two that was that good. Secondly I think Joni included it on Tlog because it's a great song, not necessarily because it still defined her 20 years later. Bes zbliez gyeaez peqtez yl blil`e do bilei dixgim yl vcw edharez yl yaz`i arfxz hlqwes yapd (`gc dhlqwetim dx`yepim), bilei kzni-dyny, dnv`z dncgem dx`yeo, gwixez rl ddzpdbez yl nhehlz, dqaxz db`ez edytl a`nvrez dytrz dnyikd yl dixg erec. `elm dzxend dgyead aiezx yl blil`e di` dbiyd dgcyd ydvib ldapz zdlikim hariim: dyiney anzinhiwd. lnyl, blil`e diddx`yeo yz`x `z dfno kiyx - "vix dfno". k`yx `pgpe nyxhhim bxs yl tepwvid yae `gc dvixim de` vix dfno - `pgpe niiynim `z `gz nzbliezie dnxkfiez yl blil`e. blil`e dzgil `z ndtikz d"nzinhifvid" yl dtiqiwd - kl dzdlikim egewi dhar nze`xim epgwxim arfxz nzinhiwd. kti y`nx blil`e: "qtx dhar pkza aytz dnzinhiwd". , so here's the way I interpreted the lyric: "Your kids are growing up straight and my child's a stranger" : This just says that one parent sees another parent as having done a better job of parenting than they have, making the observation that the other has a closer relationship with their kids than they do. "I bore her": A brilliant double-entendre, reflecting the same sentiment as above; I not only gave birth to her (bore her) but I'm totally uninteresting and irrelevant to her (bore her). "but I could not raise her": Much of the same sentiment, again bemoaning the fact that giving birth to a child and bringing up a child are very different challenges. Many parents don't give up their children for adoption, they spend their lives with them, yet they never really know them, they essentially don't "raise" them. Even knowing now what I didn't know then about Joni/Kilauren, the song works for me as a personal exhortation and as a universal parental lamentation. Given this universal interpretation of the song, I don't see anything that prohibits Joni from re-recording it, or performing it or anything of the sort. It would be like saying she couldn't sing "Chelsea Morning" anymore because she doesn't live in NYC's Chelsea district. Bob NP: Cyril Ornadel, "Both Sides Now" Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:24:01 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Something i don't understand and wanted to share with you and ask > you... > > While in the CMIARS version of "Chinese caf'" the lyric "My child's a > stranger" is easy to undersand for the simple fact that Joni might > have crossed the street and pass by Kilaurent without even noticing > she's her daughter - i don't undersant what made Joni include the > same song on Travelogue, knowing that the "My child's a stranger" > lyric is part of it. Some very interesting comments and interpretations of this song from Catherine and Bob . Personally, I got it almost right away if I remember correctly. Something in me had always suspected that Joni was talking about herself in 'Little Green' and 'Chinese Cafe' confirmed that for me. That being said, I think Joni's choice of songs for 'Travelogue' had more to do with musicality and how the songs would lend themselves to reworking than what they said lyrically. All of Joni's songs come from some specific point of her life and they don't necessarily represent her present state of mind. The line 'my child's a stranger' was where she was when she wrote 'Chinese Cafe' and has nothing to do with the relationship she was developing with Kilauren at the time of recording the song for 'Travelogue'. While we're talking about this song, does anybody else feel that Joni's inclusion of 'Unchained Melody' has an underlying meaning? Ever since the truth about 'Little Green' came out, I have thought she was singing the song to that lost child. 'I've hungered for your touch a long lonely time/Time goes by so slowly and time can do so much/Are you still mine?....God speed your love to me.' . > On TTT's "Stay In Touch" she writes that "our roles aren't clear" > moving to "Til we build a firm foundation" and ending it with "So, we > should just surrender ,Let fate and duty shape us, Let light hearts > make us, Let the worries hush, In the middle of this continent ,In > the middle of our time on Earth, We receive one another" making it > seem that it's the begining of the mother and daughter's getting to > know eachother with a bright future awaiting them, few years later it > all winds up in that she's still a "stranger" to Joni? Joni had written all of the material for 'Taming the Tiger' before she and Kilauren were reunited. She has said that 'Stay In Touch' is a good description of the start of her relationship with her daughter after they had found one another. But the song itself was written before the reunion and therefore, is not about the reunion. I believe it was more about her relationship with Donald Freed at the time. Of course, it could be that Joni was having a sub-conscious emotional premonition. I wouldn't put it past her. Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:38:56 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" Catherine McKay wrote: > And then again, to me, the songs in Travelogue and the > two Joni songs on BSN are a reminiscence on things > that seemed one way at the time they were first > written, so it's a comparison of what was then, and > what is now. I like this, Catherine, and I think it's very apt. It reminds me of the voice over at the being of the film 'Julia' which is taken from the beginning of Lillian Hellman's book 'Pentimento': 'Old paint on canvas, as it ages, sometimes becomes transparent. When that happens it is possible, in some pictures, to see the original lines: a tree will show through a woman's dress, a child makes way for a dog, a large boat is no longer on an open sea. That is called pentimento because the painter "repented," changed his mind. Perhaps it would be as well to say that the old conception, replaced by a later choice, is a way of seeing and then seeing again. That is all I mean about the people in this book. The paint has aged now and I wanted to see what was there for me once, what is there for me now.' Maybe that's what 'Travelogue' is about. Maybe not. But I'm sure Joni would love having it described in terms of painting! Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:07:29 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" Oh. Thank God. Catherine understood me. A daughter being a stranger to her mother...that's so sad...so sad...i recall the "no doubt, that's always been a tricky one for me" lyric from "Stay in Touch", and it reminds of those genetic and skin tissues tests where the lab informs a mother "no doubt - this is indeed your daughter". So scary, and messy, and sad, sad, sad...Remember "Secrest and Lies", the British film? There it's even a "worse" case - bacause the mother is white and the daughter is black. The mother in that film, same as Joni, kept the whole thing as a secret from nearly everyone, and once the daughter she gave up right after baring her when she was 16 y.o. finds her, she doesn't want to do anything with her. At the begining, that is. Then she realizes that she needs her daughter and they start dating and meeting and chating, still keeping it as a secret between the both of them. Then the mother decides to let the whole world know that the black girl is indeed the baby she bore, and the end is so happy...so happy... btw, Catherine, i read your other reply regarding what went through your mind when you first heard the song. Your interpetaion to what you heard back then is lovely, and i mean it, honest, but i wonder - when JONI MITCHELL tells you that "MY CHILD'S A STRANGER, I BORE HER" - is'nt it plain to see that "HER CHILD'S A STRANGER, SHE BORE HER"?!:)lol! Sometimes were all getting a bit to analitic when it comes to poetry. Sometime were all rushing to find the deeper meaning instead of hearing what is simply said. Maybe the only reason i instantly understood that Joni is a mother, is, after all, the fact that i always believd whatever she wrote as only a blind fool Joni fan like me would. Thank you for your ever-so-true-viewing-life post, Catherine. Nuri Catherine McKay wrote: - --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > Something i don't understand and wanted to share > with you and ask you... > > While in the CMIARS version of "Chinese caf'" the > lyric "My child's a stranger" is easy to undersand > for the simple fact that Joni might have crossed the > street and pass by Kilaurent without even noticing > she's her daughter - i don't undersant what made > Joni include the same song on Travelogue, knowing > that the "My child's a stranger" lyric is part of > it. > On TTT's "Stay In Touch" she writes that "our roles > aren't clear" moving to "Til we build a firm > foundation" and ending it with "So, we should just > surrender ,Let fate and duty shape us, Let light > hearts make us, Let the worries hush, In the middle > of this continent ,In the middle of our time on > Earth, We receive one another" making it seem that > it's the begining of the mother and daughter's > getting to know eachother with a bright future > awaiting them, few years later it all winds up in > that she's still a "stranger" to Joni? > I don't think it's all that unusual. They didn't grow up together. Joni knew Kelly/Kilauren as a baby and then lost her for 30 years or so. During that time, the baby grew up in another family and another life. Whatever Joni might have imagined was going on with her probably wasn't what truly was going on. Thirty years later she meets this adult woman who has her own life. I can only imagine that first meeting - there must have been a lot of staring at one another, especially on Joni's part, looking for that little baby in the young woman. I think people are mostly strangers to one another anyway, no matter how well they know each other. There are always things that take us by surprise about one another. I think we often assume too much about one another. Isn't it irritating when people say to you, "Oh, I know you! I know exactly how you would act in this situation!" Often they're wrong. I don't think we ever really know each other. That's just my opinion, of course, but if you never really know someone that you DID grow up with, then imagine what it's like to be separated for so long, and then to meet again. I guess the eerie part would be recognizing things in that child that are part of you, or part of the father, and realizing how many things you actually DO have in common, despite the years and distance. And then again, to me, the songs in Travelogue and the two Joni songs on BSN are a reminiscence on things that seemed one way at the time they were first written, so it's a comparison of what was then, and what is now. I hope this makes sense. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:09:19 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" **(and btw, Bob, you say that back then you had no idea about Kilaurent and the whole story - fine - but surely you realized that Joni has a daughter when you first heard "My child's a stranger, i bore her...", no? Or you knew that beofre? Or you thought it's a metaphore? Or what? You've confused me...:) I did not consider the song to be autobiographical, so it made perfect sense to me. I actually heard/owned WTRF before Blue, so that "Joni had a baby" seed of an idea from Little Green was not on my mind. I didn't know any of her personal history, I just enjoyed and admired her as a writer. As far as I was concerned, Joni had written a song from the perspective of a middle-aged woman who was experiencing some of the crises that come with that age. I mean, do you by the same token think that Joni did time in the Magdalene Laundries? No she wrote a song from the perspective of the young girl imprisoned. Likewise, most of HOSL is portraits of others and not self-portrait, so it's clear that Joni writes songs that are drawn from her own expereinces and also from others. Her gift is finding a common thread that all of relate to, and by doing it so well we tend to feel that she's ALWAYS writing from her own experiences. Which is certainly NOT to say that Cafe isn't autobiographical; while I may not have thought so at the time, I do in fact see it now in a different light, now that I have the benefit of additional historical facts & information. Hope that makes sense to you now. Bob NP: The birthday girl herself, "Just Like This Train" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:12:28 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Kate's Joni Birthday gig! Hi Kate, Just wanted to say "break a leg" to you and all of your performers in tonight's Tribute show. I've put on the ruby slippers and said "There's no place like Santa Barbara" over & over, but to no avail - I remain stuck in redneckville. But I'll be there in spirit, and I look forward to your report! Bob NP: Sam Cooke, "A Change Is Gonna Come" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 20:16:30 +0100 From: Subject: Buon Compleanno Buon compleanno, JONI. Grazie per esistere . Con affetto Angela ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 19:35 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder) Subject: Re; I voted for Bush and Birthday wishes I too am Joni Only digest but want to echo Mags' moving endorsement of John Calimee's deeply felt and powerful post. Where does Joni Only start and finish? Well, I guess it's just another Borderline. When I read the posts, several lines from (much derided) DED came to my mind, not least: Lord, there's danger in this land You get witch-hunts and wars When church and state hold hands. Fuck it! Tonight I'm going dancing With the drag queens and punks...' Take care all those list members hurting and fearful out there. For what it's worth, my love is going out as strong as I can send it and I'd like to suggest we all go and put on those dancing shoes. It's Joni's birthday after all. Happy Birthday, Joan. Don't you just have a line or two for every occasion? Thanks you for so much, Love Anita xx ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:33:28 -0800 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Happy Birthday! Joni, I don't really think you lurk on this listserv. But I do think there are people in your orbit who at least keep a finger on our collective pulse. So with that in mind, I would like to wish you all the best as you begin yet another orbit around the sun. Through the years, I have turned to you for music of substance, quality and originality. From the very first record to the most recent, you have *never* let me down. The last has always been as fresh, provocative and beautiful as what came before. Thank you for voicing so many of my thoughts and feelings so eloquently through the years. For me, nobody is your equal when it comes to expressing in words and music what it is to be human. Your music has helped me to grow as a human being in so many ways and pushed me into discovering many wonderful things that I might have missed otherwise. Whatever road you choose to take and whatever life brings you, I hope it brings you joy, fulfillment and peace of mind. Happy Birthday, Joni! Mark Scott Shoreline Washington ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 16:39:42 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: not a train station, Nuri Nuri, That was a beautiful post. Marianne Nuri wrote: This is a non-political and njc post. No matter what dfrench wrote, i only hope she wasn't attacked in a way that would made her leave our list. Several years ago i wrote a post and got so scared after reading the responds to it, i instantly signed off the list. I wasn't angry, i didn't sign off as a protest. I simply felt unwanted and very scared and ashamed. After a year or so, i signed in back again, and ever that day i couldn't have been happier being with all of you once again. I don't know how many of us are members on other lists or message boards. I used to be, and couldn't believe my eyes when seeing how members drove other members out and couldn't care less, not to mention that insulting and humiliating posts were a regular thing on those lists and message boards. Surely this is not the case on our list, and i have nothing against debates, jc-wise or njc-wise. Sharon once told me, in a friendly and loving way that is, that there's something very naive in my writing. That made me smile. Do forgive me if what i'm to write next would sound naive or even silly. Friends - lets do our best not to drive any member out of here. Once one's "let me out of here!" post is reaches the list, while we may not even understand what went wrong, lets do our best to change one's mind from leaving. May this place be a home, and not a train station. I'm not even going to say that the thing that's binding us is Joni. I for one, have no explanetion for our brotherhood. Not all of us are lionhearted. I think we're all very sensetive, but some are of more sensetive in a way that they they're easly hurt or frightened, child-like. Some of us are witty and some of us are foolish. Some of us spend hours writing a post, while others spill their ideas in a flesh. Some of us are politicaly-correct and some of us write whatever they feel like writing. Some of us check the jmdl posts every now and then and some of us can't await the next post appearing in their inbox. Some of us are old. Some of us are young. Some of us are working 24/7, have families and lots of friends. Some of us are sitting alone in a room, no one's ringing, no one's knocking at the door, and their only hope, happiness, comfort and light in the dark is this place. Love you all, Nuri _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:34:01 -0600 From: jrrose Subject: Joni Birthday Special Monday On Internet Radio I'll be saluting Joni's birthday by playing lots of her music on this week's "Hidden Treasures" show. The show is broadcast tomorrow(and every Monday) from 12-4 PM CST at http://uicradio.ws/ . You can request your favorite songs by Joni by emailing me at rose60612@yahoo.com or calling 312-413-2191 during the show. I hope you can join me! John Rose Listen to "HIDDEN TREASURES OF ROCK 'N' ROLL", some of the best music you've never heard,every Monday on the net from 12-4PM CST at http://uicradio.pages.uic.edu/! ! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 16:13:28 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: Happy Birthday! Do we suppose our dear Joan ventures here? If so Joni Mitchell, I will have to add my sentiments to what has been written here. I find you genius and without your guidance my life would be much less than what it is now and the future much less safe. Thank you, and love from mack. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark or Travis" To: "JMDL" Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 1:33 PM Subject: Happy Birthday! > Joni, > I don't really think you lurk on this listserv. But I do think there are people in your orbit who > at least keep a finger on our collective pulse. So with that in mind, I would like to wish you all > the best as you begin yet another orbit around the sun. > > Through the years, I have turned to you for music of substance, quality and originality. From the > very first record to the most recent, you have *never* let me down. The last has always been as > fresh, provocative and beautiful as what came before. Thank you for voicing so many of my thoughts > and feelings so eloquently through the years. For me, nobody is your equal when it comes to > expressing in words and music what it is to be human. Your music has helped me to grow as a human > being in so many ways and pushed me into discovering many wonderful things that I might have missed > otherwise. Whatever road you choose to take and whatever life brings you, I hope it brings you joy, > fulfillment and peace of mind. > > Happy Birthday, Joni! > > Mark Scott > Shoreline Washington ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:47:59 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: "As far as I was concerned, Joni had written a song from the perspective of a middle-aged woman who was experiencing some of the crises that come with that age. I mean, do you by the same token think that Joni did time in the Magdalene Laundries?" Of course i didn't, Bob, and with all respect, it's a bit insulting even asking me that. Even if i had no idea of Joni's life-story and was "only" a "bit" familiar with her work, i'd never even imagine that "The Magdalene Laundries" is an autobigraphical song, nor do i play albums backwards and look for hidden messages from Hitler. When i first heard "Chinese Caf'" i instantly knew that Joni was singing about herself. Why? Instincts and a secret method my Grandmother taught me of recognising when a Joni song is autobigraphical. As for songs like the one's on HOSL, i'm sad to inform you that they never "seemed as her own experiences" to me. au contraire, my friend, i could easily tell that Joni was viewing other peoples lives while constantly making sure that she's keeping distance from what they are and what she is. In my mind there's always a big "look, it's them - not me" sign hanging from above when i hear those songs. (but that's another issue for another thread) When i asked about the "i was born and raised in N.Y city" i was misunderstood again, for i already knew the song wasn't autobiographical, i was just trying to understand who that "i" was, and your reply, and others, helped me out off my imagination's block. And if anyone thought that debates about Bush vs. Kerry are a mess - you should really get scared as hell once a Joni lyric debate starts - you go and tell them, Bob!:) OK. So - does anyone other than myself finds that "Win" and "Loose" are NOT the both sides of life at all? Nuri Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:31:32 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" Mark or Travis wrote: "I think Joni's choice of songs for 'Travelogue' had more to do with musicality and how the songs would lend themselves to reworking than what they said lyrically." I don't think so, though i totaly respect your point of view .Let's settle for a combination of what we both think, for only Joni knows the reasons behind choosing those songs. "The line 'my child's a stranger' was where she was when she wrote 'Chinese Cafe' and has nothing to do with the relationship she was developing with Kilauren at the time of recording the song for 'Travelogue'." And i think that Joni is a genius when it comes to taking the past and the future and turning them both into the present. "Joni had written all of the material for 'Taming the Tiger' before she and Kilauren were reunited." Thank you for making that clear, Mark. Like i said, i'm still learning the real facts behind Joni's work, and wasn't aware of that fact till now. And if don't mind - could you please help me learn another fact that i know nothing about? Was TTT recorded (not written) while Joni and Donald were together or after they broke up? It's been bothering me for some time now, and i'm really interested in finding the answer. I'll be waiting to hear from you. Thanks again, Nuri Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 17:00:22 -0800 (PST) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Re: Buon Compleanno (The Hebrew Version) anginca@tin.it wrote: "Joni, Buon compleanno. Grazie per esistere. Con affetto Angela" now my turn... geveret joni, mazal tov, sheyhiyu lach rak chaim tovim, tamshichi leashen chofshi, simi al kulam katzutz, kulam mimeyle bakis hakatan shleach, elef neshikot, ima kvar lo choshevest shashirim shelach medakim, ve-al tasimi lev le ma she Bob Muller kotev, ki hoo kvar mvulbal mirov caverim, ma gam she hoo neged ishun, kulanu cholim alayich, srufim alayich, metim alayich, ve oy vaavoy lekulanu im lo haya lanu otach baolam haze. Titkashri matayshehoo, beseder? Yalla, motek, ani yotze lirkod im baali velharim kosit champania lichvodech. Shelach lanetzach, Nuriel p.s. bemida ve at lo mevina ivrit, al tikansi le panica, has ve shalom - gam li lakchu 20 vemashu shanim leahvin ma ze 'scooner'. Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 17:04:34 -0800 (PST) From: mags h Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" Bob asked of Nuri <<>> and now moi: while Joni did not do time in the Magdalene Laundries, she was trapped against all odds in a society who shunned and shamed her for conceiving a child out of wedlock...(gotta love that word). I feel that her experience as a single mother in 1965 informs the strength, passion and emotionality of this song. in my most humble opinion of course. Good for Joni and Kilauren for rising above it all. I always thought it was incredibly brave of Joni to write and record the songs about Kilauren, and it is my hope that those songs of theirstory have soothed that terrible loss. bonne fete cher Joan Mags np: Venice, 2 m sessies, Netherlands - ----- what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail? - ----- Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 20:33:26 -0500 From: Subject: Happy Birthday, Joni Thanks for all of the stories, collaborations, courage, and ideas. You may be the 2nd most influential songwriter of your generation but I'd rather listen to you than anyone. I don't know you personally and I won't try to. I don't need to. From this fan's perspective, you've delivered more varied and superlative work than any other writer of our generation. Lord knows this generation has been blessed with a rich constellation of talented writers but you are surely the brightest star. We love you though we don't stalk you. Okay so far? All the best, Lama Jim L'Hommedieu Covington, KY daily contributor to the JMDL since 1955 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 21:34:51 -0500 From: Lori Fye Subject: Happy Birthday, Joni! Hope you had a gorgeous day!! Thanks for ... well, for everything. Love, Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 22:28:21 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: "My Child's A Stranger" --- Nuriel Tobias wrote: > btw, Catherine, i read your other reply regarding > what went through your mind when you first heard the > song. Your interpetaion to what you heard back then > is lovely, and i mean it, honest, but i wonder - > when JONI MITCHELL tells you that "MY CHILD'S A > STRANGER, I BORE HER" - is'nt it plain to see that > "HER CHILD'S A STRANGER, SHE BORE HER"?!:)lol! > Sometimes were all getting a bit to analitic when it > comes to poetry. Sometime were all rushing to find > the deeper meaning instead of hearing what is simply > said. Maybe the only reason i instantly understood > that Joni is a mother, is, after all, the fact that > i always believd whatever she wrote as only a blind > fool Joni fan like me would. Have you heard the expression, "Hide in plain sight'? Maybe that's what Joni was doing. Honestly, I had no clue she had had a child, so my mind didn't even go there, not with "Little Green" nor with "Chinese Cafe." I generally don't sit around and analyze things - - it's too much work - LOL. I'm more of an impressionistic thinker - I just let ideas wash over me and something gets left behind (like seaweed on the shore?) It's kind of scary, but a bit of a trip too. (Maybe when she said, "I bore her," she meant "She finds me boring." LOL!) ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #318 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)