From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #257 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, September 8 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 257 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni in LA Times ["Kakki" ] Joni's and her guitar [BRIANASYMES@aol.com] Re: Joni in LA Times ["mackoliver" ] joni-wtrf ["mackoliver" ] RE: JMDL Digest V2004 #371 ["Justin Russ" ] Re: joni-wtrf [Catherine McKay ] Fwd: Beth Patterson on Phlash.net [Michaelpaz@aol.com] Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #371 [Randy Remote ] Re: joni-wtrf [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] This article made me mad ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: joni-wtrf ["Mark or Travis" ] Elvis Costello, Joni Mitchell, & The Torch Song Tradition [SCJoniGuy@aol.] Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #371 [Catherine McKay ] Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #371 ["Kakki" ] Today's Library Links: September 8 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: Elvis Costello, Joni Mitchell, & The Torch Song Tradition ["Music Is ] Re: This article made me mad [deeperwants-cul ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 09:00:33 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni in LA Times There is some of the usual Joni background in the article (it is part of a songwriters series) but here are some excerpts that are from Hilburn's recent interview with her: ***** "Yet despite the anguish beneath the songs, the music was never morbid. In fact, it was often jaunty, worldly, witty and, above all, honest. In a time of rising feminism, she never made romance into dogma. HOME IS WHERE THE ART IS: "I wish I were better at painting," she says. "Great thing, though, having a challenge." Genaro Molina / LAT She's still trim and you can see in her eyes and cheekbones the features that caused her photo to be on thousands of dorm walls. The glow leaves her face, however, when asked if she plans to display or sell the paintings. She might show them in a museum at some point, but that's it. "I don't want to get into merchandising them," she says sharply. "I want nothing to do with galleries, even in terms of exhibitions. When money meets up with art, there is a lot of pain, and it's the pain of ignorance, and I don't want to meet up with that ignorance again. My work is personal, too vulnerable. That's why I quit making records." ***** "On this afternoon, she talks about how she developed her style, but the most essential quality of a songwriter, she suggests, may be mental toughness. Like Dylan, and fellow Canadian Neil Young, Mitchell has fallen in and out of favor over the years. She has been revered, imitated - and ridiculed for being esoteric and out of touch. Ultimately, she was not tough enough. "Everything in my later career, with few exceptions, has been compared unfavorably to my early work," she says matter-of-factly. "I've done 16 records hearing people say, 'You're not as good as you used to be. Finally, I said, 'OK, I agree with you.' " Mitchell announced she was leaving the music business in 2002 and hasn't looked back. "My goal as a writer is more to comfort than to disturb," she says, explaining her decision. "Most of the art created in this particular culture is shallow and shocking, and I can't create music for this social climate." She pauses. In conversation, she is outspoken, funny, self-deprecating and stimulating. But she doesn't find anything funny about the topic at hand. "There's not much room for subtleties today. It's the shallow, flashy heart that grabs the attention; chase scenes, atrocities. Mass murder is probably the favorite entertainment of the American culture at this point." ***** "Actually, her drive for original sounds began way back in the early clubs days. She credits singer-songwriter Eric Andersen with first helping expand her musical horizons. "Eric was an important catalyst because he showed me open-G tuning on the guitar," she says. "That opened a whole world for me because standard tuning was hackneyed. Everything was mined out. But open-G tuning, which is what Keith Richards plays in, opened new doors. It coughed up a possibility for chordal music I hadn't heard before. "Immediately, it gave me a sense I could get at the melodies I heard in my head. I only wrote two songs in standard tuning in my whole life. If I didn't learn that tuning I probably would have quit or I would have gone to the piano." Between the unusual tuning and chord changes, Mitchell has proven frustrating to musicians who wanted to copy her style or play her songs. As a writer for Acoustic Guitar magazine once noted, her guitar playing doesn't really sound like a guitar. "What she plays, from the way she tunes her strings to the way she strokes them with her right hand, is utterly off the chart of how most of us approach the guitar," the writer noted." ***** "I'm so happy," she says. "Such good friends. So much in love with life, but romantic love is over for me. I'm very happy about this leg of my life. I wish I were better at painting. Great thing, though, having a challenge - painting personal things, which have their own validity." Like other artists before her, such as one of her heroes, jazz trumpeter Miles Davis, Mitchell sees no need to put herself on display for a public that only wants to hear the greatest hits over and over. "Miles was like that at the end," she says. "He wasn't trying to be rude on stage when he would wait for an hour and a half to find someone who inspired him to play two notes. His golden age and his period of exploration was behind him. I just don't want to do it anymore. So I'm painting privately with my private adjudication." [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of 14094371.jpg] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:17:07 EDT From: BRIANASYMES@aol.com Subject: Joni's and her guitar Joni's voice was the vessel, the ship that traveled through the sea of our dreams. The guitar as she played it were the sails. Chuck Mitchell was the first captain, he brought tears to many women in the audience playing his 12 string during the dark cafe days he played in almost a classical style. But while in Detroit she was introduced to the Electric blues bands "Muddy Waters" and this freed her tunings from simple folk song arrangements. After this Tom Rush, James Taylor David Crosby+Graham Gnash all pollinated her Red Tulips. And this was just the start of a voyage of my life in love with Joni's songs. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:55:05 -0500 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: Joni in LA Times Thanks for that Kakki. I love Joan even more than before after reading it. Not happen often does it that one loves the artist as much as they love the music put forth by that artist. mack > There is some of the usual Joni background in the article (it is part of a > songwriters series) but here are some excerpts that are from Hilburn's > recent interview with her: > > ***** > > "Yet despite the anguish beneath the songs, the music was never morbid. In > fact, it was often jaunty, worldly, witty and, above all, honest. In a time > of rising feminism, she never made romance into dogma. > > HOME IS WHERE THE ART IS: "I wish I were better at painting," she > says. "Great thing, though, having a challenge." > > Genaro Molina / LAT > > She's still trim and you can see in her eyes and cheekbones the features > that caused her photo to be on thousands of dorm walls. The glow leaves her > face, however, when asked if she plans to display or sell the paintings. She > might show them in a museum at some point, but that's it. > > "I don't want to get into merchandising them," she says sharply. "I want > nothing to do with galleries, even in terms of exhibitions. When money meets > up with art, there is a lot of pain, and it's the pain of ignorance, and I > don't want to meet up with that ignorance again. My work is personal, too > vulnerable. That's why I quit making records." > > ***** > > "On this afternoon, she talks about how she developed her style, but the > most essential quality of a songwriter, she suggests, may be mental > toughness. Like Dylan, and fellow Canadian Neil Young, Mitchell has fallen > in and out of favor over the years. She has been revered, imitated - and > ridiculed for being esoteric and out of touch. > > Ultimately, she was not tough enough. "Everything in my later career, with > few exceptions, has been compared unfavorably to my early work," she says > matter-of-factly. "I've done 16 records hearing people say, 'You're not as > good as you used to be. Finally, I said, 'OK, I agree with you.' " > > Mitchell announced she was leaving the music business in 2002 and hasn't > looked back. "My goal as a writer is more to comfort than to disturb," she > says, explaining her decision. "Most of the art created in this particular > culture is shallow and shocking, and I can't create music for this social > climate." > > She pauses. In conversation, she is outspoken, funny, self-deprecating and > stimulating. But she doesn't find anything funny about the topic at hand. > "There's not much room for subtleties today. It's the shallow, flashy heart > that grabs the attention; chase scenes, atrocities. Mass murder is probably > the favorite entertainment of the American culture at this point." > > ***** > > "Actually, her drive for original sounds began way back in the early clubs > days. She credits singer-songwriter Eric Andersen with first helping expand > her musical horizons. > > "Eric was an important catalyst because he showed me open-G tuning on the > guitar," she says. "That opened a whole world for me because standard tuning > was hackneyed. Everything was mined out. But open-G tuning, which is what > Keith Richards plays in, opened new doors. It coughed up a possibility for > chordal music I hadn't heard before. > > "Immediately, it gave me a sense I could get at the melodies I heard in my > head. I only wrote two songs in standard tuning in my whole life. If I > didn't learn that tuning I probably would have quit or I would have gone to > the piano." > > Between the unusual tuning and chord changes, Mitchell has proven > frustrating to musicians who wanted to copy her style or play her songs. As > a writer for Acoustic Guitar magazine once noted, her guitar playing doesn't > really sound like a guitar. "What she plays, from the way she tunes her > strings to the way she strokes them with her right hand, is utterly off the > chart of how most of us approach the guitar," the writer noted." > > ***** > > "I'm so happy," she says. "Such good friends. So much in love with life, but > romantic love is over for me. I'm very happy about this leg of my life. I > wish I were better at painting. Great thing, though, having a challenge - > painting personal things, which have their own validity." > > Like other artists before her, such as one of her heroes, jazz trumpeter > Miles Davis, Mitchell sees no need to put herself on display for a public > that only wants to hear the greatest hits over and over. > > "Miles was like that at the end," she says. "He wasn't trying to be rude on > stage when he would wait for an hour and a half to find someone who inspired > him to play two notes. His golden age and his period of exploration was > behind him. I just don't want to do it anymore. So I'm painting privately > with my private adjudication." > > [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of 14094371.jpg] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:59:43 -0500 From: "mackoliver" Subject: joni-wtrf Important to remember for those that haven't heard all of Joni to keep listening until all has been experienced. Looking at polls, reading comments, and judging by the opinions of others almost stopped me from trying WTRF. Like TTT, find it to be magnificent, thought provoking, and simply soothing in a haunting fashion. mack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 17:45:36 -0400 From: "Justin Russ" Subject: RE: JMDL Digest V2004 #371 >Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 22:56:01 -0700 >From: "Kakki" >Subject: Re: Joni in LA Times > >Yes, she literally said "no one wants to listen to what I have to say >anymore." And we did heartily disagree with her. I posted earlier about >the Hilburn article but it has not yet seemed to appear on the list. The >article is so well done and I was thinking of that day talking with Joni >about the critics and how I specifically singled out Hilburn as one who has >always seemed to "get" and appreciate her. Of course, she disagreed a bit >and qualifiied that even he didn't get Mingus at first, but did eventually >;-) I remember arguing with her that I didn't get Don Juan for 20 years >but >eventually got it and she conceded that even she did not fully get some of >what she was doing until later. In the latest article Hilburn picks his >top >5 albums and top five songs. I'm with him four out of five on both lists >(but that is subjective and he probably has a better take from a critical >view). I'm quite shocked to learn that she feels this way. She may not be as widely popular in the mainstream as she was in the early to mid 70's, but that doesn't mean that her music isn't still largely appreciated by people that still care about quality songwriting. I'm 26 and I only started listening to her music about 3 years ago and she's opened up a lot of doors for me, both musically by opening my mind to music I might have overlooked in the past, as well as personally by making me look deeper at myself and the world around me. While she may not reach the number of people she once did, she should never think that there still aren't a lot of people out there that are interested in what she has to say. There are still a lot of young people that are just discovering her music now, and I don't see that changing. Music of her quality is something that will be appreciated for a long time to come, even if it's slightly under the radar of popular culture or even if it takes years for her work to be understood. _________________________________________________________________ Don't just Search. Find! http://search.sympatico.msn.ca/default.aspx The new MSN Search! Check it out! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:23:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: joni-wtrf --- mackoliver wrote: > Important to remember for those that haven't heard > all of Joni to keep > listening until all has been experienced. Looking > at polls, reading comments, > and judging by the opinions of others almost stopped > me from trying WTRF. > Like TTT, find it to be magnificent, thought > provoking, and simply soothing in > a haunting fashion. > > mack > Hey, Mack! I just ordered The Geffen set because it came down to what I consider a reasonable prize at amazon.ca - $70 CDN, whereas it was over $100 before. I love all Joni's stuff - I just love some of it more than others. Also got back my TTT, which my ex-husband had taken - the bastid! I haven't listened to it for a while, and I'd really like to - now I can. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:31:01 EDT From: Michaelpaz@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Beth Patterson on Phlash.net For all you Beth Patterson fans out there. For everyone else check it out and see what you have been missing. This shoould be amazing. Best Paz > > > My dearest loyal Bethodists... > My upcoming show at Eddie's Attic on 9/8/2004 is going to be broadcast live > on http://www.phlash.net/ . Show starts at 8 PM, EST. Soooo...if you're > looking for something to do on a Wednesday night, and you're sick of South Park > (yeah, right), check it out! You can even holler "Freebiiiird!" all you want, > and I won't hear you (although if I find out, I may bribe someone to deliver > justice anyway). > > Be well! > > Beth P. > > http://www.littlebluemen.com/ Return-path: From: Jolly8994@aol.com Full-name: Jolly8994 Message-ID: <126.4a392abd.2e6b9ff6@aol.com> Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 18:47:18 EDT Subject: Beth Patterson on Phlash.net To: Jolly8994@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5112 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c-p1 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain My dearest loyal Bethodists... My upcoming show at Eddie's Attic on 9/8/2004 is going to be broadcast live on http://www.phlash.net/ . Show starts at 8 PM, EST. Soooo...if you're looking for something to do on a Wednesday night, and you're sick of South Park (yeah, right), check it out! You can even holler "Freebiiiird!" all you want, and I won't hear you (although if I find out, I may bribe someone to deliver justice anyway). Be well! Beth P. http://www.littlebluemen.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 15:50:51 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #371 Right freakin' on, Justin. When she is talking about all the crassness and dumbing down, doesn't she realize that there are lots of cracks in the mainstream media culture facade? She could have been the queen of the Lilith Fair any time she wanted...makes you wonder if she feels like it's MTV or nothing...anyway, nice to hear that younger people are still finding Joni, and deeper things than the latest 50 Cent. RR Justin Russ wrote: > I'm quite shocked to learn that she feels this way. She may not be as > widely popular in the mainstream as she was in the early to mid 70's, but > that doesn't mean that her music isn't still largely appreciated by people > that still care about quality songwriting. > > I'm 26 and I only started listening to her music about 3 years ago and she's > opened up a lot of doors for me, both musically by opening my mind to music > I might have overlooked in the past, as well as personally by making me look > deeper at myself and the world around me. > > While she may not reach the number of people she once did, she should never > think that there still aren't a lot of people out there that are interested > in what she has to say. There are still a lot of young people that are just > discovering her music now, and I don't see that changing. Music of her > quality is something that will be appreciated for a long time to come, even > if it's slightly under the radar of popular culture or even if it takes > years for her work to be understood. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 18:50:56 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: joni-wtrf **Important to remember for those that haven't heard all of Joni to keep listening until all has been experienced. Like Joni says: "People will tell you where they've been, they'll tell you where to go, But 'til you get there YOURSELF...you never really know" I've been turned on to lots of music that I was warned against, and I've discarded lots that was highly praised, so there you go. Bob NP: Bela Fleck & The Flecktones, "That Old Thing" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:11:19 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: This article made me mad I agree with you kerry... joni has chops & she was innovative... so what that she didn't play lead which it seems is their narrowly definition of a great guitar player... they've so narrowly defined the way you play the guitar to only include a certain style... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:11:19 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: joni-wtrf Catherine McKay wrote: > > Hey, Mack! I just ordered The Geffen set because it > came down to what I consider a reasonable prize at > amazon.ca - $70 CDN, whereas it was over $100 before. > I love all Joni's stuff - I just love some of it more > than others. I finally broke down and bought it this weekend. Had a coupon for 10% off at Best Buy. I looked for 'Refuge of the Roads' and couldn't find the music section of the dvds. Finally asked a sales associate (they aren't clerks anymore, you know) and he told me where to look. So I had that and 2 other dvds in my hand that I wasn't all that excited about buying and was heading for the registers. At the last minuted I decided to check the cd box sets and lo and behold, there was the Geffen box set. So I put the other 2 non-Joni dvds back on their respective shelves and had myself a Joni day at Best Buy! Mark E. in Seattle feeling very sad that Joni feels the way she does about her music these days ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:23:30 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Elvis Costello, Joni Mitchell, & The Torch Song Tradition Thanks to my good pal David Sapp, I have been reading this great new book that examines Joni's career and writing. It's quite wonderful, I read most of it on the planes I was on this weekend. It's so intelligent and well-written, there were some parts I had to re-read several time just because they were so well-thought out. The first half of the book is all Joni, and the second is Elvis, so don't let Costello put you off snagging it in case you're not a fan of his stuff. It's a must-read for the Joni fan, even if you only read the first half. I learned a LOT of factual info about her and her writing and Larry David Smith's analysis is simply fascinating. It's so refreshing to see a writer give all of her work an even treatment, covering everything up to T'log. Way cool. Thanks David! Bob NP: Mike Ragogna, "Hello Elena" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:31:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #371 --- Randy Remote wrote: > Right freakin' on, Justin. When she is talking about > all the crassness > and dumbing down, doesn't she realize that there are > lots of > cracks in the mainstream media culture facade? She > could have > been the queen of the Lilith Fair any time she > wanted...makes > you wonder if she feels like it's MTV or > nothing...anyway, nice to > hear that younger people are still finding Joni, and > deeper things > than the latest 50 Cent. > RR Joni would never do LIlith Fair. Too many wymyn. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:58:54 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #371 Justin wrote: > While she may not reach the number of people she once did, she should never > think that there still aren't a lot of people out there that are interested > in what she has to say. There are still a lot of young people that are just > discovering her music now, and I don't see that changing. Music of her > quality is something that will be appreciated for a long time to come, even > if it's slightly under the radar of popular culture or even if it takes > years for her work to be understood. This is so true! I often meet younger people who feel the same way about Joni as I do (and did when I was the same age) - I'm always a little amazed and happily surprised when I hear them rave about her, too. I should have clarified a little as to when I told her it took me 20 years to "get" DJRD. I was telling her that in the context of loving her work so much that I wanted to understand what she had created and that it was my problem and not hers that I couldn't get it right away. Once I did get it, I thought it was one of her greatest and most brilliant works. I told her that my point was that she has always been ahead of her time, and that to me, is truly a triat of a great artist - they sometimes can "see" beyond into another world and it takes "the rest of us" some time to catch up. The Hilburn article is both wonderful and sad at the same time. Sad that the pain she has felt from some critics and maybe getting some knocks around the music and art worlds makes her want to withdraw within. I just hope she keeping painting away - whether we get to see any more paintings or not - for her own joy. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 02:03:18 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: September 8 On September 8 the following articles were published: 1985: "In Pop Music, The Outlook is Definately Bullish" - New York Times (Mention) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1103 1998: "Beatles Dominate All-Time Albums Poll" - Billboard (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=51 2001: "Words From A Woman Of Heart And Mind" - Billboard (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=677 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 01:08:29 -0500 From: "Music Is Special" Subject: Re: Elvis Costello, Joni Mitchell, & The Torch Song Tradition I haven't seen that book but its interesting that Linda Ronstadt isn't given credit for being there way ahead of most other rock and folk people. She took such grief when she worked with Nelson Riddle. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 9:23 PM Subject: Elvis Costello, Joni Mitchell, & The Torch Song Tradition > Thanks to my good pal David Sapp, I have been reading this great new book > that examines Joni's career and writing. It's quite wonderful, I read most of > it on the planes I was on this weekend. It's so intelligent and well-written, > there were some parts I had to re-read several time just because they were so > well-thought out. > The first half of the book is all Joni, and the second is Elvis, so don't > let Costello put you off snagging it in case you're not a fan of his stuff. > It's a must-read for the Joni fan, even if you only read the first half. I > learned a LOT of factual info about her and her writing and Larry David Smith's > analysis is simply fascinating. It's so refreshing to see a writer give all of > her work an even treatment, covering everything up to T'log. > > Way cool. Thanks David! > > Bob > > NP: Mike Ragogna, "Hello Elena" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 02:20:32 -0400 From: deeperwants-cul Subject: Re: This article made me mad Kate Bennett wrote: >I agree with you kerry... joni has chops & she was innovative... so what >that she didn't play lead which it seems is their narrowly definition of a >great guitar player... they've so narrowly defined the way you play the >guitar to only include a certain style... > > > > I dare any middling guitarist to follow joni's technique in Song for Sharon. Joni plays lead alright, but uses a bizzare combination of chordal hammering on and off with slides and chokes thrown in to exact the melody and feel she wants. Her guitar playing is so good, that it is her own school and most people including many excellent guitarists can only marvel at what she is doing with either hand when she plays. cul ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #257 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)