From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #256 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, September 7 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 256 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- re:Joni in LA Times [david sapp ] Joni in LA Times [Lindsay Moon ] This article made me mad ["kerry" ] Re: This article made me mad [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: This article made me mad [dsk ] Re: Joni in LA Times [frasere@intergate.ca] Re: Joni in LA Times ["Kakki" ] Today's Library Links: September 7 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:31:37 -0400 (EDT) From: david sapp Subject: re:Joni in LA Times Help - its only available to subscribers - major drag. peace, david ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 11:57:16 -0700 From: Lindsay Moon Subject: Joni in LA Times Steve, thanks so much for that info. I went online, joined for 14 days free, and enjoyed the article tremendously. Also the multimedia link at the bottom of the page is lovely too! Boy, that Robert Hilburn sure has a thing for her (thank God!) It breaks my heart where at the end Hilburn says part of the reason she quit making music is because of the fans that made critical remarks ... for God's sake, you're listening to the WRONG fans, Joni! Also interesting how she says she was born to make the innovative art, to challenge herself to reach new heights so to speak. And then she quit. Hmmm. You're telling me all that energy went into painting? But she herself said it's two different mind sets: painting is introspective and trance-like and writing lyrics is obviously filled with many thoughts and words, etc. So where does that half of the equation go when you "quit"? Well, interesting that she sees the fade-out as the reaction to finding Kilauren, that when she found her daughter, part of her search was over for good. That's at least some comfort to the rest of us. Great to see your name on the list again. Take care, Lindsay Moon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 17:46:29 -0500 From: "kerry" Subject: This article made me mad There was an article in the Milwaukee Journal today (originally from the Washington Post), entitled "No Guitar Goddesses: Why are its masters only men?" and I thought it was terrible. Here's the segment about Joni: "She (Bonnie Raitt) proved that a woman can play beautifully - many women, let's be clear, can play beautifully - but if she were a dude, she'd never be mentioned in the same company with Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page and Eddie Van Halen. That might sound sexist, but if anything it's conventional wisdom. Last year Rolling Stone magazine published a list of the 100 greatest guitarists of all time, and just two women made the cut: Joan Jett and Joni Mitchell. The weird part is how un-outrageous it seemed. Any list of the greatest actors or singers or novelists that was so male-dominated would be ridiculed. Even Jett and Mitchell, frankly, are a stretch. Jett is a fabulous rhythm guitarist, and she brought glorious tough-chick leather and swagger to rock, but that isn't the same thing as chops. Mitchell is a songwriting heroine, and she mastered tunings so exotic that after just a chord or two, you knew it was her. But she's an acoustic guitarist, and the category today is rock guitar, which is electric." For full story: http://www.jsonline.com/onwisconsin/music/sep04/256199.asp So what about the countless guitarists who were influenced by Joni? And were all 98 of the men mentioned extremely innovative and groundbreaking? Argghhhhhhh. Kerry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:17:54 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: This article made me mad **So what about the countless guitarists who were influenced by Joni? And were all 98 of the men mentioned extremely innovative and groundbreaking? Don't get too mad, Kerry - you're right on, of course, but the comparison is apples & oranges. I think this writer is only segregating the virtuosity aspect of guitar players, so Joni doesn't really fit in with the Jimis, Stevie Rays, and Erics. If you're talking about her as a pioneer/champion of alternate tunings, then she stands above everyone. If you're talking about her as a composer, then the air is very rare to be sure. She is an excellent guitarist, but she's always used (male) others to show off guitar chops in her music (Larry Carlton, Michael Landau, Pat Metheny) and her playing is more about texture & subtlety than it is about grandstanding and blazing solos. I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, I'm just trying to make you less mad. Although you know I like all of my "Kerry's" to fight back! Bob, back safe & sound from Hurricane central NP: Cindy Blackman, "Green Dolphin Street" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 21:09:47 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: This article made me mad kerry wrote: > > There was an article in the Milwaukee Journal today (originally from the > Washington Post), entitled "No Guitar Goddesses: Why are its masters only > men?" and I thought it was terrible. Here's the segment about Joni: > > > That might sound sexist, but if anything it's conventional wisdom. Last year > > Rolling Stone magazine published a list of the 100 greatest guitarists of > > all time, and just two women made the cut: Joan Jett and Joni Mitchell. The > > weird part is how un-outrageous it seemed. Any list of the greatest actors > > or singers or novelists that was so male-dominated would be ridiculed. > > Even Jett and Mitchell, frankly, are a stretch. Jett is a fabulous rhythm > > guitarist, and she brought glorious tough-chick leather and swagger to rock, > > but that isn't the same thing as chops. > > > Mitchell is a songwriting heroine, and she mastered tunings so exotic that > > after just a chord or two, you knew it was her. But she's an acoustic > > guitarist, and the category today is rock guitar, which is electric." > > For full story: http://www.jsonline.com/onwisconsin/music/sep04/256199.asp > > So what about the countless guitarists who were influenced by Joni? And > were all 98 of the men mentioned extremely innovative and groundbreaking? > > Argghhhhhhh. Yeah. My reaction when I read it in the Washington Post was "how retro!" Are we really going back to "women have to be quiet and gentle" times? It really is a weird article, and not only because of how it dismisses Joni. And then I thought more about it, and it's true that most women do not want to be on stage just making as much discordant noise as loudly as they can with their guitars. They might screech and sing louder than any man ever would, but speaking generally, mechanical power is something men rely on more. Men go out out out, spreading everything, including noise. It seems to be a man thing, meant to draw women to them. (Aren't there a lot of female heavy metal fans?) Some women can be noisy, too, and even like playing electric guitars (and of course there are some quiet and contained men), but I think women do usually rely on words and subtleties and sometimes sly tricks rather than brawn. And musicians reflect those differences. Joni IS an acoustic guitarist and she's always wanted the audience to hear her words. That last thing, especially, is something I've always appreciated about her. But, still, that article is disturbing. I'm not sure what the point of it was. That the Rolling Stone listing tells us something about society? That we need more heavy-metal guitar classes in schools for girls so they can catch up? They'll never "catch up"? And that's something to be happy about? Very confusing article. So confusing I stopped thinking about it until your message to the list. Good question about the other 98 people on the Rolling Stone list. Don't have any answers for you about that. Maybe they were just loud. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:29:26 -0700 From: frasere@intergate.ca Subject: Re: Joni in LA Times Quoting Lindsay Moon : "It breaks my heart where at the end Hilburn > says part of the reason she quit making music is because of the fans that > made critical remarks ... for God's sake, you're listening to the WRONG > fans, Joni! Also interesting how she says she was born to make the > innovative art, to challenge herself to reach new heights so to speak. And > then she quit. Hmmm." Now me. When I had the absolute pleasure of meeting Joni over lunch with Kakki, the week after September 11th, she made a similar comment. Kakki, of course, with her memory like a trap, will probably recall JM's exact words. Joni's comment was that no one wants to listen to what she has to say anymore. We were both taken aback- and both stated that her fans certainly do! It truly stunned me at the time and I wondered if it sprang from general insecurity or just her distaste for the industry. Hilburn has been a big fan over the years- would love to see the article- if anyone trascribes it, please let the list know! Best, Stephen in Vancouver close to Lord Jims NP: Ricke Lee: Live at Red Rocks ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 22:56:01 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni in LA Times Stephen wrote: > When I had the absolute pleasure of meeting Joni over lunch with Kakki, the > week after September 11th, she made a similar comment. Kakki, of course, with > her memory like a trap, will probably recall JM's exact words. Joni's comment > was that no one wants to listen to what she has to say anymore. We were both > taken aback- and both stated that her fans certainly do! It truly stunned me > at the time and I wondered if it sprang from general insecurity or just her > distaste for the industry. Yes, she literally said "no one wants to listen to what I have to say anymore." And we did heartily disagree with her. I posted earlier about the Hilburn article but it has not yet seemed to appear on the list. The article is so well done and I was thinking of that day talking with Joni about the critics and how I specifically singled out Hilburn as one who has always seemed to "get" and appreciate her. Of course, she disagreed a bit and qualifiied that even he didn't get Mingus at first, but did eventually ;-) I remember arguing with her that I didn't get Don Juan for 20 years but eventually got it and she conceded that even she did not fully get some of what she was doing until later. In the latest article Hilburn picks his top 5 albums and top five songs. I'm with him four out of five on both lists (but that is subjective and he probably has a better take from a critical view). Here are Hilburn's list excerpted from the article: SONGWRITERS SERIES Five songs for the ages These songs touch on Mitchell's various moods 1. "Amelia," 1976. The music on this song from "Hejira" is slow, unhurried, a bit desolate, but also self-affirming. The image of doomed solo aviator Amelia Earhart suggests a woman's effort to find courage on her own journey. 2. "A Case of You," 1971. If you've ever been helplessly in love, this song is for you. It injects in "Blue" the hope that everything can turn out OK, especially for a strong woman. 3. "For the Roses," 1972. It's not surprising that Mitchell's first love is painting because many of her tunes are filled with bright colors. Even in this downcast tale about record industry marketing, the music often sparkles. Key line: "In some office sits a poet/ And he trembles as he sings / And he asks some guy / To circulate his soul around." 4. "Big Yellow Taxi," 1970. The smart, perky song is about ecology, yes, but mostly human nature. Key line: "They took all the trees / And put them in a tree museum / And they charged the people / a dollar and a half just to see 'em." 5. "Two Grey Rooms," 1991. A compelling tale of obsession drawn from something she read: an aristocrat had a lover in his youth he never got over. He rents a shabby apartment overlooking a street so he can watch the man walk to and from work. The mood is, fittingly, grey. Key line: "Tomorrow is Sunday / Now there's only one day left to go / Till you walk by / Below my window." Five albums for the ages From the honesty of "Blue" to the warmth of "Night Ride Home," these albums, listed chronologically, best capture the arc of Mitchell's craft. 1."Blue" 1971. Stunning in its time for its simple yet thoughtful reflections on the various sides of the romance game, the album is still a study guide for songwriters in just how to look deep inside for your inspiration and ideas. 2."For the Roses" 1972. Mitchell had fun with the music ("You Turn Me On I'm a Radio") and reflected, in the title track, on the struggle to maintain your innocence and vision in the record industry. 3."Court and Spark" 1974. This album exuded the confidence of someone who was blossoming as a musician and a person. There was rock 'n' roll ("Raised on Robbery"), more thoughts about the record business ("Free Man in Paris") and a biting look at Hollywood vanity ("The Same Situation"). 4."Hejira" 1976. The album feels as deep and true as "Blue," yet the themes and the sounds seem at times more eloquent and, occasionally, profound. The music is gently symphonic, jazzy and free. 5."Night Ride Home" 1991. This CD combines the accessibility of the early Mitchell with the artistic maturity of her later years. Longtime fans hailed it as a return to form, but, more accurately, it was simply another step forward. Comforting and refined. [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of blackpix.gif] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 02:00:16 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: September 7 On September 7 the following articles were published: 1978: "Days of Bread and Roses" - Berkeley Monthly (Review - Concert, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=52 2003: "The Masterpiece She Deserves" - Word (Review - Video) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1084 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #256 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)