From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #189 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, July 4 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 189 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- joni covering "Sorrow" [Em ] Night Ride Home ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: Night Ride Home [Catherine McKay ] Re: TI [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: TI [Em ] Night Ride Home ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Last Chance Lost aped by Jambie the Genie? [Em ] Re: Night Ride Home ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Last Chance Lost aped by Jambie the Genie? [Em ] richie havens does woodstock ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Last Chance Lost aped by Jambie the Genie? [Catherine McKay ] guitar work on TI [Em ] Re: Last Chance Lost aped by Jambie the Genie? ["Mark or Travis" ] Songs that mention 4th of July [Randy Remote ] Re: Songs that mention 4th of July [Em ] RE: Songs that mention 4th of July ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: Songs that mention 4th of July [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: Songs that mention 4th of July [Catherine McKay ] Re: Night Ride Home ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: TI [Em ] Songs that mention 4th of July ["Kate Bennett" ] A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? ["Kate Bennett] RE: TI ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? ["Mark or ] Fireworks on this 4th of July [] Re: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? [Catherine] Re: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? ["Mark or ] Re: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? [Catherine] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 07:31:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: joni covering "Sorrow" ok so I was outside shoveling dirt thinking of what it might sound like if JM covered that "Sorrow" that Bowie did. And I was thinking she could sing (since there didn't seem to be any gender preference/correct way to adapt it as is): "I never do what I know I ought to because, you know, I'm Don Juan's Daughter.. sorrow, uh uh uh uh..sorrow..." LMAO!!!!!!!!! do I see eyes rolling?? the original line of course is : "you never do what you know you ought ta something tells me you're the devil's daughter.." :P Em < Subject: Night Ride Home I was taking a night ride home last night, July 3rd turning to juLY 4TH and I was listening to Night Ride Home. traveling from one country town in Upstate NY to another. If anyone of you has not picked up a copy of Night Ride Home, (I know most of you have) I suggest you do, It is a very good album. One time, the Bree wrote a good response/review of this album. I will have to ask her if she saved a copy. . she's on the road today, so I don't know if I will find it today. I know it is in the archives, but I don't know how to find it without wading through it all. I think to myself, this is a good time to listen to this album. More to say, of course about this album. . kind of don't know where to start. . I love it. okay, just for starters, Cherokee Louise is exquisite. . . I would love to hear any of your thoughts about this album. (ps. Ok, I hate to admit it, but there is one song that I don't really appreciate on the album. . I'll leave you guessing. . or perhaps it is an easy guess, I don't know.) (I hate to say I don't like a joni song. . . ) (well then again, I don't mind saying I don't like Dancing Clown) (for some reason that doesn't bother me, to say that) Anyway, when I tell what song I do not care for on this album, perhaps someone can convince me to like it. . I am sure some lovely Joni person will find merit in it. I'll give you a clue. . In this song, I feel that the story is started and unfinished. It is like the setting is laid and then the story is yet to be told. . Anyway, I think Night Ride Home (the album) is E X C E L L E N T. Marianne _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page  FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:07:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Night Ride Home - --- Marianne Rizzo wrote: > I was taking a night ride home last night, > July 3rd turning to juLY 4TH > and I was listening to Night Ride Home. > traveling from one country town in Upstate NY to > another. I haven't listed to NRH for a while, so maybe this would be a good day to listen, while wishing all of y'all south of the border - THE BORDER, like it's the ONLY border (it is THE border for me, at least) - a happy Independence Day. Enjoy your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness in your own special ways. I can't guess which song you don't like, Marianne, despite your clue. Call me clueless - just call me! I had to look at the list of titles and that didn't help either. Somehow I always associate "Two grey rooms" with Turbulent Indigo, so am always surprised to realize it's on Night Ride Home instead. Overall, the tone of this album is very optimistic. I guess Joni was still in love when she wrote these (most of these). She sounds happy, for the most part, but it's a more mature sound, than the three or so albums that preceded it. It's a return to form from Chalk Mark, which doesn't do a lot for me (with a few exceptions, most notably "Beat of Black Wings", but that's a story for another day.) Here are the songs I DO like from Night Ride: - - Night Ride Home - - Passion Play (very powerful and full of enough imagery that you could write a long, long, article, even a book, on it alone) - - Cherokee Louise (upbeat-sounding music contradicts the dark theme, and yet optimism reigns supreme - the thing that most sticks with me, anyway, is not the child abuse, but the optimism of youth and the supremacy of friendship over nastiness - I would really like to know how things turned out for Louise in the end) - - Slouching towards Bethlehem (I'm a sucker for Yeats) - - Come in from the cold (as of last Jonifest, this will always remind me of Ashara) - - The only joy in town (a very summery song, one that I would really love to learn to play, but I get so frustrated with the retuning, that I tend to stay away from the ones that don't have a lot of other songs that I also like in the same tuning - mental ennui and too many broken strings) - - Two grey rooms The ones I like less (but couldn't say I hate, or even dislike): - - The windfall - - Nothing can be done - - Ray's Dad's Cadillac It's 11:06 a.m. give or take and there's work that's crying to be done. Where is the self-cleaning, self-repairing house? ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 11:21:54 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: TI Em asked the following: "what I'm hoping to do with TI, is to finally get to the recognizeable tune/heart of the songs. Like are these things you could sing?" The answer is yes. I suggest you give it some time, and stay open. I think there is a good chance you will feel rewarded. "I guess I am very simple minded, musically, and am having trouble wrapping my brain around the tunes." I am infamously on record for having taken over 20 years before I finally "got" Hejira - well worth the wait. The songs I now like best on TI are those that I had trouble warming up to at the beginning - Sunny Sunday, TI, Last Chance Lost and Yvette. But, I still like the others, too. "I keep feeling like would someone PLEEZ give that woman a dulcimer? " But, only Blue (and Miles of Aisles) had a dulcimer - 4 songs total. In TI, the guitar work is predominantly acoustic. All in all, I think the arrangements are subdued enough to be accessible- a really well produced album, actually (albeit no Henry Lewy). And, it did win a Grammy for best pop album and a second for artwork. Whereas Blue won nothing until it made the Hall of Fame (it ranks higher on most "greatest" lists than Tapestry, which took the honors and sold the records that year - I wonder why). Em again: "But again, it has that "sound"..that late 80's early 90's "sound". Its like this album (I forget the title) that Robbie Robertson put out in the late 80's - GREAT stuff, but mired in that super "studio-ey" sound." Well, there are many complaints about her 80's stuff (especially DED) in that respect - and, I feel that way about TTT, too. But I think Night Ride Home and TI were just about right. Stay with it - I think you'll be happy you did. That said, I thought I would let you know that one of the relatively few negative reviews of this record complained mostly about the lyrics. Charlotte Grieg's review in Mojo is articulate, but longer on style than on substance, IMO. Also, she gets her insights and facts screwed up a bit. And, I agree with you rather than her about the lyrics. But some of that is a matter of taste, I concede. Her intro is a powerhouse one-liner, though, and I thought you might appreciate it - "It would be easy to claim that the title says it all. Where once there was 'Blue', short, sweet and to the point, now there is 'Turbulent Indigo', overwrought and ambiguous." The review should be on the JMDL library, but it is not (it is in Stacy Luftig's book, "The JM Companion"). What should I do to get it posted there ? Some other snippets (it's not as though Charlotte does not admire Joni): "Musically she is, as ever, completely self-assured; whatever the complexities of the songs - and some of them meander along like a drunk zigzagging home, throwing punches and hazy philosophical cliche's at the air - her poise remains exquisite......The trouble come from the lyrics. It's not that she's lost her facility for language or her acrobatic way of a rhyming scheme; the problem is with what she has to say......It's no more navel gazing, it's time to set the world to rights. Which is unfortunate, because the new politically responsible Joni Mitchell is verbose, morose and exceedingly bad company. Not that she was ever exactly likeable.........If she wasn't so good musically, her lyrical indiscretions would matter less; but TI is full of distressingly banal reflections and literary references that don't measure up to the sophistication of their settings...... On the down side are state-of-the-planet moans like the trite 'Borderline' and a dull anti-rape number called 'Not to Blame'. On the title track, Mitchell complains that people don't understand what great artists like her and Van Gogh have to endure, what with living in turbulent indigo and all - but having been so thoroughly patronized, it's hard for the listener to sympathize." Ouch ! Within that, I think Borderline is profound rather than trite, and that Grieg misses the point with some of her other comments. For example, she says that Joni's "mercurial, if self absorbed, reflections......along with her immense musicality, let her get away with adopting the role of spoilt minx in songs like 'Free Man in Paris'. " Oops, that one was not autobiographical, Charlotte. And I think she completely misses the barn (like Lee Marvin in Cat Ballou) with her paragraph on The Sire of Sorrow (Job's Sad Song) - though a more insightful analysis might have questioned whether Joni was implying that she was feeling as bitter, wronged and underappreciated not merely as Van Gogh, but as Job, no less ! ? Grieg writes: "The closing track is 'The Sire of Sorrow (Job's Sad Song)'; and it is deeply depressing, not so much because of its subject matter - death, suffering, more death - but because Mitchell uses global concerns to mask her own disappointment. She bleats on about a modern world of "trash,", "breathtaking ignorance" and so on, but refuses to let the undercurrents of her own fear of aging and death get through and give the song some emotional honesty". Geesh. The last sentence is so off point, it almost has to be transference on Charlotte's part, methinks. There - some psychobabble right there back at you, Charlotte. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 08:49:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: TI HI Bob, what a beautifully thought out post. Thanks so much. Am going to kick back now with TI and listen to it for the 3rd time - me sitting still this time..and see what transpires. As I told you before Bob, I keep forgetting that Hejira came *after* HOSL...so its the post Hejira stuff I meant - not post HOSL. Hejira *is* my friend..in a BIG way. Thanks again, I will think about what you've written as I listen. Em - --- Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > Em asked the following: > > "what I'm hoping to do with TI, is to finally get to the > recognizeable > tune/heart of the songs. Like are these things you could sing?" > > The answer is yes. I suggest you give it some time, and stay open. I > think > there is a good chance you will feel rewarded. ...snip..... ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 12:15:51 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: Night Ride Home Catherine, Thanks for your response to my Night Ride Home post. This touches my heart: >Cherokee Louise (upbeat-sounding music contradicts >the dark theme, and yet optimism reigns supreme - the >thing that most sticks with me, anyway, is not the >child abuse, but the optimism of youth and the >supremacy of friendship over nastiness - I would >really like to know how things turned out for Louise >in the end) I like the optimism you speak of : "the optimism of youth and the supremacy of friendship over nastiness." I feel that friends/ friendships are very important to people. . young people, young teenagers, etc. I still have some friends from 7th grade and a good handful from high school. . and this has been really important to me. . and I remember that we brought a lot to each other as we were growing up. . we had a lot of freedom. . unfortunately many (not all) of our parents were divorced or getting divorced, they had problems of their own, so we became understanding, gentle forces in each other's life. . . secrets and feelings, music and love, experimenting with life, crying, laughing, riding along in my red Volkswagon Bug (no heat). skipping school, acting cool, weariing our jean jackets, walking down the street (in the street) after dark. . smoking cigarettes + (old gold was my first pack) hanging out at the railroad tracks, the canal. . . exploring nature, watching snails. . . stuff like that. . . . . . and basically learning the realizations of life together (I said before, "the mine field.). . . fortunately it was like the last generation, (I call it). I mean, it was the generation that was still kind of safe. . kind of still innocent, you knew your neighbors. . they knew you. . (I was born in 1960) "I'm sleeping at Laurie's house this weekend, don't worry about me." . . my parents gave me loads of freedom. . . luckily nothing happened. . . but yes, we received so much love and attention from each other, our friends, our cousins. . kids could use those kinds of relationships. . . They meant the world to me then . . .and still they do now. For Cherokee Louise, it could have been the only thing that kept her going through it all. Many blessings to her. Marianne . Catherine wrote: >I haven't listed to NRH for a while, so maybe this would be a good day to listen, while wishing all of y'all south of the border - THE BORDER, like it's the ONLY border (it is THE border for me, at least) - a happy Independence Day. Enjoy your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness in your own special ways. I can't guess which song you don't like, Marianne, despite your clue. Call me clueless - just call me! I had to look at the list of titles and that didn't help either. Somehow I always associate "Two grey rooms" with Turbulent Indigo, so am always surprised to realize it's on Night Ride Home instead. Overall, the tone of this album is very optimistic. I guess Joni was still in love when she wrote these (most of these). She sounds happy, for the most part, but it's a more mature sound, than the three or so albums that preceded it. It's a return to form from Chalk Mark, which doesn't do a lot for me (with a few exceptions, most notably "Beat of Black Wings", but that's a story for another day.) Here are the songs I DO like from Night Ride: - - Night Ride Home - - Passion Play (very powerful and full of enough imagery that you could write a long, long, article, even a book, on it alone) - - Cherokee Louise (upbeat-sounding music contradicts the dark theme, and yet optimism reigns supreme - the thing that most sticks with me, anyway, is not the child abuse, but the optimism of youth and the supremacy of friendship over nastiness - I would really like to know how things turned out for Louise in the end) - - Slouching towards Bethlehem (I'm a sucker for Yeats) - - Come in from the cold (as of last Jonifest, this will always remind me of Ashara) - - The only joy in town (a very summery song, one that I would really love to learn to play, but I get so frustrated with the retuning, that I tend to stay away from the ones that don't have a lot of other songs that I also like in the same tuning - mental ennui and too many broken strings) - - Two grey rooms The ones I like less (but couldn't say I hate, or even dislike): - - The windfall - - Nothing can be done - - Ray's Dad's Cadillac It's 11:06 a.m. give or take and there's work that's crying to be done. Where is the self-cleaning, self-repairing house?< _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee. Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:24:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Last Chance Lost aped by Jambie the Genie? Was just listening to LCL on TI and thinking "i've heard this before". hmmm.... then it hit me. Anybody ever see (or remember) the original HBO special of PeeWee's PLayhouse? Which was *not* for kids. Anyway, remember that amazingly attractive genie named Jambie who lives in a box? And he "sees" stuff when he goes into these spinning trances... so Pee Wee's asking him to *seee* something for him..and Jambie's already done enough trances I guess, he's over it. and starts camping up some song, singing "Last trance, that was the laaaaast trance".... etc. and I always assumed he was apeing some song "Last Dance". (tho certainly not NY's) Anyway, it sounds almost the same as Joni singing "Last Chance". Wondering if he might have been apeing that instead. hmmmmm... "Last trance, thats was my laaaast trance" You think?? Em ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:45:47 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Night Ride Home > I would love to hear any of your thoughts about this album. For those here that remember me you know this can be a dangerous thing to say to me. This is an excerpt from a very long-winded piece I wrote about Joni that Les was kind enough to publish in the JMDL library. I attempted to describe how each record fits into the whole of Joni's output. My feeble, inadequate attempt to show that Joni's albums are all different but each related to the records that came before. Not just random jumps from one 'style' to another. This was my take on 'Night Ride Home'. The last statement is inaccurate as Joni did play piano on 'Not To Blame' from Turbulent Indigo. I love 'Night Ride Home'. It is a lovely record and one of her best, in my opinion. In some ways, the release of 1991's 'Night Ride Home' brought Joni back around full circle, musically. Her acoustic guitar once again took center stage and the production was stripped down practically to bare bones compared with her two previous releases, 'Dog Eat Dog' & 'CMIARS'. The synthesized sounds are still in evidence but on this record they are not the dominant sounds. Rather they are used more as carefully applied shading, accenting certain phrases or creating a mood at specific points in the narrative. As a result the melodies are much more prominent and 'Night Ride Home' contains some of Joni's best. The title track is a lilting song about a drive on a Fourth of July night in Hawaii, accented by the sound of a cricket rhythmically chirping in the background. 'Cherokee Louise' features an intricate guitar line & tells the story of a childhood friend of Joni's who was a Native American girl brought up in a foster home where she was sexually abused. It is both a nostalgic look at Joni's adolescence and a powerful look at racial prejudice and the damage that is often done to children in the foster care system. Two songs have a spiritual theme. 'Passion Play (When All the Slaves Are Free)' sets the story of Christ's final days against a modern backdrop of 'Exxon blue and radiation rose' and 'Slouching Toward Bethlehem' is Joni's adaptation of W. B. Yeats' poem 'The Second Coming.' In keeping with the themes of Yeats' poem, Joni's lyrics envision the Beast of the Apocalypse being wakened 'out of a stony sleep/by a rocking cradle by the Sea of Galilee.' This song is full of images of the malaise of modern day society and a sense that impending disaster is the inevitable result of that illness. The instrumental arrangement starts out with Joni's solo guitar and gradually adds layers of sound which build to an unnerving cacophony in the choruses, creating an aural picture of a world spinning out of control. The song is a masterful reworking of the source material. Joni had to obtain permission from Yeats' estate to publish and record the song and her work was deemed worthy enough by Yeats' heirs to bear the poet's name. Larry Klein once again is credited as co-producer and bass player on 'NRH'. He is also listed as the composer on one song, 'Nothing Can Be Done'. Wayne Shorter adds his musical shadings to 'Cherokee Louise' and the playfully nostalgic 'Ray's Dad's Cadillac.' There is a distinct sense of Joni reflecting back on her younger years on several of the songs from this record. She was definitely processing the changes that middle age had brought to her life, once again contemplating the effects of the passage of time. The album ends with one of the most stunningly beautiful songs in her entire catalogue, 'Two Grey Rooms'. This song features a gorgeous piano intro and string arrangement that underscore a soaring melody. Joni sings expressively, passionately & with exquisite longing the story of a gay man who is so hung up on someone he was romantically involved with 30 years before that he rents a room overlooking where the former lover passes on his way to & from work every day, just to watch him walk by. Joni's piano playing has become a rarity in recent years. In fact 'Two Grey Rooms' is the last track on any of her official releases that features her playing piano. Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:47:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Last Chance Lost aped by Jambie the Genie? guess not, ya'll - sorry - should have researched it first. The Pee Wee special was first aired around '91 and i see that TI came out in '94. Sorry for the confusion. Em - --- Em wrote: > Anyway, it sounds almost the same as Joni singing "Last Chance" in Last Chance Lost. > Wondering if he might have been apeing that instead. > hmmmmm... > "Last trance, thats was my laaaast trance" You think?? ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:50:37 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: richie havens does woodstock >"RICHIE HAVENS GRACE OF THE SUN This boomer generation of ours has any number of classic moments and images that have stood the test of time. One of them is certainly Havens taking the stage in the film "Woodstock" all those years ago and kicking off one of the defining moments of the decade.< thanks ron for posting this.... whenever richie's name comes up I have to take some time to rave... he is a hero (both musical & human) to me... I was there in person to hear him play at Woodstock... I went to hear him a few years ago & he still has all that talent & burning passion... he seems hardly to have aged at all... what a voice, what a guitar player, what a deep spirituality he exudes... I met him afterwards & he was so gracious saying he felt that meeting fans was as much a part of the gig as playing... don't miss richie if you ever get the chance to see him... & how cool he is doing the song Woodstock... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:53:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Last Chance Lost aped by Jambie the Genie? - --- Em wrote: > guess not, ya'll - sorry - should have researched it > first. The Pee Wee > special was first aired around '91 and i see that TI > came out in '94. > Sorry for the confusion. > Em > > --- Em wrote: > > Anyway, it sounds almost the same as Joni singing > "Last Chance" in > Last Chance Lost. > > Wondering if he might have been apeing that > instead. > > hmmmmm... > > "Last trance, thats was my laaaast trance" You > think?? > ...Maybe Joni watched Peewee's Playhouse... (Back to work!) ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 09:57:15 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: All I Want "I love you when I forget about me" Its always been one of those amazing lines joni writes that is just a basic universal'truism' about love... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 10:23:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: guitar work on TI its friggen awesome!!!!! MUSCULAR and snappy. WHY OH WHY, smear it with the studio's "electric K-Y Jelly". For chrissakes, that playing needs NO cosmetics. Its friggen world class. I wonder if she knows that??? Does she think this needs "makeup"??? NO way man. Gorgeous guitar. Joni: PLease ma'am, PLEEZ let me see your crags and lines, let me hear a "pop" or two and a squeak of slide of string. I crave it. I want it. I desire it. And I love the underlying "almost waltz"..in the song "TI" Christ that is a sexually attractive song.... HBO needs to pick up on it for an episode of 6 Feet Under (which sports excellent music) in reference to Claire's art school manouverings. sigh..... feeling blessed to have a powerhouse new album to listen to. Artists made of Eskimoes and women....lol, it could happen! You guys - thanks. You've been so gentle with me. love em ps one more thing at the end of "Yvette" does Wayne Shorter throw in a touch of "If I Only Had a Heart"?? or? my imagination? ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 10:23:57 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Last Chance Lost aped by Jambie the Genie? >> --- Em wrote: >>> Anyway, it sounds almost the same as Joni singing >> "Last Chance" in >> Last Chance Lost. >>> Wondering if he might have been apeing that >> instead. >>> hmmmmm... >>> "Last trance, thats was my laaaast trance" You >> think?? >> > > ...Maybe Joni watched Peewee's Playhouse... > > (Back to work!) Wasn't there a Donna Summer song called 'Last Dance'? Maybe that was it. Mark E. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 10:52:33 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: guitar work on TI > ps one more thing at the end of "Yvette" does Wayne Shorter throw in a > touch of "If I Only Had a Heart"?? or? my imagination? > I'm not the only one who's heard that! Thanks Em! Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 11:48:15 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Songs that mention 4th of July Night Ride Home-Joni Mitchell Saturday In The Park-Chicago Fourth of July-X ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 12:29:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Songs that mention 4th of July - --- Randy Remote wrote: > Night Ride Home-Joni Mitchell > Saturday In The Park-Chicago > Fourth of July-X > BORN ON THE BAYOU.. Creedence ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:46:22 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Songs that mention 4th of July "4th of July, Asbury Park (Sandy)" Bruce Springsteen "Independence Day," Bruce Springsteen - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Em Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 3:29 PM To: Randy Remote; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Songs that mention 4th of July - --- Randy Remote wrote: > Night Ride Home-Joni Mitchell > Saturday In The Park-Chicago > Fourth of July-X > BORN ON THE BAYOU.. Creedence ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:51:30 -0400 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Songs that mention 4th of July And in the newly relevant extended meataphor by John Prine "The Great Compromise": http://www.jpshrine.org/lyrics/songs/ditrcompromise.html - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of Em Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 3:29 PM To: Randy Remote; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Songs that mention 4th of July - --- Randy Remote wrote: > Night Ride Home-Joni Mitchell > Saturday In The Park-Chicago > Fourth of July-X > BORN ON THE BAYOU.. Creedence ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:19:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: guitar work on TI - --- Em wrote: > its friggen awesome!!!!! > MUSCULAR and snappy. > WHY OH WHY, smear it with the studio's "electric K-Y > Jelly". > For chrissakes, that playing needs NO cosmetics. > Its friggen world class. > I wonder if she knows that??? > Does she think this needs "makeup"??? > NO way man. Gorgeous guitar. I think this is one of the complaints about some of Joni's more recent stuff - it sounds muddy. I used to blame it on the VG8, but it's not just that - maybe it's whatever "voice" Joni chooses, or too much mixing and blending in the studio but, like you, I would prefer to hear the guitar... sounding like a guitar. > Artists made of Eskimoes and women....lol, it could > happen! I think the reference there might have been to Canada Council Arts Grants trying to encourage "minorities" in the arts. "You want to make Van Goghs. Raise 'em up like sheep. Make them out of Eskimoes. And women, if you please." (Imagine that! Women artists!) ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 17:25:50 -0400 From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: Songs that mention 4th of July "today's the fourth of July. another June has gone by. And when they light up our town I just think, 'what a waste of gunpowder and sky!" Aimee Mann, Fourth of July ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:33:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Songs that mention 4th of July - --- KJHSF@aol.com wrote: > "today's the fourth of July. > another June has gone by. > And when they light up our town > I just think, 'what a waste of gunpowder and sky!" > > Aimee Mann, Fourth of July > LOL! Then there's the classic: I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy Yankee Doodle, do or die A real live nephew of my Uncle Sam, Born on the 4th of July. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:34:18 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? Joni has said that she took piano lessons when she was a kid from a teacher who would rap her knuckles whenever Joni would play her own compositions. I believe the teacher would say something like 'Why would you want to compose when you can have the masters at your fingertips?' or something to that effect. This has always bugged the hell out of me that someone's creativity would be discouraged and stifled in this way. So in the past day or so I've been wondering. Suppose Joni had not been discouraged from composing music at this early age? What if her gift had been recognized and fostered? Had she been sent, say, to Julliard and trained as a classical musician, what course would her career and life have taken? Did she have what it takes to create operas or compose symphonies? Or would she be doing work in the arena of popular culture but more along of the lines of composing film scores or Broadway musicals? In 1929 Virginia Woolf published the essay 'A Room of One's Own' in which she speculates about Shakespeare having a sister who was also endowed with Willy's gift and ambition to write poetry. Could she have produced a body of work on a par with her famous brother? Woolf concluded that, no, it would not have been possible. The social and cultural environment and attitudes of the time would not have allowed any woman to have a career like Shakespeare's. Indeed, it was Woolf's opinion that conditions were still too adverse for women in 1929 for a great female poet to be able to work and flourish. Her contention was that a woman would first need an income independent of a husband or a father or any other person and a private space to work in before she could produce great poetry that was not influenced by or reflective of anyone else's point of view. 500 pounds per year and a room of one's own were her specific requirements. Joni eventually achieved financial independence and even had her own recording studio at one time. But none of this was handed to her on a silver platter. She worked hard for it and gave up many things to get where she eventually got to. I found it incredibly sad in the American Masters program when she described how it broke her heart to refuse Graham Nacho's proposal of marriage because she was afraid it would mean being overshadowed and having her own musical creativity stifled if she married him. And then of course there's the whole sad story of her first marriage, hoping it would allow her to raise her child. Once that dream was hopelessly lost, she had no choice but to get out from under Chuck Mitchell's shadow if she was ever going to have a career of her own. It was a struggle. Lots of scrambling and poverty before she hit the big time. So what if Joni had been born into a well to do family that had recognized her gifts? Would she eventually have set the world on its ear (so to speak) with her own equivalent of 'Rites of Spring'? Or what if she had been born in the time of Schubert or Beethoven? As a woman, would she have even been allowed to compose or to paint? Would she have done either or both in secrecy without any kind of encouragement or training, only to have her work vanish into obscurity? There have been very mixed reactions to 'Travelogue'. Although I do like it, I think it works best when the orchestrations echo the musical settings that Joni put them in to begin with, 'The Dawntreader' being the most successful, in my opinion. What if Joni had not had to rely on Vince Mendoza to write the instrumental parts? What if she had had the training to do them herself? What might 'Travelogue' have sounded like? Or would the original songs ever have been written if Joni's music had been schooled in classical orchestration and composition from the start? Are there women composers whose work would be considered to be in the vein of 'classical' or 'serious' music? Certainly you never hear of any mentioned along with Beethoven or Mozart or Schubert. Or even in the same class as, say, Benjamin Britten or Ned Rorem. Would Joni have been taken seriously if her music had taken this direction? Finally, considering the wonderful body of work she has given us, does any of this speculation really matter and do we care? Would we have wanted a modern day Schubert or Beethoven instead of our beloved Lady of Duality? Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 17:32:12 -0400 From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: MRI =?ISO-8859-1?B?oCBuamM=?= Just had an MRI on Wednesday. It wasn't too terrible, except the technician kept snipping that I was moving too much, even when I felt i was being perfectly still. I'm not claustrophobic--but the noisiness of it reminded me of the scene in the Exorcist when they have all those machines circling over Reagan trying to do a brain scan and making the same super loud rattling noises. It's funny to see that scene and realize how primitive the technology looked just 30 years ago. Don't sweat it Colin! Be gentle with yourself! It will be OK! Best Wishes, Ken NP Elliot Smith, XO ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 14:55:22 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? I found it incredibly sad in the > American Masters program when she described how it broke her heart to > refuse Graham Nacho's proposal of marriage Omigod! The wonders of Spellcheck! lol! That was supposed to be Graham Nash, not Graham Nacho. lol! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:05:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? Mark said among many other well thought out things: "So what if Joni had been born into a well to do family that had recognized her gifts? Would she eventually have set the world on its ear (so to speak) with her own equivalent of 'Rites of Spring'?" Hi Mark, I think adversity creates strength sometimes. Gives artists an edge. To paraphrase George Carlin; "tempers" them in sh_t. I think it was great she was thrown to the hippies. Or threw herself there. Just my .02. Em ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:01:09 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= Subject: Re: Night Ride Home Hi Catherine You might already have had a number of replies to this but... The Only Joy In Town is the same tuning as NRH and Hejira, My Secret Place and perhaps a few others... if you're in the same tuning for NRH then just capo up two steps so you don't tune the middle D string to an E. I don't like staying in TOJIT tuning as it is higher like Coyote and DJRD and WOHAM where that B is tuned to a C. Have fun anyway... Much Joni Jamie Zoob Catherine McKay wrote: - - The only joy in town (a very summery song, one that I would really love to learn to play, but I get so frustrated with the retuning, that I tend to stay away from the ones that don't have a lot of other songs that I also like in the same tuning - mental ennui and too many broken strings) - --------------------------------- Too much spam in your inbox? Yahoo! Mail gives you the best spam protection for FREE! Get Yahoo!Mail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:13:14 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? > Hi Mark, I think adversity creates strength sometimes. > Gives artists an edge. > To paraphrase George Carlin; "tempers" them in sh_t. > I think it was great she was thrown to the hippies. > Or threw herself there. > Just my .02. > Em > Hey Em, I certainly don't disagree with you. I think that adversity certainly has contributed to the creation of great art and I think that may be a point that Woolf missed entirely. As I said at the end of my post, I am perfectly happy with the Joni that we've got! But I still wonder what if.... Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:42:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > But I still wonder what if.... yeah its fun to speculate. And I'm sure she'd have been plenty good in the framework of classical, but to tell you the truth, to me, unless she could have stood on whatever precipice of very avant garde or abstract classical music there might be, she might not have been happy. I mean, Beethoven and those guys, they'd float off on tangents in between, but always come back to earthshatteringly strong old school MELODY which Joni seems to have abandoned.... I don't see any melody with the force of "Ode to Joy" coming out of Joni. Of course jazz...now maybe a master of jazz... or a painter or film maker... the world could use another "Guernica" - this time by a female. Its hard being a female painter in the "system", especially if you're not fond of giving blow jobs. anyway..thats just me talking.. :) Em ps maybe her classical career would've somewhat mirrored her career she has had. More structured/accesible/melodic stuff at first..then off on tangents later... ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 15:58:29 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: TI Yikes! In one sentence she calls joni's introspection navel gazing & later criticizes her for a lack of emotional honesty... this is one critic who doesn't seem to want it either way... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:06:36 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Night Ride Home I just keep loving this song... I played it yesterday at the local holiday art & music show downtown... during our run through Friday night immediately after we went through NRH I took a bathroom break & guess what was sitting right in the middle of the room? A cricket! I spent a 4th of july in Hawaii many years ago so it really resonates with me... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:07:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: TI Kate?? ummm, me??? did you mean me? umm cuz I was the one, mostly talking about TI.. if you mean me, can you explain? if I've been dumb about something.. I would gladly be taken to task.. or did you mean someone else? :) Em - --- Kate Bennett wrote: > Yikes! In one sentence she calls joni's introspection navel gazing & > later > criticizes her for a lack of emotional honesty... this is one critic > who > doesn't seem to want it either way... > ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:14:38 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Songs that mention 4th of July Fourth Of July - Dave Alvin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:26:29 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? >Finally, considering the wonderful body of work she has given us, does any of this speculation really matter and do we care? Would we have wanted a modern day Schubert or Beethoven instead of our beloved Lady of Duality?< Mark what a great post! It is my opinion that joni ranks up there with the great composers you mentioned... in this modern time songwriting has replaced composition (such as those mentioned) IMO as being form that most people listen to... I remember a line from the movie Fame where the keyboardist said if Mozart were alive today he'd be writing rock & roll (or something like that)... speaking of Mozart, I believe he had a sister who was also talented but because of the way things were, was not allowed or given the chance that her brother was... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:28:34 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: TI Oh sorry Em, no it was not you I was referring too... sorry for the confusion... my post was in response to the formal critique by a women whose name I forget that someone posted... sorry I forgot to include the post with my response! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 17:47:05 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? ... speaking of > Mozart, I believe he had a sister who was also talented but because > of the way things were, was not allowed or given the chance that her > brother was... Wow, Kate! Thanks for that interesting tidbit. That's just the kind of thing I was hoping my post might turn up. I'd like to know more about this sister of Mozart's if anyone has any more information. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 21:51:58 -0400 From: Subject: Fireworks on this 4th of July It's 9:42PM in Cincinnati on July 4th. That means that the sky is full of light and every dog on the east coast is hiding in his "safe space" until the noise stops. In a few minutes, I guess I'll have to hand over the JMDL-4th Festivities to Yael, Vince, Sue, Fred, and Terry in the Central time zone. Then it will be time for Cindy, Giselle, & Paz to take a bow, followed by a smooth segue to Les in Denver. Then it's on to Kakki, right in Joni's backyard. I guess it will end up at H. Pat Bolin's place in the South Pacific. Anyway, happy 4th, everyone. Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 22:12:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > I found it incredibly sad in the > > American Masters program when she described how it > broke her heart to > > refuse Graham Nacho's proposal of marriage > > Omigod! The wonders of Spellcheck! lol! That was > supposed to be Graham Nash, not Graham Nacho. > lol! Now it all comes clear - the real meaning of: "You're Nacho's, liberation doll!" refers to Joni's saying "No" to Graham. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 19:16:50 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? >> Omigod! The wonders of Spellcheck! lol! That was >> supposed to be Graham Nash, not Graham Nacho. >> lol! > > Now it all comes clear - the real meaning of: "You're > Nacho's, liberation doll!" refers to Joni's saying > "No" to Graham. Catherine! The mystery solved at last! ROTFLMAO!!! MEIS ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 23:06:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: A studio of one's own - a female Schubert? or Beehthoven? - --- Mark or Travis wrote: > ... speaking of > > Mozart, I believe he had a sister who was also > talented but because > > of the way things were, was not allowed or given > the chance that her > > brother was... > > Wow, Kate! Thanks for that interesting tidbit. > That's just the kind of thing I was hoping my post > might turn up. I'd like to know more about this > sister of Mozart's if anyone has any more > information. > Then there was Klara (or Clara) Schumann, married to Robert Schumann, and Fanny Mendelssohn, sister of Felix. They weren't encouraged in music because they were supposed to be wives and mothers, and women weren't supposed to do those kinds of things. Maybe that's what Joni was trying to avoid. When I looked up Klara Schumann (because I couldn't remember whether she was Robert's wife or sister), I found a page dealing with neglected women composers, some of whom I had heard of before (like Klara S., Fanny M and Cecile Chaminade), but most of whom I had not: http://www.ambache.co.uk/wNavigate.htm ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #189 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)