From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #188 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, July 4 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 188 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- richie havens does woodstock ["Ron" ] Re: A simple & complex line ["mike pritchard" ] Re: richie havens does woodstock [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: A simple & complex line [Em ] Re: A simple & complex line ["amelio747" ] music/tune..is it there? TI [Em ] Re: richie havens does woodstock ["Ron" ] Re: All I Want [Bobsart48@aol.com] A simple & complex line ["Marianne Rizzo" ] Re: music/tune..is it there? TI ["Norman Pennington" ] Re: Best of Covers Vol 1? [david sapp ] RE: All I Want ["Wally Kairuz" ] A simple & complex line ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Lama! your post [Em ] Today's Library Links: July 4 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 12:24:19 +0200 From: "Ron" Subject: richie havens does woodstock hi not sure if this was mentioned before - from village records guide for this month: "RICHIE HAVENS GRACE OF THE SUN This boomer generation of ours has any number of classic moments and images that have stood the test of time. One of them is certainly Havens taking the stage in the film "Woodstock" all those years ago and kicking off one of the defining moments of the decade. Whether he's singing one of his own songs or doing one of his unmistakable covers of another writer you are drawn to his style and voice. On this all new recording he offers mostly his own new compositions but saves some room for a show stopping rendition of Joni Mitchell's "Woodstock." A very welcome return from an old friend. Stormy Forest $15.99 Ships July 20 ron ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:19:14 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: A simple & complex line >>"it's nature's way of telling you...something's wrong.."<< Thanks Em for this snippet of the wonderful 'this mortal coil' track, references to whom I've only seen from myself or Big Walt, if I'm not mistaken. Or maybe you were thinking of another version? Isn't it originally a 'Spirit' song? mike in barcelona NP Jim Hall & Pat Metheny - summertime ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 07:54:49 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: richie havens does woodstock **On this all new recording he offers mostly his own new compositions but saves some room for a show stopping rendition of Joni Mitchell's "Woodstock." Hey thanks Ron - this is news to me. I love Havens voice & style and can't wait to hear what he does with this song, which I'm sure will resonate deeply with him. Lots of folks doing Woodstock these days, do you think they're looking to get to some semblance of a garden? Bob, getting ready to head out to Pawley's Island, surely one of the 100 wonders of the world... NP: Elvis Costello, "When Green Eyes Turn Blue" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 04:56:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: A simple & complex line Hi Mike, yep, for me it's Spirit, one of my faves. But that song first made inroads into my head as one of the most popular "slow dance" numbers for my junior high school days. LOL, I guess lots of little boy bands around here used to play it. So it has those "sweaty, nervous" junior high dance connotations too. Along with "Samba Pa Ti" and "Color my World". But later, I got into Spirit and I was look, oh wow, there's that song from junior high school..now I LIKE it! :) Em ps hope you are having a wonderful day Mike, I am waiting for 6 yards of fill dirt to arrive, for my yard. yikes! - --- mike pritchard wrote: > >>"it's nature's way of telling you...something's wrong.."<< > > Thanks Em for this snippet of the wonderful 'this mortal coil' track, > references to whom I've only seen from myself or Big Walt, if I'm not > mistaken. Or maybe you were thinking of another version? Isn't it > originally a > 'Spirit' song? > mike in barcelona > NP Jim Hall & Pat Metheny - summertime > ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:21:26 +0100 From: "amelio747" Subject: Re: A simple & complex line I think whets she's saying is Love can open your eyes to many things you maybe couldn't easily see before. This line particular perhaps implies that she doesn't feel as selfish, and cares a lot more about everyone else. That's what I get from the song anyway. NP: Knight Moves - Suzanne Vega * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:37 AM Subject: A simple & complex line > You know how you hear these Joni lines 1 zillion times and they breeze right > by you, and then WHAM all of a sudden they hit you like a ton of bricks? I was > just listening to Lydia van Dam's superb take on "All I Want" and this line > just leapt up at me: > > "I love you when I forget about me" > > Boy, the more you think about that one the deeper it gets. Is it > complimentary? Is it a slam? Is it self-deprecating? All or none of the above? > > Bob > > NP: still that killer Chaka cover ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 05:37:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: music/tune..is it there? TI what I'm hoping to do with TI, is to finally get to the recognizeable tune/heart of the songs. Like are these things you could sing? Lyrically, I believe this work is a real powerhouse. Still trying to make friends w/ the music. I guess I am very simple minded, musically, and am having trouble wrapping my brain around the tunes. I keep feeling like would someone PLEEZ give that woman a dulcimer? and the rest of you guys get the "f" out. sigh.... I love the way her voice sounds tho... sometimes it strains, but sometimes her vibrato is so beautifully controlled and natural sounding. Just delicious. Am hoping to end up buddies w/ TI. But again, it has that "sound"..that late 80's early 90's "sound". Its like this album (I forget the title) that Robbie Robertson put out in the late 80's - GREAT stuff, but mired in that super "studio-ey" sound. A shame, I think. But thats just me.... I know I'm aberrant - I don't even like chrome on motorcycles! :P em ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 15:27:53 +0200 From: "Ron" Subject: Re: richie havens does woodstock hi >>>bob wrote > Lots of folks doing Woodstock these days, do you think they're looking to get > to some semblance of a garden? well, from the top 5 classic list comparing new woodstock to woodstock classic: July 1, 2004 (Today's list was originally published on July 27, 1999) The Top 15 Differences Between Woodstock '69 and Woodstock '99 15> 1969: Three-mile long line of vans bringing flower children to a festival of peace and love 1999: Three-mile long line of vans bringing children to state junior soccer tournament in nearby Poughkeepsie 14> 1969: First aid tents filled with people who overdosed on heroin and LSD 1999: First aid tents filled with people who overdosed on Frappuccino and Mountain Dew 13> 1969: Smell of freshly rolled burning joint 1999: Smell of freshly tattooed burning skin 12> 1969: Ignited a generation 1999: Generated an ignition 11> 1969: 3 days of peace, love and understanding 1999: 3 days of pay-per-view for $89.95 10> 1969: "Don't take the brown acid, man!" 1999: "Go easy on the tech stocks, man!" 9> 1969: "Don't stop the rock and roll!" 1999: "Stop, Drop and Roll!" 8> 1969: Bad acid makes everyone sick 1999: MTV VJ Jessie Camp makes everyone sick 7> 1969: "Hey, beautiful, what's your sign?" 1999: "Hey, beautiful, what's your URL?" 6> 1969: 3-day ticket -- $18 1999: 3 sodas -- $18 5> Dead 1969 alums: Janis, Jimi, and Jerry Dead 1999 alums: Peace and love 4> 1969: Go naked for that one-with-nature feeling 1999: Go naked and have your photo end up all over the Internet 3> 1969: "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" 1999: Freedom's just another word for a gassed up SUV and a debit card 2> 1969: Firing up a joint during the show 1999: Burning down the joint after the show and Topfive.com's Number 1 Difference between Woodstock '69 and Woodstock '99... 1> 1969: "We are stardust...." 1999: "We are Starbucks...." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 10:11:14 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: All I Want Bob Muller wrote "I love you when I forget about me" Boy, the more you think about that one the deeper it gets. Is it complimentary? Is it a slam? Is it self-deprecating? All or none of the above?" I agree - the best line in what is arguably the best song on what is arguably her best record. (Note the feeble attempt at repetition - used extensively as a literary device in All I Want - along with multiple and internal rhymes). Here's how that line plays out to me. Not just a double entendre, but layers, as Bob says. Love entails forgetting about oneself, by definition. That frees one to uplift the other. In return, the achievement of that purer state uplifts oneself. Perhaps the other person facilitated your achieving that state - via his or her "love-worthiness" or loveliness. And, more often than not, love sent brings a return gift of love and support from the other, uplifting further. Then, in the act of realizing how wonderful one feels, is there danger of becoming too pleased with oneself, which turns the focus back on "me" again, which in turn can put up an obstacle to achieving the state again ? Or is it just another step in the process - learning to love oneself without that becoming a barrier to loving another(others), and maintaining that precarious balance ? Joni warranted that song by making it the first song on the record, for good reason. I have been fooling around with Howard's arrangement on the guitar (it is tough song to play the dulcimer arrangement well on the guitar, because the guitar is a chromatic instrument - which makes the fingering tricky, while on the dulcimer the fingering is easier). I'm having fun with it, but the tuning is so crazy (G, F, F, F, with the bottom two strings muted) that if I try to retune, I will likely break the strings, so I play only that song for a week, maybe. It gets played on WFUV occasionally. What a song. What an artist. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 10:25:32 -0400 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: A simple & complex line Bob said: >You know how you hear these Joni lines 1 zillion times and they breeze >right by you, and then WHAM all of a sudden they hit you like a ton of >bricks? I was just listening to Lydia van Dam's superb take on "All I Want" >and this line just leapt up at me: >"I love you when I forget about me" >Boy, the more you think about that one the deeper it gets. Is it >complimentary? Is it a slam? Is it self-deprecating? All or none of the >above? Yeah, cool. I never thought about it that way. . the different ways it can be interpreted. ie. is it: >complimentary? Is it a slam? Is it self-deprecating? All or none of the >above? ps. Bob are you playing hard to get? I am stll getting messages bounced back from you. (the aol thing).. now everything I said doesn't seem important anymore. Same for you Laura, I had two bounced today. Marianne _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up  now 2 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 08:52:56 -0600 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Re: music/tune..is it there? TI Em sez: > Its like this album (I forget the title) that Robbie Robertson put out > in the late 80's - GREAT stuff, but mired in that super "studio-ey" > sound. and > I know I'm aberrant - I don't even like chrome on motorcycles! That Robbie alblum was Self-titled...if you're talking about the one with Broken Arrow and Somewhere Down the Crazy River. And...I'm wichya on the chrome, too. Maybe a couple of accents, but NOT a lot! Best Regards, bp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 13:31:51 +0100 From: Garret Subject: Joni's music bizz blues "As the radio blared so bland Every disc, a poker chip Every song just a one night stand Formula music, girly guile Genuine junkfood for juveniles Up and down the dial Mercenary style" JM- taming the tiger One of the things that comes up regularly on the list is Joni's recent views and running commentary on the state of the musis business and isseus of image and talent. You all know what i'm talking about. We've been getting it from Joni for more than a few years. I usually stay out of such discussions, but thought that i would, today, put some floating thoughts down on paper, or, eh, etch them in cyber form or whatever as i was flicking through some latter year Joni articles and found this to be a run ing theme. I think there are a number of reactions that we, the converted, the devout, and, in some cases, obesessed Joniphiles routinely put forward. Most common, i suppose, is agreement with the general flow of her arguement. Some of we agree wholeheartedly. Others nod their heads and may give thanks to whoever that someone is voicing such concerns. Others raise eyebrows and smile nostalgically. Another understandable reaction we have seen on-list agrees taht marketing and image and demographics and youth and breasts and sex have taken the emphasis off talent and songwriting and singing and playing and innovation, but that, even so, there is an important place for all the madonnas and jessica simpsons and jewels and chers in music - variety and choice is an inherent aspect of the industry, the business, the game, the race. All valid. I'm sure i've been all of those people at some point. I wonder what exactly Joni refers to when she discusses the business, the industry with such guile. I imagine radio-play and chart position and popular magazines feature strongly in her reasoning. It seems to me that it would be difficult to justify (at this point i acknowledge that Joni has had personal experience that i could nto understand) her firm, negative viewpoint in the wider context of hte music business, whatever taht is. Away from the mainstream (and nto alwatys that far away), great things happen. Who can disagree? A short, inexhaustive list of names to illustrate of what i write - Rufus Wainwright, Kathryn Williams, Polly Paulasuma, Gillian Welch, Sufjan Stevens, Loretta lynn, Peter Cincotti, Franz Ferdinand, Josh Ritter, Damien Rice, the Waifs, Jolie Holland. Let me point out two things about this list 1) it is merely teh list that springs to my mind, right now. It is probably related to recent exposure. 2) these all produce in English. this ignores great songs andmusic the world over that is proudced in other languages and from other traditions. I'm sure Ashara could provide a nice list in this respect:-) I've slowly been exposing myself to international, non-english music (i can see a joke about me, a trenchcoat and the world music section in HMV.... no comment!!) and have come across some amazing music. Random thoughts as i said. Were Joni discussing movies with the same arguement, i fear she would merely be discussing block-buster, star vehicles, no brainers taht we all know. She would be ignoring a large and vital body of work. This would be ignoring decent mainstream movies like AMerican Beauty and Fight Club. It would be ignoring away-from-mainstream greats like Shine and Pi. And it would be ignoring great non-englsih language movies like Amelie, Goodbye Lenin, and The Twilight Samurai. i think, although may be mistaken, that the principle applies. Good movies with a lot of artistic integrity exist, and can be found if you look beyond the local cineplex (you should see my local its called HollyWood Green... cos i live in an area called Wood Green, lol). Good music, original music, new ideas, great art- this exists and can be found if you look for it. So my question, where is Joni looking? I suspect that there is a level of "my music is great but hasn't been acknowledged as such in a way that would please me" to it. I'm not quiet sure how to work in the fact that, for most of her career, Joni's music has been distances, to varying degrees, from the mainstream. She has been on the fringes of mainstream, significantly outside any reasonable definition of mainstream yet she is not looking there *now* to see taht music really isn't in such a bad state. But, as i said, these are just some wandering thoughts. I owuld like to see joni recognised more. but i would also like her to stop her tireless rant against modern music (ok, so the *business* side of it irks her too). What greater staetment of influence, recognition, success than the high evaluation of her fellow music craftspeople as evidenced in Bob Muellers ever expanding database of covers? (what an awkward sentence!) GARRET Np- Television, Venus - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:19:51 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: david sapp Subject: Re: Best of Covers Vol 1? >David Sapp calls them "essential listening"for Joni fans> Yes I did. And beyond that they are truly fine recordings. Vol 1 in particular is simply SUPERB all the way around and includes my fave - Prince - A Case Of You peace, david ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:48:33 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: All I Want and just think what the original lyrics were!!!! talk about introspection. wally, blue MADE me. > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de > Bobsart48@aol.com > Enviado el: Sabado, 03 de Julio de 2004 11:11 a.m. > Para: joni@smoe.org > CC: SCJoniGuy@aol.com > Asunto: Re: All I Want > > > Bob Muller wrote > > "I love you when I forget about me" > > Boy, the more you think about that one the deeper it gets. Is it > complimentary? Is it a slam? Is it self-deprecating? All or none of the > above?" > > > I agree - the best line in what is arguably the best song on what > is arguably > her best record. > > (Note the feeble attempt at repetition - used extensively as a literary > device in All I Want - along with multiple and internal rhymes). > > Here's how that line plays out to me. Not just a double entendre, > but layers, > as Bob says. Love entails forgetting about oneself, by > definition. That frees > one to uplift the other. In return, the achievement of that purer state > uplifts oneself. Perhaps the other person facilitated your > achieving that state - > via his or her "love-worthiness" or loveliness. And, more often > than not, love > sent brings a return gift of love and support from the other, uplifting > further. Then, in the act of realizing how wonderful one feels, > is there danger of > becoming too pleased with oneself, which turns the focus back on > "me" again, > which in turn can put up an obstacle to achieving the state again > ? Or is it > just another step in the process - learning to love oneself > without that becoming > a barrier to loving another(others), and maintaining that > precarious balance > ? > > Joni warranted that song by making it the first song on the > record, for good > reason. > > I have been fooling around with Howard's arrangement on the guitar (it is > tough song to play the dulcimer arrangement well on the guitar, > because the > guitar is a chromatic instrument - which makes the fingering > tricky, while on the > dulcimer the fingering is easier). I'm having fun with it, but > the tuning is so > crazy (G, F, F, F, with the bottom two strings muted) that if I try to > retune, I will likely break the strings, so I play only that song > for a week, maybe. > > It gets played on WFUV occasionally. > > What a song. What an artist. > > Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 15:55:23 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: A simple & complex line Joni said, >>I love you when I forget about me>> Bob Muller said, >Boy, the more you think about that one the deeper it gets. Is it a.) complimentary? Is it b.) a slam? Is it c.) self-deprecating? d.) All or e.) none of the above?> I guess I'll go with d.) All of the above. If you're happy when you read it, it means, "I'm so into you, I can't think of nothing else," as another song goes. It's only 8 words. It wasn't even on the radio. It's like a Faberge egg but like the Russian toys, there are more eggs inside. It's a funhouse mirror. If you're having fun when you encounter it, you laugh and say, "So true." If you're in a breakup when you encounter it, you get angry or hurt, then say, "So true." On a better day, I called this "exquistite multiplicity". Em, you might want to read this: http://www.jonimitchell.com/Duality.html Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:51:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Lama! your post man I was answering your post, where you were speaking to Bob's discussion of the lyrics from "All I Want", and I hit reply or actually maybe "delete" - and its like GONE. Not even in my trash. I don't get it. hmmm. Anyway, I read your article - very nicely written. And I get what you're saying. And I have NO doubt the post HOSL Joni stuff is totally brilliant. I'm just having to work real hard to "get it" music-wise. Yes the lyrics are friggen stellar and her later voice is quite delightful to me...but I'm having trouble absorbing the musical end, especially the production. Hey its just me... some of this stuff is like eating Brussels Sprouts - no can do. But I'm trying. I'm thinking maybe if I could hear it on a perfect stereo, and if I got EXTREMELY stoned (besides on beer) *maybe* that would nail it for me...but otherwise it remains a struggle. Just not an electric jazz person. Not sure why. I accept that its my failure. But the reason I even broach the topic on here, or talk about it - is that its really quite frustrating..as I feel its "almost" there for me - - just can't *quite* connect. Again, my failure. An oddity of today: I've spent the day shoveling dirt - have about 4 out of 6 yards moved now and was listening to music out there. Listened to John Fogerty's "Premonition" album, Emmy Lou Harris "Live at the Ryman", the Dead, "Reckoning" and Joni's TI. And you know whats in my head now????? "I am on a lonely road and I am travelling travelling travelling"...can't get it out of my head tho I've not listened to it in a week. That stuff on Blue was THAT strong..infectiously strong. As far as TI, so far the song "Turbulent Indigo" has me pretty fascinated (love the Jackson Pollock reference) and Sire of Sorrow. I love the Canada-way she says the word "Sorrow". LOL!!!!!!! I wish she would cover that old tune "Sorrow" . You know, "with your long blonde hair and your eyes of blue.." then I'd get to hear her say "sorrow" quite alot! By the way I found what you said about the Police pretty interesting. Loved the early Police stuff, up to "Ghost in the Machine". Solo Sting however, leaves me cold. Totally. Have an album of African stuff done by ex Police drummer Stuart (sp?) Copeland called "The Rhythmatist". I like it SO much I had the album - wore it out and bought the CD. Anyway, I guess people digest what they can digest - and sometimes they even learn to love Brussels Sprouts. So who knows. ::shrug:: anyway, again, Lama, I enjoyed reading what you had to say in your article. Em ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 02:29:49 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: July 4 On July 4 the following articles were published: 1997: "Joni Mitchell merits local recognition" - Saskatoon StarPhoenix (Opinion) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=736 2000: "Joni Mitchell" - Jam! Website (Biography) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=732 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #188 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)