From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #182 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, June 28 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 182 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Case of You ["G'n H" ] Re: Case of You [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Joni and Bob ["Martin Giles" ] Re: Joni and Bob [Em ] Joni guitar and rapping [steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder)] Re: Joni and Bob ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: Joni and Bob [Em ] Re: HappY Birthday ["Donna Binkley" ] Re: Joni and Bob ["Martin Giles" ] Re: Joni and Bob [Em ] Re: Joni and Bob ["Martin Giles" ] Re: Joni and Bob [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Re: Joni and Bob [Em ] Re: Joni guitar and rapping [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: Joni and Bob [Smurfycopy@aol.com] false on film [KindTaper@aol.com] The Beginning of Survival and hi again! ["amelio747" ] BMG Music Special [Michaelpaz@aol.com] RE: Joni and Bob ["Les Irvin" ] Re: Joni and Bob [Randy Remote ] RE: Joni and Bob now jc again/interview [Em ] Re: Joni and Bob [LCStanley7@aol.com] RE: Joni and Bob ["hell" ] Re: Joni and Bob [LCStanley7@aol.com] Re: Joni and Bob [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni and Bob [Em ] Re: Joni and Bob [Em ] Re: Joni and Bob [Joseph Palis ] RE: Joni and Bob ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Joni and Bob ["Mark or Travis" ] Re: The Beginning of Survival and hi again! [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:45:43 +0300 From: "G'n H" Subject: Case of You Hi, have you heard this version by Jane Monheit and Richard Bona? http://webusers.siba.fi/~lsippola/A%20Case%20Of%20You.mp3 I think it's not bad. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 07:00:18 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Case of You **have you heard this version by Jane Monheit and Richard Bona? I have...I like it just fine but I also know that Jane has some non-fans here. I'm a pretty easy sell when it comes to Joni covers though... Bob, just mere days away from a new volume NP: Red House Painters, "Void" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:31:18 +0100 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Joni and Bob Hi folks This is something that just comes out of the blue really, but is something I've wondered about often. Many times I've heard people talk about poetry in popular music, and the only name that comes up is Bob Dylan. More than a couple of times I've heard interviews with poets on the radio who champion Dylan but never mention Joni. Now this is not meant as any kind of insult to Dylan, but I haven't heard any lyrics of his that I would call poetry in the way that I would Ms. Mitchell. I don't dislike him; he's pithy, often funny, often right on the nail. I just haven't found anything in his lyrics that strikes me in anything like the way Joni's lyrics do. Of course, not 'getting' him that much means that I'm not familiar with a lot of his stuff. So let's set 'em up. Joni vs. Bob .. Strike one for Joni; 'Pawn shops glitter like gold tooth caps In the grey decay They chew the last few dollars off Old Beale Street's Carcass Carrion and mercy.' Martin. In London. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 05:25:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Martin says: > Of course, not 'getting' him that much means that I'm not familiar > with a > lot of his stuff. So let's set 'em up. Joni vs. Bob .. > > Strike one for Joni; > > 'Pawn shops glitter like gold tooth caps > In the grey decay > They chew the last few dollars off Old Beale Street's Carcass > Carrion and mercy.' Hi Martin, one problem I can see with this, is that without the music, some of both their stuff doesn't mean a whole lot. For instance those lines you quoted, just by themselves...without the music and without the rest of the song, don't do a whole lot for me. The other thing, on this list at least, is that more folks are likely to know Joni's lyrics, tho many on here know their Dylan as well. So Joni will have the distinct advantage in these here parts. I guess I don't see the point. There's enough aggravation in the world. They're both great, and I don't see them treading on each other's toes. And much as the feminist in me would love to see the Joni on top, nah, Bob Dylan rules. You say you've not heard much Dylan? A recommendation, start with his 60's and 70's and early 80's stuff. "Times They are a Changing" through, say, "Street Legal". Bob's lyrics are more "songy" than Joni's. Hers are more "opus"-like. Some of his are short little songs, and some are big ol honkers..but what I like about Bob is his seeming "no fear" to tossing things "off the cuff"..like this song may not be perfect or slick in any way, but its his art, and its what blew out his ass and it totally slays me. So here's some Bob lyrics for our shared Monday: (and of course this is just one of a ZILLION great songs of his) 'Twas in another lifetime, one of toil and blood When blackness was a virtue and the road was full of mud I came in from the wilderness, a creature void of form. "Come in," she said, "I'll give you shelter from the storm." And if I pass this way again, you can rest assured I'll always do my best for her, on that I give my word In a world of steel-eyed death, and men who are fighting to be warm. "Come in," she said, "I'll give you shelter from the storm." Not a word was spoke between us, there was little risk involved Everything up to that point had been left unresolved. Try imagining a place where it's always safe and warm. "Come in," she said, "I'll give you shelter from the storm." I was burned out from exhaustion, buried in the hail, Poisoned in the bushes an' blown out on the trail, Hunted like a crocodile, ravaged in the corn. "Come in," she said, "I'll give you shelter from the storm." Suddenly I turned around and she was standin' there With silver bracelets on her wrists and flowers in her hair. She walked up to me so gracefully and took my crown of thorns. "Come in," she said, "I'll give you shelter from the storm." Now there's a wall between us, somethin' there's been lost I took too much for granted, got my signals crossed. Just to think that it all began on a long-forgotten morn. "Come in," she said, "I'll give you shelter from the storm." Well, the deputy walks on hard nails and the preacher rides a mount But nothing really matters much, it's doom alone that counts And the one-eyed undertaker, he blows a futile horn. "Come in," she said, "I'll give you shelter from the storm." I've heard newborn babies wailin' like a mournin' dove And old men with broken teeth stranded without love. Do I understand your question, man, is it hopeless and forlorn? "Come in," she said, "I'll give you shelter from the storm." In a little hilltop village, they gambled for my clothes I bargained for salvation an' they gave me a lethal dose. I offered up my innocence and got repaid with scorn. "Come in," she said, "I'll give you shelter from the storm." Well, I'm livin' in a foreign country but I'm bound to cross the line Beauty walks a razor's edge, someday I'll make it mine. If I could only turn back the clock to when God and her were born. "Come in," she said, "I'll give you shelter from the storm." :) Em ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:55 +0100 (BST) From: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Gabrielle Tedder) Subject: Joni guitar and rapping Someone off list suggested I share a couple of recent Joni related events to befall me recently - so I will. At the end of February, I had the good fortune to see rising English singer/songwriter Amy Wadge play a local venue. I thought she was a really gutsy tune smith(was described in local promo stuff as the new Joni Mitchell, but she's nothing like Joni but different and good nonetheless). I was somewhat the worse for wear for beer that night and, whilst purchasing her cd, muttered in an unfortunately slurred voice that 'If I were years younger I'd follow your tour like I did Joni Mitchell in '83.' Amy said how much she loved Joni - which was rather daft on her behalf because I came fully into contact with my Jonivangelist and began to blurt out endless tales of Joni Fest (if you haven't been - go. It'll change your life) and our purchase of the blonde guitar. Owning Joni's guitar elevated me instantly to celebrity status and I promised that I'd bring it along for Amy to play sometime. From there, Amy and I kept in touch and we seem to get along quite well. A couple of weeks ago, Amy played on a Bob Harris Presents night (he of the old UK show 'Old Grey Whistle Test') at Johnny Dankworth and Cleo Laine's venue The Stables. Amy topped the bill and, at the end of the night, we sat in the foyer playing Coyote and Hejira. Her bass player and producer, one Dave Bronze, says that Hejira is his all time favourite album and both Amy and Dave posed for photos with the guitar. Anyway, to top it all, Amy had secured the support slot (from over 250 artists) that very day for the UK tour with Jeff Beck and is currently playing all over the UK with said top guitarist. Last week the tour reached the Albert Hall in London and was sold out for both nights. What's really nice was that Amy got Steph and I a couple of complimentary tickets and even dedicated a tune to us! Anyway, it's nice to know that more big Joni devotees are currently out on tour and if they're coming your way go and see them! This only goes to show the old adage 'Have Joni guitar - will travel and get freebies!' My other news is that I have been doing quite a bit of session work recently and, as some know, been working with a rapper. I am frankly astonished at a lot of his writing and performing and thought that I must get him some Joni lyrics to peruse. He is blown away by Joni. 'Man, that Hejira is DEEP' were his exact words. Yup - quite right! Love Anita xx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 07:14:17 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni and Bob I don't dislike him; he's > pithy, often funny, often right on the nail. I just haven't found > anything in his lyrics that strikes me in anything like the way > Joni's lyrics do. > > Of course, not 'getting' him that much means that I'm not familiar > with a lot of his stuff. So let's set 'em up. Joni vs. Bob .. I think they are both great in their own way but very different. There's room for both. Just don't say that Joni is the greatest *female* singer/songwriter. At least not to Joni's face! Mark E in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 07:39:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Mark wrote: > I think they are both great in their own way but very different. > There's room for both. I agree. I've been sitting here thinking that Bob is much less "refined" than Joni. Its rougher stuff. Even a bit "stinky". Both have an "edge" to them, but Joni's is a straight edge and Bob's is more "serrated". Both super-useful, but one uses them for different things. Also, one question...its been really delightful to me - the number of gay folks on this list. Wondering if a Dylan list would have such a high-ish percentage of, say, gay men, as this Joni list. You think? or? > Just don't > say that Joni is the greatest *female* singer/songwriter. At least > not to Joni's face! no I agree with this too. She stands shoulder to shoulder with any songwriter, male or female. However, I think Joni does have the *Diva* thing going on just a bit. ::shrug:: I could be wrong. Its like comparing Vermeer to Rembrandt, why bother? Like comparing Van Gogh to Gauguin. Why bother? Yet people do it all the time, yes? Guess its just in our nature. But its like a dog is a very nice pet and a cat is also a very nice pet..yet they appeal to different people - and some like both. I'm one of those, I like "both". I am "bi". I like Bob and Joni both, but given the desert island scenario I'll take Bob. :) Em ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:42:04 -0500 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: HappY Birthday Happy Birthday from Texas Jerry! Sounds like you're in good hands in NYC, love db >>> Michael Paz 6/26/2004 9:30:02 PM >>> To the King of Roasted Corn on the BarBQue. May you have a wonderful birthday celebration in the big apple amongst friends. Many more! Paz This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:43:38 +0100 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Hi Em Thanks for taking the time to print a whole song for me :) I guess I put it badly by writing Joni vs. Bob. I'm really not trying to ask who the best, like you say, 'Its like comparing Vermeer to Rembrandt'. I'm just trying to get some insight into why Dylan gets the attention he does and nobody ever mentions another poet that we all know. What is it about him that poets refer to exclusively when they talk about poetry in popular music? The Joni snippet that I chose is from 'Furry Sings The Blues' on Hejira. It's one of scores of times where she manages to paint a thousand pictures with so few words. I love the comparison to gold tooth caps, picturing some beat-up old face with glittering teeth - just as the Street is old and beat-up, punctuated by the cheap glitter of pawn shops. But then she makes that extra leap, because their function fits the image also .. 'They chew the last few dollars off Old Beale Street's Carcass'. Wonderful. And then the final 'Shadows And Light' insight - 'Carrion and mercy.' That's the stuff that makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. I know that there are a lot of jmdlers that are big Dylan fans, so I'm sure you'll be able to tell me what gives you the shivers with his work. Martin. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Em" To: "Martin Giles" ; Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 1:25 PM Subject: Re: Joni and Bob > Hi Martin, > one problem I can see with this, is that without the music, some of > both their stuff doesn't mean a whole lot. > For instance those lines you quoted, just by themselves...without the > music and without the rest of the song, don't do a whole lot for me. > The other thing, on this list at least, is that more folks are likely > to know Joni's lyrics, tho many on here know their Dylan as well. So > Joni will have the distinct advantage in these here parts. > > I guess I don't see the point. > There's enough aggravation in the world. They're both great, and I > don't see them treading on each other's toes. > And much as the feminist in me would love to see the Joni on top, nah, > Bob Dylan rules. > You say you've not heard much Dylan? A recommendation, start with his > 60's and 70's and early 80's stuff. > "Times They are a Changing" through, say, "Street Legal". > Bob's lyrics are more "songy" than Joni's. Hers are more "opus"-like. > Some of his are short little songs, and some are big ol honkers..but > what I like about Bob is his seeming "no fear" to tossing things "off > the cuff"..like this song may not be perfect or slick in any way, but > its his art, and its what blew out his ass and it totally slays me. > > So here's some Bob lyrics for our shared Monday: > (and of course this is just one of a ZILLION great songs of his) > > > 'Twas in another lifetime, one of toil and blood > When blackness was a virtue and the road was full of mud > I came in from the wilderness, a creature void of form. > "Come in," she said, > "I'll give you shelter from the storm." > > And if I pass this way again, you can rest assured > I'll always do my best for her, on that I give my word > In a world of steel-eyed death, and men who are fighting to be warm. > "Come in," she said, > "I'll give you shelter from the storm." > > Not a word was spoke between us, there was little risk involved > Everything up to that point had been left unresolved. > Try imagining a place where it's always safe and warm. > "Come in," she said, > "I'll give you shelter from the storm." > > I was burned out from exhaustion, buried in the hail, > Poisoned in the bushes an' blown out on the trail, > Hunted like a crocodile, ravaged in the corn. > "Come in," she said, > "I'll give you shelter from the storm." > > Suddenly I turned around and she was standin' there > With silver bracelets on her wrists and flowers in her hair. > She walked up to me so gracefully and took my crown of thorns. > "Come in," she said, > "I'll give you shelter from the storm." > > Now there's a wall between us, somethin' there's been lost > I took too much for granted, got my signals crossed. > Just to think that it all began on a long-forgotten morn. > "Come in," she said, > "I'll give you shelter from the storm." > > Well, the deputy walks on hard nails and the preacher rides a mount > But nothing really matters much, it's doom alone that counts > And the one-eyed undertaker, he blows a futile horn. > "Come in," she said, > "I'll give you shelter from the storm." > > I've heard newborn babies wailin' like a mournin' dove > And old men with broken teeth stranded without love. > Do I understand your question, man, is it hopeless and forlorn? > "Come in," she said, > "I'll give you shelter from the storm." > > In a little hilltop village, they gambled for my clothes > I bargained for salvation an' they gave me a lethal dose. > I offered up my innocence and got repaid with scorn. > "Come in," she said, > "I'll give you shelter from the storm." > > Well, I'm livin' in a foreign country but I'm bound to cross the line > Beauty walks a razor's edge, someday I'll make it mine. > If I could only turn back the clock to when God and her were born. > "Come in," she said, > "I'll give you shelter from the storm." > > :) > Em > > > > > ===== > ------- > "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." > Tee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:10:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Martin wrote about the possibility of loving both Joni AND Bob: It's always been Joni for me. That desert island > would > echo to the strains of Hejira or Blue. Let's just say I'm > bi-curious!! Hi Martin Well if you end up getting into Bob fro real, you have an amazing backlog of delights yet to encounter in your life! So you are a lucky man! ;) Much as I count myself a very lucky woman, indeed, to finally know the pleasures of Hejira, and to have more and more Joni to learn. As far as what you'd said about Joni giving you the shivers..yeah about the 2nd time I heard Song For Sharon, it gave me BIG shivers. Especially that alll I really want is to fiiiind another lover. OMG! how climactic! I was like "she yelled"! Joni yelled! and I loved it!! Not sure Bob gives me shivers..but he RIPS my face off and amazes me anew each time I listen. well yeah, shivers too... if I were gonna give you another Bob song, I'd lay "To Ramona" on you. wishing you much JOY in your explorations! Em ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:49:58 +0100 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Em said: > But its like a dog is a very nice pet and a cat is also a very nice > pet..yet they appeal to different people - and some like both. > I'm one of those, I like "both". I am "bi". I like Bob and Joni both, > but given the desert island scenario I'll take Bob. > Well I'm straight. It's always been Joni for me. That desert island would echo to the strains of Hejira or Blue. Let's just say I'm bi-curious!! Martin. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:47:17 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Martin asks: << I'm just trying to get some insight into why Dylan gets the attention he does and nobody ever mentions another poet that we all know. What is it about him that poets refer to exclusively when they talk about poetry in popular music? >> After a lifetime of seeing women's contributions in every area of the arts and sciences minimized, I would have to say it's the fact that he has a penis. - --Smurf "Treat a work of art like a prince. Let it speak to you first." - --Artie Schopenhauer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:09:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni and Bob I had said: "I like Bob and Joni both, but given the desert island scenario I'll take Bob. and then Smurf came up with: "I would have to say it's the fact that he has a penis. " so, I would like to elaborate that for MUSICAL/POETIC reasons, yeah I'd still have to pick Dylan, penis and all...but if I had to pick one of them to SLEEP with on that same island...wellllll....I think Ms. Joni Mitchell gets the nod, in a BIG way. Thinking I'm bound to have offended somebody with that one. :) Em < Subject: Re: Joni guitar and rapping Great story Anita. Ah, the places Joni's guitar (and a little beer) can take you. xo Jenny Anita Gabrielle Tedder wrote: Someone off list suggested I share a couple of recent Joni related events to befall me recently - so I will. At the end of February, I had the good fortune to see rising English singer/songwriter Amy Wadge play a local venue. I thought she was a really gutsy tune smith(was described in local promo stuff as the new Joni Mitchell, but she's nothing like Joni but different and good nonetheless). I was somewhat the worse for wear for beer that night and, whilst purchasing her cd, muttered in an unfortunately slurred voice that 'If I were years younger I'd follow your tour like I did Joni Mitchell in '83.' Amy said how much she loved Joni - which was rather daft on her behalf because I came fully into contact with my Jonivangelist and began to blurt out endless tales of Joni Fest (if you haven't been - go. It'll change your life) and our purchase of the blonde guitar. Owning Joni's guitar elevated me instantly to celebrity status and I promised that I'd bring it along for Amy to play sometime. From there, Amy and I kept in touch and we seem to get along quite well. A couple of weeks ago, Amy played on a Bob Harris Presents night (he of the old UK show 'Old Grey Whistle Test') at Johnny Dankworth and Cleo Laine's venue The Stables. Amy topped the bill and, at the end of the night, we sat in the foyer playing Coyote and Hejira. Her bass player and producer, one Dave Bronze, says that Hejira is his all time favourite album and both Amy and Dave posed for photos with the guitar. Anyway, to top it all, Amy had secured the support slot (from over 250 artists) that very day for the UK tour with Jeff Beck and is currently playing all over the UK with said top guitarist. Last week the tour reached the Albert Hall in London and was sold out for both nights. What's really nice was that Amy got Steph and I a couple of complimentary tickets and even dedicated a tune to us! Anyway, it's nice to know that more big Joni devotees are currently out on tour and if they're coming your way go and see them! This only goes to show the old adage 'Have Joni guitar - will travel and get freebies!' My other news is that I have been doing quite a bit of session work recently and, as some know, been working with a rapper. I am frankly astonished at a lot of his writing and performing and thought that I must get him some Joni lyrics to peruse. He is blown away by Joni. 'Man, that Hejira is DEEP' were his exact words. Yup - quite right! Love Anita xx Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:28:48 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Jing writes: << I had said: "I like Bob and Joni both, but given the desert island scenario I'll take Bob. and then Smurf came up with: "I would have to say it's the fact that he has a penis. " >> For the sake of clarification, my response had nothing to do with sex appeal or my choice of a desert island mate. I was opining that Dylan gets more respect as a poet simply because of his gender. - --Smurf "Treat a work of art like a prince. Let it speak to you first." - --Artie Schopenhauer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:20:51 EDT From: KindTaper@aol.com Subject: false on film Cindy said: <> I couldn't agree more, and I never said I was pro-gov't, pro-bush or anything. I am like anyone. I have my questions, concerns and doubts about the gov't's handling of everything from tax money, to 9/11, to cronyism, to you name it. I am for the party of less gov't involvement and more personal responsibility and freedom. But when I see a case of someone using deception to further their own political agenda, I have a problem with it. In this case, it's Michael Moore. Thanks, Wes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:19:42 +0100 From: "amelio747" Subject: The Beginning of Survival and hi again! Hi! Not been on the list for a while coz I wasn't feeling too good. Hopefully I've not been totally forgotten ;) So I'm sure this has all been discussed...but what does everyone think of the track-listing for "The Beginning Of Survival (please tell me there is an abbreviation for that!)??? I think she is as brave as ever coz' you couldn't have picked lesser known Joni tracks! Of course they are songs with strong statements which I'm guessing is the main point. I happen to like a lot of these tracks, in fact "Fiction" is one of my favourites! The whole DED album has become such a revelation. CMIARS however still sounds terrible as ever to me. So this CD is hardly going to be a cheery one, but it's great to see she is defying the industry as ever! NP: You Learn - Alanis Morissette * * * * * * Stephen T ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:01:29 +0000 From: "Patti Parlette" Subject: joni in "dear amy" I saw that, too, Vince, and I was going to share it here today. Thanks for saving me the typing time! I'll bet that's the first time Joni Mitchell was ever mentioned in an advice column. Peace, Patti _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:03:10 EDT From: Michaelpaz@aol.com Subject: BMG Music Special Hey Guys here is a real good one espeically for all you newbies to Joni music. bmgmusic.com is having a 70% off sale. You can pick up most of Joni's albums for $5.39 or less. I have been a member for awhile and have gotten some killer deals. ( F4OD10 ) enter this code on the home page for the discount. I don't know if you have to be a member to get this deal. Good luck and happy listening. Best Paz NP-My Launchcast Radio Station-Love Somebody-the subdudes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:46:03 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: Joni and Bob > I'm just trying to get some > insight into why Dylan gets the attention he does and nobody > ever mentions another poet that we all know. What is it about > him that poets refer to exclusively when they talk about > poetry in popular music? First a quote from Joni from 1994 (http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=193): "It wasn't until Dylan wrote Positively Fourth Street that a light bulb went on in my head. I thought, oh my God, we can write about anything now. Prior to that song, anger was a kind of closeted emotion, it just never went into songs." Joni hits it on the head, I think. Dylan suddenly, single-handedly made it OK to write meaningful, challenging lyrics. And I think *that* is what all the fuss is about. Although Joni is arguably a "deeper" and consistently better quality writer, Dylan is certainly no slouch. He does have a larger lyrical output than Joni (BobDylan.com lists about 375 written by him - as opposed to about 170 by Joni) and, more importantly, he was simply waaaaaaaay ahead of the times with what he had to say in his songs. Not to say that Joni wasn't - but Dylan was doing it first, as early as 1962. Witness... Top 10 Song from 1962 ("Johnny Angel" - Shelley Fabares) I remember how I get carried away. I dream of him and me, and how it's gonna be. Other fellas call me up for a date, but I just sit and wait, I'd rather concentrate on Johnny Angel. Dylan's "Death of Emmitt Till" from 1962: If you can't speak out against this kind of thing, a crime that's so unjust, Your eyes are filled with dead men's dirt, your mind is filled with dust. Your arms and legs they must be in shackles and chains, and your blood it must refuse to flow, For you let this human race fall down so God-awful low! Top 10 Song from 1963 ("He's so Fine" - Chiffons) He4s so fine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) Wish he were mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) That handsome boy over there (Dolang, dolang, dolang) The one with the wavy hair (Dolang, dolang, dolang) I don4t know how I4m gonna do it (Dolang, dolang, dolang) But I4m gonna make him mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) Dylan's "Paths of Victory" from 1963: I walked down by the river, I turned my head up high. I saw that silver linin' That was hangin' in the sky. Trails of troubles, Roads of battles, Paths of victory, We shall walk. Top 10 Song from 1965 ("Eight Days a Week" - Beatles) Oooh I need your love babe, Guess you know its true. Hope you need my love babe, Just like I need you. Hold me, love me, hold me, love me. Aint got nothin but love babe, Eight days a week. Dylan's "Mr Tambourine Man" from 1965: Though I know that evening's empire has returned into sand, Vanished from my hand, Left me blindly here to stand but still not sleeping. My weariness amazes me, I'm branded on my feet, I have no one to meet And the ancient empty street's too dead for dreaming. Top 10 Song from 1967 ("Kind of a Drag" - Buckinghams) Oh oh, listen to what I've gotta to say Girl, I still love you I'll always love you Anyway, anyway, anyway Kind of a drag When your baby says goodbye Dylan's "Tears of Rage" from 1967: We carried you in our arms on Independence Day, And now you'd throw us all aside and put us on our way. Oh what dear daughter 'neath the sun would treat a father so, To wait upon him hand and foot and always tell him, "No"? Tears of rage, tears of grief, Why must I always be the thief? Just my humble opinion... Les (not from London) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 15:43:39 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Martin Giles wrote: > this is not meant as any kind of insult to Dylan, but I haven't > heard any lyrics of his that I would call poetry in the way that I would Ms. > Mitchell Lots of titles come to mind as extremely poetic. IF DOGS RUN FREE (Words and Music by Bob Dylan, 1970) If dogs run free, then why not we Across the swooping plain? My ears hear a symphony Of two mules, trains and rain. The best is always yet to come, That's what they explain to me. Just do your thing, you'll be king, If dogs run free. If dogs run free, why not me Across the swamp of time? My mind weaves a symphony And tapestry of rhyme. Oh, winds which rush my tale to thee So it may flow and be, To each his own, it's all unknown, If dogs run free. If dogs run free, then what must be, Must be, and that is all. True love can make a blade of grass Stand up straight and tall. In harmony with the cosmic sea, True love needs no company, It can cure the soul, it can make it whole, If dogs run free. Also: My Back Pages http://orad.dent.kyushu-u.ac.jp/dylan/mybackpa.html I Want You http://orad.dent.kyushu-u.ac.jp/dylan/iwantyou.html It's Alright Ma http://orad.dent.kyushu-u.ac.jp/dylan/itsalrma.html Temptation's page flies out the door You follow, find yourself at war Watch waterfalls of pity roar You feel to moan but unlike before You discover That you'd just be One more person crying. > > > Strike one for Joni; > > 'Pawn shops glitter like gold tooth caps > In the grey decay > They chew the last few dollars off Old Beale Street's Carcass > Carrion and mercy.' > > Martin. In London. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:00:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: RE: Joni and Bob now jc again/interview Oh and one more thing; THANKS for passing that interview on. Thats got to be one of the best musician interviews I've ever read. And so perfect for the point of "joni-learning" that I happen to be at right now. Oh and another thing. Joni Mitchell gives MUCH better interviews than Bobby D. No comparison. Bless her. I'm gonna go order TI right NOW. Em - --- Em wrote: > guess I should have said bravissimo Les'es. bravissimo ya'll Lesses. > Em > > --- Em wrote: > > Bravissimo, Les! > > What great points you make. > > :) > > Em > > > > --- Les Irvin wrote: > > > > I'm just trying to get some > > > > insight into why Dylan gets the attention he does and nobody > > > > ever mentions another poet that we all know. What is it about > > > > him that poets refer to exclusively when they talk about > > > > poetry in popular music? > > > > > > First a quote from Joni from 1994 > > > (http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=193): > > > "It wasn't until Dylan wrote Positively Fourth Street that a > light > > > bulb went > > > on in my head. I thought, oh my God, we can write about anything > > now. > > > Prior > > > to that song, anger was a kind of closeted emotion, it just never > > > went into > > > songs." > > > > > > Joni hits it on the head, I think. Dylan suddenly, > single-handedly > > > made it > > > OK to write meaningful, challenging lyrics. And I think *that* > is > > > what all > > > the fuss is about. Although Joni is arguably a "deeper" and > > > consistently > > > better quality writer, Dylan is certainly no slouch. He does > have > > a > > > larger > > > lyrical output than Joni (BobDylan.com lists about 375 written by > > him > > > - as > > > opposed to about 170 by Joni) and, more importantly, he was > simply > > > waaaaaaaay ahead of the times with what he had to say in his > songs. > > > > > Not to > > > say that Joni wasn't - but Dylan was doing it first, as early as > > > 1962. > > > > > > Witness... > > > > > > Top 10 Song from 1962 ("Johnny Angel" - Shelley Fabares) > > > I remember how I get carried away. > > > I dream of him and me, and how it's gonna be. > > > Other fellas call me up for a date, > > > but I just sit and wait, I'd rather concentrate on Johnny Angel. > > > > > > Dylan's "Death of Emmitt Till" from 1962: > > > If you can't speak out against this kind of thing, a crime that's > > so > > > unjust, > > > Your eyes are filled with dead men's dirt, your mind is filled > with > > > dust. > > > Your arms and legs they must be in shackles and chains, and your > > > blood it > > > must refuse to flow, > > > For you let this human race fall down so God-awful low! > > > > > > > > > Top 10 Song from 1963 ("He's so Fine" - Chiffons) > > > He4s so fine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > > Wish he were mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > > That handsome boy over there (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > > The one with the wavy hair (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > > I don4t know how I4m gonna do it (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > > But I4m gonna make him mine (Dolang, dolang, dolang) > > > > > > Dylan's "Paths of Victory" from 1963: > > > I walked down by the river, I turned my head up high. > > > I saw that silver linin' That was hangin' in the sky. > > > Trails of troubles, Roads of battles, > > > Paths of victory, We shall walk. > > > > > > > > > Top 10 Song from 1965 ("Eight Days a Week" - Beatles) > > > Oooh I need your love babe, Guess you know its true. > > > Hope you need my love babe, Just like I need you. > > > Hold me, love me, hold me, love me. > > > Aint got nothin but love babe, Eight days a week. > > > > > > Dylan's "Mr Tambourine Man" from 1965: > > > Though I know that evening's empire has returned into sand, > > Vanished > > > from my > > > hand, > > > Left me blindly here to stand but still not sleeping. > > > My weariness amazes me, I'm branded on my feet, I have no one to > > meet > > > And the ancient empty street's too dead for dreaming. > > > > > > > > > Top 10 Song from 1967 ("Kind of a Drag" - Buckinghams) > > > Oh oh, listen to what I've gotta to say > > > Girl, I still love you I'll always love you > > > Anyway, anyway, anyway Kind of a drag > > > When your baby says goodbye > > > > > > Dylan's "Tears of Rage" from 1967: > > > We carried you in our arms on Independence Day, > > > And now you'd throw us all aside and put us on our way. > > > Oh what dear daughter 'neath the sun would treat a father so, > > > To wait upon him hand and foot and always tell him, "No"? > > > Tears of rage, tears of grief, Why must I always be the thief? > > > > > > > > > Just my humble opinion... > > > Les (not from London) > > > > > > > > > ===== > > ------- > > "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." > > Tee > > > > > ===== > ------- > "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." > Tee > ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:24:15 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Martin in London wrote: Now this is not meant as any kind of insult to Dylan, but I haven't heard any lyrics of his that I would call poetry in the way that I would Ms. Mitchell. I don't dislike him; he's pithy, often funny, often right on the nail. I just haven't found anything in his lyrics that strikes me in anything like the way Joni's lyrics do. Hi Martin! I couldn't agree with you more! When I was younger, more bitchy, and just learning to play guitar I could relate to and prefered Dylan's lyrics and music over Joni's. But, now I guess I'm more of a romantic and enjoy the greater challenge of Joni's guitar work. In my opinion, both are excellent poets, but they are very different. Joni's poetry strikes me as much more romantic than Dylan's as does her style of music. I hear Dylan whining out "baby let me follow you down" or "Well, I took me a woman late last night" or "Babe, I'd do it all over you" or "when your rooster crows at the break of dawn, look out your window and I'll be gone" or "she aches just like a woman but she breaks just like a little girl," or trying to get mellow singing "lay lady lay, lay across my big brass bed." These are cute and catchy but not my idea of romantic or very deep. Yes, some of his lyrics are romantic, like in Girl from the North Country or Love Minus Zero/No Limit or She Belongs to Me. But overall, I just don't think much of romantic when I think of Dylan's poetry and music. I do however when I think of Joni's, pretty much regardless of the topic. Even many of her lyrics with political overtones strike me as romantic... like The Fiddle and the Drum which is about the relationship between Canada and the USA. In regard to differences in their poetry, I would also say Dylan looks into himself and speaks from there while Joni is a visionary who looks out and speaks from a more mystical place. Overall, Dylan's lyrics and music give me the feeling that he is very much into himself; whereas, Joni's gives me the feeling that she is very much into other people and outside of herself. I find Joni's poetry is much more beautiful than Dylan's... and so is everything about her song and music. I enjoy Dylan's songs, but I am carried away by Joni's. Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:15:54 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: RE: Joni and Bob Martin wrote: > Of course, not 'getting' him that much means that I'm not familiar with a > lot of his stuff. So let's set 'em up. Joni vs. Bob .. > > Strike one for Joni; > > 'Pawn shops glitter like gold tooth caps > In the grey decay > They chew the last few dollars off Old Beale Street's Carcass > Carrion and mercy.' Well, Les has already answered this better than I could, but I absolutely agree with his comments. And Bob might be a little "rougher" sometimes in his lyrics than Joni, and more "in your face", but the poetry is definitely there. I won't post the entire song's lyrics (just a verse or two from each), but can recommend these as songs that "hit me" when I first heard them. The entire lyrics are available from http://bobdylan.com/songs/ (and there are a hundred more I could have chosen). Dylan definitely rates as a poet in my book.... It's Alright Ma, I'm Only Bleeding Disillusioned words like bullets bark As human gods aim for their mark Made everything from toy guns that spark To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark It's easy to see without looking too far That not much is really sacred. While preachers preach of evil fates Teachers teach that knowledge waits Can lead to hundred-dollar plates Goodness hides behind its gates But even the president of the United States Sometimes must have to stand naked. Every Grain Of Sand I have gone from rags to riches in the sorrow of the night In the violence of a summer's dream, in the chill of a wintry light, In the bitter dance of loneliness fading into space, In the broken mirror of innocence on each forgotten face. I hear the ancient footsteps like the motion of the sea Sometimes I turn, there's someone there, other times it's only me. I am hanging in the balance of the reality of man Like every sparrow falling, like every grain of sand. My Back Pages Crimson flames tied through my ears Rollin' high and mighty traps Pounced with fire on flaming roads Using ideas as my maps "We'll meet on edges, soon," said I Proud 'neath heated brow. Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth "Rip down all hate," I screamed Lies that life is black and white Spoke from my skull. I dreamed Romantic facts of musketeers Foundationed deep, somehow. Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. Hell ____________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:33:43 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Martin wrote: I'm just trying to get some insight into why Dylan gets the attention he does and nobody ever mentions another poet that we all know. What is it about him that poets refer to exclusively when they talk about poetry in popular music? Hi Martin! Maybe it is the appeal of the harsh west...??? I wonder what they think in France where they kiss on mainstreet? Love, Laura ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:49:28 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and Bob Don't know why it always comes down to Joni & Bob...of course they're both brilliant, but for my money Tom Waits & Ani Difranco are right up with them. And hey, 3 out of the 4 are still writing! Bob NP: Andy Partridge, "Don't Let Us Bug Ya" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:53:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni and Bob - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Don't know why it always comes down to Joni & Bob...of course they're > both > brilliant, but for my money Tom Waits & Ani Difranco are right up > with them. Hi Bob I feel that others briefly rise to the Joni/Bob level sometimes. Like Leonard Cohen. (which Joni states in that interview Les linkes) LC has. Alot. But for sheer *amount* of great stuff I think its Dylan. Its like he's Steinbeck and everyone else is Norman Mailer. Well no maybe Woody G. was Steinbeck..and Bob D. Is Kerouac and everyone else is just Ginsberg. ::shrug:: am I a fascist and/or just closeminded? How about good ol' John Stewart?? 'Nother great songwriter. Em ps I'm just jamming on this..don't nobody quote me, k? pps no disrespect to Ginsberg..much greatness there... but not the Ti Jean/Dylan gypsy-boy charm ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:55:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Joni and Bob - --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > Don't know why it always comes down to Joni & Bob...of course they're > both > brilliant, but for my money Tom Waits & Ani Difranco are right up > with them. Hi Bob I feel that others briefly rise to the Joni/Bob level sometimes. Like Leonard Cohen. (which Joni states in that interview Les linkes) LC has. Alot. But for sheer *amount* of great stuff I think its Dylan. Its like he's Steinbeck and everyone else is Norman Mailer. Well no maybe Woody G. was Steinbeck..and Bob D. Is Kerouac and everyone else is just Ginsberg. ::shrug:: am I a fascist and/or just closeminded? How about good ol' John Stewart?? 'Nother great songwriter. Em ps I'm just jamming on this..don't nobody quote me, k? pps no disrespect to Ginsberg..much greatness there... but not the Ti Jean/Dylan gypsy-boy charm ===== - ------- "Don't try to build an aeroplane when you just need a kite." Tee ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:41:50 -0400 From: Joseph Palis Subject: Re: Joni and Bob I'm all for this, too. I love Tom Waits but I came in late in the game. I thought _Alice_ is a brilliant album. Its like hearing an ogre sing and in that span of time, Waits sings like no one in this world. Magic comes close. Ani DiFranco is just a flat-out first rate talent. Her first albums mostly acoustic somehow reminded me of Joni in their intensity and magic with words and how to musically make them come to life. Joni is unsurpassed. Well, maybe Rickie Lee Jones and Laura Nyro are the only ones who can hold a candle. I am one of those who just didn't 'get' Bob though. Apologies. Joseph in Chapel Hill (jet-lagged but happy) Quoting SCJoniGuy@aol.com: > Don't know why it always comes down to Joni & Bob...of course they're > both > brilliant, but for my money Tom Waits & Ani Difranco are right up > with them. > > And hey, 3 out of the 4 are still writing! > > Bob > > NP: Andy Partridge, "Don't Let Us Bug Ya" > Joseph S.E. Palis Department of Geography University of North Carolina Saunders Hall, CB 3220 Chapel Hill, N.C. 27599-3220 TEL: 919 962 8901 FAX: 919 962 1537 palis@email.unc.edu joepalis@yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:00:37 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Joni and Bob I think there is room for both (& a few more) at the top... listening to a small sampling of Dylan songs last night by a variety of artists at our sold out tribute to Dylan (proceeds went to keeping music in our local elementary schools) gave me a profoundly deep appreciation of the man's artistry... same as when I hear people doing joni's songs in their own way... learning the song I chose, like learning joni's songs is another way to tap into the genius of the songwriter... several have asked for a report of the show... it's a blur to me as both producer & performer but I can say that all the performers & the audience had the time of their lives... much was said through performing dylan's music that is just so timely... a powerful night... Kate www.katebennett.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:04:40 -0700 From: "Mark or Travis" Subject: Re: Joni and Bob > In regard to differences in their poetry, I would also say Dylan > looks > into himself and speaks from there while Joni is a visionary who > looks out and speaks from a more mystical place. Funny but I see it just the opposite. Joni has always seemed more inwardly focused to me. Not always and certainly less so in the last 20 years or so. And as for Dylan being romantic, I think this is one of the most romantic and aching songs I have ever heard: If you see her, say hello, she might be in Tangier She left here last early spring, is livin' there, I hear Say for me that I'm all right though things get kind of slow She might think that I've forgotten her, don't tell her it isn't so. We had a falling-out, like lovers often will And to think of how she left that night, it still brings me a chill And though our separation, it pierced me to the heart She still lives inside of me, we've never been apart. If you get close to her, kiss her once for me I always have respected her for busting out and gettin' free Oh, whatever makes her happy, I won't stand in the way Though the bitter taste still lingers on from the night I tried to make her stay. I see a lot of people as I make the rounds And I hear her name here and there as I go from town to town And I've never gotten used to it, I've just learned to turn it off Either I'm too sensitive or else I'm gettin' soft. Sundown, yellow moon, I replay the past I know every scene by heart, they all went by so fast If she's passin' back this way, I'm not that hard to find Tell her she can look me up if she's got the time. Mark E. in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:16:25 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: The Beginning of Survival and hi again! **Not been on the list for a while coz I wasn't feeling too good. Hopefully I've not been totally forgotten ;) Not at all, Stephen...matter of fact I made mention of you last month, thanking you for your contribution to the covers project (the Madeline Milla stuff) and wondering where you had gotten to. (Go look up the digest if you think I'm pulling your lariat or if you just want to see it). Anyway, sorry you were sick and damn glad to see you back! **but what does everyone think of the track-listing for "The Beginning Of Survival (please tell me there is an abbreviation for that!)??? TBOS...it has not been warmly received for the most part, Stephen. First & foremost because it's a product without an audience. Joni fans already have this stuff, and non-Joni fans won't care. It's like the proverbial tree in the forest - does it make a noise if no one is listening? Which is not to say that it's all bad; who could argue with great songs like "Magdalene Laundries, Slouching, Beat Of Black Wings & Passion Play (now with a bonus subtitle!). Then you've got the songs that aren't bad songs but suffer from the dated production and superfluous studio gimmickry (Impossible Dreamer, Dog Eat Dog,) but unfortunately the bulk of it is a recap (recrap) of Joni's worstest stuff ever: Reoccurring Dream, No Apologies, The Windfall, Fiction, and so on. For the life of me I can't figure out why this thing exists, especially when all the Geffen stuff just got re-released last year. At least Dancing Clown got left out. The Beginning of Survival? What a pretentious title. The Beginning of Retirement, perhaps. Or maybe "Yard Sale". Or maybe "I Guess Dylan Really IS Better" LOL For someone who didn't want to paint a starry night again, man, she's been on quite a nostalgia binge of late. But then again I guess that recycling is consistent with her social and political content in regards to this collection. The track list, "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" "The Beat of Black Wings" "The Reoccuring Dream" "Impossible Dreamer" "The Windfall (Everything for Nothing)" "No Apologies" "Dog Eat Dog" "Passion Play (The Story of Jesus and Zachius ... The Little Tax Collector)" "The Three Great Stimulants" "Cool Water" "Lakota" "Sex Kills" "Fiction" "Tax Free" "The Magdalene Laundries" "Ethiopia" Bob, swearing not to write about TBOS anymore...again. NP: Andy Partridge "Strawberry Fields Forever" (Dave Gregory actually) PS: I'm not sure why the new subtitle for Passion Play - maybe because not enough people knew the Bible story? And I hope they get Zaccheus' name right on the official product. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #182 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)