From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #170 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, June 18 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 170 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: the beginning of survival ["Ross, Les" ] Re: Beginning of Survival ["Ross, Les" ] Re: Beginning of Survival [Catherine McKay ] Re: Joni Mitchell VS Angry Mexican DJ's [Smurfycopy@aol.com] Why won't Joni release an older live recording? (and offer) [KindTaper@ao] Re: Beginning of Survival [Lori Fye ] Re: Hope, disgust, embarrassment, the future, etc. [Lori Fye ] Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought ["Kate ] Hope, disgust, embarrassment, the future, etc. ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought [Randy] Re-post: Early Joni Video on CBC site [Doug ] RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - again, I say ["Azeem" <] All of this talk about Jonifest now ... and RAFFLE items galore!! [Lori F] Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought [Lori] MG [Darice ] Re: One man's understanding of Joan [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Beginning of Survival ["Steven Polifka" ] SURVIVAL is a good thing [] Joni: no contract obligations, right? [] Re: SURVIVAL is a good thing ["Steven Polifka" ] Re: All of this talk about Jonifest now ... and RAFFLE items galore!! [C] Re: SURVIVAL is a good thing [Catherine McKay ] Mary Grace: Her Memorial Service (very long) [JRMCo1@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:50:28 +0100 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: Re: the beginning of survival I'm not sure what happens to recordings and where company control and ownership of recordings begins and ends, but it has occurred to me that perhaps Joni was confronted with a situation where a compilation was going to be produced whether she liked it or not - to maximise/grind out the last possible cent from her oeuvre. Noting that she is co-producer leads me think that given that the compilation was going to happen anyway, she'd as well get on board to guide it in some meaningful way and to try to give something to her loyal base of interest (the most probable suckers/purchasers) other than songs they most likely already owned. Lets face it, some of the tracks cited as presented in the package are not her most popular/easy to get so it's still a contrarian act and not one to win many/any admirers. So that kinda fits her profile. I'd imagine the 'suits' would have gone for something more accessible - and may yet. So, much as I agree that these re-packagings of her work are at best frustrating for the vast majority of her fans, I can't really buy into her being the instigator of the plan. The moral issues raised here will not be alien to her thinking nor, I believe, has she become desensitised to the stench of hypocrisy. But what do I know, I love Reoccurring Dream. Smoochies Les (Unco - London) Our Discontent is Their Delight They Offer Relief at the Purchase Price ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:22:18 +0100 From: "Ross, Les" Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival Mmm, I'm on digest so I'm behind a bit with this. I think it's fair to say that this new compilation (gads) is meeting with less than unequivocal approbation among the 'admiring classes aspirant' hereabouts. Y'know not so very long ago socio-political issues were so 'right on' when peddled by musicians with access to an audience. Am I picking up a general weariness or intolerance for this now or is that observation in itself rather old? It seems to me that Joni is becoming victim to that syndrome wherein you really have to be unimpeachable and rigourously consistent to have the right to express critical or concerned views in the public arena. There's something of the tall-poppy trauma being visited upon her. Just a thought. It's hard for any of us (and actually I'm really only speaking for myself here) to balance up her vituperative assaults on the music biz, then stand aside in silence/indifference as she appears to get into bed with Geffin (shudder/bleeuch) to re-present certain themed works, polish up the process and give it a sanctity based on genuinely held concerns for societal decay. Though in saying that there comes to mind an expression wherein to get something good to happen sometimes you gotta sup with the devil or something. But my presiding impression about this exercise is that it is damage control as I intimated in my other post. (it's that determined 'benefit-of-the-doubt' moment, Les - however Kate Bennet's post quoting Mike Rogonga is enough to curdle milk..the quote, that is..). I think a better call would have been not to be associated with it at all if the record company were determined to do this thing - though it would have galled her endlessly to 'let it go'. I know it's banal but even the absence of Joni artwork would have set it apart right there! How much better it would have been if she perhaps revisited these (not always successful songs imo) and turned in, say, acoustic performances of them. The San Remo concert acoustic version of Lakota comes to mind as an example of one of her songs which really shows up the damage over-production does to a fine keening song. She'd have gotten across her message and delivered 'new product' to a receptive/starved market. I think it has been written about here in a number of ways over the last few years but Joni is being presented in such a way as to alienate her supporters and admirers. After all, we only get to hear the sound-bite stuff that is super critical and chastening. That's the stuff the media pick up and (where they are interested in Joni at all) really run with it to sell, sell, sell. It's too obviously self serving of the media forms for it to be sinister. Though there's nothing quite like discrediting someone as a personality to neuter the potency of their utterances - I mean that doesn't happen much these days (!!) It's long past the time the woman got into print and presented either one or a sequence of auto-biographies. I don't think anyone would dispute that she's got a story to tell of an interesting time in our history, a singular way of expressing and engaging with her audience and an audience prepared to listen/read. I'm suspicious that all we get to hear is the railing and berating. There's got to be more than that. But then again, perhaps not. Maybe she is just a wingeing git. And my point in all this is, many here on this list are weary of what she seems to be these days. As a result we are quite prepared to condemn her and promptly over this new release. The concensus appears to be that it's unworthy of her and disappointing. And that's because she presents or is presented endlessly as being superior and hard-done-by and determined to elicit our endorsment of that view. But I think that view of her is distorted and for the reasons I've just stated but she's doing nothing about it except associating with this cash-in. But then again, what do I know, I love Dog Eat Dog. Sigh~* Les (Unco - London) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:19:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival - --- "Ross, Les" wrote: > > I think it's fair to say that this new compilation > (gads) is meeting with > less than unequivocal approbation among the > 'admiring classes aspirant' > hereabouts. Y'know not so very long ago > socio-political issues were so > 'right on' when peddled by musicians with access to > an audience. Am I > picking up a general weariness or intolerance for > this now or is that > observation in itself rather old? I like grouchy Joni and grouchy-Joni songs (being a grouch myself - now I don't have to write my own anthems). I don't have any problem with the choices as such - I do have a problem with their releasing yet another recycled CD, hard on the heels of the Geffen package, and containing many of the same songs. If they really are trying to sell to a new audience, it might have made sense NOT to put so much of the same material on this new one - unless they realized the Geffen box was too big and expensive for any "new" audience and it wasn't selling, although you'd think they woulda/shoulda known that before they even released it. > I think a better call would have been not to be > associated with it at all if > the record company were determined to do this thing > - though it would have > galled her endlessly to 'let it go'. I know it's > banal but even the absence > of Joni artwork would have set it apart right there! It seems to me that the Cowboy Junkies' recording company released a "Greatest Hits" compilation - and they told their fans they didn't approve of it, but had no choice, and told them NOT to buy it. Maybe Joni could have done this, if she was against the idea, OR maybe she can't for fear of law suits. (In fact, I can't find wherever it was that the CJs said this - it might have been on their website but if so, I can't find it now, and find their website difficult to navigate; or it may have been taken off at their lawyers' suggestion - but you won't find any Greatest Hits CDs listed on their website either.) > How much better it would have been if she perhaps > revisited these (not > always successful songs imo) and turned in, say, > acoustic performances of > them. The San Remo concert acoustic version of > Lakota comes to mind as an > example of one of her songs which really shows up > the damage over-production > does to a fine keening song. She'd have gotten > across her message and > delivered 'new product' to a receptive/starved > market. This kind of thing is what so many of us would like to see/hear. The previously unreleased stuff, or even the old stuff in a different production. Not another Travelogue though. No orchestra this time. Maybe "Dog eat dog unplugged", jazz "Song to a seagull" or "Acid Blue". ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:27:38 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell VS Angry Mexican DJ's Mr Muller writes: << Who says you can't dance to Joni? >> I didn't know anyone said that, Bob. Last I knew, people on the list were saying that they couldn't do the horizontal hula to Joni's music. - --Smurf "Why don't you write books people can read?" --Nora Joyce ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:30:03 EDT From: KindTaper@aol.com Subject: Why won't Joni release an older live recording? (and offer) What I'd like to know is, with the amount of great bootlegs that are out there, why doesn't Joni go back into her archives and officially release some of those great shows? How many on this list would not buy that Club 47 show from '68 if it got released? Or who wouldn't want a pristine DVD of the pink dress concert? Of course, I'm sure we'd all love to hear something that hadn't seen the light of day before. Any ideas as to why she's never released any of the old shows? Thanks, Wes p.s. Normally Joni from the 90's is not for me, but that Gene Autry Museum show from 1995 is the greatest thing ever! Anyone want a copy? Send me an e-mail with your address! I'll take as many as I can. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:32:00 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival Excellent posts, Les Ross! I'm still reading, but I want to comment on a couple of things. > And my point in all this is, many here on this list are weary of what she > seems to be these days. Very good point. "Seems" is the operative word here. > As a result we are quite prepared to condemn her and promptly over this new > release. "and promptly," yes. Without having even seen the package, the writings, the art. Pretty hasty, I think. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 07:36:49 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Hope, disgust, embarrassment, the future, etc. I wrote: > If Joni continues to release collections similar to the upcoming one, will > people begin to leave the Joni Mitchell Discussion List in disgust? Bryan replied: > Yes, probably. A number of the hard-core fans are already turned off by the > orchestral albums, reissues and now more reissues. I'm not exactly disgusted, > but my "relationship with Joni" (so to speak) is definitely being tested. Ah ... so my question really wasn't from so far in left field! Last night, Bob responded to my concern: > From what I can tell, the biggest mass departures from the JMDL comes when > the talk is all politics, which causes tempers to flare and folks to storm > off. And now Joni has decided, for whatever reasons, to co-produce an album of her songs that are mainly about ... POLITICS! What an amusing irony. Lori, who has been trying quite hard lately to refrain from posting about political things ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 10:44:06 EDT From: KindTaper@aol.com Subject: Gene Autry setlist - vljc This is the show I offered in my last post. It's just Joni solo, and she tells the best stories and the crowd is in her hands. It was surely a magical event. The whole show is amazing, but some highlights of this show are the Cherokee Louise, and the story and buildup preceeding it. The Hejira and Song For Sharon also greatly move me. If you're curious, write me and I'll send it to you and you can see for yourself. Gene Autry Museum, Wells Fargo Theater, LA, CA 1/26/95 Refuge of the Roads Sex Kills Moon at the Window Night Ride Home Love's Cries Yvette in English Cherokee Louise Sunny Sunday Hejira Just Like This Train Face Lift Song For Sharon Take care, Wes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:08:54 -0400 (EDT) From: notaro@stpt.usf.edu Subject: Re: Gene Autry setlist - vljc Jump at this offer, folks. An incredible show. Jerry Quoting KindTaper@aol.com: > This is the show I offered in my last post. It's just Joni solo, and she > > tells the best stories and the crowd is in her hands. It was surely a > magical > event. The whole show is amazing, but some highlights of this show are > the > Cherokee Louise, and the story and buildup preceeding it. The Hejira and > Song For > Sharon also greatly move me. If you're curious, write me and I'll send > it to you > and you can see for yourself. > > Gene Autry Museum, Wells Fargo Theater, LA, CA 1/26/95 > > Refuge of the Roads > Sex Kills > Moon at the Window > Night Ride Home > Love's Cries > Yvette in English > Cherokee Louise > Sunny Sunday > Hejira > Just Like This Train > Face Lift > Song For Sharon > > Take care, > Wes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:32:42 EDT From: LCStanley7@aol.com Subject: Re: Turbulent Indigo EM wrote: thanks Lori, (for everything). Wow that verse you quoted did kick ass a bit. whew.... Em :) Hi EM, Joni's words Lori quoted seem prophetic of what many today are singing about the turbulence we are in right now with the war going on, etc. The whole song (The Sire of Sorrow - Job's Sad Song) pretty much encapsulates my sorrow toward the machine that has traded the fiddle for the drum in so many aspects of life today. Love, Laura NP: Lesson in Survival - - --- Lori Fye wrote: > Em inquired: > > > So what's up with this "Turbulent Indigo"? - I've heard it referred > to > > as genius, or some such glowing thing. Is it among her best? > > Of the 1990s, yes (imo). I generally hail "Night Ride Home" as > better than TI, > but I've probably played TI more. It won two Grammy Awards in 1996: > Best Pop > Album and Best Recording Package. > > This first verse of the last song has been stuck in my head for > YEARS: > > "Let me speak let me spit out my bitterness > Born of grief and nights without sleep and festering flesh > Do you have eyes? > Can you see like mankind sees? > Why have you soured and curdled me? > Oh you tireless watcher! What have I done to you? > That you make everything I dread and everything I fear come true?" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:41:36 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 Lori Fye wrote: > > > Sorry, Lori, but I have a really strong reaction to this statement. > > Fair enough, Azeem, and I'm sorry if I offended you. > > I just believe that we (or maybe just I) should take every opportunity to get > people to listen to the absolutely sensible things that Joni has written about > the ills of this world, and not just what she's written about love and personal > loss. Lori, I don't think Joni has ever been about ONLY love and personal loss. Is there any Joni cd that does NOT include some political statement? It may be personal politics, like Harry's House or The Arrangement, where the message is "carefully consider your choices and how you relate to others in the world" (which is what politics is all about; it's not a matter of which political party a person joins, that's just the way one's values are expressed), or it may be exhortations like The Fiddle and the Drum or The Banquet, which to me is all about the downside of capitalism. (The Banquet was in my head a lot during Reagan's funeral week when I was remembering the damaging effects of his "trickle-down" economic plan.) Now it feels like this topic needs serious (get out the lyrics book) investigation, but I'd rather not. It's less efficient but more enjoyable just to have all those albums playing in my head... so what's the political song on Court and Spark? I've just thought of another one... I've always thought of Rainy Night House as political... > I'm not going to get pissy because she has chosen to do *this* with part > of her Geffen catalog. Well, why the hell not?! Us other pissies, like myself, might have to reconsider your Joni-fanclub membership. > Nonetheless -- and I realize I'm in quite the minority here -- I'm just a little > excited about the new release. I may even buy it for myself! > > We're all entitled to our opinions, and again, sorry if I offended or annoyed > you. Oh, goodness, Lori, you're not offending or annoying at all! I think you've lost your mind, but there's nothing offensive about that. (All said with much affection!) One of the pleasures of this list is the drastically different viewpoint people bring to it, and I admire the enthusiasm you and others have for Joni's latest project. I don't understand it, but it's refreshing and heartfelt and that I CAN and DO appreciate. Debra Shea NPIMH: a jukebox of Joni tunes, random play ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:42:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Susan Guzzi Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival Awww Les I was so seeing your side of the dilemma till you lost all credibility when you said ... "I love Dog Eat Dog." Pfft there it went - LOL! Sorry had to get my "Dog eat Dog is a Dog" comment in there! Ok I am not happy about this project either - I doubt she will increase her fan base - or do herself much good financially from this venture - however I DO see her getting on board to inject whatever oxygen she can into what I see as a comatose project from the get go. I think to gain or expand a fan base - she has to do some new material or do some acoustic versions of her 80's works - with the exceptions of Night Ride Home and Turbulent Indigo - which are in her upper echelon - anything would be an improvement to DED and CMIARS. Maybe there is something redeeming in those two albums. Finally, I don't know why anyone would turn away from Joni - for doing this project - that is and has been a fan and admirer for all this time. Hell I didn't turn away upon the original release of the two mentioned here. In fact when they were released I purchased them and appreciated them at the time - because they were from Joni and it was the excitement and expectation and thanks for having anything new from her. It was as time went on and I noticed I never ever played them, thats when I realized why that was - they arent very good!. So I am saying that even THEY had some worth for a while - as I waited for the master to master her art again. One more thing - I do believe lyrically they do have something to say- but its doubtful with these productions that enough will listen through to hear what's being said. Still predicting Joni will someday - make a comeback and do new material - she will find she can be heard better through words than through her art - at least more widespread ... and financially. And I think she likes that more than she would care to admit! Ok enough for now ... Peace, Susan "Ross, Les" wrote: Mmm, I'm on digest so I'm behind a bit with this. I think it's fair to say that this new compilation (gads) is meeting with less than unequivocal approbation among the 'admiring classes aspirant' hereabouts. Y'know not so very long ago socio-political issues were so 'right on' when peddled by musicians with access to an audience. Am I picking up a general weariness or intolerance for this now or is that observation in itself rather old? It seems to me that Joni is becoming victim to that syndrome wherein you really have to be unimpeachable and rigourously consistent to have the right to express critical or concerned views in the public arena. There's something of the tall-poppy trauma being visited upon her. Just a thought. It's hard for any of us (and actually I'm really only speaking for myself here) to balance up her vituperative assaults on the music biz, then stand aside in silence/indifference as she appears to get into bed with Geffin (shudder/bleeuch) to re-present certain themed works, polish up the process and give it a sanctity based on genuinely held concerns for societal decay. Though in saying that there comes to mind an expression wherein to get something good to happen sometimes you gotta sup with the devil or something. But my presiding impression about this exercise is that it is damage control as I intimated in my other post. (it's that determined 'benefit-of-the-doubt' moment, Les - however Kate Bennet's post quoting Mike Rogonga is enough to curdle milk..the quote, that is..). I think a better call would have been not to be associated with it at all if the record company were determined to do this thing - though it would have galled her endlessly to 'let it go'. I know it's banal but even the absence of Joni artwork would have set it apart right there! How much better it would have been if she perhaps revisited these (not always successful songs imo) and turned in, say, acoustic performances of them. The San Remo concert acoustic version of Lakota comes to mind as an example of one of her songs which really shows up the damage over-production does to a fine keening song. She'd have gotten across her message and delivered 'new product' to a receptive/starved market. I think it has been written about here in a number of ways over the last few years but Joni is being presented in such a way as to alienate her supporters and admirers. After all, we only get to hear the sound-bite stuff that is super critical and chastening. That's the stuff the media pick up and (where they are interested in Joni at all) really run with it to sell, sell, sell. It's too obviously self serving of the media forms for it to be sinister. Though there's nothing quite like discrediting someone as a personality to neuter the potency of their utterances - I mean that doesn't happen much these days (!!) It's long past the time the woman got into print and presented either one or a sequence of auto-biographies. I don't think anyone would dispute that she's got a story to tell of an interesting time in our history, a singular way of expressing and engaging with her audience and an audience prepared to listen/read. I'm suspicious that all we get to hear is the railing and berating. There's got to be more than that. But then again, perhaps not. Maybe she is just a wingeing git. And my point in all this is, many here on this list are weary of what she seems to be these days. As a result we are quite prepared to condemn her and promptly over this new release. The concensus appears to be that it's unworthy of her and disappointing. And that's because she presents or is presented endlessly as being superior and hard-done-by and determined to elicit our endorsment of that view. But I think that view of her is distorted and for the reasons I've just stated but she's doing nothing about it except associating with this cash-in. But then again, what do I know, I love Dog Eat Dog. Sigh~* Les (Unco - London) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:56:52 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought I have to agree with bob- my teen exposure experience tells me they would not be interested in this latest release... my son (early 20's now) who was into bob marley big time, then moved into lots of rap & most recently is into local guy (but world reknown ex surfer) Jack Johnson... my exposure to JJ is that his is mellow music with a cool groove (reggae influence) interspersed with social commentary but not the hit you over the head kind... & if there is any song more relevant today than dylan's 'masters of war' I'd like to know... Kate www.katebennett.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:15:51 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Hope, disgust, embarrassment, the future, etc. >If Joni continues to release collections similar to the upcoming one, will people begin to leave the Joni Mitchell Discussion List in disgust?< is this jc? My answere is not at all, I came here because of joni but I stay here because of ya'll... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:15:43 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Even more Survival stuff BRYAN8847@aol.com wrote: > Well, since Geffen (or Reprise in some cases) holds the production rights to > the recordings, they can release this stuff as many times as they want. Maybe > Joni is just cooperating, hoping for exposure to a new audience. I wish they > would all just move on. > Bryan Master tapes revert to the artist after x years. I think it's ten. Joni may very well own them by now. I think it is extremely unlikely that this project was undertaken without her full cooperation and approval. "Ross, Les" wrote: > Y'know not so very long ago socio-political issues were so > 'right on' when peddled by musicians with access to an audience. Am I > picking up a general weariness or intolerance for this now or is that > observation in itself rather old? I am delighted by music with these kinds of messages, but only when it works for me as a listening experience. These wordy tuneless offerings do not do that for me. "Ross, Les" wrote: > And my point in all this is, many here on this list are weary of what she > seems to be these days. As a result we are quite prepared to condemn her and > promptly over this new release. I think it's a bad move. I am not condemning Joni in any way. Lamenting her own mismanagement of her legacy, yes. As to being judgemental of a release that isn't even out yet, well, we've heard this stuff already. RR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 13:19:49 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought jon-i-van-gel-ist (noun) one who attempts to influence others through the use of the recordings or other works of Joni Mitchell Lori Fye wrote: > So I'll buy a few copies of the new release and make gifts of them. If the > music and lyrics fall upon deaf ears, so be it, but I'm not going to stop > trying. > NPIMH: "We can change the world / Rearrange the world ... " ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:19:53 -0400 From: Doug Subject: Re-post: Early Joni Video on CBC site I'm re-posting this link for newcomers or anyone who missed it the first time. From the CBC show Take 30 May 1 1967, 9 minute video clip. http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-580-3213/life_society/hippies/ Doug ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:09:08 +0100 From: "Azeem" Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - again, I say Lori wrote: <> Rest assured Lori, nothing you said was in any way *offensive* - it was more that it provoked *very* strong disagreement! << I just believe that we (or maybe just I) should take every opportunity to get people to listen to the absolutely sensible things that Joni has written about the ills of this world, and not just what she's written about love and personal loss >> Actually, I don't think much of what Joni says about politics/the ills of the world is *anything* like as profound or meaningful as what she has said about, yes, love and personal loss! Sex Kills or Tax Free or Reoccurring Dream? All old hat. Hejira, Last Time I Saw Richard, Chinese Cafi? NOW we're talking. I'd want to evangelise about the really good stuff, of which there is so damn much. Indeed, I *do* proselytise: I've been known to stand next to people in record shops at the Joni section when they've been eyeing up C&S, or Hejira, or Blue, and push them right over the cliff, doing everything bar walking them to the till and helping them get their wallet out. I would certainly not do that with this new collection, as they might not ever want to buy another Joni album if that's the first collection they hear! *Obviously* this is all "IMHO" but I would nevertheless place a sizeable wager that turning someone onto C&S or Blue would be more likely to create a new Joni fan than pointing them to Survival. The same goes for Travelogue, obviously :-) << I'm not going to get pissy because she has chosen to do *this* with part of her Geffen catalog. >> Good for you for not getting pissy! I would like to approach this project with your equanimity and enthusiasm - but I simply can't. I'm frustrated, regardless of whether it was her idea or Geffen's, although I would support what someone posted earlier about The Cowboy Junkies, whose explicit refusal to endorse a compilation they despised seemed to be the approach that would most retain their integrity. Other acts have done this in the past, including David Bowie and Talk Talk, and I'm sure there are more. As for leaving the list, the thought had never even occurred to me. Azeem in London NP: England v Switzerland - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.698 / Virus Database: 455 - Release Date: 02/06/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:08:49 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: All of this talk about Jonifest now ... and RAFFLE items galore!! Check out this year's Jonifest raffle give-aways: A collection of JMDLrs stories and writings from 2003-2004 3 copies of pre-release mixes Kay Ashley's upcoming CD (set for autumn release) Lots of unreleased Joni CDs 2 copies of the Dec/Jan 2004 Issue of Mountain Astrologer with an article about Joni in it 2 copies of Woman of Heart and Mind DVD 3 full sets of Jonifest 2003 DVD's Turbulent Indigo poster Joni "tarot card" magnet "Architectural Digest" book featuring Joni's house Several limited edition JMDL cookbooks like the one given to Joni in 1999 And you know ... there may be ... MORE!! Be there or we won't sing "You're So Square," cause baby, we DO care!! www.jonifest.com Lori ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:11:16 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought > jon-i-van-gel-ist (noun) > one who attempts to influence others through the use of the > recordings or other works of Joni Mitchell What a great compliment, Randy! Thanks!! : ) Lori, laughing it all away ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 15:54:17 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Darice Subject: MG I am on digest and checking in very infrequently. so this is late, but heartfelt. MG was one of the first JMDLers I met and I am saddened beyond belief at the news, but I must have felt it somehow, as I read the recent digests for the first time in months.... Thank you to whoever posted For A Dancer as I know MG loved Jackson's music as well as Joni's.... what more can you say, but the world is a less kind and less wonderful place without MG. Darice ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:10:03 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: One man's understanding of Joan Good Ms. Goodspeed writes: > Aw, Julius, what a tease. I was looking forward to reading your > understanding of Joni Mitchell. (Is it true you're coming to fest, hm?) Haven't you been reading my pontifications on her oeuvre for the past 8 years, Jen...or have you been deleting me, again? Be careful what you wish for, sweetie, you just might get it! :-) I'm doing my level best to clear the way so I can go to Jonifest, but I still have many rivers to cross. I'm highly hopeful though. I'd love to be there! Thanks for Part 2. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:13:45 -0500 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival For inspiration on all levels, no one has inspired me more consistantly than Joni. Musically and otherwise. At all times, she seems to follow her heart-write in her own blood - to have integrity at all costs. I find it hard to believe she would just 'cash in'. And if she did, so what? I believe that the Complete Geffen Recordings were persued by her to make them available, once again, to the public. She, in her liner notes, writes about 'freeing them from prison'. Can't we take her at her word? So in that light, could it be possible that she wants to make a statement with this new compilation of hers that has nothing to do with shirking her fans- or cashing in? I say YOU GO GIRL! "You've got to shake your fists at lightning now-You've got to roar like forest fire- You've got to spread your light like blazes all across the sky... They're gonna aim the hoses at you- (even your fans...sp) Show them you won't expire- not till you've burned up every passion- not even when you die, c'mon now, you've got to try- If you feel like contempt, then you tell it! If your tired of the silent night- JESUS- well then you yell it!!!" Remember that? Did that verse EVER inspire you to do something that you might not have done? I admire Joni because she is who she is. I say let her be and do what she wants. She's not here to please us (as much as I too, would love to see a glorious boxed set)... Instead of whining, let's do something about it! Maybe we should just ask her! Write your congessmen- er, her management company. Let's get a letter writing campaign going! May be we could inspire HER! ;-) (And yes, I am being a flippant pain in the ass! But there is a lot of heartfelt truth in my words... I mean if you want something, you need to ask for it. Has anyone bothered? Does she even know that so many clamour for this elusive boxed set? Anyone?...) If I could, I'd tell her that I was open to anything she wanted to write/ paint/record. We are listening, Joan. Don't think we aren't... I personally feel you've got a lot of passion left in you, so anytime you want to let it out, we are here, on the JMDL... >>> "Ross, Les" 06/17/04 05:22AM >>> Mmm, I'm on digest so I'm behind a bit with this. snip It seems to me that Joni is becoming victim to that syndrome wherein you really have to be unimpeachable and rigourously consistent to have the right to express critical or concerned views in the public arena. There's something of the tall-poppy trauma being visited upon her. Just a thought. snip Les (Unco - London) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:56:07 -0400 From: Subject: SURVIVAL is a good thing Now that I've dumped on SURVIVAL, I'm looking at it in a positive light. Follow me on this. Here's an artist who has a tremendous back catalog of songs. She gives good interview. Presumably she's gonna do some interviews and when she does, she's gonna talk about current events; she's gonna talk about terrorists; she's gonna talk about politics during a presidential election here in the US. She may have one or two details askew but she is passionate and articulate. How can this be bad for her catalog? Sure, if someone has her entire collection already (as many of us do) it might be the first one we skip. Who cares? There are only 40 ever post. How many completists are there right now? As opinionated as we are, we're not even a speck in the demographic. If she visits David Dye on The World Cafe, if she talks to Rolling Stone, if she visits that public radio station in LA that she loves (which specializes in singer-songwriters- DUH!), only good will come out of this. People who have *nothing* of hers will go to the store and think, >She certainly has a way with words. Let's see, do I want SURVIVAL or do I want 'hits'? Holy crow, I've heard these songs on 'COURT AND SPARK' before. What? She wrote 'Woodstock'?! I guess I'll start with the *NEW* release, SURVIVAL, and come back for 'hits' if it's any good.> Pretty soon, they're forming an opinion on FOR THE ROSES, MINGUS, and DOG EAT DOG. heh heh Would I like to see a "new" release listed in the "Adds" section of the "Radio And Records" newspaper where they show tracks added to radio playlists? You bet. Today, I don't think she's shooting herself in the foot. Not this time. What's the downside to a new collection? The licensing is all done and Lord knows there's a steady stream of artwork. She doesn't have to pay Vince Mendoza; she doesn't have to fly across the Atlantic and risk getting sick; she doesn't have to pay George Martin to rent his room; she doesn't have to pay an orchestra; she doesn't even have to pay Larry, Herbie, and Wayne! She probably put up no money at all. All she has to do is proudly turn in some fresh paintings (which feels good) and do some interviews during an election year (which also doesn't feel too bad). Sample question: "Joni, you've written a bunch of political songs. What do you think of the Administration's handling of Iraq?" This project is Taylor (ham) made for Norma, The Opinionated. I can't believe the conglomerate that owns the Geffen brand would risk red ink with this release. It just wouldn't happen. Unlike what David Geffen told her long ago, I NEVER believed he was losing money on her titles. If Cincinnatis own Over The Rhine can make money on their 2-CD "OHIO", it's just not possible that Reprise/Nonesuch lost money on "TRAVELOGUE" for example. Does anyone think that the major labels pay more for paper, ink, pressing, and distribution than the tiny labels? There's not a chance. It must be profitable for them to get the artist out there in front of the interviewers' microphones. How ironic is this? Decades ago, David Geffen told her repeatedly he was losing money on her. Today, the company with his name on it is now letting her release any collection she damn well pleases! This must be sweet vindication indeed. heh heh Bless her for finding a project that she wants to talk about. Who cares if the industry resembles a smell wasteland? The question she's missed until this release is, "Would you like to use the star-maker-machinery to talk about politics?" Few people have the opportunity and she's not squandering it this year. You go, Joan! SURVIVAL is not meant for us and that is okay. After worrying for decades that she's gonna kill off her back catalog with stuff like this, I think it won't. Maybe there's a lesson in Survival? Nah. Lama PS, Les, thanks for giving me a reason to write every day. You'll never know how important it is. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:11:38 -0400 From: Subject: Joni: no contract obligations, right? The last I heard, TRAVELOGUE was the end of her obligations to a label and it was Reprise. Remember? They chose to release it on the Nonesuch sub-label but that was the end of the line. That's when she said she was finished. As far as I remember, she didn't sign up with Geffen after that. I just don't think she's obligate to anyone right now and yet, she chooses to "keep her hand in" with re-issues like THE COMPLETE GEFFEN RECORDINGS and SURVIVAL. Lest there's any doubt, SURVIVAL means life goes on. "Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck. Hey Larry, pick two! No, two SONGS you nuckle head!" First we had misses. Then we had misses, vol 2 (BOTH SIDES NOW), then misses vol. 3 & 4 (issued together, as TRAVELOGUE). SURVIVAL is misses, vol 5 by my count. Lama PS, My prayer: misses, vol 6 will be the 1969 Carnegie Hall show on DVD. Whoa. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:12:28 -0500 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: Re: SURVIVAL is a good thing >>> 06/17/04 06:56PM >>> SNIP How can this be bad for her catalog? Sure, if someone has her entire collection already (as many of us do) it might be the first one we skip. Snip Well, this leads me to think that she may even be holding off on the elusive boxed set. She may be still pushing her catalogue... Whether I play it or not, I will buy Beginning of Survival. Steve, with that completists blood thing goin' on... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:22:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: All of this talk about Jonifest now ... and RAFFLE items galore!! Please, please, come to Jonifest this year! Join us! Be a pod person! Or be a part of the pod. Or not. (You have a choice.) The Full Moon is a lovely place, very rustic and magical in the beautiful Catskill mountains - full of rocks and streams and things. The staff are all wonderful and friendly, the food is great, the ambience is laid back. It's more like being in someone's home than in a hotel or an inn, or whatever you want to call it. The PEOPLE from this list are wonderful - all of them! It doesn't matter if you're a party animal or a quiet type - everyone is welcome and no one is left out. You can sit on the front porch early in the morning, if you're a morning person (like me - up with the sun, regardless of whether I've been up late the night before) and drink the most amazing coffee ever, let the morning sun warm you, chat quietly with other early morning-ers. Or, if you're the party-all-night type, you can hang out and sing and carry on and not worry about the neighbours calling the cops on you. There's even a pond you can jump into, if the swimming pool isn't your cuppa. If you're thinking of signing up, but just a little shy or nervous about it - cast away those fears and doubts and c'mon along! I've never met a Joni fan I didn't like (yet...) and I, for one, would love to meet more. And if you're worried about cost, there are a whole bunch of options. I do the tenting thing because it's affordable for me (even though I'm not the camping type), but there are rooms to share, or private rooms; rooms in the inn or one of the cottages - lots of choices at different prices. (If you camp, you can hear the stream and it's so calming and peaceful.) And Kay Ashley CDs? That chick can SING! I'd even pay for one of those! - --- Lori Fye wrote: > Check out this year's Jonifest raffle give-aways: > > A collection of JMDLrs stories and writings from > 2003-2004 > 3 copies of pre-release mixes Kay Ashley's upcoming > CD (set for autumn release) > Lots of unreleased Joni CDs > 2 copies of the Dec/Jan 2004 Issue of Mountain > Astrologer with an article about > Joni in it > 2 copies of Woman of Heart and Mind DVD > 3 full sets of Jonifest 2003 DVD's > Turbulent Indigo poster > Joni "tarot card" magnet > "Architectural Digest" book featuring Joni's house > Several limited edition JMDL cookbooks like the one > given to Joni in 1999 > > And you know ... there may be ... MORE!! > > Be there or we won't sing "You're So Square," cause > baby, we DO care!! > > www.jonifest.com > > > Lori > ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 20:32:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: SURVIVAL is a good thing - --- Steven Polifka wrote: > >>> 06/17/04 06:56PM >>> > SNIP > How can this be bad for her catalog? Sure, if > someone has her entire > collection already (as many of us do) it might be > the first one we > skip. > Snip > > Well, this leads me to think that she may even be > holding off on the > elusive boxed set. She may be still pushing her > catalogue... If she waits too long, most of us will be dead. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:39:30 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Mary Grace: Her Memorial Service (very long) I don't think I had gotten a wink of sleep since Saturday, but I slept like a newborn last night. I attended the memorial service for Mary Grace yesterday and found some kind of peace. Now I'm even more certain that she has ascended and is with the Almighty in Paradise. In Dylan terms, she has been released. It's a good thing. Really. [Just a quick aside before I go on: I don't by any means intend to be laying my religion on you, my friends. There's just something about death (and taxes) that brings out that side of me, and I don't really care to suppress it right now. Please endure my terminology, if you can. That's just me. What can I tell you? I'll try to keep it on the low, okay? Okay.] The memorial for MG was beautiful, touching and well-attended. There was nary an empty pew at the Woodland Christian Church where the services were held. Woodland, where MG lives, is a quaint little town just south of Sacramento, CA. Right now I'm looking at the program that I was given at the memorial. On the front there is a luscious-looking painting of a tree, maybe an Oak, and a starry blue sky, done from the point-of-view of someone lying beneath the tree and looking into the heavens at the night. MG's daughter, Signe, 21, painted the scene, if I'm reading the signature correctly. More on Signe a little later on. Inside the program, there is a lovely oval photograph of Mary Grace...looking pretty alluring, I must say. I mean, I'd certainly come hither if she looked at me that way. (But then I remember what Paz told me when I called him as I was making the 2 hour drive up there: "Remember, J, this is a celebration of MG's life...it's not about you." Thanks for the sage advice, Mike. I never get to have any fun. :-) Where was I? Oh, yes...the program. Beneath the beautiful photo of MG, the following was photo-printed from a handwritten original: A time to love With a heart to care A mind to dream With courage to dare A place to settle With room to grow An eye to see With sense to know - - mgv 9/14/75 On the facing page were these simple words: "In loving memory of Mary Grace Kunz. Born January 19, 1959. Entered into Rest June 12, 2004. I found an empty seat on the left about fours pews from the alter, just two rows directly behind where MG's immediate family was seated. Husband Jeff, Signe and son Les, who's about 9, I think. And Jeff's two kids from a previous marriage. I pretty sure MG's other daughter Mary Caitlin was seated there as well, but I didn't get to meet her, so I'm not sure. On the alter there was a beautifully framed smiling photograph of our Mary Grace and a florist's wet-dream of flowers. I didn't get a chance to read the flower cards, but my thinking was that some of them must've been from you all. They were very nice, thank you...for MG. As the service began, Joni's "Blue Motel Room" was piped in, but I didn't cry. Not yet. The pastor made some very touching opening remarks recounting some of the milestones in MG's life. He mentioned her being from New Jersey and introduced Mary Grace's sisters, Nancy and Pat, who were in attendance from Jersey and Vermont, respectively. (More on the sisters in a sec, too.) He mentioned that MG was a Joni fanatic and a charter member of the JMDL, at which time my chest swelled with pride beneath my "Joni Mitchell Internet Community" denim shirt, the one with the embroidered white dove on it, which I had worn for the occasion. The pastor also mentioned that June 21st is MG and Jeff's wedding anniversary, but I didn't cry. I just made a mental note to be sure and send Jeff a card or something. The man is about as nice a guy as you'd ever hope to meet. Jeff went to the altar and made his heartfelt remarks on his love for Mary Grace. He was eloquent and strong and exuded passion for her. There came a point in the service where the pastor asked if anyone wanted to speak before the congregation in remembrance of MG. There was silence, except for the muffled sobs of grief. Finally, I stood up. I had to say something, I felt, on behalf of the JMDL. I had assured so many people...Les, Kakki, Paz, Kate, Lieve, Rose, Alison, Ashara and many others that I would be carrying their sympathies for MG and her family in my heart...right next to my own. So I found the courage. I said something to the effect that I wasn't much of a public speaker, even under the best of circumstances. I told of how impassioned MG was about her children and husband. I said that we, the JMDL, love MG with all our hearts. I said her sense of humor was infectious. I said that I felt fortunate to have spent the quality time with MG that I did. I said that I felt that Mary Grace was an angel here on Earth and that she remained an angel now, but just on a higher plane. I looked around and people were nodding, "yes indeed." I sat down and cried at that point, big-time. And I didn't have a shred of tissue on me. Now, that JMDL denim shirt is badly in need of washing...and I'd better pre-soak the sleeves. :-) A few others made their loving remarks, including MG's best friend Janelle, who was effusive about the level of support MG had gotten from Jmdlers all over the world, and how much the List had meant to MG. I found out after the service that Jmdler gene mock, who mostly lurks now, was at the service as well. (Hello, Gene!) After the closing prayer, everyone filed out to the soothing sounds of Joni's "Refuge of the Road." Nice selection, I thought. Many people, including myself, adjourned to MG's house, just down the road a piece, for a get-together in MG's honor. I had brought my guitar, which Paz so kindly provided me with (Thank you, Mikey! Check's in the mail, almost). I had learned to play a couple of songs, albeit amateurishly. I figured, hey, we're Joni-people! There must be live music! I had learned Paul Simon's "April Come She Will" and Taupin's "Candle in the Wind" and was ready to rock steady in memory of MG. But as I was doing mental rehearsal in the car on my way up, MG's voice came to me, as clearly as if she was sitting on my passenger side. She was saying, "Geez, Jules, go easy on the cheese, will ya?" I laughed to myself, but at that moment I decided to eschew "Candle...," out of respect. :-) As it turns out, MG's brother-in-law from Vermont is something of a bluesman and I got a free lesson out under the gazebo in MG's back yard. See? Told you there's a God...they didn't have to hear me play that much! How merciful She is! One of the last projects Mary Grace undertook was to create a garden in her back yard, which she wouldn't let husband Jeff see till it was finished. I spent a little time back there just meditating. It was MG to a "T." There are all manner of flowers planted there and various adornments. On a bamboo pole I noticed a few strings of red and green glass beads twirling in the breeze. I got it right away....Marcie! Marcie in a coat of flowers Stops inside a candy store Reds are sweet and greens are sour Still no letter at her door So she'll wash her flower curtains Hang them in the wind to dry Dust her tables with his shirt and Wave another day goodbye Marcie's faucet needs a plumber Marcie's sorrow needs a man Red is autumn green is summer Greens are turning in the sand All along the ocean beaches Stares up empty at the sky Marcie buys a bag of peaches Stops a postman stopping by And summer goes Falls to the sidewalk like string and brown paper Winter blows Up from the river there's no one to take her To the sea etc.... I asked Jeff if it would be okay for me to come and plant some crocuses there, when the time is right, so the kids would have them to bring to school on some tomorrow. He said that it would be okay. MG might've already taken care of that though...we'll know soon enough. MG's daughter, Signe, is so kind, so sweet, so gentle...just like her Mom. I just wanted to hug her, and so I did. She's pretty darn intelligent, too. Like her Mom, again. She's going to be attending the University of California at Berkeley next year...just across the Bay from where I live, so I'm going to try to be there for her, if she needs anything. Les, MG's son, told me he's a bass player. I thought of Jaco and how he had died leaving his twin sons (one whose name is "Julius") behind to be raised by Jaco's widow, Ingrid, who I got to be friends with after Wally Breeze interviewed her for JoniMitchell.com. Those boys are fine, and I pray Les will be too. He'll be staying with Jeff and they will continue as a family. MG's sisters, Pat and Nancy, are just delightful people. I got along with them famously right off the bat. Nancy was telling me about her kids, one of which is 27-years-old. I was all: "Wait, no way you're old enough to have a child that age. You look marvelous!" And Pat said, "Yeah, isn't she beautiful? I said that she was. That she most certainly was. And I guess I got a bit mesmerized looking at Nancy, because, well, she is quite pretty, and she reminded me so darn much of MG. Pretty soon I felt a tap on my shoulder...it was sister Pat, saying in her Jersey-girl drawl : "Hey! What am I, chopped liva?!" We all laughed hard at that one. Clearly, the MG humorist gene is alive and well in her wacky sister. They're both sweethearts though, MG's sisters. Pat's husband was saying that Pat was a singer and I jokingly insisted she sing with me, but she ran off into the house screaming "Noooooooo!" So I let her off the hook. I caught up with Pat later though. I had to ask her about MG's Taylor Ham obsession. I wanted to know if that pork was as good as all that. Pat blanched, saying she, Pat that is, couldn't stand the stuff. She called it "sub-Spam." I almost sprayed here with the Sprite I had been trying to swallow before she made me convulse with laughter. So funny, that one. Pretty soon it was time for me to head home. I packed up my guitar and headed into the house to say my good-byes to people who were inside, as I had already hugged Jeff and said good-bye to him in the back yard. I saw Pat in the kitchen and went to hug her good-bye. She saw me coming and broke out with it: "What you want/baby I got it! (and I went "Hoo!) "What you need?!/You know I got it" (and I went "hoo! in all the right places, then I went "re, re, re, re...."). And we actually danced a little bit, right there in the kitchen, in front of all the grieving relatives and whatnot. I'm just positive MG would've love that! Pat walked me out to my car and I hugged her good-bye...all the while saying how much, I, we, all love MG. She said, "I can see that, Julius. Tell the JMDL thank you so much for us. We'll be in touch." And so it goes. I'll be keeping Mary Grace in my heart forever. - -Julius Shadows are falling, and I'm running out of breath Keep me in your heart for a while If I leave you it doesn't mean I love you any less Keep me in your heart for a while When you get up in the morning, and you see that crazy sun Keep me in your heart for a while There's a train leaving nightly, called when all is said and done Keep me in your heart for a while Sha-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lo Keep me in your heart for a while Sha-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lo Keep me in your heart for a while Sometimes when you're doing simple things around the house Maybe you'll think of me and smile You know I'm tied to you like the buttons on your blouse Keep me in your heart for a while Hold me in your thoughts Take me to your dreams Touch me as I fall into view When the winter comes keep the fires lit And I will be right next you Engine drivers headed north to pleasant street Keep me in your heart for a while These wheels keep turning but they're running out of steam Keep me in your heart for a while Sha-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lo Keep me in your heart for a while Sha-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-lo Keep me in your heart for a while Keep me in your heart for a while -Warren Zevon ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #170 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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