From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #168 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, June 16 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 168 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 ["hell" ] RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 [Catherine McKay ] Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 [Em ] RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 [Lori Fye ] RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 [Lori Fye ] Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 [dsk ] RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 [Lori Fye ] re: The Beginning of Survival ["Steven Polifka" ] Turbulent Indigo [Lori Fye ] Re: Sonic Youth interview w/ Joni mention [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Turbulent Indigo [Em ] Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought [SCJoni] RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - again, I say ["Azeem" <] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:10:18 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 Grumpy Les wrote: > Does this release frighten anyone besides me? I hate to think > that Joni has > resorted to the "let's repackage my old material in a zillion > ways" phase of > her career. Will this end up like The Who's old material has? > "Let's see, > which of these 17 greatest hits packages shall I buy?..." > > I think it's sad that she's once again in a "political mood" but the only > new idea she can cast upon it is a few liner notes. I agree that repackaging her existing work is less than pleasing to those of us who are dying to hear new work. I would LOVE some new songs on these themes. But I suspect her muse is directing her towards painting these days - especially given that a couple of the descriptions of this release have mentioned a dozen or so new paintings on the given themes. It seems to me she's still being inspired to create, but it's being expressed with a paintbrush as opposed to a guitar or piano. Personally, I would LOVE a coffee table-style book of paintings (similar to the Mendel book), with her thoughts on each piece. It would be FAR more appealing than a CD of existing work - with a tiny CD insert or booklet which won't do any justice to the paintings anyway! I would think a book like that would sell very well - perhaps better than a CD, since those of us that already have the music are far less likely to shell out for this, but I suspect a lot of us would pay for a book of paintings and/or sketches? I wonder if Joni has given this any thought? Anyone else care to comment? Hell ____________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too" - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a whole new experience! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 07:16:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - --- hell wrote: > But I suspect her muse is directing her towards > painting these days - > especially given that a couple of the descriptions > of this release have > mentioned a dozen or so new paintings on the given > themes. > > It seems to me she's still being inspired to create, > but it's being > expressed with a paintbrush as opposed to a guitar > or piano. Personally, I > would LOVE a coffee table-style book of paintings > (similar to the Mendel > book), with her thoughts on each piece. I'm wondering if the CD is an excuse to get her paintings out there. There is mention of ten new paintings in the package with this CD (a booklet, I presume). Still, it seems silly, to do another compilation CD so soon after the Geffen set (which I didn't buy, nor do I intend to any time soon), and that contains... mostly Geffen material. Is she bound by contract to produce one every so many years? Is she trying to catch up with that and get it over with? Is she trying to commit musical suicide? Is she having a good laugh on someone? I would sooner see the art book myself. I'd buy it Maybe they could produce frameable prints. I am completely not interested in this "new" CD and thought the whole thing was just a rumour at first. Apparently not. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 07:31:03 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 > I am completely not interested in this "new" CD and > thought the whole thing was just a rumour at first. > Apparently not. To me, it's more embarrassing than frightening. One of the nice things about being a Joni fan is her integrity as an artist, but with these Geffen releases that integrity is fading fast. I think (despite what she says) she still wants the spotlight & recognition, and not having any new product she's going back and pushing stuff that perhaps in her mind was not given its due. Wasn't all the Geffen stuff "remastered" in that box set? That's certainly not a selling point. Why not just call this fiasco "Misses, Volume 2"? Take, for instance..."The Reoccurring Dream", one of the five worst songs she's ever done...this is the FOURTH time she's put it out there, if I'm not mistaken. Besides being an awful song musically, It's hypocrisy of the highest order - I don't need a multimillionaire telling me that money & consumerism is bad, and shame on her for using the word "gap" in the opening line, then turning around and being a shill for The Gap stores, one of the worst symbols of conspicuous consumption in America. That's just one of the reasons why I despise this new release with every fiber of my being - It seems to go against everything that I felt Joni stood for, and watching her turn into the Nora Desmond of pop is, as Les said, frightening. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:16:30 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 Bob writes: << watching her turn into the Nora Desmond of pop is, as Les said, frightening >> "'Comeback'! I hate that word. It's a return!" --Norma Desmond - --Smurf "Musicians don't retire; they stop when there's no more music in them." --Louis Armstrong ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:30:49 +0100 From: "Azeem" Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 Bob, right on the money, wrote: << Wasn't all the Geffen stuff "remastered" in that box set? That's certainly not a selling point. Why not just call this fiasco "Misses, Volume 2"? Take, for instance..."The Reoccurring Dream", one of the five worst songs she's ever done...this is the FOURTH time she's put it out there, if I'm not mistaken. Besides being an awful song musically, It's hypocrisy of the highest order - I don't need a multimillionaire telling me that money & consumerism is bad, and shame on her for using the word "gap" in the opening line, then turning around and being a shill for The Gap stores, one of the worst symbols of conspicuous consumption in America. >> I can't agree more! The Reoccurring Dream is, as far as I'm concerned, irredeemable rubbish - and how many Joni songs can be thus described? Nobody's copybook is spotless, but why shove this dreck in our faces yet again?? Why remind us? We don't like this song Joni, we never have and we never will! << That's just one of the reasons why I despise this new release with every fiber of my being - It seems to go against everything that I felt Joni stood for, and watching her turn into the Nora Desmond of pop is, as Les said, frightening. >> This is (yet) another misguided step on her ever more faltering career. It won't sell either. I just don't get it. Of course Joni isn't the only artiste engaged in tempting the faithful into money/old rope transactions. David Bowie's 1974 masterpiece Diamond Dogs is about to be re-released for at least the fourth time. There was the first CD on RCA, in the early days of CD. Then there was the "proper" CD reissue on Ryko, remastered and with good bonus material - - that was definitely worth the money. Then a few years later it was released yet again in some snazzy 16-bit sound or some such (beyond the discerning powers of most listeners, according to our own Martin Giles) - - and WITHOUT the bonus tracks! You could really stretch out and justify that for true audiophiles with expensive hi-fi equipment who didn't care about extra songs - but it would be a *big* stretch. Now it's being re-released in a "30th Anniversary" version - with the same bonus tracks as on the Ryko version!! Somebody is, 'ow we say 'ere, taking zee peess... Azeem in London NP: Virginia Astley - All Shall Be Well - Quintessentially English, the perfect accompaniment to a summer's day. And My Smallest Friend is one of the most beautiful odes to a child I've ever heard. - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.698 / Virus Database: 455 - Release Date: 02/06/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:52:51 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 Muller writes: << It's hypocrisy of the highest order - I don't need a multimillionaire telling me that money & consumerism is bad >> "Imagine" used to drive me nuts for this very reason. "Imagine no possessions? I wonder if *you* can, John!" But I have mellowed like a old goat cheese, Bob, and you may too as you get to be my age. And I like "Reoccurring Dream" a little bit. Not Joni at her best by any means but I appreciate that, like a visual artist trying new things, Joni experiments with a sort of collage-y sound style. Overall, this song is far less preachy than some of her work, in my opinion. Plus I love the line, "Life would be so easy if I had that new appliance!" - --Smurf "Why don't you write books people can read?" --Nora Joyce ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 07:04:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 Hey, business is business, and I'm not going to lament her current "creative" choices. I'm not gonna buy the damn thing either, but it's her career. Actually, I think it's a nice idea - highlighting her political and social commentary. It's just too bad we're limited to Geffen recordings. I am however disappointed that the title of the CD is taken from the very lovely, but falsely attributed "Chief Seattle" letter - and that the letter is being printed in the artwork. I know most people believe he gave the speech - is it wrong that I expect more from critical eye/mind? Why is it even attached to this compilation at all? I also wouldn't go around bragging about 2nd-generation Italian-American Iron Eyes Cody singing on "Lakota", but hey, that's just me. : ) Jenny SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > I am completely not interested in this "new" CD and > thought the whole thing was just a rumour at first. > Apparently not. To me, it's more embarrassing than frightening. One of the nice things about being a Joni fan is her integrity as an artist, but with these Geffen releases that integrity is fading fast. I think (despite what she says) she still wants the spotlight & recognition, and not having any new product she's going back and pushing stuff that perhaps in her mind was not given its due. Wasn't all the Geffen stuff "remastered" in that box set? That's certainly not a selling point. Why not just call this fiasco "Misses, Volume 2"? Take, for instance..."The Reoccurring Dream", one of the five worst songs she's ever done...this is the FOURTH time she's put it out there, if I'm not mistaken. Besides being an awful song musically, It's hypocrisy of the highest order - I don't need a multimillionaire telling me that money & consumerism is bad, and shame on her for using the word "gap" in the opening line, then turning around and being a shill for The Gap stores, one of the worst symbols of conspicuous consumption in America. That's just one of the reasons why I despise this new release with every fiber of my being - It seems to go against everything that I felt Joni stood for, and watching her turn into the Nora Desmond of pop is, as Les said, frightening. Bob Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:06:21 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: It's clouds' illusions I recall http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/columnstoryS0614ROBERTHUGHES.htm (A Florida Today article headlined "It's clouds' illusions I recall," by Robert Hughes.) - --Smurf "Why don't you write books people can read?" --Nora Joyce ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 07:07:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: One man's understanding of Joan Aw, Julius, what a tease. I was looking forward to reading your understanding of Joni Mitchell. (Is it true you're coming to fest, hm?) Here's part 2: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/UTKFIXD9IGAG/ref=cm_aya_av.sylt_sylt/102-8436841-9184946 JRMCo1@aol.com wrote: Not mine, mind you. I couldn't find Joni's new CD on Amazon yet. But the essay that came up when I searched for her, at the link below, made me go "hmm," somewhat. Thought I'd pass it on. Are you out there, Michael Logan? If so, where's Part 2, please? - -Julius So you'd like to... Understand the Music of Joni Mitchell (Part 1) A guide by Michael Logan, Avid Listener http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/guides/guide-display/-/VWYD2O38PD24/qid=1 087363230/sr=18 1/ref=sr_18_1/002-6817292-2764802 New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:25:14 -0500 From: "Music Is Special" Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 i agree with Les- actually this release makes me think she was serious about not doing any more records. it could also be a contractual thing with Geffen. Who knows. Eric - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Les Irvin" Reply-To: "Les Irvin" To: Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:41:52 -0600 > THE BEGINNING OF SURVIVAL features tracks from DOG EAT DOG > (1985), CHALK MARK IN A RAINSTORM (1988), NIGHT RIDE HOME > (1991), TURBULENT INDIGO (1994) and TAMING THE TIGER (1998). Does this release frighten anyone besides me? I hate to think that Joni has resorted to the "let's repackage my old material in a zillion ways" phase of her career. Will this end up like The Who's old material has? "Let's see, which of these 17 greatest hits packages shall I buy?..." I think it's sad that she's once again in a "political mood" but the only new idea she can cast upon it is a few liner notes. Les... grumpy, I guess. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:30:29 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: Sonic Youth interview w/ Joni mention from interview by Jeff Clark in Stomp and Stammer Jun04 "I literally can't get enough of Joni Mitchell!" Ranaldo raves. "I've been bugging Todd [ owner of Athens record store and long time friend] for whatever tapes he can find of her brilliant early period. And he's been coming through with some really good stuff. You know, the funny thing is, it seems majorly incongruous at first, but she was one of the first really popular artists- that wasn't like an old blues guy or something like that- that was experimenting pretty radically with open tuned guitars, and she did a lot of really, really interesting stuff with that. I love what she does with the guitar, it's totally inspiring to me...and the Grateful Dead were something that really interested me in the 70's when I was much younger, and I've kind of been away from them for a long time, but recently Thurston and I have been reading this one bio in particular about them called A Long Strange Trip by this guy Dennis McNally, who's a really good writer, and a cohort of their's, and it prompted me to go back and listen to a lot of their records, especially their earlier records, and some of the great live albums they've done." Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:38:07 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 Jenny writes: << I am however disappointed that the title of the CD is taken from the very lovely, but falsely attributed "Chief Seattle" letter - and that the letter is being printed in the artwork. I know most people believe he gave the speech - - is it wrong that I expect more from critical eye/mind? >> Maybe he DID write it, and the story that he didn't is the urban legend. I find it very odd that if this letter truly was written by a '70s screenwriter, someone doesn't have it copyrighted for use on posters, in CD packaging, etc. So much for Joni's street cred (path cred?) among Native Americans! - --Smurf, trying to think of more songs like "Reoccurring Dream" and "Imagine" - -- songs in which rich performers preach non-materialism. Does "Pleasant Valley Sunday" by The Monkees count? They never got very rich, though . . . Surely Dylan must have some. (I just had a little Dylan scene in my head . . . DYLAN: Stop calling me Shirley!) "Why don't you write books people can read?" --Nora Joyce ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:10:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 Smurfycopy@aol.com wrote: Maybe he DID write it, and the story that he didn't is the urban legend. I find it very odd that if this letter truly was written by a '70s screenwriter, someone doesn't have it copyrighted for use on posters, in CD packaging, etc. me now: Hi, Bob - I had that same thought. Here's 1991 Seattle Times article on the subject - and you can decide for yourself. : ) http://nativenet.uthscsa.edu/archive/nl/9203/0036.html Jenny Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:27:31 +0000 From: "c Karma" Subject: re: The Beginning of Survival Les wrote: "Does this release frighten anyone besides me? I hate to think that Joni has resorted to the "let's repackage my old material in a zillion ways" phase of her career. Will this end up like The Who's old material has? "Let's see, which of these 17 greatest hits packages shall I buy?..." "I think it's sad that she's once again in a "political mood" but the only new idea she can cast upon it is a few liner notes. " Ouch! Yeah, I too think it's sad that current world conditions prompt Joni into a "political mood" but I also think you'd have to be an ostrich to avoid one completely. This one man's opinion is that few works have so much to say as succinctly as does this collection of songs. Too many people paid no mind to them the first time around and unfortunately, their relevance has not been lost. Perhaps that's the real reason the classics never go out of style. I think "The Beginning of Survival" may be the best public service announcement that the popular music industry has given us since Live Aid. No, it won't provide money to pay for hunger relief but if it prompts some people to review their ideologies, it may do good in many other ways. CC _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up  now 3 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:33:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - --- Smurfycopy@aol.com wrote: > --Smurf, trying to think of more songs like "Reoccurring Dream" and > "Imagine" > -- songs in which rich performers preach non-materialism. Does > "Pleasant > Valley Sunday" by The Monkees count? They never got very rich, though > . . . Surely > Dylan must have some. (I just had a little Dylan scene in my head . . > . > DYLAN: Stop calling me Shirley!) I think Dylan's songs like that were early enough in his career that he was not yet very wealthy. "Hattie Carroll" comes to mind. I don't think of him as "preachy". Even during that wierd-ass Christian period of his, I feel he wasn't telling others how to live. Anybody feel otherwise? Em ===== .............. "I'm a wheel I'm a wheel, I can roll I can feel, and you can't stop me turning. I'm the sun I'm the sun I can move I can run, but you'll never stop me burning." ...rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:49:09 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 > I think it's sad that she's once again in a "political mood" but the only > new idea she can cast upon it is a few liner notes. > > Les... grumpy, I guess. I think it's funny as hell that so many will have to *suffer* what appears to be quite a few selections from Dog Eat Dog!! I'm happy that Joni is in a political mood, and who knows? Maybe this will inspire her to write some new political songs, which are always welcome in my book. Lori, a DED-head ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:53:51 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought This seems like a great opportunity to turn younger people on to Joni, particularly those who are worried about where our world is heading ... I say, buy the new release and give it to every concerned teen and 20-something you know (and don't stop there -- give it to those who AREN'T concerned, too). Look at it as a chance for Joni's music to REALLY make a difference. Lori, feeling idealistic ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:01:38 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - again, I say Azeem opined: > It won't sell either. I just don't get it. I reiterate: it will sell if we buy it and give it to every kid we know. Why else are we here, anyway, if not to help Joni get her message out? Lori, on a mission now ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:04:33 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 Les> Does this release frighten anyone besides me? I'm with you les... & the following grandiose pomposity from the project coordinator made me cringe with embarrassment... I can only hope he made that stuff up without joni's involvement... this is as far from art or consciousness raising as it gets... sorry but I'm disgusted... >Project coordinator Mike Ragogna tells ICE "Joni feels this is her most important collection. The 16 songs are sequenced thematically; she lays out warning signs about what's happening in politics, religion, ecology. She's saying "its time to take a look" trying to raise the consciousness of people to deal with issues like these. And she's suggesting a place to start."< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:38:13 -0700 From: "Victor Johnson" Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - again, I say > Why > else are we here, anyway, if not to help Joni get her message out? > > Lori, > on a mission now Do you mean why are we here on earth or why are we here on this list? I have an answer for neither. Joni's not the only one with socially relevant songs. Bob Marley has many and he is not releasing new packages of his old songs. Of course he is dead. I'm more interested in hearing new music and will be really interested in what India Arie does next- I thought her last album contained many messages relevant to today. I haven't seen her in WFM lately so perhaps she's busy in the studio. Victor Victor Johnson New cd "Parsonage Lane" available now Produced by Chris Rosser at Hollow Reed Studios, Asheville http://www.waytobluemusic.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:59:54 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought Take it from a teacher. The last thing teens today want is anyone preaching to them. Jerry > This seems like a great opportunity to turn younger people on to Joni, > particularly those who are worried about where our world is heading ... > > I say, buy the new release and give it to every concerned teen and > 20-something > you know (and don't stop there -- give it to those who AREN'T concerned, too). > > Look at it as a chance for Joni's music to REALLY make a difference. > > Lori, > feeling idealistic ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:05:05 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought > Take it from a teacher. The last thing teens today want is anyone preaching > to them. Fair enough, Jerry, but I'm hoping it wouldn't be taken as "preaching." What if, just what if, some teens hear this collection and think to themselves, "Wow! Someone understands my worries!" Call me naive, but I think it's possible. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:14:47 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - again, I say Victor asked: > Do you mean why are we here on earth or why are we here on this list? Here on this list. > Joni's not the only one with socially relevant songs. I realize that, Victor. > Bob Marley has many and he is not releasing new packages of his old songs. > Of course he is dead. True, true, and true. However, reggae isn't for everyone. Neither is Joni's music, of course. But you know, if this release is not about fulfilling a contractual obligation (and even if it is), we know that Joni has a high enough opinion of herself to believe her songs are as relevant today as they were when she wrote them. There seems to be a purpose to this release. I would liked to have seen the inclusion of non-Geffen material, too, though. "Woodstock" would be an obvious choice, but for some reason "The Arrangement" is the first that comes to mind. > I'm more interested in hearing new music and will be really interested in > what India Arie does next- I thought her last album contained many messages > relevant to today. This is one of my pet peeves ... we (on this list) can't seem to accept the idea that Joni may choose to never release a new song again. I'm guilty of this too, but I am also happy that she's revisiting her work and trying to do SOMETHING *new* with it. This collection is thematic, and the theme deserves some attention, imo -- most especially from Joni's *most loyal* fans. (That would be us, yes?) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:22:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 perhaps it was Mama and Betsy's idea.... :P Em - --- Lori Fye wrote: > > I think it's sad that she's once again in a "political mood" but > the only > > new idea she can cast upon it is a few liner notes. > > > > Les... grumpy, I guess. > > I think it's funny as hell that so many will have to *suffer* what > appears to be > quite a few selections from Dog Eat Dog!! > > I'm happy that Joni is in a political mood, and who knows? Maybe > this will > inspire her to write some new political songs, which are always > welcome in my > book. > > Lori, > a DED-head > ===== .............. "I'm a wheel I'm a wheel, I can roll I can feel, and you can't stop me turning. I'm the sun I'm the sun I can move I can run, but you'll never stop me burning." ...rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:21:42 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 > perhaps it was Mama and Betsy's idea.... Could be, Em! Afterall, they did tell Joni: "Find yourself a charity Help the needy and the crippled or put some time into Ecology" It's easy for me to view this collection that way. : ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:21:07 -0700 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought I just don't think that giving Joni's weakest material to anyone is going to win her new fans. And like the boy who cried wolf, she is probably wearing out her press cred too, every time she releases some repackaged lesser material. Of course that is my opinion, others may think it is her best stuff. I think they are really missing the boat by not putting out a fat box set. By the time they do, her original fans will all be dead. They could easily put a code on the CDs that opens up online versions of these "Survival" songs as a bonus, if she wants people to hear them so badly. Liz Phair did that on her last CD, to share some of her less commercial material. I don't think this CD will sell well. A box set, on the other hand, would get her mention in every publication in the world, and probably sell respectably, as well as being a valuable add to her catalog. Call me, Joni, we need to talk...... RR Lori Fye wrote: > This seems like a great opportunity to turn younger people on to Joni, > particularly those who are worried about where our world is heading ... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 12:27:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Brei Gross Subject: On this sad day, a prayer O G-d, full of compassion, Thou who dwellest on high. Grant perfect rest beneath the sheltering wings of Thy presence, among the holy and pure who shine as the brightness of the firmament unto the soul of Mary Grace who has gone unto eternity. Lord of mercy, bring her under the cover of thy wings, and let her soul be bound up in the bond of eternal life. Be Thou her possession, and may her repose be peace. Amen. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:05:16 -0400 From: dsk Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > > To me, it's more embarrassing than frightening. One of the nice > things about being a Joni fan is her integrity as an artist, > but with these Geffen releases that integrity is fading fast. I agree, and really don't understand why Joni's doing this. It goes against everything she's stood for. I've stuck with Joni for decades because she forged ahead, took chances, observed the times and made honest art out of what she experienced. Even those (pompous self-indulgent IMO) orchestra cds could be seen as her "stretching." Joni's losing me with this one. All the talk about her integrity and the care taken with each cd, and now she's offering up what I think of as the "Crabby Joni" collection. Has Joni never heard of cd burners? If I wanted a compilation of Joni at her worst, most strident, preachy political self, I'd make one on my handy little burner. (Do we really need a re-release of Sex Kills? Enough already with that.) Adding in the fake Chief Seattle message and her cliche-filled poorly done paintings makes it even worse. (She could easily get art shows based on her celebrity so if this release is her way of getting her paintings into the world... that doesn't make any sense to me either.) When I think of the hatbox debacle, and how I felt then that she was taking advantage of her fans (and I had never felt that before), and then I still bought her orchestra tripe, and now this... I'm going to just step back and appreciate all she's done up to now, and ignore this corruption. If Joni doesn't have any more music in her, then I wish she'd take her integrity and energy and move on to some other creative form. Where's that autobiography that was mentioned years ago? Or, if she's in the "let's look over my career" compiling mood, where's the box set? I'd pay a lot for that. And would even enjoy looking at whatever artwork she included. Just out of curiosity, who does Joni (or whoever came up with this idea) expect will buy this Survival cd? Over the years, I've given many of her cds to people as gifts, with a little proselytizing thrown in, and would never ever give this to anyone as an example of her creative genius. Debra Shea, another grumpy joni fan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:30:26 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought Randy wrote: > I just don't think that giving Joni's weakest material to anyone is going to > win her new fans. "Weakest material" is subjective, of course. Lori, STILL a DED-head ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:34:32 -0600 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 > Joni's losing me with this one. All the talk about her > integrity and the care taken with each cd, and now she's > offering up what I think of as the "Crabby Joni" collection. Maybe this has already been discussed but the last two "reissues" have been exclusively the Geffen era. This leads me to believe that Geffen is initiating these releases (obviously) to recycle material they own that underproduced for them the first time. If this is the case, how on earth are they getting Joni to co-operate and write new liner notes and such? Seems in direct contradiction to her anti-music biz stance. Go figure. Les ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:36:34 EDT From: KindTaper@aol.com Subject: My Joni Favorites (long) Lori asked Wes (Kindtaper): <> Oddly enough, I discovered Joni through a book called "Listen to This - Leading Musicians Recommend Their Favorite Artists and Recordings" -- by Alan Reder and John Baxter. The book is a set of interviews with a diverse selection of musicians on who their favorite artists and what their favorite records are. As I am one who is very open to others' opinions when it comes to most anything and certainly music, I checked out the lists of several musicians I was heavily interested in at the time, including Georgia Hubley of Yo La Tengo, Ben Folds of Ben Folds Five, and Ani DiFranco. All of them listed Joni as a major influence; Court and Spark and Blue being among favorites listed. I bought Court and Spark on vinyl (I was just getting into records at the time), and from the start of side one, I knew Joni would be special. I then heard the first few bars of "Help Me" and immediately recognized a song I had heard and enjoyed throughout my life, but never knew who it was. I simultaneously smiled and melted inside when I heard the harmony as she sings "Help Me" at the beginning of the song. I was hooked. I loved Court and Spark for a while, then I moved onto "Blue." It's not often that I hear something for the first time and love it immediately, but such was not the case with "All I Want." I played the album over and over, and in the beginning, I only liked a few songs, including Carey, My Old Man and All I Want. But after seeing my uncle that year at Christmas, I reminded him of the time he offered to buy me a Joni album when I was on a trip with him around age 16 (I politely declined at the time, and even though I look back now and think of how foolish that decision was, I can honestly say that her beautiful voice and ability to express her feelings would have been wasted on me at that time in my life. It has only been through pain, life experience and many blessings that I have come to appreciate the extraordinary music that she has created.) and I told him how I had come to love "Blue" and "Court and Spark." He told me how much he loved "Little Green," so I went back and listened to the words and that song again. I immediately grew a fondness for that song. A few months later, I heard a cover version of "River" by Tom from the band dEUS. That prompted me to listen to that song in more detail, and the "Little Green" experience repeated itself. I had never paid much attention to "A Case of You" until I watched "Woman of Heart and Mind," and one of the interviewed mentioned that not before had an artist delved so deeply into their personal life on a record. That prompted a new review of the whole album. I now consider "Blue" to be one of my favorites, from start to finish. The magic was there, it just took me a while to grasp it all. While I dearly love "Blue," there is so much more that I love about Joni that it would take me all afternoon to write, so I'll just stop here for now. Thanks for reading. Wes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:51:09 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: My Joni Favorites (long) > While I dearly love "Blue," there is so much more that I love about Joni that > it would take me all afternoon to write, so I'll just stop here for now. > Thanks for reading. Wes, thanks for writing! If you can't write more this afternoon, how about this evening or tomorrow? : ) For me, one of the greatest things about this list is reading new members' stories of how they found Joni, and how her music and lyrics (and the rest of her art) has affected them. More, please! Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:57:23 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 Les I. wrote: > Maybe this has already been discussed but the last two "reissues" have been > exclusively the Geffen era. This leads me to believe that Geffen is > initiating these releases (obviously) to recycle material they own that > underproduced for them the first time. > > If this is the case, how on earth are they getting Joni to co-operate and > write new liner notes and such? Seems in direct contradiction to her > anti-music biz stance. Okay. THAT argument I will agree with. This makes me think that the new release has to have something to do with contract obligations. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:14:43 -0500 From: "Cynthia Vickery" Subject: Re: My Joni Favorites (long) <> welcome, wes. i'm glad you're here. i think we all hear ourselves in that bit i pasted above - it took me for-freakin'-EVER to be even begin to "get" 'hissing of summer lawns,' and now, it's my favorite joni recording. or my next-to-favorite. depends on the day. joni's tough - she says an awful lot of stuff in a little bitty amount of time, and then obscures it all in those yummy chords and swirls. there's a lot to digest. i'm hearing you say you like joni's earlier stuff, and i never listen to any of that - i'm firmly in the 'blue' thru 'wild things run fast' camp - but if you can stand a little advice from someone you already clearly disagree with, go grab a copy of 'hejira' and take a listen. i'd love to know what you think. it's my favorite. or my next-to-favorite. :o) at any rate - the magic's there, in spades. stick around, okay? new voices and new insights are always appreciated. really. cindy, in alabama ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:31:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: My Joni Favorites (long) - --- Cynthia Vickery wrote: > go grab a copy of > 'hejira' and take a listen. i'd love to know what you think. > it's my favorite. or my next-to-favorite. :o) at any rate - > the magic's there, in spades. I have to agree! Hejira grows on a person - it becomes a habit...I've been telling people to "fleece me with a gambler's floss" all day under my breath. That whole line is pretty amazing - when its coming up you think no way thats gonna all fit in, but it does, with room to spare! I like Joni's voice from the Hejira period best, I like it better than the early real high voice thing, with the sudden soprano upward spirals. But I gotta confess that STAS might still be my fave. If I were gonna lay a Joni album on a young person, thats the one I'd choose. Because it IS a young person writing and playing well beyond her years. If that album came out NOW and were passed around to community radio stations and no one knew who the heck it was, it would BLOW people away. But anyway, I love the sheer volume of Joni stuff out there. A delicious backlog of things to learn. So what's up with this "Turbulent Indigo"? - I've heard it referred to as genius, or some such glowing thing. Is it among her best? Em ===== .............. "I'm a wheel I'm a wheel, I can roll I can feel, and you can't stop me turning. I'm the sun I'm the sun I can move I can run, but you'll never stop me burning." ...rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:46:59 -0500 From: "Steven Polifka" Subject: re: The Beginning of Survival Thank You!!! You took my thoughts and wrote them for me- I thought I was the only one on the list... where was 'Tax Free' heard when all the TV evangelists were busted? Where was 'Magdalene Launderies' when it was printed in headlines all over the US (When, in fact, the song was already released before that). Yea, no one paid attention to them the first time around... Steve >>> "c Karma" 06/16/04 10:27AM >>> Les wrote: "Does this release frighten anyone besides me? I hate to think that Joni has resorted to the "let's repackage my old material in a zillion ways" phase of her career. Will this end up like The Who's old material has? "Let's see, which of these 17 greatest hits packages shall I buy?..." "I think it's sad that she's once again in a "political mood" but the only new idea she can cast upon it is a few liner notes. " Ouch! Yeah, I too think it's sad that current world conditions prompt Joni into a "political mood" but I also think you'd have to be an ostrich to avoid one completely. This one man's opinion is that few works have so much to say as succinctly as does this collection of songs. Too many people paid no mind to them the first time around and unfortunately, their relevance has not been lost. Perhaps that's the real reason the classics never go out of style. I think "The Beginning of Survival" may be the best public service announcement that the popular music industry has given us since Live Aid. No, it won't provide money to pay for hunger relief but if it prompts some people to review their ideologies, it may do good in many other ways. CC _________________________________________________________________ Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up now 3 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:32:02 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Turbulent Indigo Em inquired: > So what's up with this "Turbulent Indigo"? - I've heard it referred to > as genius, or some such glowing thing. Is it among her best? Of the 1990s, yes (imo). I generally hail "Night Ride Home" as better than TI, but I've probably played TI more. It won two Grammy Awards in 1996: Best Pop Album and Best Recording Package. This first verse of the last song has been stuck in my head for YEARS: "Let me speak let me spit out my bitterness Born of grief and nights without sleep and festering flesh Do you have eyes? Can you see like mankind sees? Why have you soured and curdled me? Oh you tireless watcher! What have I done to you? That you make everything I dread and everything I fear come true?" Lots of good reviews about TI can be found here: http://music.lycos.com/artist/album.asp?QT=A&QW=joni+mitchell&AN=Joni+Mitchell&MID=19195&id=169448 You check out all the lyrics to TI (and everything else) at http://www.jmdl.com/lyrics Lori ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:43:08 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Sonic Youth interview w/ Joni mention Thanks for sharing that, Victor...makes me wonder if their song "Hey Joni" from their breakthrough record 'Daydream Nation' is about and/or inspired by Joni, there are really no clues to give any idea that it is so, and I've talked with a couple of SY folks who couldn't confirm or deny it. Their latest one is also pretty awesome - a must have if you're an SY fan. Bob NP: RLJ, "Sailor Song" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:54:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: Turbulent Indigo thanks Lori, (for everything). Wow that verse you quoted did kick ass a bit. whew.... Em :) - --- Lori Fye wrote: > Em inquired: > > > So what's up with this "Turbulent Indigo"? - I've heard it referred > to > > as genius, or some such glowing thing. Is it among her best? > > Of the 1990s, yes (imo). I generally hail "Night Ride Home" as > better than TI, > but I've probably played TI more. It won two Grammy Awards in 1996: > Best Pop > Album and Best Recording Package. > > This first verse of the last song has been stuck in my head for > YEARS: > > "Let me speak let me spit out my bitterness > Born of grief and nights without sleep and festering flesh > Do you have eyes? > Can you see like mankind sees? > Why have you soured and curdled me? > Oh you tireless watcher! What have I done to you? > That you make everything I dread and everything I fear come true?" > > Lots of good reviews about TI can be found here: > http://music.lycos.com/artist/album.asp?QT=A&QW=joni+mitchell&AN=Joni+Mitchell&MID=19195&id=169448 > > You check out all the lyrics to TI (and everything else) at > http://www.jmdl.com/lyrics > > Lori > ===== .............. "I'm a wheel I'm a wheel, I can roll I can feel, and you can't stop me turning. I'm the sun I'm the sun I can move I can run, but you'll never stop me burning." ...rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:54:57 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - another thought **I say, buy the new release and give it to every concerned teen and 20-something you know (and don't stop there -- give it to those who AREN'T concerned, too). Your heart is in the right place Lori, but your basic teen and 20-something wouldn't give this collection the time of day and would dive for the 'eject' button before the first track was through. Most of these songs suck. Teens think of CD's as VERY disposable items. Plus, regardless of the lyrical strength of some of these songs, like Sir Duke said "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing" and this collection of red-headed stepchildren registers about a 0.2 on the swing-o-meter. Besides, it would be a betrayal of my own integrity to buy it - and I don't want to send any encouraging signs that this is something anybody wants. I'd sooner spend the time and resources putting together my own compilation to give to someone. To try and not come off as being such a pisspot negative Nelly...I will say that I would be excited if she took some of these songs back into the studio, stripped all that 80's gloss off and re-recorded them...but then again you can buff a turd as much as you want and at the end of the day it's still a turd. (I don't know this to be true from personal experience by the way) Bob NP: RLJ, "It takes you there" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:32:46 +0100 From: "Azeem" Subject: RE: Beginning of Survival JONI RELEASE JULY 27 - again, I say I opined: << It won't sell either. I just don't get it. >> Lori riposted: << I reiterate: it will sell if we buy it and give it to every kid we know. Why else are we here, anyway, if not to help Joni get her message out? >> Sorry, Lori, but I have a really strong reaction to this statement. I am on this list out of a love of Joni's music, and in a desire to connect with other people who share this love. I'm here to talk about what I like of her music, what I don't like, what other music I like, and about pretty much anything else. I am *not* here to help Joni Mitchell sell a cruddy, half-arsed compilation of stuff that is readily available in other places, and in some cases has already been anthologised. Some of the statements on these songs are powerful, but some are sanctimonious and trite. The presumption that slinging her more recent "message" songs together will make a coherent whole that will set people to rights on the evils of the world is beyond patronising. One other thing. Like not a few other people on this list, money is *exceedingly* tight for me. Joni knows how loyal her fanbase is - yet she's apparently willing to go along with this project to part them from yet more readies for stuff they already have. Of course she's not forcing us (and I wouldn't buy this even if I did have the money), but I resent it nonetheless. I don't see artistic integrity anywhere here. Azeem in London, feeling a bit snippy about this venture (no kidding...) - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.698 / Virus Database: 455 - Release Date: 02/06/2004 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #168 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)