From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #136 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, May 15 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 136 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation ["Kate Cox" ] Re: Joni Covers #31-40 [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT [Lori Fye ] TTT [=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= ] Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT ["hell" ] Re: Em & getting all of Joni's albums [PassScribe@aol.com] Today's Library Links: May 15 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT/anemia ["Kate Bennett"] Booklet in the Geffin Box (probably old news...) [Justalittlebreen@aol.co] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:43:34 +0000 From: "Kate Cox" Subject: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation Em wrote: OK all this talk of HOSL has got me thinking I have to have this CD. Was wondering if, based on the other JM stuff I like, someone could guess whether HOSL is gonna be one I like. I gotta admit I'm having a hard time finding much joy in DJRD. LOVE Hejira, LOVE Blue and the earlier stuff. I think there is a lot of stuff on HOSL you would like, Em. 1. You seem to have ridden smoothly over the use of jazz chords, time signatures and motifs in Hejira that a lot of people found hard to deal with. HOSL is really where her love affair with jazz started taking hold, although you can definitely see its beginnings in C&S and even FTR. 2. You like analysing her songs by the sound of things, and there is a lot to analyse on HOSL! 3. You seem to like the more confessional albums, STAS, Blue and Hejira. Joni doesnt cease to be confessional on HOSL, although I guess it does take more of a back seat. But if you want to know about the more personal, emotional elements of her state of mind at the time she was recording that album, you can pick up a lot from The Boho Dance and, especially, Sweet Bird. Dont Interrupt The Sorrow is a passionately personal take on the place of women in society, religion and politics. And although all the songs are social commentaries to some extent, they are definitively stamped with Jonis shrewd perspective. Do I sound like her PR or what?! Send me the receipt if you dont like it and Ill give you a full refund! Okay, my turn... Can someone please defend Taming The Tiger to me?! I felt really disappointed when I bought that album. I should admit that I haven't heard anything between Hejira and Taming The Tiger, so maybe I just need to pick up the story somewhere... Any thoughts? Love Kate C - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get a free connection, half-price modem and one month FREE, when you sign up for BT Broadband today! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 07:25:35 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni Covers #31-40 ** (This MUST be a record in itself, Bob... I'll bet no other fan of any artist has done something this comprehensive. If so, I'll love to know "who" and "what"). ** It's highly likely that I'm the only person on the planet screwy enough to keep up the chase to this extent. I don't know whether to be proud or ashamed! All I can say is that it is a tribute to this group that has continued to support it. ** I'm currently seeking any of the other packages of discs so I can fill in those I'm missing.** Ah, reading this makes my heart soar like an eagle! (And it won't be long before it's "60+"...just like Joni!) Bob NP: Sergio Mendes & Brasil '77, "Chelsea Morning (live)" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:07:37 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT Kate C wrote: > Okay, my turn... Can someone please defend Taming The Tiger to me?! I felt > really disappointed when I bought that album. I should admit that I haven't > heard anything between Hejira and Taming The Tiger, so maybe I just need to > pick up the story somewhere... Any thoughts? I'm not sure I can defend TTT, although it's grown on me over time. It remains one of the JM albums I listen to least, along with Chalkmark In A Rainstorm. Still, when I DO listen to it (and to CMIAR), I find myself enjoying it and saying to myself, "I should listen to this more often." Seems like the major complaint about TTT has been the sound of Joni's guitar, which is due to her use of the VG8. The secondary complaint might be the songwriting, which perhaps isn't as "deep" as on previous albums (think "Nice, kitty kitty" on the title track). There is also an undercurrent of Joni's dissatisfaction with the recording industry, particularly on "Lead Balloon." Almost no one wants to hear Joni bitch about the industry. The songwriting on TTT reminds me in some ways of the lyrics on (the album) Wild Things Run Fast, because for the most part Joni was in a sort of happy place again. I can remember people complaing about WTRF because it wasn't introspective enough -- but Joni was high on love when she wrote it and I love it for that. For TTT, Joni had reunited with her daughter Kilauren and was exploring those emotions (Stay In Touch), and I think that tone runs through most of the album. For my money, though, the best song on the album is "Man From Mars," even though it's written about Joni's cat. The melody, the production, and the lyrics hit me square in the heart every single time I hear it. Anyone else care to add their 2 cents? Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:24:16 +0000 From: "Kate Cox" Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT I wrote:"> > Okay, my turn... Can someone please defend Taming The Tiger to me?! I felt > > really disappointed when I bought that album. I should admit that I haven't > > heard anything between Hejira and Taming The Tiger, so maybe I just need to > > pick up the story somewhere... Any thoughts?" And Lori wrote: ">I'm not sure I can defend TTT, although it's grown on me over time. It remains >one of the JM albums I listen to least, along with Chalkmark In A Rainstorm. >Still, when I DO listen to it (and to CMIAR), I find myself enjoying it and >saying to myself, "I should listen to this more often." > >Seems like the major complaint about TTT has been the sound of Joni's guitar, >which is due to her use of the VG8. The secondary complaint might be the >songwriting, which perhaps isn't as "deep" as on previous albums (think "Nice, >kitty kitty" on the title track). There is also an undercurrent of Joni's >dissatisfaction with the recording industry, particularly on "Lead Balloon." >Almost no one wants to hear Joni bitch about the industry. > >The songwriting on TTT reminds me in some ways of the lyrics on (the album) Wild >Things Run Fast, because for the most part Joni was in a sort of happy place >again. I can remember people complaing about WTRF because it wasn't >introspective enough -- but Joni was high on love when she wrote it and I love >it for that. For TTT, Joni had reunited with her daughter Kilauren and was >exploring those emotions (Stay In Touch), and I think that tone runs through >most of the album. > >For my money, though, the best song on the album is "Man From Mars," even though >it's written about Joni's cat. The melody, the production, and the lyrics hit >me square in the heart every single time I hear it. " Hi Lori! Thanks for your reply. The points you picked up on were basically what made my heart sink when I heard it. I found it hard to believe that the poet we know and love was now writing such cliched lyrics (a rebellion against Mr Kratzman after all those years?). Oddly, your favourite 'Man from Mars' was one that distressed me most, containing such lyrics as 'The pain won't go away'. I felt like saying, Joni, don't you mean something along the lines of "While the song that he sang her to soothe her to sleep ran all through her circuits like a heartbeat, she's not going to fix it up too easy"?! But then, that has always been Joni's criticism of her fans: "Paint another Starry Night, man!". The music on Man From Mars does stand out, I agree, and I did wonder - from the soulful, jazzy tone of her voice - if she was attempting a more simple, basic, raw and heartfelt expression of emotional pain, like the female soul singers of the 60's. In order to defend my fragile psyche against the possibility that everything Joni has ever done might not have been perfect(!) I constructed quite an elaborate theory for why TTT was, well, the way it was. I do think it was connected to her reunion with Kilauren (although, in typical mysterious Joni fashion, she did claim 'Stay in Touch' wasn't actually about Kilauren). I don't believe her though! But I'm gonna wait and see what others think before I go wading in with my theory! Love Kate >From: Lori Fye >To: Kate Cox >CC: joni@smoe.org >Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT >Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:07:37 -0700 > >Kate C wrote: > > >I'm not sure I can defend TTT, although it's grown on me over time. It remains >one of the JM albums I listen to least, along with Chalkmark In A Rainstorm. >Still, when I DO listen to it (and to CMIAR), I find myself enjoying it and >saying to myself, "I should listen to this more often." > >Seems like the major complaint about TTT has been the sound of Joni's guitar, >which is due to her use of the VG8. The secondary complaint might be the >songwriting, which perhaps isn't as "deep" as on previous albums (think "Nice, >kitty kitty" on the title track). There is also an undercurrent of Joni's >dissatisfaction with the recording industry, particularly on "Lead Balloon." >Almost no one wants to hear Joni bitch about the industry. > >The songwriting on TTT reminds me in some ways of the lyrics on (the album) Wild >Things Run Fast, because for the most part Joni was in a sort of happy place >again. I can remember people complaing about WTRF because it wasn't >introspective enough -- but Joni was high on love when she wrote it and I love >it for that. For TTT, Joni had reunited with her daughter Kilauren and was >exploring those emotions (Stay In Touch), and I think that tone runs through >most of the album. > >For my money, though, the best song on the album is "Man From Mars," even though >it's written about Joni's cat. The melody, the production, and the lyrics hit >me square in the heart every single time I hear it. > >Anyone else care to add their 2 cents? > >Lori - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have more fun with your phone - download ringtones, logos, screensavers, games & more. Click here to begin! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:39:20 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT Kate C wrote: > Oddly, your favourite 'Man from Mars' was one that distressed me most, > containing such lyrics as 'The pain won't go away'. I felt like saying, Joni, > don't you mean something along the lines of "While the song that he sang her > to soothe her to sleep ran all through her circuits like a heartbeat, she's > not going to fix it up too easy"?! That's a very good point, Kate. The lyrics on TTT are kind of simple, and in some cases quite awkward. They don't "flow." As for "Man From Mars," I think it IS the simple directness that appeals to me. I do wish the song weren't about Joni's cat, though. I mean, I have cats that I would write songs about, but ... Eh, I shouldn't complain. Something from Joni is better than nothing from Joni. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:55:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT/anemia Kate wrote: "But then, that has always been Joni's criticism of her fans: "Paint another Starry Night, man!". I guess a person can only "paint with their own blood" for so long. Pretty soon you start to get anemic. :( Em ===== .............. "I'm a wheel I'm a wheel, I can roll I can feel, and you can't stop me turning. I'm the sun I'm the sun I can move I can run, but you'll never stop me burning." ...rainbow ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:07:36 +0000 From: "Kate Cox" Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT/anemia >Kate wrote: >"But then, that has always been Joni's criticism of her fans: "Paint >another Starry Night, man!". And Em wrote: >I guess a person can only "paint with their own blood" for so long. >Pretty soon you start to get anemic. >:( >Em Oh my god, you are so right. We totally shouldn't expect her to keep doing it, because it is to the detriment of her other mission: love. "In search of love and music my whole life has been, illumination, corruption and diving, diving, diving, diving". She said (on Woman of Heart & Mind) that the pearls of creativity are honed by the sands of depression (something along those lines), and she knew that if she was to strike against the nerves of her listeners and make lightbulbs go off for them and change the way they thought, she had to strike against her own nerves. That's a pretty draining thing to have to do, especially when the original impetus for your creative struggle (rebellion against the wife/mother role) has now been rendered obsolete (reunion with Kilauren). I wouldn't want to make her feel pressured!!! Love Kate - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Have more fun with your phone - download ringtones, logos, screensavers, games & more. Click here to begin! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 11:40:42 -0500 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT Having just found this one a short while ago, last winter before leaving Wisconsin, haven't had that much time to listen to it but have enjoyed it more each time that I did. Now, it has joined C and S, FTR, DED, and Blue at the top of the heap. Harlem in Havana- The initial image brought to mind and feelings that it invokes are those of youth, out with friends, nary a care in the world as the barker calls all. 'Step right up'- now couldn't that be anything in life? Take a chance, put the foot down, go for it. 'The show is about to begin', our lives and weren't they grand days thinking of what the show would bring? Hmmm, has it been as good as the vision or less so and does it matter for it was our show alone? I saw em dangling in his eyes. Lead Balloon- 'kiss my ass I said.' For me, that line alone is worth anything else this song might bring. What could be better? Angry man is angry man, angry woman is bitch. Can't really understand how women feel in relation to men and their treatment in the world but as a fag, know that bitch is not a female term. Lori referred to the music on this album. No expert on such but find that Joan uses it well to convey the emotions, settings, for the tunes here. Have listened to much music with poor sound; for example most of Janis' was shit but didn't take away from her, for me. As for the meaning of the songs and why they were written, the cat for instance, I find that music means so many different things to others that I oft don't pay attention to anything other than where it/they take(s) me. Isn't that the point and isn't that what songwriters, writers are attempting to do, aside from the self expression that is, of course, the driving force for their creations? No Apologies-Darn, this one is almost prophetic and reminds me of some of the tunes on DED. I wonder to myself how could Joan have known what was going to happen in the future, is the woman psychic? Takes my thoughts to Iraq and this latest fiasco with our military, at least the small portion of them that act poorly. At least, we can hope it is only a small portion. 'No apologies, petty little tyrant', 'laying america to waste.' Immediately my mind traveled to the white house, now tarnished and probably turning greenish on the outside, and that person inside of it. You know the one, georgie boy. One more line from this song hit home 'what makes a man a man?' Good question and not answered by the common knowledge banks as homosexuals are not considered men by many. Great food for thought. love puts on a new face- The beginning of this one is awesome, to use an overused term but applicable here. aw, 'heavenly grace.' Those special nights that come too few, too far in between, and leave nothing but the sweetest memories in our heads. And doesn't it, love, put on a different face each and every day? Joan, the visionary. She pulls thoughts from the head that either had not entered before or had long ago grown dormant or dead. I have to write that I find the songwriting here, on this effort, some of her best. stay in touch- Wasn't aware this one was about Joan and her daughter. To me, for me, it is more of a universal sentiment and makes the heart ache as one thinks of partings of the past, those of the future, and trying to hold onto something so very sweet, unbearable to let go, that cannot be held any longer. The wistful looks behind, over the shoulder; hands growing ever so apart, slowly. And where did our joan find some of these thoughts? 'clinging like fire to fuel' ' part is permanent, part is passing' Time for work, to feed this one. Overused to describe Joan and more thoughts on TTT are there but brilliance, purest it is, here in this. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:40:52 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT Mack, I really enjoyed what you had to say about TTT, such a refreshingly different perspective on things even if I don't totally agree. I like this album; it's not among her best work but seemed to be pointing the way to a good direction. I LOVED Harlem, that first time Joni sings "Its Ha-a-a-a-arlem in Havana time, step right in..."reminds of those fabulous vocal swoops and gli-i-i-i-i-i-i-ides of hers. And the lyrics are interesting too as she retells a memory from her childhood. Man From Mars is also top-notch. While the lyric is simpler than what you may be accustomed to, I think it's appropriate for such a mournful song that she speaks so plainly..."the pain won't go away - what am I gonna do?" Rather than plumb a metaphor, she just puts the emotional cards on the table. Then there are the love songs, where she does write more in her own blood; Stay In Touch, Face Lift, Love Puts On A New Face...these were exciting to me because Joni has the potential to write unique songs from her perspective...a mother just discovering her daughter and her grandchildren, yet still trying to reconcile with her own mother. Fascinating themes, but she just brushes the surface. Not that I want gossipy detail, but Joni's songs have been openly about feelings, and here she seems to not let us past the wall. Then there are the "my gripes with the world" tracks...No Apologies, Taming The Tiger, Lead Balloon...these all come off sounding hokey & phony - no more sincere than some of the diatribes from DED & CMIARS. Then there's the sonics of this record. Like Lori said, the same synthetic-sounding guitar chimes throughout, and for no good reason. Most of these songs call out for a warmth that matches the lyrics. Compare the version of Man From Mars that she did on acoustic piano. Much better. A more diverse selection of musical colors would have helped immensely. So I don't mean to paint negatives all over TTT, at an age where most of her contemporaries had long ago abandoned trying to remain creative, Joni gave it a shot. She just doesn't hit all the targets all the time. Plus, when you're competing with magnificence like C&S, Blue, Hejira, the bar is very high. Bob NP: Joni, "Refuge Of The Road" (all this Hejira talk has made me pull my copy off the shelf!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:43:59 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT/anemia **We totally shouldn't expect her to keep doing it, because it is to the detriment of her other mission: love. "In search of love and music my whole life has been, illumination, corruption and diving, diving, diving, diving". ** Funny though, that she altered that lyric almost immediately. Every live version I've heard has her singing "in search of TRUTH & BEAUTY" instead of the original. Do you think maybe she attaches more permanence to those two nouns as opposed to 'love and music'? Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 13:02:23 -0500 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT Great thoughts Bob. Look forward to discussing your points and finishing my thoughts on TTT. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 18:35:01 +0000 From: "Kate Cox" Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT/anemia/truth and beauty! Em said: I guess a person can only "paint with their own blood" for so long. Pretty soon you start to get anemic. And I said: >**We totally shouldn't expect her to keep doing it, because it is to >the detriment of her other mission: love. "In search of love and music my >whole life has been, illumination, corruption and diving, diving, diving, >diving". ** And Bob said: >Funny though, that she altered that lyric almost immediately. >Every live version I've heard has her singing "in search of >TRUTH & BEAUTY" instead of the original. Do you think maybe she >attaches more permanence to those two nouns as opposed to >'love and music'? Really? Did she? Now that is ever so interesting! I shall have to speculate on that! But I think your notion of 'attaching more permanence' is right. Love and music, perhaps, are what she seeks on the surface, especially as a young woman. They may be representations of the underlying concepts of truth and beauty. Now, in line with my (probably completely off-the-mark!) theory that Joni was caught in a conflict between belonging and experience during her early albums, I had been interpreting it as "love VERSUS music", the two desires opposing each other. If this were the case, and they represented or reflected truth and beauty, then truth and beauty would have to oppose each other, too. Could they? Do they, in Mitchellism? I can't, off the mark, think of any evidence that they do, unless of course beauty is something superficial and fake: "A pretty girl in your bathroom, checking out her sex appeal; I asked myself when you said you loved me, do you think this can be real?" Hmm! That doesn't seem very convincing! My argument appears to be weakened by your information! :-) What do you (or anyone else) think about the relationship between love and music, truth and beauty? Perhaps I'm just reading too much into it and she just thought of some apparently better lyrics. There is always the danger of interpreting things too much! Love Kate - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stay in touch better and keep protected online with MSNs NEW all-in-one Premium Services. Find out more here. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:13:07 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT/anemia/truth and beauty! I don't think your theories are off the mark at all, Kate - Joni's work began with issues of duality (Seaside vs. City, belonging to someone vs. being free, etc) and have continued throughout. The Eagle & The Serpent... I don't think she (nor should we) see love/music, truth/beauty as either/or but rather as seperate but equal goals. After all, she does say love AND music, as opposed to love OR music. Then again, truth & beauty are subjective, right? I mean, what you see as truth and what I see as truth are probably not going to be identical; by the same token beauty is VERY subjective - in the eye of the beholder, right? Even given that subjectivity though, I think Joni figured that a search for truth AND beauty, instead of love & music, was a more noble and ultimately a more satisfying search. Ay yi yi! Too much philosophy for a Friday - I'm ready for a kobeer. :~) Bob NP: The Swimming Pool Q's, "Out Of Nothing" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 12:31:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Em Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT/anemia/truth and beauty! Kate blows my "weak and a lazy mind" with: What do you (or anyone else) think about the relationship between > love and music, truth and beauty? Perhaps I'm just reading too much > into > it and she just thought of some apparently better lyrics. I like music and love better. The other two are too "out there" and remind me of this priest I'd like to kick in the butt. If I had my choice of spending an afternoon/evening (whatever) with a couple comprised of Ms. Music and Ms. Love, OR Ms. Truth and Ms. Beauty, well hell I'd go for Music and Love every time. All we're missing is the drugs! Music and love gives us the sex and rock and roll right there.... 'scuse me for being puerile..but its been a helluva week. gotta bust out! :D Em "Sharing the things we know and love With those of my kind Libations Sensations That stagger the mind..." Steely Dan 'cept I think he really says "that standard of mine" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 15:53:14 -0700 From: Mike Friedman Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation You don't have it! Run, don't walk! It's amazing......it was my first serious exposure to Joni and I adore it. My friend at the time told me he was about to play "the best pop album ever made." I actually think Hejira is a bit better, but it's quite a record. Though I-bars and girders through wires and pipes, The mathematic circuits of the modern night. Through huts, through Harlem, through jails and gospel pews. With the clash on Park and the trash on Vine. Through Europe and the deep deep heart of dixie blues. Through savage progress cuts The Jungle line. (all to the beat of these great Burundian drummers--world music wasn't even an idea in 1975). On May 14, 2004, at 1:43 AM, Kate Cox wrote: > > > Em wrote: > > OK all this talk of HOSL has got me thinking I have to have this CD. > > Was wondering if, based on the other JM stuff I like, someone could > > guess whether HOSL is gonna be one I like. > > I gotta admit I'm having a hard time finding much joy in DJRD. > > LOVE Hejira, LOVE Blue and the earlier stuff. > > > > I think there is a lot of stuff on HOSL you would like, Em. > > > > 1. You seem to have ridden smoothly over the use of jazz chords, time > > signatures and motifs in Hejira that a lot of people found hard to > deal with. > > HOSL is really where her love affair with jazz started taking hold, > although > > you can definitely see its beginnings in C&S and even FTR. > > > > 2. You like analysing her songs by the sound of things, and there is a > lot to > > analyse on HOSL! > > > > 3. You seem to like the more confessional albums, STAS, Blue and > Hejira. > > Joni doesnt cease > to be confessional on HOSL, although I guess it does take > > more of a back seat. But if you want to know about the more personal, > > emotional elements of her state of mind at the time she was recording > that > > album, you can pick up a lot from The Boho Dance and, especially, > Sweet Bird. > > Dont Interrupt The Sorrow is a passionately personal take on the > place of > > women in society, religion and politics. And although all the songs > are social > > commentaries to some extent, they are definitively stamped with Jonis > shrewd > > perspective. > > > > Do I sound like her PR or what?! Send me the receipt if you dont like > it and > > Ill give you a full refund! > > > > Okay, my turn... Can someone please defend Taming The Tiger to me?! I > felt > > really disappointed when I bought that album. I should admit that I > haven't > > heard anything between Hejira and Taming The Tiger, so maybe I just > need to > > pick up the story somewhere... Any thoughts? > > > > Love Kate C > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > Get a free connection, half-price modem and one month FREE, when you > sign > up for BT Broadband today! > > ========================== "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)" - --Walt Whitman Mike Friedman San Francisco, CA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 19:59:21 -0400 From: "Janine Sherman" Subject: Myrtle Hello everyone, All this talk of Myrtle jogged my memory from articles or video mentions ( please excuse minor inaccuracies) and got me thinking: 1. Joni tells her mum she loves her a lot before she sings Cherokee Louise in the Toronto musical spot (forget name) as well as tells the story of her mom denying that "they" are part Indian, but Joni insists that there is a blonde sect of some tribe or other.... ( I love that whole episode because it reminds me of myself- loving my mom, but disagreeing with her on many issues but letting her own her side of it without trynig to change her mind about it or allowing her opinion to change mine. 2. On another music video, Joni sings "Dancing Clown " while dancing around her kitchen with her cat. She precedes it by saying her mom just loves that song and she (Myrtle) puts on her walkman and dances around to it, too. 3. Somewhere or other in an article a childhod friend says that Myrtle let her paint a mural on her wall in her bedroom at a young age. 4. After Joni reunited with Killauren her mom admited they did not even know she had a baby until a couple of years after the fact and would have helped her if they had known. 5. She justified Joni's divorce from Klein sharing he was much younger and suffered from depresion (defending Joan). I would say it sounds like an HONEST mother and daughter relationship. (ups and downs) Whoever said Joni has been a disappointment to Myrtle must be seeing it through their own nearsidedness or basing it on Myrtle's normal motherly complaints. I would say my mother would be proud of my artistic talent, but a little miffed if I painted myself tongue to tongue with my lover or placed a bare breasted woman on the shoulders of Dubya ..... and included the art in my records, but hey it makes Joni who she is and bravo for her- after all she is one nervy broad. All the best, Janine NP: The Thrill is Gone, BB King ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 01:35:59 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= Subject: TTT My turn! I like TTT, there are songs on it which really hit home for me. Harlem In Havana is just so much JOY, especially with the surprising intro, just something that you wouldn't expect Joni to do. But I've learned that I should never expect Joni to do anything I expect. The most 'join-the-dotty' progression that I can make of recent years is NRH to TI but only because they are both largely acoustic numbers (I say largely due to the keyboards used underneath in the mix). TI isn't afraid to be dark where I think NRH was made as a pill as 'there are hard times coming, people are going to have to strengthen themselves and their compassion'. (Joni's words, not mine). Then when TTT comes along, you have to go WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIT a minute, this is going to be different! And it works. There does seem to be a split of Love songs and Hate songs - both just as passionately done as each other. No Apologies is just brilliant (and I have got used to her saying 'echo-systems' as opposed to ecosystems, (unless she is talking about he pa breaking down, then all is forgiven). The stanza about Freddie and Juan is a little obscured but I think this has been previously discussed as Fred (Walecki) and Juan (Jann? Wenner, the then head of Warners) but that is just speculation. Stay In Touch is simply beautiful. I know it's been mentioned on the list, that it's about Kilauren and I think even Joni says in interviews that Kilauren thinks it's about Kilauren, but that her songs are about whatever the listener wants them to be about. You can transpose it to whatever the situation. I prefer it to be about love blossoming and it's more a statement of honesty and intentions. If I see it being just about Kilauren, then it limits it's possibilities as a song. And the title track, I was listening to it today at work, I was thinking 'This is REALLY cheeky, really barefaced. Just having a pop at everyone. Like in rap music, she's doing the same thing, dissing the competition. AND WHY NOT? The singers that make up the bulk of the charts today don't have half the talent. It's true. Nobody listens to the music half the time, it's just great video. Who listens to Damien Rice ar Aimee Mann or Joni or and would bother about the single? You buy the album hopefully to get more songs of the same calibre. I gotta get to bed before I start winding myself up with this subject. Audition tomorrow for more theatre work (yay!) Gnight all and Much Joni Jamie Zoob - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 12:54:11 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT Bob wrote: > Then there's the sonics of this record. Like Lori said, the > same synthetic-sounding guitar chimes throughout, and for no > good reason. Most of these songs call out for a warmth that > matches the lyrics. Compare the version of Man From Mars that > she did on acoustic piano. Much better. A more diverse > selection of musical colors would have helped immensely. > > So I don't mean to paint negatives all over TTT, at an age > where most of her contemporaries had long ago abandoned trying > to remain creative, Joni gave it a shot. She just doesn't hit > all the targets all the time. > > Plus, when you're competing with magnificence like C&S, Blue, > Hejira, the bar is very high. I'm with Bob on this one - I definitely like TTT, but I don't think it ranks among her "best" work. Musically it's a little boring, since most of the song have the same kind of sound to me. The VG8, while allowing Joni to keep performing (which is a very good thing) does seem to have confined her to a specific style for some reason - to my ears, anyway. But lyrically, there are some real gems. Perhaps not as many as other albums (as Bob says, it's hard to compete with Blue or Hejira!) but they're still there. Some personal favourites include: I said "Send me some pictures then And I'll paint pyrotechnic Explosions of your autumn till we meet again" Every song just a one night stand Formula music, girly guile Genuine junkfood for juveniles Up and down the dial Mercenary style (love the alliteration in the third line) Every kiss was sweet and strong Every touch was totally tandem As the train come a-rumbling along They sang a lover's song of wild abandon (again - great alliteration) Stay in Touch is a gorgeous song, and whether it's about Kilauren or Donald or whoever, it descibes that fragile area at the start of any relationship incredibly well. I do play this one quite a lot - certainly a lot more than STAS or Clouds. And although I said it doesn't rank alongside her best work, it stands up pretty well against releases from other artists at the time (I'm thinking Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera). I think THAT is the real benchmark for me, not how it ranks against other Joni albums! Hell - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a WHOLE NEW EXPERIENCE! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 12:57:47 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Myrtle Janine wrote: > I would say it sounds like an HONEST mother and daughter relationship. (ups > and downs) Whoever said Joni has been a disappointment to Myrtle must be > seeing it through their own nearsidedness or basing it on Myrtle's normal > motherly complaints. I would say my mother would be proud of my artistic > talent, but a little miffed if I painted myself tongue to tongue with my > lover or placed a bare breasted woman on the shoulders of Dubya ..... and > included the art in my records, but hey it makes Joni who she is and bravo > for her- after all she is one nervy broad. I think another thing to remember is something Joni said herself - "I sing my sorrow, and I paint my joy". That whole thing about Joni's music being depressing comes into play here too. Personally, I think Joni uses her music as therapy much of the time, to get things "out", as it were. That would include any difficulties she has with her mother, but as she doesn't tend to write about the good stuff, we only hear the bad side! Janine descibed several positive things Joni has said about her mother, but all of those things were said in interviews or at concerts, not in her lyrics! Hell - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a WHOLE NEW EXPERIENCE! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 22:29:03 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re: Em & getting all of Joni's albums << From: Em Subject: re: all the HOSL stuff etc wow you got me drooling now. Can't wait! Someone mentioned HOSL falls between CAS and Hejira, so if its in anyway the gradient that joins them, then its bound to be great. Em >> Hi, Em; yeah, C&S is my favorite Joni album and it took me a while to fully appreciate Hejira but I love it now... I agree with those who say that HOSL fits neatly in between them. I read that you were concerned with spending a lot on CD's lately and I was wondering if you're near any used CD stores (we have quite a few on Long Island here) or if you have a turntable (I've seen lots of used Joni LP's) which will save you some money; also, if you're not too thrilled with an album, it doesn't hurt too much 'cause you paid less for it. The other point is: if you really love music (and Joni's music, in particular) you will eventually have to get all the albums anyway... you only live once, so enjoy it as best you can! Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 02:04:08 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: May 15 On May 15 the following articles were published: 1998: "Bob Dylan leads excellent triple bill" - Jam! Website (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=141 1998: "Historic Night Like Revisiting the Past" - Vancouver Province (Review - Concert, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=407 1998: "Rock legends bring out the boomers" - Edmonton Journal (Review - Concert, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=101 1998: "Trio Effort Makes Return of '60's Icons Memorable" - Vancouver Sun (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=410 1998: "Trio, Fans More Subdued Than In their Rocking Youth" - Vancouver Province (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=408 1998: "Unpredictable Icons Can Still Rock When They Want To" - Toronto Globe and Mail (Review - Concert, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=375 2000: "In love with Joni" - Contra Costa Times (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=510 2000: "Joni Mitchell's Dull Twist On Standards" - San Francisco Chronicle (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=508 2000: "Mitchell Overcome By Orchestra" - Variety (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=511 2000: "Mitchell's Truly Fusing Both Sides Now" - Los Angeles Times (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=507 2000: "Performance Shows New Side of Mitchell" - Daily News of Los Angeles (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=919 2000: "Short Sets - Joni Mitchell" - Orange County Register (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=920 2000: "Uneven evening with Joni Mitchell" - San Francisco Examiner (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=509 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 23:45:51 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: HOSL/ more/ a request for speculation/ now TTT/anemia "In search of love and music my whole life has been, illumination, corruption and diving, diving, diving, diving". ** Bob> Funny though, that she altered that lyric almost immediately. Every live version I've heard has her singing "in search of TRUTH & BEAUTY" instead of the original. Do you think maybe she attaches more permanence to those two nouns as opposed to 'love and music'? I think she overthought it & as a result diminished the line... Love & music is to me, from a pure emotional passionate place... Replacing those words with truth & beauty is very cerebral & detached IMO... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 02:56:06 EDT From: Justalittlebreen@aol.com Subject: Booklet in the Geffin Box (probably old news...) Hi, gang, I finally today got around to buying the four-album Geffin set that came out, what, last fall. Did anyone else who got the set have some of the pages in the booklet reversed? no pages are missing, but around page 60 or so, the pages are upside-down and backwards for about ten pages, and then revert to right-side up, etc. Did a lot of these get out -- was it "Geffin's Revenge"? -- or do i have a collector's item? Sorry if this has already been discussed to death -- I've been essentially off my Mac for the last six months, for a variety of reasons, and missed any discussion that may have ensued. Best to all, Walt "Noodlehead" Breen ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #136 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)