From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #134 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Thursday, May 13 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 134 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Hejira, now Joni & her Mum ["tantra_apso" ] Re:songs about women and/or men; HOSL ["Kate Cox" ] Re:songs about women and/or men; HOSL [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: songs about women and/or men; HOSL [Doug ] HOSL [Bruce Kimerer ] Re:songs about women and/or men; HOSL [Jenny Goodspeed ] Re: songs about women and/or men; HOSL, Hejira [Smurfycopy@aol.com] re:Hejira, now Joni & her Mum [Doug Boudreau ] re:Hejira, now Joni & her Mum [Catherine McKay ] Re: Re:songs about women and/or men; HOSL ["hell" ] Today's Library Links: May 13 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 09:13:44 +0100 From: "tantra_apso" Subject: Re: Hejira, now Joni & her Mum Catherine wrote: Even in cases > where there is no abuse, there may be one parent (or > maybe both) who is a very strong figure that the child > looks up to and fears in a way. It may be that the > person has such a strong personality and seems to be > *right* and *perfect* in every way, and doesn't > demonstrate a lot of, or any, flexibility, and a child > who is sensitive may constantly be trying to live up > to that parent's expectations. I, for one, remember > being a child who never wanted to make any mistakes. > Everything I did had to be well done - perfect, if at > all possible. a point to be argued another time: abuse can be subtle and also not deliberate. A person such as you describe is at the least being mentally/emotionally abusive. It is an abuse of a child to expect them to live up to your expectations. I know the need to be perfect and not make mistakes! Oh, if one isn't perfect, one isn't liked or loved and if one isn't liked or loved, one might as well be dead. Abandonment. That is what is is about and that is the message given-overtly or covertly-be what I want or I will abandon you. That is abuse. Kate's point about learning/seeing where the parents got their shit from-doesn't make a great deal of difference. It can make it worse-make it more incomprehensible. Why dish out what was dished out to you? It also is not an excuse. Everyone has shit to deal with-not all deal this shit out to others. Unfortunately, 'do unto others what was done unto you' is a very common way of living. It is the cowards way out. You can make mistakes, be less than perfect and be like the rest of us! Those crirical voices that live rent free in our heads can be evicted. bw colin bw colin http://www.btinternet.com/~tantraapso/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 12:06:10 -0400 (EDT) From: david sapp Subject: Re: Hejira, now Joni & her Mum Joni's issues with her Mum may be different than mine or yours, but I don't see hers as more extreme or necessarily in need of "therapeutic" intervention. I think she is just honest enough to write about it and put it out there. Seems like pretty universal stuff to me. peace, david ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 19:35:13 +0000 From: "Kate Cox" Subject: Re:songs about women and/or men; HOSL Bruce wrote: >Harry's House seems now to me to >be, poignantly, about Harry. I remember when I first knew and loved the song >I felt, in accordance with the times, that it was about a woman who had been >made an object by an ambitious, corporate-success-hungry husband -- >"nothings's any good" because he has essentially abandoned her, left to >choose wallpaper instead of allowing her to be self-actuated. >Now I hear it as something very different -- about a woman who got who she >wanted but is still not satisfied, while her husband does what he needs to >do to provide her with what she wants. >Harry is still smitten (Centerpiece) by a woman who keeps reeling him in by >his fond memories and her complaints. Nothing's any good. >Joni has always treated men and women with the same no-bullshit eye. I really agree with you here Bruce! I have thought a lot about Harry's House, and like you my perspectives have changed. My Dad warned me that it was a very disturbing song, and my take on it was always pretty much the same as yours: that Harry is trapped by a woman's body, greed and need for him. I was very surprised, when I recently read a biography of Joni called 'Shadows and Light', that the author perceived it as the other way round. She called Harry's wife 'a trophy wife' who had seen through Harry's attempts to trap her with material belongings, and had told him where to go: "To tell him like she did today, just what he could do with Harry's house and Harry's take home pay". You say,"Joni has always treated men and women with the same no-bullshit eye". You're absolutely right, she makes it clear to us that both Harry and his wife are full of bullshit: "Battalions of paper-minded males, talking commodities and sales, while at home their paper wives and their paper kids paper the walls to keep their gut reactions hid". She is dealing with a couple who have both been indoctrinated by a lust for material affluence and a tendency to mistake people for their monetary value or superficial appearance: "Skinny black models with raving curls and beauty-parlour blondes with credit card eyes". Moreover, both of them are slipping into a profound unawareness of the reality of their lives: "She is lost in house and garden, he's caught up in chief of staff". We wonder if Harry and his wife, once upon a time, loved each other. But then, as you say, Joni kicks us into awareness with, "Shining hair and shining skin, shining as she reeled him in". Yet Harry, I think, does believe he was once in love, or at least infatuated: "He drifts off into the memory of the way she looked in school, with her body oiled and shining at the public swimming pool". I sympathise with Harry because he still has his memories of something more warm and vital than pursuit of wealth. I also feel he has some sense of the moving poetry of life (a bit like A Strange Boy) and even perhaps some vague ideas about the insignificance of man inside the machine: "People thirty storeys down look like coloured currants in the street/ A helicopter lands on a Pan-Am roof like a dragonfly on a tomb". Yet we know Harry is trapped and helpless right from the start, "Caught up at the lights in the fishnet windows of Bloomingdales, watching those high-fashion girls". But what is he trapped by? Is it JUST women, JUST sex, JUST money, JUST material belongings? I would argue that it may masquerade in those sophisticated guises, but that at its root it is desperate, desperate need. On the surface his wife may view him as a trophy, as a sign of her own worth, but underneath that she desperately needs him because nothing in her life is worthwhile without him. "God I sure am sick of that sofa...I said get down off of there...When you coming home Harry? Nothing's any good!". She is, at some level, aware of the meaninglessness and emptiness of her life. He is warmth, he is a heartbeat, he is something alive and vibrant amidst the thick choking blankness of her belongings. Well, there I go again! I have to say this really is an opinion in transition, as my personal feelings and ideas about human beings' needs for each other are currently undergoing some upheavals! Oh, and talking of HOSL, Colin wrote: >It wa smy first Joni album ever bought on the strenght of having hear The >Jungle Line on the radio. Now, 29 years alter, it still sounds so good. Her >voice in good form. I ca imagine th shock this album must have caused her fans >as it was so different form her previous works. One cannot blame some of them >for not going on with Joni. As it was my first album, i ahd nothing to go ona >nd later when i did have them all, i liked her constant chaning. It was my 2nd Joni album after Hejira. I thought it was absolutely phenomenal, a masterpiece of social commentary at the same time as making me feel I was sharing a smoky intimacy with a cynical yet romantic genius at the height of her mastery of music... I was so suprised when I started reading articles and fans' views on the Joni Mitchell and jmdl websites, reading about people who saw it as a betrayal, or as empty and pretentious. But I know I can't imagine how they felt when it was new, and raw, and in its temporal context. So, did anyone buy HOSL when it first came out? What did you think? Sorry this is such a long post! Love Kate C - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stay in touch better and keep protected online with MSNs NEW all-in-one Premium Services. Find out more here. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 16:16:03 -0400 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re:songs about women and/or men; HOSL Hi Kate - another great post; keep 'em coming. I didn't buy it when it came out, but I remember hearing a lot of it on the radio and liking it. It seemed to me to be a logical progression from the jazz-feel of Court & Spark, so I certainly didn't see it as any kind of betrayal. Then again, I was not into her early stuff at all. (I went back and bought it after Hejira came out and I craved more of this "jazz literature" or whatever you wanna call it; nobody else was doing anything like it at the time. Regarding Harry's House, like you say I don't think Joni paints either of the characters as the "bad guy" in the situation, rather they've used each other to achieve what they THOUGHT they wanted, only to discover their lack of fulfillment and frustration while simultaneously acknowledging the trap they're in. The inclusion of 'Centerpiece' is pure genius and gives the song a real cinematic effect. Bob NP: The Subdudes, "Angel To Be" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 17:02:54 -0400 From: Doug Subject: Re: songs about women and/or men; HOSL Hi Kate I remember my reaction to HOSL back in '75 when I was 19. It didn't completely turn me off but I knew my relationship with Joni was going downhill. I did like most of side one and the title song. The musical arrangements were better than ever except I didn't like the cheesy synthesizer. I was ambivalent about Harry's House, I imagined this was the type of life Joni saw in L.A.. I couldn't identify with it though I knew it was something to be avoided. And I have been successful at that. I followed Joni's music since 1968, my sister owned STAS and Judy Collins Wildflowers. I liked Both Sides Now so when Clouds was released I bought it, my first LP. I was hooked already. I distinctly remember the end of the line was when I heard Coyote. I hated it. Her Jazz influence didn't impress me in a good way. I felt she had traded in her soul for style. I finally bought Hejira on CD about a year ago but it doesn't do anything for me. And the Shadows and Light DVD? yuk! Doug in Ottawa >>nd later when i did have them all, i liked her constant changing. It was >> >> >my 2nd Joni album after Hejira. I thought it was absolutely phenomenal, a >masterpiece of social commentary at the same time as making me feel I was >sharing a smoky intimacy with a cynical yet romantic genius at the height >of her mastery of music... I was so suprised when I started reading >articles and fans' views on the Joni Mitchell and jmdl websites, reading >about people who saw it as a betrayal, or as empty and pretentious. But I >know I can't imagine how they felt when it was new, and raw, and in its >temporal context. So, did anyone buy HOSL when it first came out? What >did you think? Sorry this is such a long post! Love Kate C > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Stay in touch better and keep protected online with MSNs NEW all-in-one >Premium Services. Find out more here. > >. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 19:31:56 -0400 From: Bruce Kimerer Subject: HOSL kate asked: > So, did anyone buy HOSL when it first came out? What > did you think? Yes, I did buy the HOSL LP immediately. I was 21. And I totally loved it. I had no problem with where JM's evolution was taking her. Loved Jungle Line. Loved Scarlett. Loved Harry and S&L. In some ways, this record is my favorite of all her records. To me, her language was reaching peaks that she hadn't reached before. Telling stories with a precision and subtlety and complexity that she has matched, but still not surpassed. (The tunes are really good too.) and kate added: > My Dad warned me that > it was a very disturbing song, and my take on it was always pretty much > the same as yours: that Harry is trapped by a woman's body, greed and > need for him. I don't know why -- but your dad's warning strikes me as funny. (I don't know how old you are, and when this warning took place, or in what context, but 'parental warnings' about Joni is funny.) But my first impression was the opposite. My initial take was that the woman was trapped -- by a man, by society, by sexist culture, by materialism, etc. All the standard tropes of the mid-70s. To my ears, at that time, Harry was the heavy. It's only over time that I hear something else, and understand the much more complex portrait that JM is painting. 'Centerpiece' is Harry's reverie about the dreams he once had (still has) about the woman he loves. (There's really nothing in the song to say that Harry has done her wrong in any way.) Now, my take is: Harry still loves her; she doesn't love him. The original antagonist has switched places, and Harry is the more sympathetic character. Just another example of how JM's music and lyrics keep giving me something new to think about and appreciate as time goes by. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 17:13:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re:songs about women and/or men; HOSL Harry's House has really captivated me for the last year or so, and so I am really enjoying reading your takes on it Kate and Bruce. In addition to being indoctrinated with ideas about materialism, I think they are also trapped by traditional roles as husband (businessman, bread-winner) and wife (house and garden). I'm curious what you or anyone else thinks of Centerpiece - does it add to the story for you? Do you see the transition as disjointed or appropriate. Musically speaking, I wish it wasn't there - but I do love the effects Joni uses to move in and out of Centerpiece. gives it a real sense it's a flashing backwards in time. Maybe this it's all kind of obvious, but I've always wondered what lead Joni to add that section - breaking up the flow of Harry's House. Jenny Kate Cox wrote: Bruce wrote: >Harry's House seems now to me to >be, poignantly, about Harry. I remember when I first knew and loved the song >I felt, in accordance with the times, that it was about a woman who had been >made an object by an ambitious, corporate-success-hungry husband -- >"nothings's any good" because he has essentially abandoned her, left to >choose wallpaper instead of allowing her to be self-actuated. >Now I hear it as something very different -- about a woman who got who she >wanted but is still not satisfied, while her husband does what he needs to >do to provide her with what she wants. >Harry is still smitten (Centerpiece) by a woman who keeps reeling him in by >his fond memories and her complaints. Nothing's any good. >Joni has always treated men and women with the same no-bullshit eye. I really agree with you here Bruce! I have thought a lot about Harry's House, and like you my perspectives have changed. My Dad warned me that it was a very disturbing song, and my take on it was always pretty much the same as yours: that Harry is trapped by a woman's body, greed and need for him. I was very surprised, when I recently read a biography of Joni called 'Shadows and Light', that the author perceived it as the other way round. She called Harry's wife 'a trophy wife' who had seen through Harry's attempts to trap her with material belongings, and had told him where to go: "To tell him like she did today, just what he could do with Harry's house and Harry's take home pay". You say,"Joni has always treated men and women with the same no-bullshit eye". You're absolutely right, she makes it clear to us that both Harry and his wife are full of bullshit: "Battalions of paper-minded males, talking commodities and sales, while at home their paper wives and their paper kids paper the walls to keep their gut reactions hid". She is dealing with a couple who have both been indoctrinated by a lust for material affluence and a tendency to mistake people for their monetary value or superficial appearance: "Skinny black models with raving curls and beauty-parlour blondes with credit card eyes". Moreover, both of them are slipping into a profound unawareness of the reality of their lives: "She is lost in house and garden, he's caught up in chief of staff". We wonder if Harry and his wife, once upon a time, loved each other. But then, as you say, Joni kicks us into awareness with, "Shining hair and shining skin, shining as she reeled him in". Yet Harry, I think, does believe he was once in love, or at least infatuated: "He drifts off into the memory of the way she looked in school, with her body oiled and shining at the public swimming pool". I sympathise with Harry because he still has his memories of something more warm and vital than pursuit of wealth. I also feel he has some sense of the moving poetry of life (a bit like A Strange Boy) and even perhaps some vague ideas about the insignificance of man inside the machine: "People thirty storeys down look like coloured currants in the street/ A helicopter lands on a Pan-Am roof like a dragonfly on a tomb". Yet we know Harry is trapped and helpless right from the start, "Caught up at the lights in the fishnet windows of Bloomingdales, watching those high-fashion girls". But what is he trapped by? Is it JUST women, JUST sex, JUST money, JUST material belongings? I would argue that it may masquerade in those sophisticated guises, but that at its root it is desperate, desperate need. On the surface his wife may view him as a trophy, as a sign of her own worth, but underneath that she desperately needs him because nothing in her life is worthwhile without him. "God I sure am sick of that sofa...I said get down off of there...When you coming home Harry? Nothing's any good!". She is, at some level, aware of the meaninglessness and emptiness of her life. He is warmth, he is a heartbeat, he is something alive and vibrant amidst the thick choking blankness of her belongings. Well, there I go again! I have to say this really is an opinion in transition, as my personal feelings and ideas about human beings' needs for each other are currently undergoing some upheavals! Oh, and talking of HOSL, Colin wrote: >It wa smy first Joni album ever bought on the strenght of having hear The >Jungle Line on the radio. Now, 29 years alter, it still sounds so good. Her >voice in good form. I ca imagine th shock this album must have caused her fans >as it was so different form her previous works. One cannot blame some of them >for not going on with Joni. As it was my first album, i ahd nothing to go ona >nd later when i did have them all, i liked her constant chaning. It was my 2nd Joni album after Hejira. I thought it was absolutely phenomenal, a masterpiece of social commentary at the same time as making me feel I was sharing a smoky intimacy with a cynical yet romantic genius at the height of her mastery of music... I was so suprised when I started reading articles and fans' views on the Joni Mitchell and jmdl websites, reading about people who saw it as a betrayal, or as empty and pretentious. But I know I can't imagine how they felt when it was new, and raw, and in its temporal context. So, did anyone buy HOSL when it first came out? What did you think? Sorry this is such a long post! Love Kate C - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stay in touch better and keep protected online with MSNs NEW all-in-one Premium Services. Find out more here. Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 18:03:45 -0700 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: Hejira, now Joni & her Mum Colin>Kate's point about learning/seeing where the parents got their shit from-doesn't make a great deal of difference. It can make it worse-make it more incomprehensible.< It made a difference to me or I wouldn't have said it. It isn't some theory I made up, its something I found helpful. It may not work for everyone but that doesn't mean it might not for some. Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 21:20:04 EDT From: Smurfycopy@aol.com Subject: Re: songs about women and/or men; HOSL, Hejira Doug writes: << I felt she had traded in her soul for style. I finally bought Hejira on CD about a year ago but it doesn't do anything for me. >> Three or four years ago I would have agreed with you completely, Doug. I was the ultimate "Blue" fan. But I listened to "Hejira" again a few years ago, after being on this list for a year or so, and even though I'll probably never be a big jazz fan, I think "Hejira" is among humanity's greatest accomplishments. And I am not saying that for a laugh. What's more, I would argue that Joni's most *soulful* writing is on "Hejira." So, as someone who knows what Joni is capable of . . . please, don't give up yet! "Hejira" is simply an amazing work of art. - --Smurf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 22:31:20 -0400 From: Doug Boudreau Subject: re:Hejira, now Joni & her Mum Here Here, Colin, very well put. Wow, this is my very first post on JMDL. Reading your post hit me. I totally agree. Anyway, hi everyone, I'm Doug and am also a huge Joni fan. Another thing I've been meaning to ask is about this BBC program I saw a few years back(on CMT of all places),Songs of the Songwriters ??? or something like that. Has anyone else seen this show before?? Each show was a half hour I think and I just caught the end of Joni's episode. I heard there was one on Neil Young,James Tayler, and lord knows who else. I was wondering what her songlist was for that show. I'm sure some of you has seen it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 22:39:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: re:Hejira, now Joni & her Mum --- Doug Boudreau wrote: > Here Here, Colin, very well put. Wow, this is my > very first post on > JMDL. Reading your post hit me. I totally agree. > Anyway, hi everyone, > I'm Doug and am also a huge Joni fan. > Hey, Doug - welcome to the jmdl. When did you become a Joni fan? ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 15:50:19 +1200 From: "hell" Subject: Re: Re:songs about women and/or men; HOSL Jenny wrote: > I'm curious what you or anyone else thinks of Centerpiece - > does it add to the story for you? Do you see the transition > as disjointed or appropriate. > > Musically speaking, I wish it wasn't there - but I do love the > effects Joni uses to move in and out of Centerpiece. gives > it a real sense it's a flashing backwards in time. Maybe this > it's all kind of obvious, but I've always wondered what lead > Joni to add that section - breaking up the flow of Harry's House. Some weeks/months ago, I looked at HOSL and tried to analyse what each song meant (to me, at least). Here's what I said about Harry's House/Centrepiece: Again, it's the bored, frustrated housewife in DITS. But this time both husband and wife are feeling the same feeling of being trapped. He's off on the road with his boring job, staying in hotels with other men doing the same thing. They all have a wife and 2.5 kids at home, but they're getting their thrills watching the models in Bloomingdales (either real or mannequins), while she's at home looking after the kids, house and garden. But he's wistfully remembering her back when they first met, when she was young and tanned. Back then, she was opposed to the suburban lifestyle, but like many of her peers, ended up in the very situation she despised when she was young. I'm going to change my mind now, and remove that last sentence, since I hadn't really considered Centrepiece when I wrote the above analysis (interestingly, those lyrics don't appear on the JMDL site, so I probably forgot they were there)! I think "Harry" is remembering their early days, when his prospects for the future were a little more optimistic. It seems to me that the inclusion of Centrepiece is to illustrate what he thought married life would be like, rather than the stale, unexciting existence he's now trapped in. I think Joni uses this brilliantly to - quite dramatically - counter what the rest of the song is saying. Here's this bleak existence, but "this", ie. Centrepiece, is what he thought marriage would be like. Then, rather than ending the song on that positive note, she goes straight back into Harry's House and continues the description of the "pool-side goddess", who - rather than being his Centrepiece - has become something quite different! I like to think of the song as a little "mind movie". I can see this guy going from hotel to hotel, sitting in dark, dreary bars with other bored middle-aged men, and then in the middle of some boring sales meeting, he starts day-dreaming about how his wife looked in her younger days, contrasted with what she's become. It would make a great music video! I'd also love to know what inspired this song. Did she know "Harry"? Or did she see some lonely-looking salesman, and just make up a song about him? Joni really is brilliant - how many other artist's lyrics really require or evoke the kind of analysis that happens here! Hell - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - a WHOLE NEW EXPERIENCE! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 02:24:07 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: May 13 On May 13 the following articles were published: 1972: "Joni Overcomes Disaster Threat" - Sounds (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=343 1972: "Priestess Joni" - Melody Maker (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=181 1988: "A Witness to Troubled Times" - Associated Press (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1139 1998: "Here Come the Women, Pens at the Ready" - Edmonton Sun (Biography, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=229 1998: "Triple Bill Thrill" - Edmonton Sun (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=102 2000: "Joni Mitchell Comes Home Again" - CheckOut.com (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=542 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #134 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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