From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #109 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, April 19 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 109 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Next marketing gimmick for Joni ["mike pritchard" ] vote for nobody ["mike pritchard" ] RE:"Moon At The Window" and cocaine [Nuriel Tobias ] RE: Nuriel, male or... ["patrick leader" ] Re: Next marketing gimmick for Joni [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE:"Moon At The Window" and cocaine [Lori Fye ] Joni's music and "space" [Lori Fye ] Re: Question regarding "Moon at the Window" ["mia ortlieb" ] Re: Question regarding "Moon at the Window" [Lori Fye ] Re: i love this list/ off topic [Catherine McKay ] RE:"Moon At The Window" and cocaine [Nuriel Tobias ] Joni loves me songs:) [Nuriel Tobias ] Re:WOHAM [PassScribe@aol.com] Re: Joni loves me songs:) [Lori Fye ] Re: Connecting the Dots - and Trying out new songs in concert [Bobsart48@] RE: Connecting the Dots - and Trying out new songs in concert ["Lama, Jim] Today's Library Links: April 19 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 12:47:34 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Next marketing gimmick for Joni >>In regards to DED & CMIARS, Joni's really painted herself in a corner. She has given the impression that she was the guiding hand behind all of this glossy/techno production, although she has hinted that she wasn't and said that sometimes she doesn't think of them as 'her' projects. It would almost seem a contradiction for her to go back and do it "right".<< Hi Bob, I don't think this will/would be problem for Joni. You make good use of 'painterly' metaphors in your comments and, with your permission, I will continue in that mode. You may recall Jane Fonda in the film 'Julia' with Jason Robards where there is a voiceover from 'Lillian Hellman' in which she uses the word 'pentimento', literally the emergence, or presence, of earlier images etc which have been painted over or covered up. The word, of course, derives from the verb to 'repent', and I think Joni could release an 'unplugged' abbreviated version of these two (personally I would not touch CMIARS but concentrate on DED and WTRF) and call it 'pentimento'. As Hellman might say, the new version is totally justifiable because the artist has not repented, but has simply 'changed her mind'. mike in barcelona NP Emmylou - Wrecking Ball ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 12:51:06 +0200 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: vote for nobody Subject: Re: NJC W's Press conference - now why i decided not to vote Barcelona graffito - Nobody will give you a job. Nobody will give you free beer. Nobody will make the streets safe. You decision is clear - vote for Nobody. mike in barcelona NP (in Nuriel's honour) This Mortal Coil - Blood ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 05:12:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: RE:"Moon At The Window" and cocaine MINGSDANCE@aol.com wrote: "I always thought she was referring to the spoon in one of those dark cocaine bottles that the top had a spoon on. During her coke days I'm sure she would stir up old memories of the past, and you don't stop until the bottles empty." What? "her coke days"? Do you mean Joni was addicted to cocaine? Nuriel Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:31:52 -0400 From: "patrick leader" Subject: RE: Nuriel, male or... dear nuri: i did not mean to cause pain or give offense, and i apologize if i did either. i was truly curious, and i did not bring up that post lightly or casually. i received several posts directly that also expressed curiosity. however, i will not mention it again. i think the members of this list (and i include myself) are a great bunch of folks, yet all too human and prone to error. but, mostly, decent, and i include you and me in that definition. i hope that is of some comfort. patrick "the child is so sweet, and the girls are so rapturous. isn't it lovely how artists can capture us?" 'children and art', from sondheim's 'sunday in the park with george' >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of >Nuriel Tobias >Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2004 11:54 PM >To: joni@smoe.org >Subject: RE: Nuriel, male or... > > >Thank you for reminding me of the darkest hour in my life, >Patrick. How very kind and thoughtful of you. After i read your >post i tried to sleep, but all that nightmare came back to me, and >so, with barely opened eyes, i'm writing this. >Les - i would thank you very much if you could delete my first >post to the JMDL, i'm so tired of being hunted by it. > >Love, > >Nuri > >patrick leader wrote: >dear nuriel: >i'm posting, below, what i think was the first post you (or someone named >ada wittenberger, but signing herself nuriel) sent to the list. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:42:34 EDT From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Next marketing gimmick for Joni Thanks for your thoughts Mike, and don't get me wrong - I would have loved for Joni to revisit, re-record, reproduce some of that 80's stuff instead of the path she chose. She overwhelmed her now-fragile singing voice with an orchestra instead of letting it flourish in a more intimate atmosphere. Luckily I do have some "80's unplugged" stuff from Joni that she did during interviews, concerts, etc. Plus, just yesterday I received a wonderful CD from an Italian jazz guitarist who plays EIGHT songs from WTRF and it also features a wonderful female vocalist. So I feel like I've just gotten WTRF unplugged! The guy really magnifies the jazz side of these songs whereas Joni and Klein's production emphasized the rock side. And yes, these tracks will be making their way into the JMDL network. A BIG thanks to the amazing Monica in Holland for turning this up. Another problem with Joni going back is the whole "paint a starry night again, man" thing. BUT, that statement was 30 years ago - God knows I'd hate for folks to hold my feet to the fire in terms of what I said in 1974! Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:45:40 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: RE:"Moon At The Window" and cocaine Nuriel, perhaps a bit alarmed, wrote: > What? "her coke days"? Do you mean Joni was addicted to cocaine? I don't think Joni was addicted to cocaine, but she admits to using coke and that at times it influenced her writing -- though probably mostly in a manic, up-all-night sort of way. I believe her period of using coke was pretty short-lived. Here are Joni's words about cocaine and record-making, at least at the time of this interview: " What step in the music making process is most likely to prove the undoing of a record? "Cocaine. There are entire albums that would probably be different if that drug didn't exist. Cocaine seals off the heart and creates a very intellectual mood. It takes all your energy out of your spine and sends it right up to your brain." The rest of the article/interview can be accessed here: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=211 Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 08:54:03 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Joni's music and "space" Em wrote about DJRD on April 7: > ok this to me is about moving through space more than keeping time. And just now I read, in the article I mentioned in my previous post, http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=211: The sunny childhood of Mitchell's career culminated in 1971 with 'Blue', considered by many to be her finest work. Although she scored three hit singles with her 1974 release 'Court And Spark', she'd already begun to tinker with the lucrative song formula she'd perfected and was edging out of the glaring pop spotlight and into the world of Jazz. Her music began to stretch out and took on more air and space. Structurally her albums evolved from being collections of songs, into fluid, interwoven symphonic compositions with a cinematic feel; ethereal music embellished with ethnic rhythms and flourishes of jazz, floating around a loosely sketched story line. - - Just wanted share that on this Sunny Sunday ... now it's off to the office ... Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:22:57 -0500 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: Re: Question regarding "Moon at the Window" I guess it does make more sense that the "spoon and the glass" could be some sort of medicinal concoction. But, the thought of a dark cocaine bottle with a built-in spoon (which I've never seen before) actually depresses me. Was Joni really like this at one point? To escape the depression, I'm going to act like an even bigger dunce and go out on a limb to say that the "glass" is actually the "window," and I'll tie the "spoon" to the "moon" by saying "the cow jumped over the moon....and the dish ran away with the spoon" ! :) Mia _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee. Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:34:19 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Joni's music and "space" - and then So I'm on my way out the door to ruin a perfectly beautiful and sunny Sunday by going to the office and I decide I'll grab DJRD out of the CD player to take with me to the office ... We have one of those players that holds 400 discs, and I *thought* I'd chosen DJRD when I hit eject. But when I popped the disc into the car's player, I begin hearing people sing "Happy Birthday" to Charles Mingus. Hm. I was a little disturbed because I'd been anticipating "Cotton Avenue," but then I figured that it least serves to remind me to call my cousin whose birthday is today (althought she's 57 and not 54 or 53). Now I'm at work and am continuing to play Mingus and ... oh you know how it goes, 'tis another bit of synchronicity ... talk about SPACE AND AIR!! Great stuff, I should play it more often. Lori NP: "Sweet Sucker Dance" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:31:12 -0700 From: Rick Subject: Diana Krall-Joni's other long-lost daughter I also thought of calling this post "The Travelogue That Joni Should Have Made Or Would Have Made If She Had Someone To Give Her Good Advice." But anyway, this post is in praise of the new Diana Krall cd "The Woman In The Other Room." Besides being Krall's best album to date (IMO), what is most striking about her performance is that she often sounds startlingly like Joni does now but with fewer ragged edges. The range and tone of Krall's voice, her inflections and phrasing, every once in a while come together to make one think that it's Joni singing bluesy-jazz in front of a great small band. Besides covering Black Crow, Krall uses a few other note combinations in other songs which leads me to think she listened to Hejira and Don Juan a lot before or during the recording of this album. The song "Departure Bay" seems very Joni-influenced: biographical, but in an obscure way; Joni-like phrasing on the piano; esoteric geographical references; word-pictures designed to expand in your mind. Now please note that I am not calling Diana Krall the new Joni Mitchell, just saying what I hear, okay? Open for comments, Rick Here's a link to Diana singing A Case Of You from her Live In Paris DVD (Not very Joni-ish but very good: http://www.dianakrall.com/media.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:50:50 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Question regarding "Moon at the Window" > I guess it does make more sense that the "spoon and the glass" could be some > sort of medicinal concoction. But, the thought of a dark cocaine bottle > with a built-in spoon (which I've never seen before) actually depresses me. > Was Joni really like this at one point? I don't think she was. Beyond that, though, I don't see this particular stanza as autobiographical. It seems to me that Joni is wishing Betsy "heart" and is empathizing with Betsy's battles -- with love? with old addictions? -- and understands that people often try to medicate the pain (and demons) away. Very simply, I see "spoon" as a metaphor for cocaine, and "glass" as a metaphor for booze. I wish her heart I know these battles Deep in the dark When the spooks of memories rattle Ghosts of the future Phantoms of the past Rattle rattle rattle In the spoon and the glass Great catch on the reference to Marley, Bob! (LOL ... I just made myself giggle.) Lori, having a hard time getting into the work mode NP: "Goodbye Porkpie Hat" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 13:34:19 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Next marketing gimmick for Joni Bob wrote: > She's diluted her catalogue enough with BSN & T'log as it is. I just don't get that. If ever there was a dilution of Joni's catalogue, it came about when Hits was released. (I won't say the same about Misses because most of the songs on that disc are better, imo.) Speaking of marketing gimmicks, pasting "Urge For Going" onto Hits seemed like a ploy to entice fans who already owned everything else to buy the disc. Great song, but putting it on Hits felt like a slap in my face for some reason -- maybe because it hadn't been a true "hit" for Joni and adding it to the disc WAS just a gimmick. (In fact, I'm not sure I would've bought Hits or Misses, but my then-girlfriend gave them to me for my birthday.) When Joni performed "Comes Love" at A Day In The Garden (at Yasgur's Farm) in 1998, I nearly experienced something similary to the title of the song. ; ) I thought to myself, "Joni can really sing jazz!!" (Reports on the concert can be read here: http://www.jonimitchell.com/OnTheRoadWoodstock98.html) I could see from that performance that Joni was heading in an even jazzier direction, and I was actually hoping that she planned to explore more jazz covers. I was pleased when she released BSN. I don't play the album often enough, but I always enjoy it when I do. Plus, her performance on the BSN tour was nothing short of great, imo. As for Travelogue, the more I listen to it, the more I *hear* it. Joni did a retrospective of her own career, the way she wanted those songs to be heard one last time. Maybe they're not the way *we* would have liked them to be done, but they were her songs to do and she chose to do them the way she did, with an orchestra and a whole lotta production. She's put those songs to bed, put her whole singing career to rest. She said as much when she released the album. So the more I *hear* Travelogue's tracks, the deeper their meaning becomes for me. They pluck my heart strings, not always in the way I'd like them to be plucked, but boy do I ever FEEL what she's singing. I think she actually ENRICHED the songs this last time around. No complaints here, and no evidence of dilution in my book. Lori NP: "Impossible Dreamer" from Misses ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:13:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: i love this list/ off topic --- Leslie Neumann wrote: > i do. i really do. everytime i read it, i see alot > of thought provoking > people whom i can relate to in artistic and > philosophic matters. folks are > relaxed, freer to speak their minds openly. and > happily, not snapping and > snipeing back and forth at each other about every > idiosyncracy ( every > particle of difference...) Coexistance lives inside > here, despite the outer > world's current ride in a handbasket. Those cannibals of shuck and jive (that) eat a working girl ... alive Pass like the summer I'm a wild seed again Let the wind carry me. A Joni quote for every occasion. Stay in touch, Les. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:14:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: RE:"Moon At The Window" and cocaine Lori Fye wrote: Nuriel, perhaps a bit alarmed, wrote: > What? "her coke days"? Do you mean Joni was addicted to cocaine? I wasn't a bit alarmed, i was very alarmed. "I don't think Joni was addicted to cocaine, but she admits to using coke and that at times it influenced her writing -- though probably mostly in a manic, up-all-night sort of way. I believe her period of using coke was pretty short-lived. Here are Joni's words about cocaine and record-making, at least at the time of this interview: " What step in the music making process is most likely to prove the undoing of a record? "Cocaine. There are entire albums that would probably be different if that drug didn't exist. Cocaine seals off the heart and creates a very intellectual mood. It takes all your energy out of your spine and sends it right up to your brain." Joni, shalom, such a "cute" answer, luv it, but just wanted to say you forget to mention the fact that it's poison, and that even human beings, not only albums, would probably be different if that drug didn't exist. Nuriel The rest of the article/interview can be accessed here: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=211 Lori Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:54:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Nuriel Tobias Subject: Joni loves me songs:) (I could only ask this in a simplified way) What song makes you feel that Joni loves you? Mine was always Conversation. I always felt like i'm the guy she's flirting with, wants to free, that i'm the "he" who "knows that's what he'll find". When i was a child, whenever the song was playing, once it got to it's ending, the flute part and her going "Too-too-too, too-too-too-tooroo-too-too", i used do dance all around my room, clapping my hands, as if it was the first day of spring. I felt real waves of love flowing from the stereo. Love to hear your 'Joni loves me' song/s. Nuriel Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 21:55:02 EDT From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: Re:WOHAM << From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: Woman of Heart and Mind (no PC, hooray) A part two would be lovely! However, I have to admit, given the time restraints on the film, I'm glad the producers put more emphasis on the pre-Blue Joni. For me, this film is more about, who is Joni, what has shaped her, and how has she arrived? If the film was just about her accomplishments only, well then, yes the producers have failed miserably. After Blue, Joni's career could be followed more closely as she was famous and already in the public eye. But the pre-Blue period has always been somewhat of a mystery to me. It almost has a magical, fairy-tale like quality. I want to know what makes Joni tick, and WOHAM has certainly revealed this for me. Mia >> Hi, Mia, There have been lots of thoughts on what was missing from WOHAM but I think you make a good point; it's a biography, not a comprehensive "sampler". Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 20:10:26 -0700 From: Lori Fye Subject: Re: Joni loves me songs:) Nuriel wants to know: > What song makes you feel that Joni loves you? Harry's House/Centerpiece, where, after ... He drifts off into the memory Of the way she looked in school With her body oiled and shining At the public swimming pool ... ... I just KNOW Joni is singing, "Lori Lori Lori Lori ..." ; ) Lori ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:26:31 EDT From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Connecting the Dots - and Trying out new songs in concert Last week, lama wrote "Some time in May 67 Joni was at The Other Side in Fayetteville, NC USA, according to Simon. She met that unknown upstart, James Taylor, in March 1969. " I did not know that - I had imagined their meeting to have been later than that, given the 'romance' timeline I have in my head (though I realized that "meeting" and "romance" are not synonymous). Jim's post reminded me once again of the Joni/James BBC concert. Since that was in late 1970, we have another example of Joni trying out new material on her audience (in this case, songs from Blue - Carey, California, River, My Old Man, A case of You. Although she makes no references to these being new, obviously their performance here pre-dated the release of Blue, so for most if not all of that audience, this was new material. Joni had played unfinished versions of All I Want and My Old Man (and more finished versions of other songs from Blue) during her Pink Dress BBC concert earlier that year. Not just "new", but "before new". That penchant was again front and center when I saw her at Carnegie Hall in February, 1972, some 9 months before the release of FTR. She performed finished and perfected versions of a half dozen songs from FTR, and seemed nearly giddy with the excitement of doing new material for her fans. Some of it was pretty bold, in the sense that the songs took me several listenings to warm up to and appreciate (Lesson in Survival, The Banquet, Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire). The others were perhaps a bit more accessible on first listen (Electricity, You Turn Me On (I'm a Radio), and For the Roses), but I found it brave (or was it foolhardy, or simply self indulgent ?) of her to perform for an audience that was unfamiliar with the material. I have the impression that artists often play material from their latest releases in concert - but usually after their release. On the scale of venue in which Joni was performing (TV / Carnegie Hall / Paris Theatre) my perception is that Joni's typical "art first, commerce second" approach in this area was relatively rare. Do you all agree ? Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 01:04:35 -0400 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: RE: Connecting the Dots - and Trying out new songs in concert Q from Bob S: "I found it brave (or was it foolhardy, or simply self indulgent ?) of her to perform for an audience that was unfamiliar with the material.My perception is that Joni's typical "art first, commerce second" approach in this area was relatively rare. Do you all agree ?" A: "Is Joan courageous? Absolutely. Yes, her resolve is bolstered by her ability, her talent, to always deliver the goods, to follow through. Never expect her to back away from a goal. She will never waver. Is she foolhardy? Not hardly. Perhaps Charles Mingus said it best when he said, 'She is nervy.' " Lama, possibly channeling for John Ashcroft? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 02:15:00 -0400 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: April 19 On April 19 the following article was published: 1999: "Making up for Lost Time" - Los Angeles Times (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=556 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #109 ********************************* ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)