From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #72 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Sunday, March 14 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 072 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni on the dulcimer ["mike pritchard" ] Re: joni's lowest note? ["William" ] Re: joni's lowest note? [Catherine McKay ] Where 'di go'? ["William" ] Re: John Guerin and Joni photo ["michael o'malley" ] re: Shadows and Light ["mia ortlieb" ] RE: Rickie Lee Jones and Joni [] Re: S&L and Borderline - Little Joni Content ? [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: dulcimer [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Woman of Heart and Mind [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: Woman of Heart and Mind [Randy Remote ] Re: McLuhan (SJC) [Randy Remote ] Re: Shadows and Light [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Shadows and Light [Catherine McKay ] Re: Shadows and Light [Emiliano ] RE: Shadows and Light ["Wally Kairuz" ] Fw: Shadows and Light (for aol, non-mac users) [Emiliano ] Dulcimer (medium Joni Content) ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Shadows and Light ["mia ortlieb" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 10:22:44 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Joni on the dulcimer Debi said >>I saw her in 1979 at the Mann Music Center and yes she played the dulcimer. I saw her again in 1883, once at the Mann Music Center << Ah yes, at the memorial service for Karl Marx's death. I remember it well. mike in barcelona (just kidding Debi) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:35:24 -0000 From: "William" Subject: Re: joni's lowest note? I've always thought one of Joni's lowest notes was one that she didn't actually sing / hit, if that makes any sense - mmm probably not. On Turbulent Indigo, when she reaches 'Living in Turbulent In...' she doesn't vocalise the 'digo' part but somehow I hear the melody dive way down in my head; almost like she was asking the listeners to finish off that line themselves. WtS xxx ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 06:50:36 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: joni's lowest note? --- William wrote: > I've always thought one of Joni's lowest notes was > one that she didn't > actually sing / hit, if that makes any sense - mmm > probably not. On > Turbulent Indigo, when she reaches 'Living in > Turbulent In...' she doesn't > vocalise the 'digo' part but somehow I hear the > melody dive way down in my > head; almost like she was asking the listeners to > finish off that line > themselves. > WtS She doesn't sing it? Err, what am I hearing then? ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 12:11:31 -0000 From: "William" Subject: Where 'di go'? Good Lord! Joni does it again. Surprising me all the time. Just had to listen again [Turbulent Indigo] twiddling with the sounds and I do believe I heard it for the first time. Sounds like she sings it very quickly and all the time I've been hearing it stretched out and delving down to depths inaudible - must get my ears cleaned out. W ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 12:05:31 -0500 From: "michael o'malley" Subject: Re: John Guerin and Joni photo Thanks again, Janine, for this second link - another great photo score ! http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=111 Interesting - I had always heard that Joni's eyes were blue, but the interviewer here clearly describes them as being green. I've noticed on TV images that her eyes are fairly dark, not light. I suspect they are, in fact, hazel - mutable and undefinable, just like our Joni! Michael in Quebec ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:08:09 +0000 From: "Timothy Spong" Subject: McLuhan (SJC) On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, at 00:15:36 -0500, "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote (on Subject: Joni: Our Lady Of Duality, a link to an essay): Yo, It's been a long while since I posted this link. After the "Both Sides Now" tour, I wrote about the fact that Joni's been constantly evolving. It was timely because some listeners went to the BSN tour expecting Joni to come out and do the hits with an orchestra. Amazingly, they expected to see her play the dulcimer and sing "California" in her soprano voice just like she did when they were college kids. Anyway, I kinda went "off" about expression and growth in an essay called "Our Lady Of Duality". http://www.jonimitchell.com/Duality.html ... and when you go to the essay, you read, inter alia, that "McLuhan said 'the medium is the message.' " Actually, this is a common misquote. What Marshall McLuhan said was, "The medium is the massage." Tim Spong Dover, Del., U.S.A. _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:36:15 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: Shadows and Light <> Speaking of Shadows and Light.....has anyone ever read Plato's "The Allegory of the Cave" (from The Republic VII)? Maybe this has been mentioned previously on the list, but The Allegory also has themes of "shadows and light," "justice vs. injustice," "slavery vs. freedom," "the governors vs. the governed," "the educated vs. the uneducated," "perception vs. misperception," and "divine element in the virtue of wisdom." I am convinced that Joni's "Shadow and Light" is based on "The Allegory of the Cave." Here is a striking example from Joni's lyrics: Suntans in reservation dining rooms Pale miners in their lantern rays The pale miners are obviously those who live within the shadows of Plato's cave, and the Suntans are obviously those who have emerged out of Plato's cave into the sunlight as either the educated class, elite class, ruling class, or oppressing class. Here is a link to "The Allegory of the Cave" for anyone that might be interested: http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:pwcwsHfunvoJ:www.historyguide.org/intellect/allegory.html+%22The+Allegory+of+the+Cave%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 Mia _________________________________________________________________ Create a Job Alert on MSN Careers and enter for a chance to win $1000! http://msn.careerbuilder.com/promo/kaday.htm?siteid=CBMSN_1K&sc_extcmp=JS_JASweep_MSNHotm2 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:42:45 -0600 From: Subject: RE: Rickie Lee Jones and Joni Wally wrote: "over the years, joni has always been very rude and even cruel when she referred to other musicians. some of them are excellent artists: suzanne vega, for example. she dissed everyone, except for mozart, schubert, nyro, billie holiday and edith piaff -- all of whom she considered her "peers". she even referred to other musicians as the "salieris" needed to recognize her "mozart". if rickie or suzanne or madonna didn't say, i will say it: i think joni mitchell is full of shit. she's a genius, she changed my life, she created some of the most enduring art in history, but she is FOS, from head to toes. wally" Wally, these are harsh words, and you'll probably catch no small amount of flak for them. But I've got to say that I agree with the gist of what you said, in this and in your later post (which mentioned Joni as now coming across as "dour" in interviews, among other things). Joni IS a genius, and she has contributed immeasurably to my life. What follows is rooted in a deep appreciation for her many gifts. That said, I notice that I have much, much less patience than I used to for her attitude toward other musicians and perceived "villains" in her career trajectory, such as record companies and radio stations, as I've grown older. I've also noticed that the musicians for whom I've had the most respect and affection in recent years (not to mentions the ones whose music can be found most often in my CD player) are those with an open, collaborative attitude toward other musicians, as a general rule, and also, those with a "live and let live" philosophy about their careers and artistic choices. I feel for Joni, in that, after all she has given us, she still seems so unhappy about so much. And I hope that, contrary to what we might assume from reading bits and pieces of interviews, that she has indeed found peace. But I do think that, after a certain point, there is a time to stop dwelling on all the trifling and not-so-trifling negative points from the past, and either take pride in what you HAVE accomplished. . . or move on to something else. Just my two cents. Mary. Going back to lurkdom. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 12:48:20 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: S&L and Borderline - Little Joni Content ? Bob Muller wrote: {"Compelled by prescribed standards Or some ideals we fight For wrong wrong and right" It just seems to encapsulate why people (including myself) are driven to do things & make choices, often not using any logic other than that which has previously existed. I don't know if anybody else can relate to that or if that lyric stands out for anyone else but it's always seemed to have such a profound ring of truth to me.} I tend to share your view here, Bob, and confess to my failures, too, in this regard - though it is a slow process to invent the wheel each time, and counter-productive - if not dangerous - to throw the baby out with the bath water. First, the Joni content. I think this song segues 20 years later into Borderline. That song has been called trite by some critics. And I concede that there is a fine line between the profound and the banal. But the older I get, the closer I get to Joni's view as expressed in Borderline (that right and wrong so often lie so close to that borderline, that we need to collectively show so much more respect for one another becuase of that likelihood). Now the mostly NJC part. My view is colored by my own personal anecdotal experience. As I child, I was brainwashed into beliefs of right and wrong - in my case, most painfully via religious education. In my late adolescence/early adulthood, I discarded those shackles, but was left indecisive. What did I really know, after all ? What could I really know, after all ? I had not really lived very much. I really did not know life at all. That genuine indecisiveness is unnerving to many, IMO, who long to have answers settled, right and wrong, black and white, darkness and light. In the beginning was the Word, for example. And that longing for quick and simple resolution of issues of right and wrong - - many of which are too profound to have such simple resolution - trends powerfully, almost magnetically, to polarization, which - in a vicious circle - reinforces itself. The worst - the most polarized - seem to have the most passion - and often, it seems, become the leaders and get their polarizing voices heard. And thereby the contempt spreads not merely to those at the other poles, but to those (still far away) in the middle. Some of those in the middle are indeed merely still indecisive. But others have have developed a conviction (is it wisdom ? who knows, but it is no longer indecisiveness for them) that the "truth" we seek lies somewhere near the center. This may come after considerable contemplation and logic such as that to which Bob M alludes above as being rare (and perhaps even after having for a time joined the ranks of those in one or both poles - waffled, as it were, on the same issue). I consider myself a centrist - alienated from the poles - which oddly it seems these days form a majority. Defying the logical shape of the bell curve, which suggests that the vast majority should be in the center, with only a handful at the poles. Or is it that the majority do lie in the center, but lack the passion and intensity to bring their energy to the task of neutralizing the passion-overweighted polarity ? Between Borderline and Slouching ("The best lack conviction, given some time to think. And the worst are full of passion without mercy" - a great line from Yeats, elegantly edited by Joni), I am convinced that Joni is inherently a centrist, too. Let's hope, or pray (or is there a better way for us to effectively act so) that the solutions to the problems come before the apocalypse. In some cases of issue and moment, situations arise for individuals and/or for groups and/or for nations) - usually after building in some unfair way - which, even if not new to the world, pose what appear to be fresh dilemmas for those presently affected. And, in some cases, the situations posed actually are new - if not in substance, then in form or in scope. At times, we may ask "how odd, how stupid, that the world continues to make the same mistakes, over and over". Is it possible, however, that we might find, by looking deeper, that they are not all "mistakes" after all ? But merely that once a situation has come to a boil, perhaps people take the same course as in the past because in a sort of collective wisdom there just is no better solution, so the imperfect best we can do is to let it run its course until the truth finds its place and justice creeps forward, ten steps at a time, with nine steps back ? There must be a better way, but how, if we embrace our places at the poles? Which takes us full circle back to Shadows and Light. There. Banality in quest of profundity. Life is for learning. Love and more unity to us all. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 13:51:32 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: dulcimer Debi wrote: "I saw her in 1979 at the Mann Music Center and yes she played the dulcimer. I saw her again in 1883, once at the Mann Music Center (near Philly, PA) and once at the Merriweather (near Washington DC) and both times she did play the dulicmer sooo, it has only been 20 years that she has played that baby out on the town. " I agree (not with the 1883 part, but with the 20 years part) :-) I saw her at Jones Beach in "1983" and she played A Case of You on the dulcimer. That said, 1983 hardly qualifies as recent Joni history. Like JT quipped (in his recent DVD) about the Frozen Man (who had died 100 years earlier before being recovered from the perma-frost) "I saw a picture of him, and he looked really good. He looked like he had been dead maybe 20 years, tops". Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 15:07:36 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Woman of Heart and Mind I went to the showing of the WOHAM film at the Jacob Burns Film Center in Westchester county NY on Wednesday night. After the film, Susan Lacy (Executive Director of the American Master series - - she is "Mrs. American Masters" - as well as producer, director, editor and writer of the WOHAM episode) participated in a Q&A session. Actor's studio type of format, with most of the questions coming from the audience after a few lead-in questions from the director of the Burns film center - a former colleague of Susan's from the early days of American Masters. I enjoyed it. Some points of note: 1. Susan's always loved Joni - no doubt part of her inspiration for doing this piece, but the artist has to qualify on the merits, too, which Joni does. Susan makes the call on who to do, and said that she has never been challenged on her selections. 2. Susan said - and reiterated - that Joni was "tough". Not much more than that on that particular matter by way of elaboration, at least to my ears. Audience left to read between the lines a bit, IMO. I think the idea is that Joni ain't no flower child, but we all knew that. In addition, I got the sense that Joni wanted Susan to take the film in a certain direction (or at least to insist that it not go in a different certain direction). Susan said that she suspected that Joni's biggest regret was that Joni had not gotten to make the film herself. 3. Did Joni like WOHAM ? Susan thinks so - Joni sent her flowers after the fact, anyway. 4. American Masters policy is not to show the artist advance footage prior to completion (showing ?) of the film. In this case, Joni begged, and Susan let her see 10 minutes in advance. Caveat - no smoking in the center. Joni agreed, and stuck to the 10 minute agreement without pressing for more. Not easy for Joni to do. Susan confirmed that "Joni's a big talker". One of the interviews lasted 7 hours, counting Joni's digressions and general raconteuring. 5. Susan had the germ for this AM idea - using modern media to capture the work of modern artists and memorializing them in that form - and tried to sell it to the media. One reaction - if this was such a good idea, someone would have done it already. Amazing, eh ? Anyway, the series started almost 20 years ago. Despite its critical acclaim - Emmies in 4 of last 5 years, etc. - and its very high TV ratings, it continues to have funding difficulties. Ironic. 6. Unlike the relatively cheesy A&E Biography snippets, American Masters costs a lot of money to make - budgets run over $1 million per feature, in most cases largely because of royalties. Susan is obviously committed to making good art, and said that there will be fewer episodes this year, in order to maintain top quality while staying within budget. 7. One coming up is a feature on Bob Dylan (another one she has been trying to get the artist to agree to for years - finally, the time has come). Martin Scorcese to direct. There is much more performance and outtake footage to draw from in Dylan's case, whereas in Joni's case, they had to work really hard to find what relatively little they could - which may have contributed to that piece being more "impressionistic" than most. Which was fine in a sense with Susan, since she wanted to do it that way, anyway, it being in keeping with Joni's impressionistic approach to her art. 8. Speaking of footage and sources, Simon Montgomery was also in the audience, and shared some of his insights, too. Susan was openly friendly toward Simon, and thanked and credited him for his significant contributions to her research in making the film. I had hoped to get to talk with her after the Q&A a bit, but she was re-connecting with Simon. Perhaps Simon will share some of his "inside" insights with us ? Whaddya say, Simon ? 9. She mentioned the Paul Simon feature as an interesting one to make - they actually went on tour with him (overseas, I believe) in the course of filming that episode. 10. The show was sold out, and as usual there were a couple of over-the-top fans who pleaded with Susan to deliver to Joni the message of how deeply she is loved, etc. (not that I would ever do that, of course :-) ) Disgusting, eh Wally ? (I'm only kidding, really). :-) ;-) :-) Anyway, I had a good time. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 13:28:11 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Woman of Heart and Mind Bobsart48@aol.com wrote: > 7. One coming up is a feature on Bob Dylan (another one she has been > trying to get the artist to agree to for years - finally, the time has come). > Martin Scorcese to direct. There's something to look forward to...thanks for the report, Bob, sounds like it was a fun event. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 13:34:27 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: McLuhan (SJC) Timothy Spong wrote: > ... and when you go to the essay, you read, inter alia, that "McLuhan said > 'the medium is the message.' " > > Actually, this is a common misquote. What Marshall McLuhan said was, "The > medium is the massage." That's right, and after all these years, I still have no idea what that means....the misquote makes more sense RR, in need of a massage ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:04:05 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Shadows and Light **I am convinced that Joni's "Shadow and Light" is based on "The Allegory of the Cave." ** That's a good catch Mia, and I'm willing to bet that you're right on. Joni certainly has read and studied the great philosophers and uses their thoughts in her work (Nietzsche's "Three Great Stimulants" is another example). Bob NP: Pearl Jam, "I Am Mine" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:54:00 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Shadows and Light --- SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: > **I am convinced that Joni's "Shadow and Light" is > based on "The Allegory of > the Cave." ** > > That's a good catch Mia, and I'm willing to bet that > you're right on. Joni > certainly has read and studied the great > philosophers and uses their thoughts in > her work (Nietzsche's "Three Great Stimulants" is > another example). > I wouldn't be terribly surprised either. Great idea, Mia. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:13:43 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Re: Shadows and Light Hi, Mia! Esta es mia! = that's mine! The Allegory of the cave! I've read it some twelve times each year since the '78. In fact, more times than I've heard S&L, must I confess (in fact, the orginial in THOSL is one of my many limitations) My guess is that is related, and opposed, to Plato's Cave... in other way. [...] > Speaking of Shadows and Light.....has anyone ever read Plato's "The Allegory > of the Cave" (from The Republic VII)? Maybe this has been mentioned > previously on the list, but The Allegory also has themes of "shadows and > light," "justice vs. injustice," "slavery vs. freedom," "the governors > vs. the governed," "the educated vs. the uneducated," "perception vs. > misperception," and "divine element in the virtue of wisdom." > > I am convinced that Joni's "Shadow and Light" is based on "The Allegory of > the Cave." Here is a striking example from Joni's lyrics: > > Suntans in reservation dining rooms > Pale miners in their lantern rays > > The pale miners are obviously those who live within the shadows of Plato's > cave, and the Suntans are obviously those who have emerged out of Plato's > cave into the sunlight as either the educated class, elite class, ruling > class, or oppressing class. [...] Well, of course Joni has read it, and left in her a profound influence. As in any person with Real Heart & Mind. This is maybe the must poignant text, IMO: one sees it being quoted constantly on papers (at least about the manipulation of knowdlege & information by governments, at least about our societies sitting front the tv light, ay): let me quote my fave statement : "they're like us, indeed". But let's try to clear things a little: Shadows & Light is reflecting a situation of disorder, of deep injustice between people, but that gets his balance from that constant fight and irreconciliable differences: that's the way it is: Joni states: she clearly knows how many times misunderstanding of life leads to evil; she clearly knows what's worth (like any real poet does). Fortunately the invocation (almost) at the end: "Man of Delight, Born Again, Born Again" saves, for me, the song. Plato: Plato isn't at all at ease, with the Cave: yes the book it's called "POLITEIA" but with this text is talking about the Education. One must try, make a hard effort and try to really understand things by him/herself. People who feels at ease letting others decide (or could we say: who sees 20 tv spots a day, and endures it) mustn't be heard in political questions. Please set this clear: yes Plato is in some ways the father of totalitarism (as stated Popper in his classic "The open society and its enemies"), but , his vision was one of love & harmony, as in some human but "religious" heaven: let me explain it briefly: Plato would have yelled at our goverments : he clearly states: the ones who decide and the ones who are soldiers/police aren't allowed *at all* to have any riches, any business, any family than the State. Imagine this for a minute: think how public nurseries would be in this society. Plus: it's the level of education (without regarding parents nor any heritage) that select men (and women, for first time in greek theory) for governement : mathematics, music and gymnastic are the cornerstone for entering in the people who doesn't produce material things. In other hand, Plato isn't a dualist: yes he describes two "worlds", two egoes (Body & Soul), two ways of knowdlege, but he only admits one: there's so huge an abyss in importance and reality between those levels of realm, of wo/man, of truth! Dualist is Zaratustra, not Plato. So, when Joni sings about the bronzed executives and the miners, she isn't refering to Plato's Cave: it's impossible. Plato don't trust democracy (he even here refers to Socrate's death, you know) but from his vision also comes libertarian's knowdlege with its central idea of the proper education, for everyone this time. Another night I'll inflict you another post about this and Nietzsche, and Nietzsche vs. Plato, too! Thanks for reading so far and... Have a Wonderful time! Emiliano NP: In France They Kiss On Main Street, Philadelphia, February 16, 1976 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:36:55 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Shadows and Light well, emiliano has said it much better than i ever could. i can't really find a connection between the allegory and s&l. the "shadows" and the "light" seem to be coexisting states in the song -- a ying yang thing. in the allegory, however, they are two different states of evolution. joni is making a pictorial reference, whereas plato is speaking about the shadows that we think are the real objects before we come out of the cave, see the sun and understand that these shadows were only the projections of the real objects outside. anyway, what i mean to say is that i agree with emiliano. wally > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de > Emiliano > Enviado el: Sabado, 13 de Marzo de 2004 10:14 p.m. > Para: mia ortlieb; JMDL > Asunto: Re: Shadows and Light > > > Hi, Mia! > Esta es mia! = that's mine! > > The Allegory of the cave! > I've read it some twelve times each year since the '78. In fact, > more times > than I've heard S&L, must I confess (in fact, the orginial in THOSL is one > of my many limitations) > My guess is that is related, and opposed, to Plato's Cave... in other way. > > [...] > > Speaking of Shadows and Light.....has anyone ever read Plato's "The > Allegory > > of the Cave" (from The Republic VII)? Maybe this has been mentioned > > previously on the list, but The Allegory also has themes of "shadows and > > light," "justice vs. injustice," "slavery vs. freedom," "the > governors > > vs. the governed," "the educated vs. the uneducated," "perception vs. > > misperception," and "divine element in the virtue of wisdom." > > > > I am convinced that Joni's "Shadow and Light" is based on "The > Allegory of > > the Cave." Here is a striking example from Joni's lyrics: > > > > Suntans in reservation dining rooms > > Pale miners in their lantern rays > > > > The pale miners are obviously those who live within the shadows > of Plato's > > cave, and the Suntans are obviously those who have emerged out > of Plato's > > cave into the sunlight as either the educated class, elite class, ruling > > class, or oppressing class. > [...] > Well, of course Joni has read it, and left in her a profound influence. As > in any person with Real Heart & Mind. This is maybe the must > poignant text, > IMO: one sees it being quoted constantly on papers (at least about the > manipulation of knowdlege & information by governments, at least about our > societies sitting front the tv light, ay): let me quote my fave > statement : > "they're like us, indeed". > > But let's try to clear things a little: Shadows & Light is reflecting a > situation of disorder, of deep injustice between people, but that gets his > balance from that constant fight and irreconciliable differences: > that's the > way it is: Joni states: she clearly knows how many times > misunderstanding of > life leads to evil; she clearly knows what's worth (like any real poet > does). Fortunately the invocation (almost) at the end: > "Man of Delight, Born Again, Born Again" > saves, for me, the song. > > Plato: > Plato isn't at all at ease, with the Cave: yes the book it's called > "POLITEIA" but with this text is talking about the Education. One > must try, > make a hard effort and try to really understand things by him/herself. > People who feels at ease letting others decide (or could we say: > who sees 20 > tv spots a day, and endures it) mustn't be heard in political questions. > Please set this clear: yes Plato is in some ways the father of > totalitarism > (as stated Popper in his classic "The open society and its > enemies"), but , > his vision was one of love & harmony, as in some human but "religious" > heaven: let me explain it briefly: > > Plato would have yelled at our goverments : he clearly states: > the ones who > decide and the ones who are soldiers/police aren't allowed *at > all* to have > any riches, any business, any family than the State. > Imagine this for a minute: think how public nurseries would be in this > society. > > Plus: it's the level of education (without regarding parents nor any > heritage) that select men (and women, for first time in greek theory) for > governement : mathematics, music and gymnastic are the cornerstone for > entering in the people who doesn't produce material things. > > In other hand, Plato isn't a dualist: yes he describes two "worlds", two > egoes (Body & Soul), two ways of knowdlege, but he only admits > one: there's > so huge an abyss in importance and reality between those levels > of realm, of > wo/man, of truth! > Dualist is Zaratustra, not Plato. > > So, when Joni sings about the bronzed executives and the miners, she isn't > refering to Plato's Cave: it's impossible. > Plato don't trust democracy (he even here refers to Socrate's death, you > know) but from his vision also comes libertarian's knowdlege with its > central idea of the proper education, for everyone this time. > > Another night I'll inflict you another post about this and Nietzsche, and > Nietzsche vs. Plato, too! > Thanks for reading so far and... > Have a Wonderful time! > Emiliano > > NP: In France They Kiss On Main Street, Philadelphia, February 16, 1976 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:46:47 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: Shadows and Light (for aol, non-mac users) Wally: you've set up clearer! Emiliano Wally says: well, emiliano has said it much better than i ever could. i can't really find a connection between the allegory and s&l. the "shadows" and the "light" seem to be coexisting states in the song -- a ying yang thing. in the allegory, however, they are two different states of evolution. joni is making a pictorial reference, whereas plato is speaking about the shadows that we think are the real objects before we come out of the cave, see the sun and understand that these shadows were only the projections of the real objects outside. anyway, what i mean to say is that i agree with emiliano. wally ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:00:35 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Shadows and Light --- Emiliano wrote: > Another night I'll inflict you another post about > this and Nietzsche, and > Nietzsche vs. Plato, too! > Thanks for reading so far and... > Have a Wonderful time! > Emiliano Don't forget Socrates. I did a search on the jmdl because I do remember hearing Joni talk about Plato and Socrates, but it was in reference to "Just ice", rather than "Shadows and Light", where she refers to Plato asking people what justice is, and they tell him, it's just the strong doing what they can, and the weak suffering the cost. (She goes on to talk about Socrates after that.) From an article on the site (Aug. 27, 1994 http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=48 after the release of "Turbulent Indigo.") - ----------------------------------------------------- "I still believe in the power of the word, that words inspire," says Joni Mitchell, and in considering the proposition that chance and a traffic sign had placed before her, she later turned to Plato's "Republic", a philosophical discussion of moral ideas written and dramatized four centuries before Christ. "I also believe in the idea that the performing arts, including songs and plays, are capable of slowing people down and touching their souls in order to generate thoughtfulness. The premise of Plato's 'play' is the presentation of the argument that the strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must, debating if that's both true and fair." [...] Justice as displayed in Plato's "Republic" is the restraint of one's own selfish aims when they conflict with the well-being of others. Thus, until the day that each citizen is willing to do good while expecting absolutely nothing in return, there shall be no justice. - ------------------------------------------------------- ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:22:31 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Dulcimer (medium Joni Content) Joni, Here's my idea for a tour of small venues. Short road trips followed by house parties. You can start in LA, of course. I know some people who would let you have their living rooms free of charge. Then we'll tag-team the driving to Santa Barbara, San Francisco, Denver, Nawlins, Covington, Kentucky of course, Detroit, then over to Toronto, down to Maryland, NJ, and finish at The Bottom Line. How bout a small-time, hit-and-run collection of living rooms. What do you say? Call me when you get up at 3PM. I'll take a month off from work. I'm holding my breath starting right now. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:44:21 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: Re: Shadows and Light <> Holy Batcave, Emiliano! Twelve times each year since '78? I've only read it twice..and it was for school. Once I had to read it and write an essay for the topic of education. In another class, I had to read it and write a different essay for the topic of politics and justice. Perhaps I should've stated that I am convinced "Shadows and Light" was *inspired* by (not *based* on) The Allegory. Mia _________________________________________________________________ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage  4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:56:15 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: Re: Shadows and Light <> Yes, Catherine, thanks for that library link. I remember hearing Joni talk about Plato on the Much Music Interactive TV Special in Toronto before she played "Sex Kills." She mentioned that she had read Plato, and still to this day does not know what justice is. Plato/Socrates had a well-intentioned but twisted utopian vision that included each individual being assigned to the one occupation that he/she is best suited for.....and Joni felt she would be pinched in such a society. She could not be a painter/poet/musician all at the same time. Mia _________________________________________________________________ Create a Job Alert on MSN Careers and enter for a chance to win $1000! http://msn.careerbuilder.com/promo/kaday.htm?siteid=CBMSN_1K&sc_extcmp=JS_JASweep_MSNHotm2 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #72 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)