From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #68 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, March 10 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 068 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- re: Joni Mitchell's Reckless and Shapeless "Daughter" Rolling Stone Review (1978) [cul ] Re:Re: Harry's House and Hissing ["jlobello" ] Re: falsetto [Randy Remote ] Joni Videos [AsharaJM@aol.com] Re: falsetto ["Caio Nehring" ] Re: falsetto - The previous was uncomplete, as usual... ["Caio Nehring" <] Today's Library Links: March 10 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] RE: falsetto ["Marian Russell" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 03:24:13 -0500 From: cul Subject: re: Joni Mitchell's Reckless and Shapeless "Daughter" Rolling Stone Review (1978) Back then : GRRRRRRRRR... Now : tch tch I clearly remember that review Les just posted. It incenced me then and it irks me now, although today I feel more pity *for* her than rage *at* her. I wrote a long long long letter to the author, Janet Maslin, refuting her positions and explaining to her that she was incapable of discerning what Mitchell was doing and if that review was any indication of her skills as a music critic, she would do well to stop projecting her own faults on to others. Its amazing how completely off the mark and how revealing of the critics ignorance a review can be. To describe the lyrics of "Hissing of Summer Lawns" as "failed social commentary" or "Hejira" as "rambling, hypnotic flights of fancy" is just stunning in its errancy. Her comment that "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter is that it is an instructive failure" is true, but only in the sense that the failure is that of the critic to appreciate what the album was about and her inability to rein in her own need to appear personally and intellectual superior. As it was, and is, the entire article amounts to nothing more than misconstruction and "sophomore jive"...as in "from victims of typewriters, the band sounds like typewriters". I wonder what she would think of her review today? cul np the sound of coffee gurgling into the pot desperately waiting to be savored by my highly critical tongue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 01:03:18 -0800 From: Fae_Hamilton@notes.rlg.org Subject: Fae Hamilton/RLG is out of the office until Oct. 13, 2003 I will be out of the office starting 03/09/2004 and will not return until 03/15/2004. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 06:41:14 -0500 From: Gary Zack Subject: World Cafe - Joni 1994 Interview Replay/Nellie McKay Thursday Thought this might be of interest to you all: David Dye welcomes Nellie McKay to the World Cafi on Thursday at 2. We continue to expose a new generation of singer songwriters on this special Women's History Month series. This edition of the show features the much-acclaimed Nellie McKay whose music draws from both cabaret and rap, sometimes even in the same song! We'll hear a live performance of songs from her debut album, "Get Away From Me." Plus, we revisit our 1994 interview with the incomparable Joni Mitchell. As always, we've got some great tunes from your favorite World Cafi artists. http://www.worldcafe.org/comingup.php Best, Gary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 10:15:45 -0500 From: "Marianne Rizzo" Subject: it's an honor Rickie (being compared to Joni) I could see how Rickie could be compared to Joni. . .they both have the same prototype and they both seem to go their own way and don't folow the traditional music industry channels. . . ie. more independent types. . I lost favor for Rickie when I saw this interview. . . when she responded to this question. . . (being compared to Joni). I don't know all that much about Rickie but , I found her response to be less than gracious. . . In my eyes, I would have liked to her to say, "It is an HONOR to be compared to Joni Mitchell, although in many ways we are different." And then I would have liked her to . . . . GET UP AND F*CKING BOW DOWN! It is an Honor Rickie, an Honor!!! Does she realize what an honor this is? Okay, I understand that she doesn't want to be compartmentalized or to be compared to women only. . . but this comparison. . .was one that, I feel she could have handled with reverence and grace. . . It was *Joni Mitchell* you were being compared to Rickie! Joni Mitchell ! And THEN I thought, . . . Rickie doesn't enough compare to Joni. . especially when I heard the first few lines of her song "Ugly Man." It is a song she wrote about "president Bush." Referring to Bush as an "ugly man.. . . ." and even though he is the worst president in my life time, I think Joni would find a more symbolic and interesting way to speak of this creature. XO Marianne >Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:20:46 EST >From: KJHSF@aol.com >Subject: Re: Don't compare Rickie to Joni... >I caught this interview as well, and thanks to whichever lister alerted us >to this broadcast! >About her comparison to Joni, Rickie asked: "why? because we're both >SMART? because we're both blonde? ...it's not about whether I like or >dislike her music...it's sexist...etc." >I thought Rickie was very careful not to engage in sniping against Joni. >In another interview, when asked about Sheryl Crow, RIckie had responded, >"I don't discuss Sheryl Crow." end of discussion. >I think Joni hit the nail on the head with the comparisons with Rickie. >Both blonde, beret wearing and facially similar (the long space between the >upper .lip and the nose) >ken _________________________________________________________________ Fast. Reliable. Get MSN 9 Dial-up - 3 months for the price of 1! (Limited-time Offer) http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:47:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: RE: falsetto My understanding is that the passaggio for altos is generally higher than for sopranos - they can stay in chest voice longer. From my experience as a first (very high) soprano singing along to joni here's what i've come to think about what her voice type is: She has (had) a beautiful clear head voice - soaring along on those high notes with great ease (like at the end of California). She also has a wonderful warm chest and mix (of head and chest) voice. Her 'click' or break point is higher than mine (i'm a typical soprano - with a huge break or hole in my voice around E or F on most days). I'm thinking of 'That Song about the Midway' - still early in her career, but it's low in her range, but warm and gorgeous. On her break point: I think Joni made a choice to exaggerate her passaggio (e.g., "I deal in dream-mers and telephone screamers...") You could say she was turning a weakness into a strength maybe, but she never oversused it (unlike a lot of current singer/songwriters). The transition between her chest and mix voice is very smooth though, as compared to say Dar Williams who has a very distinct break between her chest and mix/head voice. In conclusion, I'd call Joni's voice type: uncategorizable. Isn't that just like her! But if you held a gun to my head, I'd say mezzo-soprano - with a (once) huge range and a great tone and timbre in both her head (with the exception of LOTC) and chest/mix voice. jenny Marian Russell wrote: - ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Wally Kairuz" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:31:02 -0300 >oh that's the PASSAGGIO, the "click point" that cul mentioned. it >occurs approx. between B-flat and F-sharp in the head voice range. It actually occurs at different points for the different voices. For a soprano, I think the "click point" is somewhere around E to F above middle C. For an alto, it's lower - like around C to D-flat. I don't know what the points are for tenor and bass. I think in order to find out for sure whether or not Joni is a soprano we would need to determine her "click point". Maybe there is a way to do that without meeting with her personally. Marian Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 13:01:18 -0500 From: "jlobello" Subject: Re:Re: Harry's House and Hissing All, Referring to below (Bob and Kakki). You know I think that certain performers just naturally resonate to certain individuals. Joni is one of those to me. With Hissing and Hejira, I liked those records right off. Sure, I had to listen to them a few time to get part of what she was trying to say (and I'm still listening and learning). My friends at the time were, for the most part negative about these two lps. They had expected something similar to Court and Spark, but didn't realize that Joni had to keep evolving. My main sin as far as I'm concern (and I feel quite guilty about it) is to let her slip from my life from 1978 to 1988 (with the exception of seeing her live in 1979). Getting back to my original ascertion, I like certain recording artist. CSN (and Y) and all of them individually. Neil, even though he can be a jerk sometimes (so can I) stands out. JT and Jackson. Zappa!! I love his irreverence. Linda and Nicolette are also my faves. I don't have any Laura Nyro and Carol King but like them. Folk/Pop, Jazz, Blues and Reggae in that order as far as genre go. And, I like a few country artists (The Chicks, Johnny Cash). Rickie Lee Jones is someone who could possibly reach me, but her clipped vocal style puts me off. Sarah grates on me after about one song. Bluegrass and Old timie I can take or leave. The Chicks and Alison Krause (quite fantastic) are mainly bluegrass. About 15 years ago the only bands around here played Old Timie music and that got old real fast!!! Jono >Kakki: >Thanks for helping to assuage my guilt/pain re not getting Hissing (and everything later) at first. Repeating a few of your comments, then mine: K: " It didn't really appeal to me musically at the time (but I wore out an 8 track tape trying to like it). " BS: that's how I felt about my vinyl of Hejira. I quite early on Hissing. K: " I think it was the combination of Joni once again being ahead of her time and what we were actually hearing (invading our eardrums) on Top 40 radio at the time. " BS: I think more the former than the latter. Joni never really came close to having a #1 hit, but I loved everything through C&S anyway (though as I said recently, I got a bit nervous about Just Like This Train, Trouble Child and Twisted - harbingers of things to come.) K: " I looked up the top hits for 1975 and the contrast is indeed stark! Check someof it out here http://www.fullsizegm.com/hitsongs.html#anchor1544527 BS: Thanks for the lists of 1970's number 1 hits. Still, I was not blown away by the number 1 songs from the earlier years, either. In some cases, the number 1 hits tended to stay there longer until 74-75. Perhaps that is indicative of their superior quality, or perhpas a lack of serious competition. I cannot recall. I was already pretty much Joni-bound by then. Still, how painful that Ringo had 2 number 2 hits in that period (early 70's), not to mention all of the other pap. The poetic justice is that most of those others will not endure as time goes on (already do not). The sadness is that "greatness" - as commonly measured by attaining high levels over long periods of time - will (and has) come so much easier to those with the "pop hit" success, such as Elton John, the Beatles, Eagles, - heck, even my pal JT had a number one there (I watched his DVD again last night - fun, and very good IMO). K: "overall, coming off the Renaissance decade (1964-1974) of mostly incredible music, 1975 and a few years following was like being in a comparative wasteland." BS: I agree, and I also think that that has more to do with overall levels, not just the pop chart hits. Thanks again, Kakki. Bobsart< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 11:10:12 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: falsetto Marian Russell wrote: > ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- > From: "Wally Kairuz" > Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:31:02 -0300 > > >oh that's the PASSAGGIO, the "click point" that cul mentioned. it > >occurs approx. between B-flat and F-sharp in the head voice range. > > It actually occurs at different points for the different voices. For a soprano, I think the "click point" is somewhere around E to F above middle C. For an alto, it's lower - like around C to D-flat. I don't know what the points are for tenor and bass. I think in order to find out for sure whether or not Joni is a soprano we would need to determine her "click point". Maybe there is a way to do that without meeting with her personally. You know on the LOTC version of Woodstock, she does that yodel thing at the end....is that her click point? If so, we can settle this controversy once and for all (maybe)! RR, who thinks Joni is a soprano, or was, even though she says she isn't (or wasn't). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 17:19:52 EST From: AsharaJM@aol.com Subject: Joni Videos Ahmed asked: <> I am happy to make videos (NTSC format only) of the Joni tape trees and other things I have for blanks and postage or the money equivalent of same. If anyone is interested, please e-mail me privately for the list and instructions of how to get them. Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:55:00 -0300 From: "Caio Nehring" Subject: Re: falsetto Catherine McKay Thanks for your quote on me. You were the one who read me... After I read all those e-mails re: Falsetto, i think maybe i was full of sh*t when i wrote "exquisite falsettos" referring to some of Joni's high registers. It was just a way of referring to these excepcional high registers. The main thing is that all of you have understood what i tried to say/explain. I just a guitar player doin' instrumental music. When it comes to voice...and after all the damage cigarettes made to my "once interesting voice", i am a total disaster...There were times when i'd sing in falsetto to reach extremely high tones, higher than my voice could stand, know what i mean? Of course, today i can't even think of doing that...it's gone. Then...instrumental music... But anyway, i'm not a singer, i've never had singing lessons and i could even have been using the wrong expression to say what i wanted to say. I learned a lot about voice, sopranos, contraltos and falsetto reading yours, Wally Kairuz and Marian Russell's e-mails, they were really usefull. Thanx for all. Maybe i could not apply this to Joni's voice, or maybe through another view, i could. It seems to me now, that falsetto is something closer to Prince's (Da artist...) singing tricks and devices, like "faking" his voice to sound like a feminine voice, since it looks that falsetto it's more obvious in a man's voice. Thanks a lot. Caio pandora54@ig.com.br - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine McKay" Lately, > Ive read that Joni has always referred to > > herself as being an alto > > rather than a soprano. > > > > Now, I may be full of sh*t but a few weeks ago when > > our new Brazilian friend, > > Ciao, joined up, he referred to Jonis high register > > as a exquisite > > "falsetto". And, by god, I think that is what she > > employs (not consciously, > > mind you) to hit her high highs. All be its a very > > feminine falsetto, but a > > falsetto none the less. > > Joni has herself referred to her high voice as a "sort > of falsetto" (or her "helium" voice). Women can and do > sing falsetto, but it's not as obvious as when a man > does it. Sometimes it's called "head voice" (although > I think the term "head voice" doesn't necessarily > always mean falsetto.) My singing teacher suggested, > to get that particular falsetto, to try whining like a > very young puppy ;-) I'm not sure what the highest > note is that Joni can sing, but a lot of sopranos can > do F or F# above the C above middle-C without a > problem. I'm an alto and I can occasionally, if I have > to, hit the D about the C above middle-C or even an E, > but I don't feel at all comfortable there - it's like > being strangled (like, I've experienced that many > times). And the older we get, the more register we > lose. Smoking doesn't help, and Joni has had health > problems too, and she seems to prefer the sound of the > lower register in any case. > > ===== > Catherine > Toronto> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 01:27:16 -0300 From: "Caio Nehring" Subject: Re: falsetto - The previous was uncomplete, as usual... Catherine McKay Thanks for your quote on me. You were the one who read me... After I read all those e-mails re: Falsetto, i think maybe i was the one full of sh*t when i wrote "exquisite falsettos" referring to some of Joni's high registers. It was just a way of referring to these excepcional high registers. The main thing is that all of you have understood what i tried to say/explain. I hope... I'm just a guitar player doin' instrumental music. When it comes to voice...and after all the damage cigarettes made to my "once interesting voice", i am a total disaster...There were times when i'd sing in falsetto to reach extremely high tones, higher than my voice could stand, know what i mean? Of course, today i can't even think of doing that...it's gone. Then...instrumental music... But anyway, i'm not a singer, i've never had singing lessons and i could even have been using the wrong expression to say what i wanted to say. I learned a lot about voice, sopranos, contraltos and falsetto reading yours, Wally Kairuz, Cul and Marian Russell's e-mails, they were really usefull. Thanx for all. Maybe i could not apply this to Joni's voice, or maybe through another view, i could. It seems to me now, that falsetto is something closer to Prince's (Da artist...) singing tricks and devices, like "faking" his voice to sound like a feminine voice, since it looks that falsetto it's more obvious in a man's voice. ps. In Brazil there is a famous singer, Ney Mattogrosso (a surname that means somethin' like Dense Forest, Thick Jungle), assumed gay. Well, if you close your eyes when he sings, you'll certainly say that a woman is singing. But if you talk to him, casually,he has a grave voice, a normal male voice. When he sings, he uses his falsetto voice. Is that correct? Thanks a lot. Caio pandora54@ig.com.br NP Joan Armatrading - Love and Affection - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine McKay" Lately, > Ive read that Joni has always referred to > > herself as being an alto > > rather than a soprano. > > > > Now, I may be full of sh*t but a few weeks ago when > > our new Brazilian friend, > > Ciao, joined up, he referred to Jonis high register > > as a exquisite > > "falsetto". And, by god, I think that is what she > > employs (not consciously, > > mind you) to hit her high highs. All be its a very > > feminine falsetto, but a > > falsetto none the less. > > Joni has herself referred to her high voice as a "sort > of falsetto" (or her "helium" voice). Women can and do > sing falsetto, but it's not as obvious as when a man > does it. Sometimes it's called "head voice" (although > I think the term "head voice" doesn't necessarily > always mean falsetto.) My singing teacher suggested, > to get that particular falsetto, to try whining like a > very young puppy ;-) I'm not sure what the highest > note is that Joni can sing, but a lot of sopranos can > do F or F# above the C above middle-C without a > problem. I'm an alto and I can occasionally, if I have > to, hit the D about the C above middle-C or even an E, > but I don't feel at all comfortable there - it's like > being strangled (like, I've experienced that many > times). And the older we get, the more register we > lose. Smoking doesn't help, and Joni has had health > problems too, and she seems to prefer the sound of the > lower register in any case. > > ===== > Catherine > Toronto> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 02:01:14 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: March 10 On March 10 the following articles were published: 1988: "Mitchell "Storms" Back" - Rolling Stone (Interview) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=305 1998: "Bob Dylan Tour In Jeopardy" - Live! Daily Website (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=167 2000: "Both Sides Now" - New Musical Express (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=466 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 23:54:00 -0800 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: RE: falsetto - ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Jenny Goodspeed Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 07:47:59 -0800 (PST) >My understanding is that the passaggio for altos >is generally higher than for sopranos - they can >stay in chest voice longer. This makes a lot of sense (I wasn't sure about the alto passaggio location). I have always marveled at people who seem to be able to sing so easily through the E to F breakpoint that I have and have wondered how they could do that. I found some interesting links: http://www.vocalist.org/group/vocalist-temporary/message/1211.html http://www.vocalist.org.uk/passaggio.html http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm4-1/sm4-1VoiceDoc_en.htm It seems like the whole subject of determining one's voice type is a lot more complicated than just finding the passaggio points, although the points seem to one of the clues. >She also has a wonderful warm chest and mix (of head and chest) >voice. Her 'click' or break point is higher than mine (i'm a >typical soprano - with a huge break or hole in my voice around E >or F on most days). I'm thinking of 'That Song about the >Midway' - still early in her career, but it's low in her range, >but warm and gorgeous. So do you know what note it is that seems to be a passaggio for Joni? >But if you held a gun to my head, I'd say mezzo-soprano - with a >(once) huge range and a great tone and timbre in both her head >(with the exception of LOTC) and chest/mix voice. I also found some links with descriptions of various voice types: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/9547/singing.html http://open-site.org/Arts/Music/Instruments/Human_Voice/ I think I would agree that her voice is more mezzo-soprano than alto or high soprano (I also didn't know before looking around that there are so many distinctions within the soprano category). I was listening to I Had A King and Night In The City on the way to work. She sings some pretty low notes in those songs, and in Night In The City she does a kind of yodel between "the City" and "looks pretty" which I guess is switching between chest and head. Does anyone know what Joni sang in the choir? Was she a soprano? Marian ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #68 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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