From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #67 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Tuesday, March 9 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 067 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Harry's House and Hissing ["Kakki" ] Re: falsetto ["Marian Russell" ] Jennifer Terran ["Laurent Olszer" ] Re: Harry's House and Hissing [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: All I Want - Joni's range [Bobsart48@aol.com] Re: falsetto [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Harry's House, Hissing, and Hits [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Don't compare Rickie to Joni... ["kerry" ] Re: Don't compare Rickie to Joni... [KJHSF@aol.com] Re: Don't compare Rickie to Joni... [caio cardoso nehring ] Fw: falsetto (for aol, non-mac users) [Emiliano ] Re: Newbie [Warrenkeith91354@aol.com] 1) Joni at Oscar party pic & 2) Rickie Lee Jones' Joni snub ["J Harney" <] Re: 1) Joni at Oscar party pic & 2) Rickie Lee Jones' Joni snub [KJHSF@ao] Re: Mingus ["Caio Nehring" ] Re: Mingus [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: falsetto ["Marian Russell" ] Today's Library Links: March 9 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Jennifer Terran ["Kate Bennett" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 00:06:01 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Harry's House and Hissing Bob, While I may have got what Joni was doing with Hissing, it was only on an "art" level. It didn't really appeal to me musically at the time (but I wore out an 8 track tape trying to like it). It was similar to my first experience with DJRD (which in total took me two decades to decipher) except Hissing took years to appreciate musically. Hearing the stripped down Hissing demos caused me to finally fall in love with it. I think it was the combination of Joni once again being ahead of her time and what we were actually hearing (invading our eardrums) on Top 40 radio at the time. I looked up the top hits for 1975 and the contrast is indeed stark! Check some of it out here http://www.fullsizegm.com/hitsongs.html#anchor1544527 We're talking Mandy (Manilow), Laughter in the Rain (Sedaka); My Eyes Adored You (Frankie Valli); Love Will Keep Us Together (Captain and Tennille); That's The Way I Like It (KC & the Sunshine Band); Thanks God I'm a Country Boy (John Denver) Jive Talking (BeeGees) and Have You Never Been Mellow (Oliva Newton John) among other notables. (It almost brings me down to recall those titles ;-) I tried to remember back at what I favored back then out of the available offerings and some of them at least made the list, too - Linda Ronstadt, Doobie Brothers, Average White Band and Earth Wind & Fire. But overall, coming off the Renaissance decade (1964-1974) of mostly incredible music, 1975 and a few years following was like being in a comparative wasteland. I remember feeling when Steely Dan's Aja come out, that there was a breakthrough in the drought and hope again ;-) Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 00:38:44 -0800 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: Re: falsetto I took some voice lessons for awhile. According the two voice teachers that I worked with, the definition of a soprano or an alto or a tenor or a bass has to do with where the voice breaks from the chest voice into the head voice. If you sing an ascending scale starting from the lowest note you can comfortably sing, as you go up, you will reach a place where you have to shift HOW you sing the notes in order to keep going up the scale. That's like the break point. One of the aspects of voice training is to teach you to move through the break point without anyone noticing. I think Joni is an alto, but I think all her singing while lying on her back in the hospital probably was great training to sing in a relaxed manner, plus during all the years of singing in the choir at the local church she probably learned a lot about how to sing properly. Altos can sing up to about E or F comfortably. True sopranos can go even higher than two octaves above middle C. What somebody should find out is what was the highest note she ever sang in her earlier songs. I would be surprised if she ever went above F#. Joni can sing extremely low. Check out her lowest notes in Impossible Dreamer. Marian NPIMH: Boticelli Black Boy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 11:42:19 +0100 From: "Laurent Olszer" Subject: Jennifer Terran Jennifer Terran is coming into town. Reviews are comparing her to Blue. She also shares the same engineer with SIQUOMB as on TI. I previewed her on cdbaby and I must admit the resemblance in the voice is striking. Does anybody know about her? Laurent ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 08:47:23 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: Harry's House and Hissing Kakki: Thanks for helping to assuage my guilt/pain re not getting Hissing (and everything later) at first. Repeating a few of your comments, then mine: K: " It didn't really appeal to me musically at the time (but I wore out an 8 track tape trying to like it). " BS: that's how I felt about my vinyl of Hejira. I quite early on Hissing. K: " I think it was the combination of Joni once again being ahead of her time and what we were actually hearing (invading our eardrums) on Top 40 radio at the time. " BS: I think more the former than the latter. Joni never really came close to having a #1 hit, but I loved everything through C&S anyway (though as I said recently, I got a bit nervous about Just Like This Train, Trouble Child and Twisted - harbingers of things to come.) K: " I looked up the top hits for 1975 and the contrast is indeed stark! Check someof it out here http://www.fullsizegm.com/hitsongs.html#anchor1544527 BS: Thanks for the lists of 1970's number 1 hits. Still, I was not blown away by the number 1 songs from the earlier years, either. In some cases, the number 1 hits tended to stay there longer until 74-75. Perhaps that is indicative of their superior quality, or perhpas a lack of serious competition. I cannot recall. I was already pretty much Joni-bound by then. Still, how painful that Ringo had 2 number 2 hits in that period (early 70's), not to mention all of the other pap. The poetic justice is that most of those others will not endure as time goes on (already do not). The sadness is that "greatness" - as commonly measured by attaining high levels over long periods of time - will (and has) come so much easier to those with the "pop hit" success, such as Elton John, the Beatles, Eagles, - heck, even my pal JT had a number one there (I watched his DVD again last night - fun, and very good IMO). K: "overall, coming off the Renaissance decade (1964-1974) of mostly incredible music, 1975 and a few years following was like being in a comparative wasteland." BS: I agree, and I also think that that has more to do with overall levels, not just the pop chart hits. Thanks again, Kakki. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 08:59:55 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: All I Want - Joni's range cul wrote: "It took me a week to follow her through phrases like "we don't need a piece of paper from the city hall keeping us tied and true, no..." when I first got the album." Great choice of example, Cul. Congratulations on getting it in a week (bet it took most of us longer) :-) Bobsart PS - I love watching Joni's live performances of that song - with the brilliant piano arrangement. She was really something. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 09:14:10 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: falsetto I don't read music so I can't talk theoretically about any of this, but I will say that I was VERY surprised when I heard STAS for the first time (which was in the late 90's) after having listened to Clouds, Blue, & LOTC for along time. Her voice seems so much lower in some of those earliest songs. I think her highest notes ever are in "California", although lyrically the song is very playful, from a melody standpoint it's loaded with landminesand is definitely not easy. At last year's Wall to Wall Joni it was sung by Sylvia McNair from the Met, so she could handle it with no problem, but the average singer steers clear of it - probably why there are only (2) released vocal covers of it as opposed to (67) River's and (45) A Case of You's. Bob NP: Steve Miller Band, "Fly Like An Eagle" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 09:23:58 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Harry's House, Hissing, and Hits Subject: Don't compare Rickie to Joni... I caught a nice feature about Rickie Lee Jones on "CBS This Morning" yesterday and there was a small "Joni moment." All the interviewer had to say was, "You've been compared to Joni Mitchell..." and Rickie reacted pretty strongly. She said that to make that comparison is sexist and discredits her. She also said something like, "What is it that is alike about us? We're both blonde?" (I do have to say that she did really look like Joni in this interview.) After her "tirade" she said with a grin, "Did you want to finish that question?" The man doing the interview was practically cowering in his chair by then! Kerry NPIMH: Ani Difranco - Educated Guess ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 10:20:46 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: Don't compare Rickie to Joni... I caught this interview as well, and thanks to whichever lister alerted us to this broadcast! About her comparison to Joni, Rickie asked: "why? because we're both SMART? because we're both blonde? ...it's not about whether I like or dislike her music...it's sexist...etc." I thought Rickie was very careful not to engage in sniping against Joni. In another interview, when asked about Sheryl Crow, RIckie had responded, "I don't discuss Sheryl Crow." end of discussion. I think Joni hit the nail on the head with the comparisons with Rickie. Both blonde, beret wearing and facially similar (the long space between the upper lip and the nose) ken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:29:22 -0300 From: caio cardoso nehring Subject: Re: Don't compare Rickie to Joni... Em 8 Mar 2004, KJHSF@aol.com escreveu: >About her comparison to Joni, Rickie asked: "why? because we're both SMART? >because we're both blonde? ...it's not about whether I like or dislike her >music...it's sexist...etc." >I thought Rickie was very careful not to engage in sniping against Joni. In >another interview, when asked about Sheryl Crow, RIckie had responded, "I >don't discuss Sheryl Crow." end of discussion. ken > I think that's all, folks.Both blondes and very smart, always surrounded by incredible musicians...Rickie was a very careful lady, by the way. End of comparison. And Joy to the world... caio _________________________________________________________ Voce quer um iGMail protegido contra vmrus e spams? Clique aqui: http://www.igmailseguro.ig.com.br ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:31:02 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: falsetto oh that's the PASSAGGIO, the "click point" that cul mentioned. it occurs approx. between B-flat and F-sharp in the head voice range. let me give you further prove that joni is a soprano. have you watched the video where joni sings chelsea morning (i think it's the dick cavett tape)? she ends the song in a high note that would be impossible for an alto to reach. when you hear that note, you hear a soprano leggero, a "lucia" voice. when you hear an alto's highs, even if they are VERY high, you get a different quality, another texture. joni has an uneducated passaggio, though. that's why the "click", which is nothing more than the throat closing before it can open again, is so audible. i have said this before, so sorry for being repetitious. the fact that joni could sing in the lower range on STAS or Tin Angel, doesn't mean she is an alto. she was using "natural voice". her current range is very limited so it can't be classified either way. but most of her production until and including mingus was sung with a soprano voice. very little chest and a lot of head. wally > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Marian > Russell > Enviado el: Lunes, 08 de Marzo de 2004 05:39 a.m. > Para: joni@smoe.org > Asunto: Re: falsetto > > > I took some voice lessons for awhile. According the two voice > teachers that I worked with, the definition of a soprano or an > alto or a tenor or a bass has to do with where the voice breaks > from the chest voice into the head voice. If you sing an > ascending scale starting from the lowest note you can comfortably > sing, as you go up, you will reach a place where you have to > shift HOW you sing the notes in order to keep going up the scale. > That's like the break point. One of the aspects of voice > training is to teach you to move through the break point without > anyone noticing. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 19:53:12 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: falsetto (for aol, non-mac users) Wally says: oh that's the PASSAGGIO, the "click point" that cul mentioned. it occurs approx. between B-flat and F-sharp in the head voice range. > let me give you further prove that joni is a soprano. have you watched the video where joni sings chelsea morning (i think it's the dick cavett tape)? she ends the song in a high note that would be impossible for an alto to reach. when you hear that note, you hear a soprano leggero, a "lucia" voice. when you hear an alto's highs, even if they are VERY high, you get a different quality, another texture. > joni has an uneducated passaggio, though. that's why the "click", which is nothing more than the throat closing before it can open again, is so audible. > i have said this before, so sorry for being repetitious. the fact that joni could sing in the lower range on STAS or Tin Angel, doesn't mean she is an alto. she was using "natural voice". her current range is very limited so it can't be classified either way. but most of her production until and including mingus was sung with a soprano voice. very little chest and a lot of head. > wally > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Marian > > Russell > > Enviado el: Lunes, 08 de Marzo de 2004 05:39 a.m. > > Para: joni@smoe.org > > Asunto: Re: falsetto > > > > > > I took some voice lessons for awhile. According the two voice > > teachers that I worked with, the definition of a soprano or an > > alto or a tenor or a bass has to do with where the voice breaks > > from the chest voice into the head voice. If you sing an > > ascending scale starting from the lowest note you can comfortably > > sing, as you go up, you will reach a place where you have to > > shift HOW you sing the notes in order to keep going up the scale. > > That's like the break point. One of the aspects of voice > > training is to teach you to move through the break point without > > anyone noticing ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:40:50 EST From: Warrenkeith91354@aol.com Subject: Re: Newbie Welcome Ahmed ! I have to agree with Michael O' you do need to sample " Turbulent Indigo." I also agree with the selection of " Blue", " Court and Spark" and "Hejira." I think these four will give you a nice overall veiw of her journey thus far. Actually I would recommend the entire journey but that includes 15 releases - with the exception of live, greatest hits,or revisits. Enjoy your journey through whichever you chose to acquire next, I'm sure you will come to love them all... Jonily Yours, Warren Keith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:31:11 +0000 From: "J Harney" Subject: 1) Joni at Oscar party pic & 2) Rickie Lee Jones' Joni snub 1. I've noticed a few people express their interest in Joni's appearance at an Oscar party. The current issue (March 15, 2004, p. 12) of New York magazine has Joni is in one of Patrick McMullan's (he's become a brand name and has guys "snapping" pictures under his name) pictures, arms aloft, greeting a kittenish Gwen Stefani at the Vanity Fair Oscar party at Morton's. (Remember that Joni and Gwen Stefani shared space on the VF cover a couple of years ago for the VF music issue titled "Rock of Ages"?) Joni looks exuberant and is wearing her favorite Japanese designer. 2. Did anyone see Rickie Lee Jones on CBS Sunday Morning (March 07, 2004) as part of a series they have called "On Tour With..."? Well, the interviewer dared to make the comparison between Rickie Lee Jones and Joni. Big mistake! Rickie Lee Jones shot back fast: "Don't you say that!" She then went on to express her bewilderment at how anyone could make that comparison in the first place: "why, because we're both blonde, smart..." After a snub, a back-handed compliment. I believe there's been a lot of enmity between Joni and Rickie Lee Jones for a long time, which began with Rickie Lee Jones throwing the first grenade when she questioned whether or not Joni should consider herself a jazz singer. However, I may be way off... Jack - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ One-click access to Hotmail from any Web page  download MSN Toolbar now! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 17:44:20 EST From: KJHSF@aol.com Subject: Re: 1) Joni at Oscar party pic & 2) Rickie Lee Jones' Joni snub In a message dated 3/8/2004 5:32:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, jaquharn@hotmail.com writes: After a snub, a back-handed compliment. I believe there's been a lot of enmity between Joni and Rickie Lee Jones for a long time, I don't think it was a snub on Rickie's part at all. I think she bristled at the comparison in the same way that Joni bristles when called the greatest "woman" songwriter, or when compared to a plethora of Joni come latelys. I think there was some emnity at one time and that Rickie, like Joni, has learned how to respond to this type of comparison without slamming the other person while still showing displeasure toward the interviewer. ken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:46:33 -0300 From: "Caio Nehring" Subject: Re: Mingus - ----- Original Message ----- From: "jlobello" To: ; Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 5:57 AM Subject: Mingus > Ken, > I have a turntable and I need the Mingus album. > Jono> Jono, Ken I have two turntables, on the same base and I am hearing the Mingus album now, actually lookin' at the two Mingus' portraits Joni has painted and finishing my work's day on this monday afternoon in a hot and rainy weather that announces full moon, in SP, Brazil. By the way: "Goodbye Pork Pie" is listed on the JMDL's "Joni's Most Covered Songs (35 times)" as it was Joni's composition. Isn't "Goodbye Pork Pie" a Mingus' instrumental composition that Joni created lyrics especially for the Mingus'album? The very first time i've heard this song was in a Mingus album, as a instrumental piece, in the mid sixties. The 2nd time, it was in a Mahavishnu John McLaughlin record called "My goal's beyond" (just greaaat...) circa 1970. Then later on, 76, Jeff Beck made an incredible rendition of the song in his "Wired" album. Isn't here a case of "Mingus Most Covered Songs", being Joni's one of these Covers, plus her inspired and marvellous lyrics due her meetings with Mingus ? I've always wanted to ask someone, since i've read the "Joni's Most Covered Songs" item on "Goodbye". Can you help me? Caio NP Michael Hedges' Beyond Boundaries ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 19:56:14 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Mingus **Isn't "Goodbye Pork Pie" a Mingus' instrumental composition that Joni created lyrics especially for the Mingus'album?** Yes, Caio...the melody is Mingus' from way back. Joni added her lyrics specifically for the Mingus project. Since you've read my "Joni Undercover" homepage (and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for doing so) I would also hope that you've read this text there as well: - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ----------------------- Technically, not all of these songs are Joni's composition, but I heard them from Joni first, so I'll always think of them as "Joni songs". - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ---------------------- I'm certain that when jazzers are playing GPPH instrumentally, they are doing so in tribute to Charles. However, when a vocalist sings the Joni lyric, imo it's as much a Joni cover as it is a Mingus cover. I also include the following titles as "Joni Covers" although Joni did not write them: How Do You Stop You're So Square, Baby I Don't Care Twisted And any instrumental versions of: Sweet Sucker Dance Dry Cleaner From Des Moines A Chair In The Sky Bob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 22:06:49 -0800 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: RE: falsetto - ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Wally Kairuz" Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 14:31:02 -0300 >oh that's the PASSAGGIO, the "click point" that cul mentioned. it >occurs approx. between B-flat and F-sharp in the head voice range. It actually occurs at different points for the different voices. For a soprano, I think the "click point" is somewhere around E to F above middle C. For an alto, it's lower - like around C to D-flat. I don't know what the points are for tenor and bass. I think in order to find out for sure whether or not Joni is a soprano we would need to determine her "click point". Maybe there is a way to do that without meeting with her personally. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2004 02:07:28 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: March 9 On March 9 the following articles were published: 1978: "Joni Mitchell's Reckless and Shapeless "Daughter"" - Rolling Stone (Review - Album, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=256 1986: "Lucky Girl" - Los Angeles Herald (Interview, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=135 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2004 23:40:37 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Jennifer Terran >Jennifer Terran is coming into town. Reviews are comparing her to Blue. She also shares the same engineer with SIQUOMB as on TI. I previewed her on cdbaby and I must admit the resemblance in the voice is striking. Does anybody know about her? Laurent< She is my friend & neighbor, we have played a few shows together, in fact she performed d at my first (?) joni tribute (blue-at my request- & rainy night house & one other I forget now), her voice is so very beautiful & sometimes it makes me cry without the words making any sense...but I wouldn't really compare her to joni as a songwriter... She's quite unique & eccentric & I think you'd enjoy her show... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #67 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)