From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #50 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, February 21 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 050 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Ravioli Curls [Gordon Mackie ] Re: Posall and Mosalm [Deb Messling ] Re: Posall and Mosalm [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] RE: Raving curls ["Sherelle Smith" ] online listening [Kate ] RE: Raving curls, now "A Tape Of You" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: online listening [Ken ] Re: Cd ["jlobello" ] Re: Cd [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #49 [Michael Sahno ] interrupting my sorrow ["Patricia Parlette" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #49, ebay and early stuff [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: interrupting my sorrow ["hell" ] Re: interrupting my sorrow [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: interrupting my sorrow ["hell" ] Re: interrupting my sorrow [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: interrupting my sorrow [Emiliano ] Re: interrupting my sorrow ["hell" ] Re: interrupting my sorrow ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Love of my soul: beyond lyrics ["Caio Nehring" ] Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #49 [Catherine McKay ] Re: interrupting my sorrow [Catherine McKay ] Re: Love of my soul: beyond lyrics [Catherine McKay ] Love of my soul: beyond lyrics ["Caio Nehring" ] Today's Library Links: February 21 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:20:14 +0000 From: Gordon Mackie Subject: Ravioli Curls Hi all...hey and its a happy Friday too. Maybe I'm way too cynical this morning but here goes.... ravioli sounds a bit likie 'raving'. Perhaps Joni meant their hair was like pasta...oh and raving nonsense is a term !. Raving is a a real word folks...its in the dicitionary. Cheerio Gordon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:08:59 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Posall and Mosalm I have that old (bootleg) LP, and the sound quality is pretty dreadful. All those songs are widely available from list members for far less than $147 - like, say, for blanks and postage. The cover you describe sounds like something that appeared in a Stereo Review article. I don't think Joni did it. See the link below for the image: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=7 At 12:55 AM 2/20/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Here's something that I found on e-bay tonight. What can you tell me about >it. >Joni Mitchell >The Posall and Mosalm > >It had a drawing of a caricaturized naked Joni taking an apple from the >snake on the jacket cover >.---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 07:22:31 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Posall and Mosalm Ditto to what Deb said - I got this LP and was going to burn it to cd, just to have it, but the sound was so scratchy & muffled, and the recordings were made available on tape trees earlier in better form, that I decided against it. I'm sure it won't stay on ebay long - they never do. Bob NP: The Mojave 3, "Between The Bars" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:31:14 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: RE: Raving curls Hi Wally! I believe I did have the answer but I must have known more then than I do now! (Smile) It's funny because I just saw an ad for the product just a few days ago!It's still going strong! I keep singing this song in my head, I am going to have to put on HOSL right away! Oh Wally, I remember that tape! You are going to make me go back and dig it to listen to it! I lvoe that tape because everyone who contributed to it made such heartfelt recordings. I remember not having a tape recorder and feeling so sad that I couldn't contribute. Julie Z Webb actually mailed a small pocket recorder to me to borrow so that I could get on the compilation tape. Then on top of that, I fell very ill and had horrible laryngitis. Everytime I tried to sing, I kept squeaking! I wanted to be on that tape more than anythng and I was so scared my voice wouldn't come back in time. I recorded the song in my bathroom (the best acoustics in the world) and when both songs, Dreamland and Edith and the Kingpin were completed, it was the best feeling in the world. I will never forget the experience of making that dream a reality and I thank Julie from the bottom of my heart for making that happen for me. I have such nostalgic feelings about that time on the JMDL because Wally Breese was still alive and our hearts were alive with the hope of Joni jumping in on the discussion list. We were so smitten with Les because of his vision which created the JMDL and Wally Breese because of his vision with Joni's website. They were both our heros. Our hearts wanted so much to reach out to Joni and tell her how much we loved her and her music. I don't think she had started performing again, so everyone constantly shared memories of her past concerts. (One of my music friends in Ohio actually went to see one of her Shadows and Light concerts that was recorded) It was so thrilling to hear about someone's "Joni moment". We were all like starry eyed children and we drank in every word of every story. Many of us realized that we didn't have to just be dreamers. We could be doers. I can never underestimate what impact this list has had on my life and trust me Wally, you won't be able to get rid of me easily! My heart and soul is tied up in this group and because of you, I am singing. In fact, a lot of us are singing. A toast and cheers to the JMDL! Love, Sherelle >From: "Wally Kairuz" >To: "Sherelle Smith" >CC: >Subject: RE: Raving curls >Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:50:55 -0300 > >sherelle, >i remember the first time this question came up, you had the answer. am i >imagining things??? i was also confused how someone could raveen curls. >oxymoron. >incidentally, remember when we did that tape for joni centuries ago? i >always loved your version of dreamland. i was on that tape too! so when >you're even more famous, don't forget i was on a compilation with you :-) >wally > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de > > Sherelle Smith > > Enviado el: Jueves, 19 de Febrero de 2004 05:47 p.m. > > Para: emilianopd@mundo-r.com > > CC: joni@smoe.org > > Asunto: RE: Raving curls > > > > > > I'm a little late but I am here! > > > > Raveen is a hair processing product that African American women used to > > chemically straighten our hair. I've always been struck by the > > term, "Raveen > > curls" because as far as I always understood. The product only > > straightened > > the hair and did not curl it like many perm kits for non-African >American > > hair. I've never used this particular product so I don't know for > > sure, but > > I do use a similar chemical straightener. The "curls" are > > something I have > > to do with a good old fashioned curling iron! Hope that helps! > > > > Sherelle > > > > >dylan, > > > > >she may be referring to a hair care product called (i think) "raveen". > > > > >sherelle used to know the answer to this question. sherelle? you > > > > >there? wally > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. > > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:40:10 -0600 From: Kate Subject: online listening onlyJMDL Digest: > Laurent Olszer asked: > >> Now that I've got adsl at home, can anybody please >> recommend some cool radio stations that are on line? http://www.ckua.org hope this link still works; it's out of Edmonton Alberta and was a fantastic radio station when I lived in that area over a year ago; so good that it weaned me off CBC talk radio programs, which I was addicted to. CKUA was so good I didn't dare miss it. Kate of the North ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:48:26 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: RE: Raving curls, now "A Tape Of You" "Oh Wally, I remember that tape! You are going to make me go back and dig it to listen to it! I love that tape because everyone who contributed to it made such heartfelt recordings." FWIW I've transferred the 2-tape set to a 2-CD set. I don't listen to it a lot but it is very heartwarming as you say. Of course it also contains Wally Breese's version of BSN which is of course very touching, especially now. I never knew Lori Century but her recordings are fantastic. I wish she had professionally released them. Plus it contains Bryan Thomas' electrifying studio version of 'Black Crow' (perhaps my favorite take on that song) as well as Chuck E's classic lounge version of "Rainy Night House"! Bob NP: Mark Kozolek, "Find Me, Reuben Olivares" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:11:27 -0500 From: Ken Subject: Re: online listening If you have the Windows Media Player check out the online staitions there. There is quite a selection. Under the Jazz section one I enjoy is Accu Radio All That Jazz -Gutar Jazz. This is only a Net radio station. If you don't happen to have this listed on your WMP it can also be reached from. http://accuradio.com/ At the bottom of the page are links to the diffent stations. From there you can clic "All That Jazz" or one of the many others then try the "sub channels" Another station I enjoy is.Cool Fm http://www.canada.com/entertainment/features/cooljazz/index.html Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:30:33 -0500 From: "jlobello" Subject: Re: Cd Bob, I like jazz too. Here's a thought. Wouldn't it be neat to hear Joni on Mariam McPartland's Piano Jazz show. I've I already floated this idea to them (and Mari) at their website via e-mail. Jono - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ""jlobello"" Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Cd > Trouble Man - is from Kyle Eastwood's "From There to Here". It's a nice jazz cd from start to finish. Joni of course did Trouble Man in concert on her '98 and '00 tours, so lots of live versions exist as well. > > The Man I Love, Summertime - are from Herbie Hancock's "Gershwin's World" his salute and re-invention of the music of George Gershwin. Stevie Wonder and many others join in, along with these two stellar Joni vocals. She also did Summertime live in the "Day In The Garden" concert in August '98. > > Steadfast - is taken from Brian Blade's "Perceptual", also an excellent recording from start to finish. Very dark, moody, and ethereal. I love Joni's haunting vocal on this track and wish she'd enlist Daniel Lanois and do a whole album like this. > > All of these CD's are still in print and many can be found used at pretty low prices. > > Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:56:22 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Cd That would be muy splendid!! I love that show, and Joni would be a natural. Speaking of Joni & piano, I got a cover of "How Do You Stop" this week where it's just vocals & piano, and it sounds great. Makes me wish Joni had done it this way as well. Bob NP: Lenny Kravitz, "Fear" PS: Be careful about taking a post sent to you privately and re-sending it to the list. Generally considered a no-no. Luckily I didn't say anything that would get me in trouble! :~) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:40:09 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Sahno Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #49 Hi all, I am new here and it's nice to see this group out there discussing the work of the greatest female songwriter of the 20th century! But wow, bummer that somebody on ebay is profiting off Joni's music, particularly unreleased material. I have a tape that has a bunch of those songs (London Bridge, Joni's Coke Commercial, Eastern Rain, Brandy Eyes), and in fact, have been looking for sometime for a CD trader who has those...without success. If anyone has material from that era on CD, please let me know. Again, nice to be here. Mike P.S. If people in the group are so inclined, ebay can be notified that an item is an illegal bootleg and they will force the person to pull the item. It might also be worthwhile to email the seller and let them know that this material is copyrighted and that selling bootlegs on the internet is morally questionable at best. ;) - --- onlyJMDL Digest wrote: Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 00:55:23 -0500 From: "jlobello" Subject: Posall and Mosalm Bob, Here's something that I found on e-bay tonight. What can you tell me about it. Joni Mitchell The Posall and Mosalm Songs: The Circle Game with Chuck Mitchell, London Bridge, Joni's Coke Commercial, Eastern Rain, Just like Me, The Bagel Game, The Posall and Mosalm, Canadian Mythology, Brandy Eyes, Drummer Man, Winter Lady, Mr. Blue, Urge for Going, Quenn (or Queen?) Siquomb, Approximately, Sugar Mountain Plus a bunch of interview. Vibrator Record Company The vinyl disc was blue with white marbling. It had a drawing of a caricaturized naked Joni taking an apple from the snake on the jacket cover . Didn't say who did the drawing. I suppose she (Joni) could have done it. Opening bid was 147.00. I think they'd take 179.00 up front. Later, Jono __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want. http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:58:17 +0000 From: "Patricia Parlette" Subject: interrupting my sorrow Hi loves! To paraphrase that wonderful Spanish philospher (Buenos Dias, Emiliano!), I am having a WONDERFUL TIME here on the JMDL. It's like I've died and gone to Joni-heaven. All my life, no one has known more about Joni than me (in my little corner of the world, anyway), and now to meet all of you is just, well, fantastic (not to mention very humbling)! Now I feel like I know very little, but with a "might mighty thirst" to know more. I first posted last Friday, and it wasn't until Saturday night that I got my first wonderful blast of Joni emails. My best friend Janis (we became friends over Joni -- honest! -- in 1975) and I had gone out to dinner for Valentine's day, and afterward I went back to her house to use her computer (and have another glass of white zinfandel) to see if I had any replies to my post. I wish you could have witnessed the scene of pure joy as I scrolled down the names on my screen! Janis and I were squealing with delight as I read them out loud, increasingly excited by each name, eyes-a-popping, high-fiving each other -- so much so that her 9-month-old German Shepherd starting jumping in on the fun as I screamed out names: "Oh, look! Someone from the JMDL wrote to me! Jerry Notaro! SCJoniGuy (he's one of the Bob's!!!)! and Maggie from Boston! OHMYGOD!! And Bree, and Catherine McKay (Anima_rising - -- Queen of Queens of the JMDL and Toronto!!) and Patrick (he says: "The newbie scoops!!") and LCStanley -- Dr. Laura! Oh my God!!! And J. David Sapp and Cul and Jono and MIchael from Quebec!" Then we were almost falling off the computer chair, laughing, because the "hits just a kept on comin'!" Monafitz, right from my backyard in CT (hello, cosmic twin!) and PassScribe Kenny B! Oh, it was too much fun for sure. And then, of course, we knew: "there may be more!" Sure enough, this week a few more trickled in, each one adding exponentially to my intense pleasure. Marianne Rizzo, Anita (the first concert review here -- how awesome!), and then Ashara herself (the wonderful Ashara!!!) and then, OHMYGOD, the famous PAZ MAN!, and Les Irvin himself! Thanks so much, everybody. I feel like I'm just being born, like a shiny light breaking in a storm. It really IS a WONDERFUL TIME! Now, to give this post some real Joni content: 1. I don't know what to make of the lines "petrified wood procees, tall timber down to rock" in "Don't Interrup the Sorrow" (my favorite song of late). Can somebody clue me in? 2. I want to tell you about the times I saw Joni (6, I think), and I'm trying to perfect my memory. However, two of the times I saw her are not listed on the "appearances" page, so I've written to Simon to see if he can research them: 1. Winter or early Spring of 1974 at Woolsey Hall on the Yale campus in New Haven, CT (I remember the encore was "Twisted", and Court and Spark was so new that we didn't even KNOW the song yet -- can you imagine? Wouldn't you just KILL to see her perform that NOW???). 2. The other time was July or August 1974, in Montreal, at the Expo Center. That show was PURE MAGIC -- the Goddess at her best. I'll tell you about it later.... Thanks again for the wonderful welcome -- the best Valentine's Day I ever had! Peace, Patti P.S. Colin: I'm so sorry to hear of your pain, and that you felt let down by your old friends here. But if it is any comfort, let me tell you that ever since i've been reading here (NOT LURKING!!! that's too sinister and evil-sounding!) I have sensed great love and affection from the people here in their messages to you. In fact, in my first post, I wanted to say: P.S. Where is Colin? Is he o.k.? It's been a while." You are in my prayers. _________________________________________________________________ Dream of owning a home? Find out how in the First-time Home Buying Guide. http://special.msn.com/home/firsthome.armx ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:33:20 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #49, ebay and early stuff Hi Mike, and welcome to the JMDL. Back when I signed on to this list back in 1998, I had no idea that anything prior to Song To A Seagull existed; for that matter I didn't even have Song To A Seagull! Well, I've since mended my ways and over the years have been very fortunate to get lots of those early Joni songs, which I really treasure. I recently took all of them, 20 or so, and consolidated them onto a CD. I'll be happy to get a copy to you for blanks/postage or costs for same. As for bootleg LP's on ebay, I don't really have a problem with folks selling old vinyl bootleg LP's there, they are definitely collectibles as far as I'm concerned. Sure, Joni's not making anything on it, but I doubt that she'll go to bed with a growling tummy tonight. Besides, if we had a proper rarities boxset to buy commercially, it would put a lot of these guys out of business. Joni bootlegs usually don't stay active very long anyway before they get shut down. Ebay doesn't do a real good job of policing their stuff (too much to police I'm sure) and when I've contacted them about stuff that shouldn't be there it hasn't done any good. Thanks for the intro, and I look forward to hearing more from you! Bob NP: Daniel Lanois, "Shine" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:58:07 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: interrupting my sorrow Patti wrote: > 1. I don't know what to make of the lines "petrified wood procees, tall > timber down to rock" in "Don't Interrup the Sorrow" (my favorite song of > late). Can somebody clue me in? The word petrify literally means "turn to stone", and the process of petrification is when wood becomes rock. The wood enters a swamp or bog, and the water prevents oxygen getting to the wood (which would normally cause decay). It is then covered by minerals - commonly from volcanic eruptions. Over time (millions of years), minerals from the the soil are gradually absorbed by the pores in the wood and sometimes even replace the wood tissue. These minerals (usually silica, commonly known as quartz) form the "rock". Other trace minerals like iron or copper oxides will cause different colours to form. It's not a common occurence - more often wood just disintegrates, or with enough pressure will turn to coal. I know we had a piece of petrified wood at home when I was growing up, but I have no idea what became of it! Hell (AKA Helen in NZ) ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - now even MORE new and improved! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:13:39 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: interrupting my sorrow **The word petrify literally means "turn to stone", and the process of petrification is when wood becomes rock. ** The bigger & much more difficult question to wrestle with is how the lines fit in the context of the song, which is arguably Joni's most cryptic. I don't have a good grasp on the 'big picture' of this song... is it an internal monologue that she's having with her masculine side, or an actual argument between man & woman? The glossary tells us that 'anima' is the Jungian term for man's feminine side, which makes it even more confusing. The context of the line is: I'm leaving on the 1:15 You're darn right Since I was seventeen I've had no one over me He says "Anima rising So what Petrified wood process Tall timber down to rock" So it makes sense to imagine it as an internal monologue, and the singer is saying that leaving, or becoming more independent, is going to make her stronger just as the petrification process makes wood a stronger material does. I dunno if that helps or just makes it muddier! ;~) Bob NP: Jim Lauderdale, "Always On The Outside" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:20:52 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: interrupting my sorrow Bob wrote: > The bigger & much more difficult question to wrestle with is > how the lines fit in the context of the song, which is > arguably Joni's most cryptic. > > I don't have a good grasp on the 'big picture' of this song... > is it an internal monologue that she's having with her > masculine side, or an actual argument between man & woman? The > glossary tells us that 'anima' is the Jungian term for man's > feminine side, which makes it even more confusing. > > The context of the line is: > > I'm leaving on the 1:15 > You're darn right > Since I was seventeen > I've had no one over me > He says "Anima rising > So what > Petrified wood process > Tall timber down to rock" > > So it makes sense to imagine it as an internal monologue, and > the singer is saying that leaving, or becoming more independent, > is going to make her stronger just as the petrification process > makes wood a stronger material does. You know, after I sent that email, I realised I hadn't actually discussed what it means in the song - very remiss of me! The definition of anima is interesting. According to the Merrian-Webster online dictionary, the word can refer to two different things: soul : an individual's true inner self that in the analytic psychology of C. G. Jung reflects archetypal ideals of conduct And also: an inner feminine part of the male personality. Personally, I think Joni is using the first definition in this song, ie. the inner self that reflects archetypal ideals of conduct. Joni is widely read in philosophy, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if she'd read a great deal of Jung's works. So, looking at all the lyrics in turn, this is my interpretation: Don't interrupt the sorrow Darn right In flames our prophet witches Be polite A room full of glasses He says "Your notches, liberation doll" And he chains me with that serpent To that Ethiopian wall We've had a large number of discussions on that "Your notches, liberation doll" might mean, and I don't want to start it again. But...... ;o) My take on this verse is that this is a woman in an unhappy relationship with a chauvanistic, conceited man. She's playing the good housewife. She's not happy in her role but it's ingrained in her and she can't bring herself to leave - she's almost accepted that her life will be unhappy (indicated by the title line). He's chained her with age-old guilt (the serpent from the Garden of Eden) that this is a woman's place - cleaning up after him (the room full of glasses). Every one she washes, he remarks sarcastically that despite thinking she's a liberated woman, she's still notching up "housewife points". Anima rising Queen of Queens Wash my guilt of Eden Wash and balance me Anima rising Uprising in me tonight She's a vengeful little goddess With an ancient crown to fight One day she starts to feel differently (the anima rising) and decides she no longer needs to feel guilty for Eve's "sin" in the Garden of Eden, and that this has gone on for far too long - an ancient crown to fight. Truth goes up in vapors The steeples lean Winds of change patriarchs Snug in your bible belt dreams God goes up the chimney Like childhood Santa Claus The good slaves love the good book A rebel loves a cause More of the same - she's justifying her rebellion, and defying God at the same time. She's decided the bible places too much emphasis on men being dominant over women, and that women have accepted this "truth" for too long (the good slaves love the good book) and it's time to break away from that thinking. God is no more "truth" than Santa Claus. Men have also become complacent about it - snug in their bible-belt dreams. I'm leaving on the 1:15 You're darn right Since I was seventeen I've had no one over me He says "Anima rising So what Petrified wood process Tall timber down to rock" She finally says, "Right, I'm leaving...." and he, again somewhat sarcastically, says "Sure, you're saying you're independent, liberated and have been since you were seventeen. You might feel this rebellion, but so what? Men have been dominant over women for thousands of years, and it will take thousands more years before you have enough guts to actually leave." Don't interrupt the sorrow Darn right He says "We walked on the moon You be polite" Don't let up the sorrow Death and birth and death and birth He says "Bring that bottle kindly And I'll pad your purse I've got a head full of quandary And a mighty mighty thirst" She's still defiant, but he reminds her of how much "men" have accomplished, for example with technological advances (like walking on the moon), and she needs to show some respect. But her words are starting to get to him, and in order to block it out, he'll send her out with some shopping money, and then get drunk to forget about everything. Seventeen glasses Rhine wine Milk of the Madonna Clandestine He don't let up the sorrow He lies and he cheats It takes a heart like Mary's these days When your man gets weak He's now drunk, after drinking 17 glasses of wine. But she's implying the wine is secretly ("clandestine") having the opposite affect to what he intended. It's "Milk of the Madonna" and will bring him round to her way of thinking. But although he knows the truth, he still insists that women should be subserviant to men ("he lies and he cheats"). She knows she has to be strong to stay and fight, and make him acknowledge the truth. Just my two cents, or probably more like $2.02! Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - now even MORE new and improved! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:38:31 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: interrupting my sorrow **Just my two cents, or probably more like $2.02! And it's the best $2.02 that *I've* ever spent, that's for sure! :~) Thanks for the great analysis Hell...I think you're spot on with almost all of it, and it makes sense in terms of being consistent with some of the other songs on HOSL...Harry's wife telling him to shove his house & his take home pay, and such. Bob NP: Joni, "Song For Sharon", Wembley 4/24/83 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 01:34:16 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Re: interrupting my sorrow On 21 Feb 2004 at 11:20, hell wrote: [...] > > So, looking at all the lyrics in turn, this is my interpretation: > > Don't interrupt the sorrow > [...] Hi, Hell, many many thanks for your *great* interpretation! Could I chime in? (I'm in time, I guess ;-) For the ... [...] " Petrified wood process > Tall timber down to rock" > > She finally says, "Right, I'm leaving...." and he, again somewhat > sarcastically, says "Sure, you're saying you're independent, liberated and > have been since you were seventeen. You might feel this rebellion, but so > what? Men have been dominant over women for thousands of years, and it will > take thousands more years before you have enough guts to actually leave." > [...] I find very good your observation about the thousands years, the long and hard road to liberation - as Bob adds: one must make oneself *strong*: as our Joni surely is and everyone of us is learning to. As is the "he" who dialogues here, it presents that road certainly like a rare and difficult way (as you Hell described so masterly in your previous post): it's maybe like trying to break some unavoidable chain > Death and birth and death and birth (as she sings in next stanza) I see too in "Petrified woods" the reference to toughness, to seemingly losing some life and solace in that process: certainly is one of our SIQUOMB's themes (I can't but recall "lovers in anger - block of ice") about the actual loss of ... well, maybe just a little green: after all there aren't too many flowers in the highest peaks, although there must be an awesome blue! In fact, what escapes me totally (its understanding) is the last stanza: I would like to hear more about our Madonna symbolism. The double reference to the nutritious and soothing, enduring power here, at the end of the song, is maybe a good counterbalance to the certain coldness or hardness of the "fighting Queen" who dominates the song, don't you? Anyway, I'd like to say it once more: thanks Hell! surely we missed you last november'n december! Have a Wonderful time! Yours: Emiliano NP: Guinevere, CS&N, San Francisco, '91 (thanks, Laurent!) PS: I can't recall many details from that play, "The petrified forest"... where does actually locates? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:56:08 +1300 From: "hell" Subject: Re: interrupting my sorrow Bob wrote: > Thanks for the great analysis Hell...I think you're spot on with almost > all of it, and it makes sense in terms of being consistent with some > of the other songs on HOSL...Harry's wife telling him to shove his > house & his take home pay, and such. I'm in a far too philosophical frame of mind for a Saturday! But I hadn't really thought of this song in the context of the whole album (which incidentally is my favourite), but there is a definite theme running here. Some very simplified definitions (all IMHO of course!): In France They Kiss On Main Street: The American suburban lifestyle is so staid and reserved compared to Europe - "they seem so removed from romance, they've been broken down in churches and schools, moulded to middle-class circumstance" and "a woman was fading in a suburban room". Years of pre-determined rules on how to behave - which is re-iterated in the last song on the album (Shadows and Light) in the line "compelled by prescribed standards". The Jungle Line: A little harder to interpret (and I'm not even going to try here!) but IMO it's describing the jungle-like nature of the inner-city. Edith and the Kingpin: Again, highlighting the way this man has dominance over women, using and abusing them, then casting them aside for something newer and brighter - "women he has taken grow old too soon", and "bars in her head" (she's caged by him). Following on from the The Jungle Line - he's a predator in the city's jungle with "all claws for now withdrawn". Don't Interrupt the Sorrow: Done that one! Shades of Scarlett Conquering: A woman getting vicarious joy out of watching movies, dreaming that her man could be as charming as Gable or Flynn. She's a strong Southern woman, and doesn't fit the suburban stereotype - the neighbours complaining about the noise when she challenges her man, so she doesn't feel like she really fits in. The Hissing of Summer Lawns: Quite possibly my favourite JM song. The ultimate suburban "trap". He's caught her, and placed her in a gilded cage (with Chippendales, etc.), with a "barbed wire fence", not only to "keep out the unknown" but to keep her in. She stays out of duty (and probably a little fear of the outside world as well), despite a restless desire to be free and to experience the unknown on the other side of the fence, which she can imagine to be anything she wants - "She patrols than fence of his to a latin drum" and "wonder makes it easy, with a joyful mask". The Boho Dance: Almost a defiant "anti-suburbia" song. She's celebrating the Bohemian underground (subterranean) lifestyle, even though she doesn't really fit in - "the cleaners press was in my jeans" and "any eye for detail caught a little lace along the seams". At the end of the song, she admits she didn't really suit the lifestyle, however much she wanted to - "the streets were never really mine, not mine these glamour gowns". Harry's House: As Bob already said, it's again the bored, frustrated housewife in DITS. But this time both husband and wife are feeling the same feeling of being trapped. He's off on the road with his boring job, staying in hotels with other men doing the same thing. They all have a wife and 2.5 kids at home, but they're getting their thrills watching the models in Bloomingdales (either real or mannequins), while she's at home looking after the kids, house and garden. But he's wistfully remembering her back when they first met, when she was young and tanned. Back then, she was opposed to the suburban lifestyle, but like many of her peers, ended up in the very situation she despised when she was young. Sweet Bird: I think this song follows on with the woman in Harry's House. It seems to me that the "sweet bird" is fate - laughing at how this woman has become what she despised. Buying beauty products in a futile attempt to stay young, and compromising her earlier principles more and more as time goes by, which segues nicely into the next song ("the ever-broken laws")..... Shadows and Light: This one is tough to interpret, because there's a LOT being said! But (to me) some of the key phrases are: "Devil of cruelty, devil of delight" and "God of cruelty, god of delight". Kind of saying that every action has it's good and bad points. For example, a suburban lifestyle may bring joy in having material possessions and a sense of "stability", but sorrow in losing your identity along the way. And this verse, "Critics of all expression, judges in black and white, saying it's wrong saying it's right, compelled by prescribed standards" is saying that whatever you do, there's never a set answer - some will say it's OK, some will say it's wrong, and in a lot of ways, we're bound by what our ancestors have determined to be "right". But I think the key phrase is: "Man of the laws, the ever-broken laws". No matter what rules we decide to live by, at some point they will be tested, or broken. As a whole, I think this album is really about Joni fighting against the suburban stereotype (and women's subservient role in that lifestyle) - probably something she had wistful thoughts about when she was younger, or as she had to think about "settling down" with someone. It seems almost like "she protests too much" and this was a way of coping with the conflict of maybe (even subconsciously) wanting that mundane lifestyle for a while, even though she may have condemned it aloud, rather than the more unpredictability of life as a musician, where she was on the road a lot of the time, and feeling unsettled. OK, that probably is at least a year's worth of posts in one go, so I'm going to shut up now! Hell ___________________________________ "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman Hell's Pages - now even MORE new and improved! http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:31:22 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Re: interrupting my sorrow Wow! You were inspired on this post, Helen. Nice job. I've heard an early, unreleased version where she has slightly more direct words, something like >all those other women> >all those white lines> all the best, Jim Hell in NZ said in part, >soul : an individual's true inner self that in the analytic psychology of C. G. Jung reflects archetypal ideals of conduct> He's now drunk, after drinking 17 glasses of wine. But she's implying the wine is secretly ("clandestine") having the opposite affect to what he intended.> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:46:30 -0300 From: "Caio Nehring" Subject: Love of my soul: beyond lyrics This is my first mail to all of you. I've been reading this beatiful flow of emails getting into my outlook for the last week, people interchanging and sharing his inner world full of Joni's music & beauty, compositions,achievements, facts, stories and history...and i must tell you that it has been kinda epiphanic to me. The same way Joni's music and voice has been an epiphany in my life for nearly 35 years...since i wanted to know who was that guy, Joni, who composed Woodstock, one of the tracks i liked best, from my new CSN&Y's Deja Vu LP. Somebody told me it wasn't a He: it was a She! I must tell you as well that i'm brazilian and by that time i did not speak english (!'m still learning...). If i wanted to understand what the lyrics meant, i had to get a good dictionary and work the lyrics out. When Tommy from The Who came out, it took somethin' like a month to understand what it was all about and i had 2 have a lot of help from a american girlfriend, livin' by then in Brazil, in a buddy's home, through one of those Fellowship programs (She would spend 6 months here with his family, to learn Portuguese and he would go to USA, doing the same and learning English.). Lori helped me a lot, explaining to me phrasal verbs, idiomatic expressions and all that... The astonishing thing and what really amazes me now (especially when i read all of you analysing Joni's lyrics and getting the "hidden meanings" beyond then.), is that for years, i listened to Joni's records whithout understanding what she was singing! I was bloody lazy when i was 16 years old and going to school everyday was enough for me. What seduced me on Ladies of the Canyon and Blue (i had to import the LP records and they cost me something like $50 today, a piece!), was her voice, the way she sang, her falsettos, the way of picking her guitar and the presence of Crosby, Stills and James Taylor here and there, my heroes by that time. Her music and where she took me was far more important to my body and ears and soul than 2 understand what she was singin' about. Basically "her sounds" were what seduced me, what put a definitive spell on me. By then i did not know how strong and full of meaning her lyrics (poetry) were. Only in 1976, when i went to live for some time in London, and bought Hejira as a Christmas gift 4 myself, i started ... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:50:26 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #49 --- Michael Sahno wrote: > Hi all, I am new here and it's nice to see this > group > out there discussing the work of the greatest female > songwriter of the 20th century! How 'bout just greatest songwriter? That works for me! Welcome, Michael - stick around for a while. > But wow, bummer that somebody on ebay is profiting > off > Joni's music, particularly unreleased material. Yes, and particularly material that they could get from people here for nothing but the cost of blanks and postage. Da noive of some people, eh? (I'd offer to do this myself but my CD burner software seems to keep messing up lately.) ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:15:29 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: interrupting my sorrow --- hell wrote: > > You know, after I sent that email, I realised I > hadn't actually discussed > what it means in the song - very remiss of me! ... and then went on to write a brilliant piece on the meaning of "Don't interrupt the sorrow." Well done, Hell! ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:18:33 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Love of my soul: beyond lyrics --- Caio Nehring wrote: > This is my first mail to all of you. > I've been reading this beatiful flow of emails > getting into my outlook for > the last week, people interchanging and sharing his > inner world full of > Joni's music & beauty, compositions,achievements, > facts, stories and > history...and i must tell you that it has been kinda > epiphanic to me. Welcome, Caio. It's great to have someone from Brazil here - it just goes to show how universal Joni's music and words are. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 04:40:17 -0000 From: "Mike Wood" Subject: Interrupting my sorrow I love these threads, and this is like heaven for me - one of my favourite songs from one of the great albums, and ambiguous and revealing new insights after all this time. Just two particular things - I had maybe been too too superficial about the petrified wood process but I just saw it as a statement about the man's view of the "immutable laws of nature" (including"male supremacy") - what was once living is now just coal and we burn it and use it at our leisure and "what are you bothering me with your anima stuff about, woman? - things aren't going to change because you agonise about them, you know!" I had to go back to the cover and read the words again to check the "I've got a head full of quandary and a mighty mighty thirst" lines because in listening to the song hundreds of times I'd always heard those lines as Joni's thoughts, not the man's words. I understand it better that way - she seems to be saying that the quandary is that she really should leave this guy to his delusions and his - er - maleness but on the other hand there is a bottle of wine (Liebfraumilch?) and possibly a good time to be had ... But it looks like I'm wrong if the transcription of the words is correct, because sure enough it's in quotation marks as the guy's words, and now I don't understand what his "head full of quandary" is! Whatever, nobody else does it like Joni. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 02:04:29 -0300 From: "Caio Nehring" Subject: Love of my soul: beyond lyrics Sorry, my youngest son, had to use the internet and sent by mistake the unfinished e-mail... "Only in 1976, when i went to live for some time in London, and bought Hejira as a Christmas gift 4 myself, i started to see the magnitude of Joni's lyrics. I was studying English and had American and English friends helping me to understand her lyrics in English first, and then, to translate then to portuguese, on my mind. A real piece of work, as you can imagine. Anyway, that's the magic of her Music to me: It goes beyond language and as the Universe, it's always expanding and has no limits. How many songwriters and composers'music can we hear throughout 30 years and still feel like it was the first wonderful time? And never get tired of hearing them? Not many. But Joni got it. She just does it. I could hear her music forever." Peace Caio pandora54@ig.com.br NP: Mysterious Traveller, Weather Report ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 02:16:47 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: February 21 On February 21 the following articles were published: 1972: "A Heavy Weekend for..." - Detroit Free Press (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=953 1978: "The Queens of Rock" - US (Biography, with photographs) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=391 1999: "Rocking and Renovating" - Los Angeles Times (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=909 2001: "Ballad of the Rude Canadian" - Toronto Globe and Mail (Review - Concert) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=613 2002: "Lifetime achievement Grammy for Joni Mitchell latest in long awards list" - Sympatico NewsExpress (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=939 - -------- Can you type? http://www.jmdl.com/typing/ ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #50 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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