From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #45 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, February 16 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 045 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- test ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] re - Michael from Mountains ["J.David Sapp" ] re - Michael from Mountains ["J.David Sapp" ] Michael to Cuctus Tree [Debra Worthington ] Torch Song? ["jlobello" ] Re: Torch Song? [AzeemAK@aol.com] RE: Torch Song? ["Richard Flynn" ] Re: Torch Song? [Randy Remote ] Re: Torch Song? [Catherine McKay ] Fwd: Torch Song? [Musicloverrick@aol.com] Man from Mars [Debra Worthington ] Torch Singer? JC ["Russell Bowden" ] Re: Torch Song? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Inquiry/information about site ["Caio Nehring" ] Re: Torch Song? ["jlobello" ] Re: Torch Song? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Playing problems follow up [Catherine McKay ] Re: Torch Song? [Debra Worthington ] Re: Torch Song? ["jlobello" ] Re: Torch Song? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Torch Song? [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Gordy ["jlobello" ] Larry speaks of Joni ["Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Gordy [Debi ] Re: Larry speaks of Joni [Catgirl ] Re: Larry speaks of Joni [David Sadowski ] Grace Slick exhibiting ["kakki" ] Today's Library Links: February 16 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Iron Eyes Cody Bio [David Sadowski ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:49:07 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: test You're back! Yah, your posts are getting through. We have some catching up to do. Did you buy TRAVELOGUE? Did you see the PBS special, "Joni Mitchell: A Woman of Heart And Mind"? Did you hear "Speechless" on THE COMPLETE GEFFEN RECORDINGS? All the best, Lama Jim L'Hommedieu >Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 09:46:12 -0800 (PST) From: Debra Worthington Subject: test NJC Hi, I keep sending emails and either no one wants to responsd to them or they are getting lost in space. I have not received in from in my email box....any thoughts? Debi> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:31:19 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: re - Michael from Mountains I've always loved this image: There's oil on the puddles in taffeta patterns That run down the drain In colored arrangements That Michael will change with a stick that he found Michael also serves as a counterpoint to King - and in her 1st 2 recorded songs foreshadows much of her future work. Leaving the dream no blame in Michael (There's no one to blame No there's no one to name as a traitor here); the tender hope of Michael as love sucks us back that way. Great stuff. peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 12:43:30 -0600 From: "J.David Sapp" Subject: re - Michael from Mountains I meant:I Leaving the dream no blame in KING (There's no one to blame No there's no one to name as a traitor heremeant: peace, david ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:32:38 -0800 (PST) From: Debra Worthington Subject: Michael to Cuctus Tree Someone mentioned Cactus Tree. This song creates alot of imagery for me as well. She thinks she wants them all....is she just a young full hearty girl or does she know a deeper truth about relationships and how it is easier to just want all of them and offer no commitment back? I think she is wiser then her young years portrait. She is very sage (or am I just old and calloused) to ask for nothing in return? She is just FREE..... Debi "J.David Sapp" wrote: I've always loved this image: There's oil on the puddles in taffeta patterns That run down the drain In colored arrangements That Michael will change with a stick that he found Michael also serves as a counterpoint to King - and in her 1st 2 recorded songs foreshadows much of her future work. Leaving the dream no blame in Michael (There's no one to blame No there's no one to name as a traitor here); the tender hope of Michael as love sucks us back that way. Great stuff. peace, david Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:34:41 -0500 From: "jlobello" Subject: Torch Song? Group: This morning I heard Kev Mo (is that right?) on NPR (weekend edition). He sounds great and reminds me of Taj Mahal. Speaking of the Taj-man, does anyone know what he's up to these days. I saw him live in '92 at the Ishpeming High School Auditorium--great performance! Torch song--What the hell is a Torch Song?. Michael gave examples of them in A Case of You and a bunch of others. I know that Blues and Folk (or at least "Joni-folk") are two different genres, but are Torch Songs supposed to be "blue" songs--sad, depressed, wanting, longing songs? In that way I would classify the whole "Blue" Album as the blues. Shoot, in my public library the Blue CD is classified as blues and is put in the blues section along with Muddy Waters and the like (those Yoopers, anyway!!). A few years ago when I was talking to a woman friend of mine, we started talking about "stalking", and how it was hyped by the media. She used Sting's I'll Be Watching You as an example of a stalking song. Will, musically I thought it was an OK song by Sting (it was certainly played enough back then), but that's as far as it went. I never thought of it in any other context. But, she was sure in her mind that Sting wrote it expressly to encourage guys to stalk women. Anyway.... So, I listen to Two Grey Rooms--I like it a lot-- and then I realize that this woman rents these two rooms just because they are located where she knows her ex-lover has to walk by going to and from work everyday (except weekends and holidays). Is that sick, or masochistic or both??!!!! I mean instead of suffering like that she should at least occassionally invite him up for coffee! So, is this a Torch Song? I know I'm going to generate some comments with that one. But, you all know I love Joni and I'm not trying to be super critical of her. Later, Jono ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:49:40 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Torch Song? In a message dated 15/02/2004 18:39:57 GMT Standard Time, jlobello@famvid.com writes: << Shoot, in my public library the Blue CD is classified as blues and is put in the blues section along with Muddy Waters and the like (those Yoopers, anyway!!) >> Well, categories and categorisation are tricky areas, and definitions can turn into typecasting; that said, I would offer my opinion that Blue (whose many merits I'm sure I don't need to expound here) is a long, long way from being a blues album, in any sense that I understand the term. Obviously my opinion is no more valuable than yours, Jono; as far as your library is concerned, however, I would venture that putting Blue in with Elmore, Muddy and Bessie is possibly simply the result of laziness or ignorance. "Hmmm, it's called Blue, so therefore it must go in the Blues section..." Reminds me of a brain-lazy radio DJ who introduced the latest single by Johnny Hates Jazz, one of the most anodyne and forgettable 80s pop groups, with the words "Now some jazz from Johnny Hates Jazz." Sorry mate, if that's jazz, I'm a banana! Azeem in London NP: Lou Reed - New York ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:09:39 -0500 From: "Richard Flynn" Subject: RE: Torch Song? Well, it certainly has it's bluesy moments! Oh it gets so lonely When you're walking And the streets are full of strangers All the news of home you read Just gives you the blues Just gives you the blues - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]On Behalf Of AzeemAK@aol.com Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 1:50 PM To: jlobello@famvid.com; joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Torch Song? In a message dated 15/02/2004 18:39:57 GMT Standard Time, jlobello@famvid.com writes: << Shoot, in my public library the Blue CD is classified as blues and is put in the blues section along with Muddy Waters and the like (those Yoopers, anyway!!) >> Well, categories and categorisation are tricky areas, and definitions can turn into typecasting; that said, I would offer my opinion that Blue (whose many merits I'm sure I don't need to expound here) is a long, long way from being a blues album, in any sense that I understand the term. Obviously my opinion is no more valuable than yours, Jono; as far as your library is concerned, however, I would venture that putting Blue in with Elmore, Muddy and Bessie is possibly simply the result of laziness or ignorance. "Hmmm, it's called Blue, so therefore it must go in the Blues section..." Reminds me of a brain-lazy radio DJ who introduced the latest single by Johnny Hates Jazz, one of the most anodyne and forgettable 80s pop groups, with the words "Now some jazz from Johnny Hates Jazz." Sorry mate, if that's jazz, I'm a banana! Azeem in London NP: Lou Reed - New York ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 11:46:04 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Torch Song? jlobello wrote: > This morning I heard Kev Mo (is that right?) on NPR (weekend edition). He > sounds great and reminds me of Taj Mahal. Speaking of the Taj-man, does anyone > know what he's up to these days. I saw Taj last summer. He was excellent. He lives in Kauai now, and his last album, as well as his current band, are infused with the Hawaiian sound, mixed with his own style. > Torch song--What the hell is a Torch Song?. According to Webster: Main Entry: torch song Function: noun Etymology: from the phrase to carry a torch for (to be in love) : a popular sentimental song of unrequited love > A few years ago when I was talking to a woman friend of mine, we started > talking about "stalking", and how it was hyped by the media. She used Sting's > I'll Be Watching You as an example of a stalking song. Will, musically I > thought it was an OK song by Sting (it was certainly played enough back then), > but that's as far as it went. I never thought of it in any other context. But, > she was sure in her mind that Sting wrote it expressly to encourage guys to > stalk women. Anyway.... In an interview shortly after leaving The Police, Sting said that although alot of people thought of it as a touching love song, he himself found it kind of creepy. To say he was encouraging guys to be stalkers, is, I think, getting a bit carried away. RR ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:10:46 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Torch Song? --- jlobello wrote: > Group: > This morning I heard Kev Mo (is that right?) on NPR > (weekend edition). He > sounds great and reminds me of Taj Mahal. Keb' Mo' (real name - Kevin Moore - kind of cute, eh? I love his singing and he does a version of Big Yellow Taxi too, I think, so there's a Joni connection. > > in my public library the > Blue CD is classified as blues and is put in the > blues section along with > Muddy Waters and the like (those Yoopers, anyway!!). It may qualify in terms of sadness, but to me, the Blues is also a particular style of music, and I don't think Joni's Blue is that. > A few years ago when I was talking to a woman friend > of mine, we started > talking about "stalking", and how it was hyped by > the media. She used Sting's > I'll Be Watching You as an example of a stalking > song. Will, musically I > thought it was an OK song by Sting (it was certainly > played enough back then), > but that's as far as it went. I never thought of it > in any other context. But, > she was sure in her mind that Sting wrote it > expressly to encourage guys to > stalk women. Anyway.... I don't think it was meant to encourage anyone to stalk anyone, but as a song about a stalker. I think Sting likes to put himself in other people's shoes, even creepy people's shoes! "Moon over Bourbon Street" was based on Anne Rice's vampire novels. > So, I listen to Two Grey Rooms--I like it a lot-- > and then I realize that this > woman rents these two rooms just because they are > located where she knows her > ex-lover has to walk by going to and from work > everyday (except weekends and > holidays). Is that sick, or masochistic or > both??!!!! I mean instead of > suffering like that she should at least > occassionally invite him up for > coffee! Yeah, Two Grey Rooms does sound kind of stalker-y, except for the fact that she's just watching him and not communicating with him. Maybe it's more of a "voyeur" song, LOL. It sounds like an old lover that she was with a long time ago, but they broke up and now maybe they've both moved on, but time has gone by and she has kind of gotten obsessed with him again. Ever look up old girlfriends even if it's just to see if their names are still in the phonebook? ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:26:45 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Torch Song? Return-path: From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Full-name: Musicloverrick Message-ID: <160.2b9cdf8c.2d612fa4@aol.com> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:25:08 EST Subject: Re: Torch Song? To: anima_rising@yahoo.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 6800 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/related by demime 0.97c-p1 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was multipart/alternative I just think it's impossible to really classify Joni....I mean she uses so many different influences and styles in her music, I couldn't personally think of where to put any of her albums.&nbsp; They should just create a new section for artists like her.....Does anyone agree?&nbsp; Rick NP Natalie Cole, "Route 66" [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:24:54 -0800 (PST) From: Debra Worthington Subject: Man from Mars Hello, I was listening to Man from Mars- this version is just her and the piano and her voice of course. I was so relived when I found out years ago that the song is about her cat and not a man. *I fall apart- every time I think of you swallowed by the dark, there is no center to my life now, no grace in my heart*. No man deserves to have someone *fall apart* over. Like Myrtle said to Joni *SNAP OUT OF IT!*. But a cat on the other hand..... Debi previously known as Catgirl >^..^< Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:39:41 -0800 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: Torch Singer? JC Aloha, Gang, I've always considered Our Queen to be more of a singer in the French art song or German lieder type of chanteuse. She does sing some torch songs, but that doesn't mean she's necessarily a torch singer...IMHYEO (in my humble yet educated opinion). I'm totally behind the song 'Last Chance Lost' as a modern classic chantuese-y class of song....I LOVE it...Pardon me as I have a slight swoon fest. Beautfiful day here in Honolulu. Russ AKA Passion Fruit NP: MAHLER'S 4TH SYMPHONY 3RD MOMVEMENT, VIENNA PHILHARMONIC, LOREN MAAZEL: CONDUCTER - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Find great local high-speed Internet access value at the MSN High-Speed Marketplace. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 19:07:11 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Torch Song? **but are Torch Songs supposed to be "blue" songs--sad, depressed, wanting, longing songs? In that way I would classify the whole "Blue" Album as the blues. ** Hmmm, well let's see. As most have said you can't classify Blue as the Blues, not by song structure anyway. I think it's even erroneous to say that all or even most of the songs are sad & depressiing. I WOULD say that they are all intense in their own way, they are all brutally honest and evoke strong emotions, but I would not say they're all "sad" songs: "All I Want" and "My Old Man" are buoyant, almost joyous love songs. "Little Green" is of course full of melancholy but also full of hope, especially if you don't know the story behind it. "Carey" is another upbeat and fun celebration-type song. The title track is unabashedly a mournful song, no doubt about it. A sad song. But then it's followed by 2 that aren't sad, "California" & "This Flight Tonight"...so we're 7 songs into a 10-track record and we've only heard 1 SAD song. Next up is "River", another sad one, but then there's "A Case of You" which is no doubt a beautiful and a damn-near perfect love song, but it's as much as a declaration of love as it is a torch song of love lost. And then comes "Last Time I Saw Richard" which I would also stop short of calling a 'sad' song. Philosophical, introspective, personal, honest...but sad? I dunno. I think the cover of the record and the intense honest emotions that Joni pours out all over it can give the impression that the whole record is sad. But to simply call it sad or depressing is to sell it short - I think it goes MUCH deeper than that for the most part. Bob NP: Courtney Love, "Hello" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:16:00 -0300 From: "Caio Nehring" Subject: Inquiry/information about site Is there any e-mail adress i can use to clear any questions i may have about joni, her songs and anything else i wanted to know? I could not find any link at jmdl , something like "talk to us", or "get in touch" you usually find on most sites. Would you please help me? thanx a lot Caio Nehring ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:44:21 -0500 From: "jlobello" Subject: Re: Torch Song? Bob I'd knew I'd generate comments with those statement--but I'd would have thought I'd get a rise out of you about my comment on Two Grey Rooms--comparing it (indirectly) to I'll Be Watching You by Sting. For the most part I agree with you about the songs on Blue, with the exception of Little Green and This Flight Tonight. This Flight Tonight expresses a huge amount of regret for getting on that stupid plane in the first place--it's a song of escape instead of trying to deal with her problems head on--and the regret that her decision to leave generated. Little Green, although it does express some hope, it makes me want to cry every time I here it. This one song alone is the expression of the biggest mistake Joni had ever made in her life, and the self blame and self recrimination that she suffered because of that decision. She should have told Chuck Mitchell to go to hell on their wedding night when he dropped his "bombshell" on her. This is the one life changing event that changed her forever. This is the one event that I would try to circumvent if I had the capability to time travel (don't laugh). It is probably the one event that caused Joni to retreat within herself and become so creative with all the great music she brought forth. None the less, it's still heartbreaking. Fortunately there was a happy ending, but those two (her and Kilauren) still have their unpleasant moments together. None the less if it was within my power I would try to insure her happiness, and would gladly forego all the wonderful music she produced. Jono ----- Original Message ----- From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com To: jlobello@famvid.com ; joni@smoe.org Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Torch Song? **but are Torch Songs supposed to be "blue" songs--sad, depressed, wanting, longing songs? In that way I would classify the whole "Blue" Album as the blues. ** Hmmm, well let's see. As most have said you can't classify Blue as the Blues, not by song structure anyway. I think it's even erroneous to say that all or even most of the songs are sad & depressiing. I WOULD say that they are all intense in their own way, they are all brutally honest and evoke strong emotions, but I would not say they're all "sad" songs: "All I Want" and "My Old Man" are buoyant, almost joyous love songs. "Little Green" is of course full of melancholy but also full of hope, especially if you don't know the story behind it. "Carey" is another upbeat and fun celebration-type song. The title track is unabashedly a mournful song, no doubt about it. A sad song. But then it's followed by 2 that aren't sad, "California" & "This Flight Tonight"...so we're 7 songs into a 10-track record and we've only heard 1 SAD song. Next up is "River", another sad one, but then there's "A Case of You" which is no doubt a beautiful and a damn-near perfect love song, but it's as much as a declaration of love as it is a torch song of love lost. And then comes "Last Time I Saw Richard" which I would also stop short of calling a 'sad' song. Philosophical, introspective, personal, honest...but sad? I dunno. I think the cover of the record and the intense honest emotions that Joni pours out all over it can give the impression that the whole record is sad. But to simply call it sad or depressing is to sell it short - I think it goes MUCH deeper than that for the most part. Bob NP: Courtney Love, "Hello" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 21:07:10 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Torch Song? **I'd knew I'd generate comments with those statement--but I'd would have thought I'd get a rise out of you about my comment on Two Grey Rooms--comparing it (indirectly) to I'll Be Watching You by Sting.** I thought it was a neat observation...two melodically hypnotic stalking songs, except with Sting's "Every Move You Make" I always felt like it was a post-breakup song where he had had a prior relationship, whereas in Two Grey Rooms the character is obsessed with someone that they never met. Both are superb songs, needless to say. **Little Green, although it does express some hope, it makes me want to cry every time I hear it. This one song alone is the expression of the biggest mistake Joni had ever made in her life** Well, it certainly has that effect on me NOW, but it didn't before I knew the truth behind it. That's why I said what I did as a conditional comment. And not to be cynical, but would Joni's career taken the same path had she not put her baby up for adoption? She probably would have accepted a menial-paying job to support them both and that would have been that and her body of work, especially as it is, would not exist. I'm not saying that her decision was a 'mistake' or not (I would tend to define it as a supreme sacrificial act of bravery & love), it's just the way things played out, and thankfully she got her happy ending, and Kilauren's adoptive parents were given a blessing that they otherwise would not have had. Bob NP: Kelly Joe Phelps, "Taylor John" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:06:09 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Playing problems follow up --- don whiteman wrote: > I have had the nerve conduction study done on my > left arm and I have moderate > damage to my ulnar nerve. > > I sought a second opinion and visited a neuro > surgeon last wednesday. he ran a > long series of tests and I failed dismally on each. > The bottom line was that I need surgery. They will > perfom a medial > epicondylectomy next Friday. The recovery time is > around 6-10 weeks. However > he said that I should get about 80% feeling back in > my finger tips. Best of luck with this, Don, and please let us know how it works out. I've had problems with carpal tunnel syndrome, which isn't quite the same, I guess, but sometimes my fingers go numb when I'm playing the guitar and it really is very annoying and I hope it doesn't get worse. I seem to get some relief if I do exercises with my hands and try to avoid keeping them in the same position all the time. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:01:40 -0800 (PST) From: Debra Worthington Subject: Re: Torch Song? Hi Bob and everyone, Nice to be back with the family...sorry for being away so long...kinda like college. Well, Little Green is a great song. In my opinion there is just no way that if Joni did keep her child that she would have forgotten about her music. There is just no way. She is like a Mozart, or a Picasso, or a Beethoven. She needed to express. With the catalogs of music that she has written, I could not comprehend her not doing something with her gift. Just imagine little Kelly hanging out with Mom and Graham. All that love. I wouldn't be surprised if she would have married Graham and had more children. I think Kelly might have made her settle down rather then stunted her talent. I think Joni was too young and scared to death to make it on her own with a little chld to raise. And the era that she came from, I don't blame her. Things today are so much different. The main thing though is she did what she did and made alot of great music on her journey. And for that she is the most amazing woman that ever lived! Debi SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote: **I'd knew I'd generate comments with those statement--but I'd would have thought I'd get a rise out of you about my comment on Two Grey Rooms--comparing it (indirectly) to I'll Be Watching You by Sting.** I thought it was a neat observation...two melodically hypnotic stalking songs, except with Sting's "Every Move You Make" I always felt like it was a post-breakup song where he had had a prior relationship, whereas in Two Grey Rooms the character is obsessed with someone that they never met. Both are superb songs, needless to say. **Little Green, although it does express some hope, it makes me want to cry every time I hear it. This one song alone is the expression of the biggest mistake Joni had ever made in her life** Well, it certainly has that effect on me NOW, but it didn't before I knew the truth behind it. That's why I said what I did as a conditional comment. And not to be cynical, but would Joni's career taken the same path had she not put her baby up for adoption? She probably would have accepted a menial-paying job to support them both and that would have been that and her body of work, especially as it is, would not exist. I'm not saying that her decision was a 'mistake' or not (I would tend to define it as a supreme sacrificial act of bravery & love), it's just the way things played out, and thankfully she got her happy ending, and Kilauren's adoptive parents were given a blessing that they otherwise would not have had. Bob NP: Kelly Joe Phelps, "Taylor John" Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:15:59 -0500 From: "jlobello" Subject: Re: Torch Song? Bob, I think that her initiative and drive would have overcome such obstacles (such as menial jobs), and eventually her parents would have helped her out with the child despite moral sensibilities of that time. Remember, those "times were a'changing". Sure, her body of work would have been different, but I feel that she would have shined just as brightly. Once Elliot Roberts ran into her, her problems would have been over-kid or not. That guy was (and still) is nuts about her, and would have gone to bat for her under any circumstance. Once she'd made it out to Laurel Canyon she probably would have ended marrying Graham (or David?--nah!), and raised her kid. Would she have ended up "kicking the kitchen door off it's hinges" like her paternal (great) grandmother did? I doubt it. Naaah! She has too much drive and motivation, not to mention her talent, to let that happen. She would have kept on pluggin', and her daughter might have been singing with her right now. Speaking of which, do you think that could still happen? Kilauren sounds just like her, but can she sing? Jono ----- Original Message ----- From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com To: jlobello@famvid.com ; joni@smoe.org Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 9:07 PM Subject: Re: Torch Song? **I'd knew I'd generate comments with those statement--but I'd would have thought I'd get a rise out of you about my comment on Two Grey Rooms--comparing it (indirectly) to I'll Be Watching You by Sting.** I thought it was a neat observation...two melodically hypnotic stalking songs, except with Sting's "Every Move You Make" I always felt like it was a post-breakup song where he had had a prior relationship, whereas in Two Grey Rooms the character is obsessed with someone that they never met. Both are superb songs, needless to say. **Little Green, although it does express some hope, it makes me want to cry every time I hear it. This one song alone is the expression of the biggest mistake Joni had ever made in her life** Well, it certainly has that effect on me NOW, but it didn't before I knew the truth behind it. That's why I said what I did as a conditional comment. And not to be cynical, but would Joni's career taken the same path had she not put her baby up for adoption? She probably would have accepted a menial-paying job to support them both and that would have been that and her body of work, especially as it is, would not exist. I'm not saying that her decision was a 'mistake' or not (I would tend to define it as a supreme sacrificial act of bravery & love), it's just the way things played out, and thankfully she got her happy ending, and Kilauren's adoptive parents were given a blessing that they otherwise would not have had. Bob NP: Kelly Joe Phelps, "Taylor John" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:31:23 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Torch Song? **but are Torch Songs supposed to be "blue" songs--sad, depressed, wanting, longing songs? In that way I would classify the whole "Blue" Album as the blues. ** Hmmm, well let's see. As most have said you can't classify Blue as the Blues, not by song structure anyway. I think it's even erroneous to say that all or even most of the songs are sad & depressiing. I WOULD say that they are all intense in their own way, they are all brutally honest and evoke strong emotions, but I would not say they're all "sad" songs: "All I Want" and "My Old Man" are buoyant, almost joyous love songs. "Little Green" is of course full of melancholy but also full of hope, especially if you don't know the story behind it. "Carey" is another upbeat and fun celebration-type song. The title track is unabashedly a mournful song, no doubt about it. A sad song. But then it's followed by 2 that aren't sad, "California" & "This Flight Tonight"...so we're 7 songs into a 10-track record and we've only heard 1 SAD song. Next up is "River", another sad one, but then there's "A Case of You" which is no doubt a beautiful and a damn-near perfect love song, but it's as much as a declaration of love as it is a torch song of love lost. And then comes "Last Time I Saw Richard" which I would also stop short of calling a 'sad' song. Philosophical, introspective, personal, honest...but sad? I dunno. I think the cover of the record and the intense honest emotions that Joni pours out all over it can give the impression that the whole record is sad. But to simply call it sad or depressing is to sell it short - I think it goes MUCH deeper than that for the most part. Bob NP: Courtney Love, "Hello" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:38:23 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Torch Song? **In my opinion there is just no way that if Joni did keep her child that she would have forgotten about her music. ** Yeah, it's pure speculation, but I agree with you. But it IS safe to say that she would not have written "Little Green"! :~) Glad you have you back in the college of Joni knowledge! Seems like old times. Bob NP: Joni, "Two Grey Rooms" (demo) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 00:16:03 -0500 From: "jlobello" Subject: Gordy All, Picked up a Gordon Lightfoot CD from the library today (a painter passing through). It's an older album ('98) but good. I wonder if he's still putting them out. Heard him on Mountain Stage a few years back. He sounded great. I also picked up Steeleye Span (spanning the years) and a CD called Hard Cash with a bunch of British folks artist on it. June Tabor has two cuts on that album--if it wasn't for her accent, she'd sound very much like Joni. I believe I have heard June Tabor on the Thistle and Shamrock (MCd by Theona Richie on NPR). I heard Judith Owens on Mountain Stage this evening--she's a pretty jazzy lady (Welch too, I think). I also heard Bruce Coburn tonight on the same program. Laura Nero and a bunch of other people have been on that NPR program. Does anyone on the list listen to Mountain Stage besides me? Will if your Public Radio Station gets it, listen. It's a great show. Jono ----- Original Message ----- From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com To: debi627327@yahoo.com ; jlobello@famvid.com ; joni@smoe.org Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 11:38 PM Subject: Re: Torch Song? **In my opinion there is just no way that if Joni did keep her child that she would have forgotten about her music. ** Yeah, it's pure speculation, but I agree with you. But it IS safe to say that she would not have written "Little Green"! :~) Glad you have you back in the college of Joni knowledge! Seems like old times. Bob NP: Joni, "Two Grey Rooms" (demo) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 00:51:37 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Larry speaks of Joni In a search on the string "Larry Klein", I found his account of the Iron Eyes Cody story. It's simpler than Joni's account and the order of events is completely different. "What's the craziest Joni Mitchell story you tell can me without her getting mad?" Larry said, >"She's always had a serendipitous, mystical sense of timing, which has always astounded me. There was one incident where we were working on a song we'd written together for a record of hers. At a certain point, she wanted to go down the street to this American Indian antique convention at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium. I said, Oh no, you can't go down there. You'll be there for hours and we're on the clock here. Then all of sudden, BOOM! Lightning struck somewhere around the studio and the power went out. So everything had to be reset, and there were some problems with the console. So she said, Okay, I'm going down to the Indian event. I started dreading that she would be there for hours, but almost about the same time that we got everything up and running, she returned. With her was an Indian movie actor, Iron Eyes Cody, who had been in all these John Wayne movies and other westerns. So we ended up incorporating him chanting over this song [Lakota, from Chalkmark in a Rain Storm], which ended up working out really well. But it was this chain of weird, synchronystic, serendipitous events that led to her coming back with this Indian chief.> http://mixonline.com/ar/audio_larry_klein_doing/ BTW, as I read this, he names which vocal mic is on TRAVELOGUE: "What are some of the mics you really like?" Larry said, >It depends on the singer and the project, but there are a lot of different ones I really like. I got an AKG C-12 that I love. The mic we're using on Joni for this record is an old Telefunken 251; it's a beautiful-sounding mic. There's also the Neumann 149, a new version of the old M49 tube mic, that I use on a lot of things.> "Who have you learned the most from since you started producing?" >I think I've learned more from the artists that I've worked with than from other producers. I have to say more than anyone else Joni  she taught me a lot about producing. She's sort of my philosophical/production mentor.> All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu Lama ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:13:31 -0800 (PST) From: Debi Subject: Re: Gordy Jono. I live in the Philly region and on WXPN, 88.5, they have Mountain Stage. I haven't heard it in a while. I just never seem to catch the show when it is on the radio but do enjoy it when I have had. I heard David Bern on there years back and then saw him at the Philly Folk Festival. He performed on Friday night and did a song about aliens procreating with monkeys. It was a very funny song but the word he used and with the little folk around, well lets just say this, he will never return to the Philly Folk Festival again. Debi jlobello wrote: All, Picked up a Gordon Lightfoot CD from the library today (a painter passing through). It's an older album ('98) but good. I wonder if he's still putting them out. Heard him on Mountain Stage a few years back. He sounded great. I also picked up Steeleye Span (spanning the years) and a CD called Hard Cash with a bunch of British folks artist on it. June Tabor has two cuts on that album--if it wasn't for her accent, she'd sound very much like Joni. I believe I have heard June Tabor on the Thistle and Shamrock (MCd by Theona Richie on NPR). I heard Judith Owens on Mountain Stage this evening--she's a pretty jazzy lady (Welch too, I think). I also heard Bruce Coburn tonight on the same program. Laura Nero and a bunch of other people have been on that NPR program. Does anyone on the list listen to Mountain Stage besides me? Will if your Public Radio Station gets it, listen. It's a great show. Jono - ----- Original Message ----- From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com To: debi627327@yahoo.com ; jlobello@famvid.com ; joni@smoe.org Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 11:38 PM Subject: Re: Torch Song? **In my opinion there is just no way that if Joni did keep her child that she would have forgotten about her music. ** Yeah, it's pure speculation, but I agree with you. But it IS safe to say that she would not have written "Little Green"! :~) Glad you have you back in the college of Joni knowledge! Seems like old times. Bob NP: Joni, "Two Grey Rooms" (demo) *It's all a dream, she has awoke* Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:45:17 -0800 (PST) From: Catgirl Subject: Re: Larry speaks of Joni Wow, what a great story. That has to be my favorite off of the lp. She speaks the plight of the Native Americans so clearly and powerfully in that song. I remember listening to that lp when I first got it and when I heard that song, I got all goose bumpy and felt so connected to Joni. She can paint such clarity in her songs. If you never seen the video it is a must! Debi "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: In a search on the string "Larry Klein", I found his account of the Iron Eyes Cody story. It's simpler than Joni's account and the order of events is completely different. "What's the craziest Joni Mitchell story you tell can me without her getting mad?" Larry said, >"She's always had a serendipitous, mystical sense of timing, which has always astounded me. There was one incident where we were working on a song we'd written together for a record of hers. At a certain point, she wanted to go down the street to this American Indian antique convention at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium. I said, Oh no, you can't go down there. You'll be there for hours and we're on the clock here. Then all of sudden, BOOM! Lightning struck somewhere around the studio and the power went out. So everything had to be reset, and there were some problems with the console. So she said, Okay, I'm going down to the Indian event. I started dreading that she would be there for hours, but almost about the same time that we got everything up and running, she returned. With her was an Indian movie actor, Iron Eyes Cody, who had been in all these John Wayne movies and other westerns. So we ended up incorporating him chanting over this song [Lakota, from Chalkmark in a Rain Storm], which ended up working out really well. But it was this chain of weird, synchronystic, serendipitous events that led to her coming back with this Indian chief.> http://mixonline.com/ar/audio_larry_klein_doing/ BTW, as I read this, he names which vocal mic is on TRAVELOGUE: "What are some of the mics you really like?" Larry said, >It depends on the singer and the project, but there are a lot of different ones I really like. I got an AKG C-12 that I love. The mic we're using on Joni for this record is an old Telefunken 251; it's a beautiful-sounding mic. There's also the Neumann 149, a new version of the old M49 tube mic, that I use on a lot of things.> "Who have you learned the most from since you started producing?" >I think I've learned more from the artists that I've worked with than from other producers. I have to say more than anyone else Joni  she taught me a lot about producing. She's sort of my philosophical/production mentor.> All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu Lama *It's all a dream, she has awoke* Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 00:54:12 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Re: Larry speaks of Joni It gets better. After Iron Eyes Cody died, it was revealed that he may not have been an American Indian after all. Do a Google search... one article is titled "Iron Eyes Cody, Wannabe Indian." This bit of historical trivia also figured into the plot of an episode of The Sopranos... looks like Cody may have been Italian American. Catgirl wrote: >Wow, what a great story. That has to be my favorite off of the lp. She speaks the plight of the Native Americans so clearly and powerfully in that song. I remember listening to that lp when I first got it and when I heard that song, I got all goose bumpy and felt so connected to Joni. She can paint such clarity in her songs. If you never seen the video it is a must! >Debi > >"Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" wrote: >In a search on the string "Larry Klein", I found his account of the Iron >Eyes Cody story. It's simpler than Joni's account and the order of events >is completely different. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 23:02:10 -0800 From: "kakki" Subject: Grace Slick exhibiting Sorry in advance for not putting njc on this one, but with so many Grace fans here I don't want to miss anyone (and hmmm, one never knows who may come to this event ;-) From L.A. Times 2/15/04 Meet and See The Artwork of Grace Slick Thursday Evening, February 19th, 7-10 p.m. at Art One Gallery in Westwood, CA 1036 Broxton Avenue http://www.artonegallery.com (Shown is a photo of Grace and the gallery owner, plus a very cool painting of Alice in Wonderful holding hands with an enormous white rabbit) "Best known as the rebellious rocker of the sixties, Grace Slick now prefers a paintbrush to a microphone. Her artwork has been very well-received by collectors as well as critics. Due to the high demand and heavy tour schedule, Grace's personal appearances are very limited. This is an opportunity to meet one of rock's icons. We will be showing the Wonderland Suite. Using her love of animals combined with a certain attitude, Grace has created a wonderful group of characters from Wonderland. Other works to be shown include very intense and colorful portraits. Jimi Hendrix, Jerry Garcia, Janis Joplin and Sting are subjects of some of her paintings. The portraits have a special edge that only Grace can give them." Oooo! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 02:13:04 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: February 16 On February 16 the following articles were published: 2000: "Both Sides Now" - Rolling Stone (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=444 2000: "Mitchell Jazz CD Drips with Finesse" - Orange County Register (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=457 - -------- Can you type? http://www.jmdl.com/typing/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 01:20:05 -0600 From: David Sadowski Subject: Iron Eyes Cody Bio Iron Eyes Cody Born in Gueydan, Louisiana/USA April 3, 1907 Died: January 4, 1999 Biography When Iron Eyes Cody died in 1999, he was eulogized as possibly the most famous American Indian actor ever. As the teary-eyed Crying Indian in a series of 1960s Keep America Beautiful public service announcements, he became one of the most prominent spokesman for environmentalism. Most newspaper accounts recounted how this Oklahoma born son of Thomas Longplume Cody came to Hollywood in its infancy and became one of its first and most enduring Indian actors. As a part-Cherokee, part-Cree actor he was not only an actor in numerous westerns, but also a technical advisor and spokesman for Native American causes. However, this commonly accepted biography of Iron Eyes Cody is almost certainly false, and he was in fact a second-generation Italian-American from Louisiana. The motive for his deception is not clear, but neither is his story merely just one of the more fanciful fictions that many Hollywood stars have concocted for themselves over the years. In actuality, Cody was born Espera DeCorti in Gueydan, Louisiana, the son Italian immigrants Antonio DeCorti and Francesca Salpietra. Known to everyone as Oscar, Cody endured the break-up of his family when his father, a small-town grocer, ran off abandoning his wife and children. His mother remarried and bore five more children, eventually relocating to Texas where his stepfather found work among the oil refineries. Cody, and his brothers Joe and Frank DeCorti, reconciled with their biological father, before setting off for Los Angeles under the shortened last name of Corti. All three brothers eventually tried their hand at acting, but it was only Cody who stuck with it, fashioning the now familiar fictitious heritage and history that he was the son of a rodeo performer with Buffalo Bill Cody's traveling Wild West Show. Cody quickly found work in silent films and worked steadily for decades into the advanced age of over 90. While the American public and press apparently bought his fictitious persona until the end, there were apparently Native American actors, including Jay Silverheels, that did not believe it, but they kept quiet for various reasons, including not wanting to cast negative light on Native Americans. Whatever Cody may have lacked in blood-lines, he certainly made up for it to a great extent in Native American spirit, for he lived a simple lifestyle, and gave generously all his life to Native American causes, giving countless dollars to tribal schools and orphanages, and devoting countless hours to charitable work. Although he himself may not have been a Native American, his wife Bertha Parker Cody, and his two adopted children certainly were. Bertha, a well-educated daughter of a prominent Seneca family, was an archeologist, and together they served as technical advisors for various westerns, and even hosted a TV show on Native American lore during the 1950s. While his film career spans eight decades from the 1919 Back to God's Country, through classics such as Broken Arrow, Paleface, and Springtime in the Rockies, and all the way to the late 1980's Ernest Goes to Camp, Codys story is at least as interesting for the fiction he made reality, and the people who helped him preserve it. ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #45 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)