From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #16 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Monday, January 19 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 016 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: What do we all do for a living (VLJC) [rholliston@HighSpeedPlus.com] Re: Joni's song, "The Arrangement" [Rick and Susan ] Re: C&S in Grammy Hall of Fame [Bobsart48@aol.com] RE: On Inventing chords [Howard ] Re: On Inventing chords (+ modulation in Joni's guitar songs) [Howard ] For A Living and Political sound bites..JC ["Russell Bowden" ] Today in History: January 19 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] Today's Library Links: January 19 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 04:22:05 -0800 From: rholliston@HighSpeedPlus.com Subject: RE: What do we all do for a living (VLJC) Good one, Jenny! I teach classes in Music History, Accompanying, and Chamber Music in a Canadian Conservatory/College. Also, I work for the local Opera Company, training the chorus, playing piano for staging rehearsals, and giving educational lectures for the audience. Joni content? Always, when I'm talking about Canadian musicians. Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 07:15:16 -0800 From: Rick and Susan Subject: Re: Joni's song, "The Arrangement" On 1/16/04 8:52 PM, SCJoniGuy@aol.com wrote > **Joni did write "The Arrangement" for Elia Kazan's film of the same name. > Thanks for verifying my suspicions, Simon. What is your statement based on? > Not that I'm doubting you, because I don't. I'm just curious as to the > confirming source. In a concert I saw in 1969 or 70, Joni introduced The Arrangement by saying she had written it for the movie but they had decided not to use it. She said she still thought it was a good song so she'd sing it anyway. Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:28:02 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: C&S in Grammy Hall of Fame Bob Muller wrote: (A sidenote...I REALLY think it's cool that Joni & Tom Scott won the Grammy for best arrangement for "Down To You". Grammy's made lots of royal screw-ups (Milli Vanilli anyone?) but sometimes they nail it) Thanks for the reply and the full listing, Bob. I agree with you about Down To You, and would nominate the two-song sequence of Car On A Hill and Down To You as the "best two consecutive song arrangements accompanying vocalists" ever in the history of the Grammies. bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:36:47 +0000 From: Howard Subject: RE: On Inventing chords This has been a really interesting thread! Les' point comparing her piano and guitar styles on LOTC is a good one. I think there is a greater complexity to ger guitar harmonies here, mostly due to the open tunings. The piano songs are somewhat simpler in terms of harmony. One thing to keep in mind - even though Joni often uses simple chord shapes, the fact that some of these shapes combine fretted notes with open strings means that the same shape moved up and down the neck can create quite different harmonies. This is true even for standard tuning - - if you play 355400 you get G6. Move it up two frets (577600) you have Aadd2, move it up two more and you get Badd4. The harmonic flavour of the chord changes (6 -> add2 -> add4) even though the shape is the same. But, the piano songs do have a harmonic style that's well defined and distinct from her guitar songs. Her piano harmonies have a lot of chords with altered bass notes (E/A, A/B etc). This is one of the defining features of her piano harmonies - triads in the right hand with different bass notes in the left. This is "complex harmony" to some extent, but it's quite different from the guitar chords she uses which tend to be more unusual beats (added 4ths, 6ths, 9ths...). The question Marian and Kate touched on - her different guitar styles in the "early" and "later" years - is also interesting. Marian wrote: > I just think the guitar playing on the early albums is more to be admired. And Kate responded: > Do you think this has anything to do with her switching from acoustic to electric guitar? When playing the electric, her style is certainly different. But personally, I think the change in her right-hand technique (intricate picking, then more rhythmic strumming/slapping) came about on the acoustic. I've read a quote from her around the time of "Blue" where she talks about slapping the strings of the acoustic for the first time. I think this was the start of her style change. I think this shift carried on developing, and by the time of Night Ride Home the change was pretty much complete. Personally, I love her later style - the way she manages to combine a mini percussion section with the strumming, by tapping and slapping the strings, is a source of constant wonder to me. I'm a sucker for poly-rhythms and off-beat stuff, and Joni is an unsung master of this when it comes to right-hand strumming technique. It took me a long time to be able to approximate this style. After many months, I started to get my version of Cherokee Louise to work and sound right (for some reason, this song always seems to be the classic case of her right hand technique). Any recent (last 10 years) version of Joni doing a live version of CL on acoustic is a masterclass in her right-hand style! There might even be a connection in the shift in her painting style. The cover to her first album - covered in fine detail, is a visual match for her intricate picking style. A single line (or guitar note) out of place could be enough to affect the piece. Later on, her guitar style is an audio equivalent of using broader brush strokes - less concerned with the exact details of which string to hit at each precise point, but more concerned with rhythmic, dynamic and textural effects. The analogy with her painting can't be taken too literally, but the amount of fine detail is certainly much, much less in her later paintings. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:31:19 +0000 From: Howard Subject: Re: On Inventing chords (+ modulation in Joni's guitar songs) I'm still catching up on all this great discussion...! > Marian wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:02:41 -0800, Randy Remote > wrote: > > >But I would say off the top of my head that a majority of her songs > >modulate out of the parent key at some point, and that is one of the > >things that makes them interesting. Even her earliest songs like > >"Urge For Going" did this. Hopefully I'm using the term 'modulate' > >properly. > > No, none of her guitar songs (that I can think of) modulate out of the parent key - not > even UFG. Sometimes the chord progressions are unusual. Sometimes the parent key is not > always necessarily the tonic. But her chord progressions are fairly standard for the most > part, it's just the chords themselves that are unusual, because of the suspensions, 7ths, > 9ths, 13ths, etc. I think her more recent guitar songs tend to stick to more common chord changes (Crazy Cries of Love is a good example). But overall I agree with Randy - that a lot of her songs do modulate or throw in some unusual chord changes. I think this is true for piano and guitar songs - it's just that her recent guitar work has moved back to somewhat simpler changes (as well as simpler chord shapes). A few examples: Amelia - simplified names for the intro chords are Dm C/E F Bb/F F. With the emphasis on the F chord, this seems to set up a key of F major quite strongly. Then, first chord of the verse: G major! Then there's a B minor later on - both of these are outside of F major. The key seems to drift a while, before settling back into F for the chorus (repeat of intro chords). So overall, the key seems to be G (mostly) for the verse, and F for the chorus. Hejira - most of the this sticks to the key of C,m with the main changes based on C, F and G chords (all be it chords with added 2nds, 4ths etc!). But in the intro you have Eb6/9 - an outsider for C major. Don't Interrupt the sorrow - the intro wanders, and suggests a few keys, before settling down with chords centred around C and G. After a few more lines in the verse, it shifts to Eb/Ab and then F/Bb - outside the G or C sound. There are plenty of songs doing this kind of thing. Some have more prolonged or exaggerated shifts of key, some only do it very briefly (like the brief F major in People's Parties, which is otherwise firmly in D major), and some don't stray at all outside the basic key. But there are definitely plenty of guitar and piano songs that do modulate and drift between keys. That's one of the many things that's attracted me to Joni's music - the occasional chord change that comes out of the blue, takes you in an unexpected direction, and then somehow brings you "back home" by the end of the verse or chorus! Howard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:38:03 +0100 From: "mike pritchard" Subject: Re: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! >>Just so we don't assume that each and every one of Joni's political observations is traditionally liberal, look at this from Three Great Stimulants: I saw a little lawyer on the tube He said "It's so easy now anyone can sue" "Let me show you how your petty aggravations can profit you!" This can be interpreted as supporting the Republican position on "tort reform," the movement to limit people's ability to sue.<< And it could be interpreted as commenting (negatively) on whichever government(s) policy allowed such rampant litigious behaviour become established. And it could be interpreted as commenting (positively) on the ease with which the 'little people' (the 'economically challenged') can if not 'get' justice, then can at least participate in it, rather than justice being available only for those able to afford the best lawyers. And so on... mike in bcn Funeral Tango - JBIAAWALIP - - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 12:08:44 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: The Arrangement Bob Muller wrote: "Well, given that Joni wrote this not independently but rather specifically for the film, let's look at the synopsis of the film's plot and see. I would say that at least originally it would be the former. I haven't seen this film so perhaps someone who has can offer up some insights." I did not realize Joni had written this for a film. Did the song appear in the film ? What was the name of the film ? Best Bobsart (learning something new - or rather, old - around here every day, it seems) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 12:19:45 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: on inventing chords Hey Kate...what I meant by self taught were people who were not actually taught how to play piano or guitar by someone, such as a tutor or music teacher, but those who actually just sat down with the instrument and started to play it all by themselves until they figured out how to do it right....It seems that there are at least several, if not many, examples of artists who have done this....Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 12:25:46 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: "The Arrangement" now back to jc Catherine I think maybe he IS dying, because it would make sense as to why she would say, "You could have been more....." As if he is looking back on his life and realizing that he took all the wrong things to be important....Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:56:05 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: on inventing chords yes but my point is that i think very few musicians just figure it out themelves......they learn from playing or watching or listening to others...but i think this falls into self taught as its not formal teacher to student training... for joni, i think she had piano lessons as a child, then learned some guitar chords from a pete seger book...but the tunings she created were her own invention...unless crosby taught her some...i think he was using some tunings when they met...they may have traded ideas or maybe she mostly taught him...can't remember that part Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide It seems that there are at least several, if not many, examples of artists who have done this....Rick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 10:35:37 -0800 From: "Russell Bowden" Subject: For A Living and Political sound bites..JC Aloha, Gang, What I do for a living in my present incarnation: Piano salesman. Yup. If the following has been mentioned, that's what I get for not reading every post.... "You and me, we're like America and Russia, We're always keeping score, we're always balancing the power And that can get to be a cold, cold war. Peace talks, etc. Love from Honolulu, Russ ( aka Passion Fruit) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:41:08 EST From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: What we do for a living (VLJC) << From: Jennymac48@aol.com Subject: What do we all do for a living (VLJC) Hi all. I don't know if this has been done but wouldn't it be fun to see what we all do for a living and what our main hobby activity is and how do we attribute either to Joni's influence (if we do). >> Interesting idea, Jenny... I'll bite. I've been in the auto repair business all my life, mechanic (technician) for about 25 years and then another 10 as a shop manager and lately, a service advisor for a new car dealer. I don't enjoy what I do very much and for years felt I should have been doing something in the arts. For many years, I've had side businesses doing photography, silkscreen printing and making awards and trophies. Hobbies were cars (when I was young) and a custom '50 Merc of mine was featured in 9 car magazines. Photography as a hobby kept me occupied for many years and has given way to writing; I currently produce a quarterly cooperative journal with a dozen other people. I collect all kinds of things incuding post cards and Americana. I love music (especially Joni) and have a sizeable vinyl & cd collection but never took the time to learn an instrument until two years ago when I started taking piano lessons. I can't say I attribute anything in my life to Joni except that I greatly admire artists in ANY field; I've heard it said that a laborer works with the hands, a craftsman works with the head and hands while an artist works with the head, hands and heart. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:48:21 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: C&S in Grammy Hall of Fame **Thanks for the reply and the full listing, Bob.** One would think that JM.com might make mention of the Grammies and other awards she's won in an easily locatable way, but nope. **I agree with you about Down To You, and would nominate the two-song sequence of Car On A Hill and Down To You as the "best two consecutive song arrangements accompanying vocalists" ever in the history of the Grammies.** How about backing that car up a tune, adding Same situation, and calling it "the best 3-song sequence"? Probably gets my vote. Bob NP: Carolina Panthers...winning! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 23:57:57 EST From: Bobsart48@aol.com Subject: Re: C&S in Grammy Hall of Fame Bob Muller took the "best arrangement" theme one step farther with: "How about backing that car up a tune, adding Same situation, and calling it "the best 3-song sequence"? Probably gets my vote." I concur - but I had to ruefully recall that in the old days, when I first bought the record, The Same Situation was on the first side, which separated it from Car On A Hill and Down To You. Now that we have CD's, that problem goes away. As an aside, bringing up The Same Situation reminds me of my much I love the way Joni from time to time segues one song into another: Such as Lesson in Survival / Let the Wind Carry Me, and Boho Dance/Harry's House, in addition to People's Parties/Same Situation. Are there others like that ? I forget, but it seems like there must have been. Bobsart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:57:52 -0700 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: Mitchell v. State Board of Equalization, 2nd Cir., No. B036082 Deb Messling wrote: > Speaking of lawsuits, I think Les should try to drum up the > above referenced court decision (giving Joni half a million > in back taxes) for our articles database. I'm sure it would > be fascinating reading. Contract law always makes > fascinating reading. zzzzzzzzz There are a couple of articles about it. Mainly: "2nd Cir. Holds Joni Mitchell is due $500,000 in back taxes" from the 'Entertainment Litigation Reporter' July 23, 1990. http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=1112 But it would be nice to have the text of the actual court decision. Lawyers on the list! Get digging. :-) Les ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 22:22:34 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: What do we all do for a living (VLJC) I am an independent songwriter & performer which means I also do promotion, booking, public relations, press releases, concert production etc... I also write cd & concert reviews for the local paper (specialty women singer songwriters...imagine that!)... I've also worked as a grade school teacher, private tutor, educational grantwriter among many other normal & eccentric things... Joni is a major influence in the music realm... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 22:25:15 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: On Inventing chords Howard>I've read a quote from her around the time of "Blue" where she talks about slapping the strings of the acoustic for the first time. I think this was the start of her style change. I think this shift carried on developing, and by the time of Night Ride Home the change was pretty much complete.< I recall she said this came about when she was in greece & only had an old dulicmer to play & started slapping it which was the beginning of her playing that way... Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 02:01:44 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today in History: January 19 1995: Joni appeared at the "Commitment To Life VIII" benefit for AIDS Project Los Angeles, honoring Elton John, Tom Hanks and Ron Meyer at the Universal Amphitheatre. Joni performed "Moon at the Window" and "Sex Kills". Some of the other performers at the show were Julie Andrews, Garth Brooks, Sheryl Crow, Melissa Etheridge, Don Henley, Salt N Pepe, Tammy Wynette, Rupaul, Clint Black, George Michael, and Elton John. More info: http://www.jonimitchell.com/AidsProjectLAMain95.html http://www.jonimitchell.com/AidsProject95SlideA.html - ---- For a comprehensive reference to Joni's appearances, consult Joni Mitchell ~ A Chronology of Appearances: http://www.jonimitchell.com/appearances.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 02:01:44 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: January 19 On January 19 the following articles were published: 1975: "Joni's Private World Gets Lost in the Stadium" - New York Times (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=820 1988: "Storm Pelts West, Heads Toward Plains" - Detroit Free Press (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=917 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #16 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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