From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #14 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Saturday, January 17 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 014 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: On inventing chords ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Person-to-person posts - now "The Arrangement" and back to jc [Cather] Re: Person-to-person posts - now "The Arrangement" and back tojc [SCJoniG] Re: "The Arrangement" and back tojc ["Lori Fye" ] Joni's song, "The Arrangement" [simon@icu.com] re: Play the Joni's politcal lyrics game ["mia ortlieb" ] Speaking of "The 'L' Word" ... ["Lori Fye" ] Oops - sorry ["Lori Fye" ] Re: Joni's song, "The Arrangement" [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] ttt ["mackoliver" ] Fwd: A Claud9 original poster ["Lori Fye" ] Re: ttt ["Lori Fye" ] Re: ttt ["mackoliver" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #28 [russell brooker ] Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album [Randy Remote <] Re: ttt [Neil Orts ] Re: STAS or JM [Neil Orts ] Today's Library Links: January 17 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:41:10 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: On inventing chords Rick wrote: > You know I have yet another question to ask of everyone on the > list...Don't you find it interesting that there so many successful > artists who were self-taught on the guitar? Joni, Loretta Lynn, > Dolly Parton, Wynonna Judd....there are lots....While they all may > not be of the same talent scale, or whatever, it is still interesting > to me to realize all of the self taught players out there and GREAT > songwriters who never really had any formal training...Anyone else > ever notice this? I've been thinking about this. I haven't really noticed what you mentioned, Rick, but that may be due to not knowing about the musical training (or lack thereof) of my favorite artists. But it makes sense to me that the greatest composers of lyrics and music, as well as the greatest actors and artists in any media, are those who are absolutely COMPELLED to create. So they pick up an instrument or a paint brush or a pen or broken pieces of pottery, and they just CREATE. They can't help but do so. And they're probably much better at it than those who study a particular thing because they want to be great at it but perhaps don't have that special *something* that comes naturally to the truly talented. I don't remember where I read it (although I thought it was an interview in Rolling Stone around 1979), but I recall that James Taylor once said (and I paraphrase here) that Joni has the most intense need to create of anyone he'd ever known. I believe that she is one of the most creative people of our lifetimes. My 2 cents. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:13:00 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: Person-to-person posts - now "The Arrangement" and back to jc --- dsk wrote:> > P.S. And, though I'm talking about list stuff, I'm > also wondering why I > think Joni's song "The Arrangement" was such a > political influence on > me. That's taking me a while to figure out. Just my 2 cents here and maybe not really what you had in mind, but just my point of view... "The Arrangement" could be small-p political. "You could have been more than a name on the door... more than a consumer lying in some room trying to die... more than a credit card, swimming pool in the back yard." We all make arrangements of sorts with life, and we end up in some kind of pigeonhole. Years later, we realize how far we are from the dreams we had in our youth. (There are probably a lucky few who ended up where they wanted to be, of course.) I see the character in this song (the "you") as a businessman who sells his soul to get ahead, in a manner of speaking. He could easily be a politician, of course. You start out life with all these ideals and you end up compromising these to get the right job, the right car, the right house, the perfect spouse. This song had a pretty strong impact on me too. When I was in my teens I wrote a poem that was very influenced by this song - all about how people end up with these crummy (or not necessarily crummy in this case, 'cause I think this guy has "made it" businesswise - he's got the pool, the credit cards & all that) jobs and they just work through them until they reach retirement and can go off to Florida or some place to do what they really wanted to do all along, except now they're kind of old and maybe it's too late. Somewhere in this house is the book this poem got published in. Thankfully for the world at large, it probably didn't sell many copies and is long out of print, but I do know that Joni's lyrics influenced me A LOT when I was in my late teens and early twenties, so much so that quotes from her songs spring more easily into my head than Bible quotations, for example. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:36:32 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Person-to-person posts - now "The Arrangement" and back tojc I know it's been mentioned before, but didn't Joni write this for inclusion in the 1969 Elia Kazan film by the same name? Reading a synopsis of the film it would seem that it would HAVE to be so, just as her "Midnight Cowboy" was written for that film but never used. And I wonder why "Arrangement" wasn't used? It's a brilliant song - blew me out of the water when I first heard it (which was in the late 80's/early 90's when I could definitely relate to it!) Joni must be pretty proud of it as she included it in her "Misses" collection. Bob NP: Fleetwood Mac, "Gold Dust Woman" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 13:19:43 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: "The Arrangement" and back tojc Debra wrote: > P.S. And, though I'm talking about list stuff, I'm also wondering why > I think Joni's song "The Arrangement" was such a political influence > on me. That's taking me a while to figure out. That song (one of my favorites on LOTC) has always seemed to me to be -- at least in some ways -- Joni's indictment upon selling one's soul to Capitalism and the almighty dollar. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:19:18 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! Just so we don't assume that each and every one of Joni's political observations is traditionally liberal, look at this from Three Great Stimulants: I saw a little lawyer on the tube He said "It's so easy now anyone can sue" "Let me show you how your petty aggravations can profit you!" This can be interpreted as supporting the Republican position on "tort reform," the movement to limit people's ability to sue. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:30:10 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Mitchell v. State Board of Equalization, 2nd Cir., No. B036082 Speaking of lawsuits, I think Les should try to drum up the above referenced court decision (giving Joni half a million in back taxes) for our articles database. I'm sure it would be fascinating reading. Contract law always makes fascinating reading. zzzzzzzzz - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 02:13:05 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: Fw: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! = longish hi >>>>>bob wrote >>>>>Subject: Re: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! this sounds interesting !!!! one of the major factors which keep me hooked on joni's music is the depth of personal emotion and experience and feelings, and the precise manner in which she sums them up - she seems to be able to say so much so concisely, so that the more you think about it and work on it, the better you get what she is saying. in her earlier works, there is political content, but it seems to me that it is not as prevalent as her later work. and what there is seems to be more personal, becoming less personal as time passes. ok - perhaps she is just becoming more politically aware as she gets older, but it seems to me that she actually lost a lot in the growing up. examples: from "cactus tree" - "theres a man who sends her medals, he is bleeding from the war" no political rhetoric - just reduced to one person, and how he has suffered. one line - makes you think & fill in the gaps. from: "fiddle and the drum" ok - i would have to quote the entire lyric here :-) but the entire song is about the feeling of betrayal, mistrust and misunderstanding by johnny/america. again - no rhetoric or politicizing - just the simple, honest and unpretentious statement of how she feels. great stuff - joni at her best. from "california" "Reading the news and it sure looks bad, They won't give peace a chance, That was just a dream some of us had" disillusionment setting in. then on it goes to "More about the war, And the bloody changes, Oh will you take me as I am? " still that oh so honest personal response. from "goodbye pork pie hat" "When the bandstands had a thousand ways, Of refusing a black man admission, Black musician, In those days they put him in an Underdog position" still very personal, but not personal to her - more her identifying with someone elses experiences and feelings. and of course she comes up with the wonderful line, which, while very political, and also becoming a bit harsher than previously, is also a wonderful observation of why people do strange things politically "The sidewalk is a history book, And a circus, Dangerous clowns, Balancing dreadful and wonderful perceptions, They have been handed, Day by day, Generations on down" "dreadful and wonderful perceptions" - how great is that !!!!!! from "ethiopia" ok - again i would have to quote the entire lyric - but where is the personalness (not sure if thats a real word??) and indivdual response seen in the earlier songs. imho this lyrics is absolutely no where near the standard of the tracks mentioned above. it doesnt draw me in, it doesnt involve, theres just nothing personal about it. then from "sex kills" "Is justice just ice?, Governed by greed and lust?, Just the strong doing what they can, And the weak suffering what they must?, And the gas leaks, And the oil spills" i was actually quite shocked when i first heard this track. ackk, phooey!!!! :-) im not quite so put off by it now, but just contrast it with the incredible and moving "magdalene laundries" on the same album - who can fail to be pulled in, involved, moved, shocked, and ultimately saddened by such an intense and personal song (especially as sung by les ross!!!). joni at her best again!!! from "no apologies" "Tireskids and teethmarks, What happened to this place?, Lawyers and loan sharks, Are laying America to waste" musically - i love this song. love the flow of it, the feel of the music. but again - i dont find the lyrics to be as personal and moving - nope - doesnt work on that level. ive never actually sat down and thought about this before - its really just an impression which i am for the first time trying to put into some coherent (hopefully) words - so perhaps im wrong. any and all thoughts on the topic would be gratefully welcomed :-) ron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:11:04 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: on inventing chords Rick wrote: "Don't you find it interesting that there so many successful artists who were self-taught on the guitar? Joni, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, Wynonna Judd" I didn't know about those others (besides Joni). Thanks for sharing that bit of info! I wonder how many other successful artists were self-taught? Mia _________________________________________________________________ Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:13:07 -0500 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Joni's song, "The Arrangement" earlier today, Bob wrote wondering about the song "The Arrangement" > I know it's been mentioned before, but didn't Joni write this > for inclusion in the 1969 Elia Kazan film by the same name? > > Reading a synopsis of the film it would seem that it would > HAVE to be so, just as her "Midnight Cowboy" was written > for that film but never used. well i don't know about "it would HAVE to be so" BUT ... Yes! Joni did write "The Arrangement" for Elia Kazan's film of the same name. she also wrote "The Midnight Cowboy Song" for the film "Midnight Cowboy". what's not widely know is that Joni actually wrote "Songs To Aging Children" *for* the film "Alice's Restaurant". they didn't just use a pre-existing song. songs written for films are *not* used for a variety of reasons. for example ... "Man From Mars" written for the film "Grace Of My Heart", was originally going to be used at the end of the film, during the credits. at some point in the production Allison Anders, the director, decided to move the song up into the body of the film. with that decision, it made sense to have the song sung 'in the voice of the character', and that was Kristen Vigard. so ... Larry Klein, music producer, went back into the studio and had Kristen record a new vocal on one of the 'unused tracks' accompanied by Joni's original instrumental backing track. andmoreagain, - ------------------- simon PS: our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. MLK ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:37:08 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: Play the Joni's politcal lyrics game Is there a limit? I'm on digest, so these may have been mentioned already, but here are my favorites: Two from TAX FREE: "You get witch-hunts and wars When church and state hold hands" and "How can he speak for the Prince of Peace When he's hawk right militant" These comments clearly reflect the hypocrisy that exists in theerealm of politics and religion. From THE SIRE OF SORROW: "And you let the wicked prosper You let their children frisk like deer" Has God failed, or has politics failed? Brings on questions surrounding freedom of the will. From NO APOLOGIES: "As druglords buy up the banks And warlords radiate the oceans" OMG!! How depressing is this? Mia _________________________________________________________________ Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software  optimizes dial-up to the max! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:50:07 EST From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: STAS or JM << rom: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album Oh no, the STAS controversy again! ... ...I understand that in the late 90s, the CD was re-released with STAS as its official title, but I haven't seen it. Supposedly the sound's better, too. Can anyone verify that? Deb Messling -^..^- >> I don't know, Deb... I've got a pretty recent CD version and it says "Joni Mitchell" on the front & side as its title. I always thought that the members of the JMDL were using STAS as the title just because it was more "fitting" than JM. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:40:43 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: STAS or JM Kenny B wrote: > I always thought that the members of the JMDL were using STAS as the > title just because it was more "fitting" than JM. I like to refer to it as STAS because Joni named it that, even if the goofs in the graphics department didn't realize it. I can so clearly remember sitting on the floor of my bedroom in Phoenix, studying the cover of the record that I had recently bought at a used store near the university, and realizing that those seagulls spelled something. (And wondering, "Why was the 'L' cut off?") I was 21 and had been listening to Joni for just two years. I wish I could relive the majic of discovering each of Joni's recordings, in random order, again. What sheer joy! Lori :~) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:49:23 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Speaking of "The 'L' Word" ... For those who haven't heard and may be interested (and for anyone who appreciates a reminder), a new series called "The 'L' Word" about a group of lesbian friends in LA will premiere on Showtime this Sunday, Jan 18, at 10pm ET/PT. Jennifer Beals of "Flashdance" fame is a cast regular. It looks to be a thoughtfully written and produced show. http://www.sho.com/site/lword/home.do Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:51:16 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Oops - sorry My most sincere apology to the only-Joni folks for omitting the N*JC tag on that last post. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:52:02 EST From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's song, "The Arrangement" **Joni did write "The Arrangement" for Elia Kazan's film of the same name. she also wrote "The Midnight Cowboy Song" for the film "Midnight Cowboy".** Thanks for verifying my suspicions, Simon. What is your statement based on? Not that I'm doubting you, because I don't. I'm just curious as to the confirming source. Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:51:30 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: ttt Another jewel in the collection of our joan have I just come upon. This effort is too grand. Feel as if I have found something that was a secret as haven't heard much about it. Enchanted. mack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:57:33 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Fwd: A Claud9 original poster I hope no one minds if I forward this without the n*jc tag. Although it is Fest-related, it does include a wonderful image of Joni and it's just a cool and beautiful poster besides. (If someone does mind, well, sue me!) - Lori : ) - -------------------------------- Date: 1/16/2004 23:21:25 -0500 From: "Lama, Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: A Claud9 original poster, n*jc technically I finally got around to framing the 2003 JoniFest poster, designed by Claud9. The poster is presented in miniature at: http://www.jmdl.com/jonifest/store.cfm There may still be a few available because it is still listed in the JMDL store. All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:02:09 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: ttt > Another jewel in the collection of our joan have I just come upon. > This effort is too grand. Feel as if I have found something that was > a secret as haven't heard much about it. Enchanted. Really, Mack? Which song(s) do you like best? Why? TTT is one that I play only occasionally, although (like CMIAR) when I do play it I realize that I enjoy it very much. I do wish Joni had (or could have) used the VG-8 less, though. Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:26:54 -0600 From: "mackoliver" Subject: Re: ttt Lori asked? > Really, Mack? Which song(s) do you like best? Why? I don't even know what the VG-8 is Lori. ha ha. The two tunes that stand out for me at this point are 'man from mars' and 'stay in touch.' The lyrics are so poignant and the resonance in Joni's voice is so lovely. Such emotion and I just realized she sounds much, on this album, as she did on TI. I have allowed many friends, dear ones, to fall away and have lost touch with them over the years. 'stay in touch' brings those emotions to the fore, of loss and wishing they were with me now. It initially and still does remind me of our, my, dear Bree. The attraction for me, generally and the dominating factor, in and with music is the emotional response it generates within me. This album does that to a great degree. Ever enchanted will I be I do believe. mack > > TTT is one that I play only occasionally, although (like CMIAR) when I > do play it I realize that I enjoy it very much. I do wish Joni had (or > could have) used the VG-8 less, though. > > Lori ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:53:15 -0800 (PST) From: russell brooker Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #28 Hello Loves, If we're going to talk about Joni... Wellt then let's talk about Joni... Not your daily lives, I've got so much on the ball about that... But let's talk about Joni. Please. I beseech you. As a planet, now. "Both Planets, Now". OK! We Did It! Finally, My troth to you... Let's talk about "Our Girl..." "Yes we always do..." Not even "Sometimes" Your Friend In Joan Anderson... Russell __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:52:10 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album Deb Messling wrote: > I understand that in the late 90s, the CD was re-released with STAS as its > official title, but I haven't seen it. Supposedly the sound's better, > too. Can anyone verify that? Yes, the HDCD remastered version sounds better than any version before it. The original masters were muddy and noise-laden. David Crosby has admitted to being responsible for this, as producer of that album. The remaster fixed these problems and resulted in a very clean and pristine sound, IMO. The other album that was noticeably improved in the HDCD version is C&S. RR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:29:28 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Orts Subject: Re: ttt - --- Lori Fye wrote: > > TTT is one that I play only occasionally, although > (like CMIAR) when I > do play it I realize that I enjoy it very much. I > do wish Joni had (or > could have) used the VG-8 less, though. I'm with Lori on this one. I was disappointed with TTT when it first came out. There are a a couple of tracks on it that come to mind that I really really liked. (The opening track, the title I forget just now, which somehow reminds me of Hissing of Summer Lawns--the album, not necessarily the song--and "Crazy Cries of Love") but as a whole I didn't like the VG-8 sound, either. And I just felt to take her arguments with her mother so public on "Happiness is the Best Facelift" to be . . . somewhere in the spectrum of cruel, unfair, in poor taste. (I also feel like it's one of the clunkier melodies in her catalog--and I've listened to Mingus! :) But I haven't put in on in months and months. I didn't like Hejira for a long time and then didn't stop listening to it for about a year. So who knows . . . - -Neil he of changeable mind ===== Neil Ellis Orts 713-838-1787 Houston, TX keep up with my creative endeavors--join my newsletter list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/neonews ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:34:10 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Orts Subject: Re: STAS or JM - --- PassScribe@aol.com wrote: > I don't know, Deb... I've got a pretty recent CD > version and it says > "Joni Mitchell" on the front & side as its title. I > always thought that the > members of the JMDL were using STAS as the title > just because it was more "fitting" > than JM. My CD, purchased about 3 years ago (?), has STAS on the "spine." The cover even gets the whole title on the cover art. :) - -Neil ===== Neil Ellis Orts 713-838-1787 Houston, TX keep up with my creative endeavors--join my newsletter list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/neonews ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 02:33:00 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: January 17 On January 17 the following article was published: 1976: "Joni Mitchell World Tour To Follow U.S. College Gigs" - Cashbox (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=644 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #14 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)