From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #13 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Friday, January 16 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 013 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: On Inventing chords ["Marian Russell" ] Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album ["Marian Russel] Re: On Inventing chords ["Marian Russell" ] Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album [Deb Messling <] Court & Spark added to Grammy Album Hall of Fame [SCJoniGuy@aol.com] Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album [AzeemAK@aol.co] Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! ["Lori Fye" ] Re: This list is a good thing ["Martin Giles" ] Today In History: the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was born [simon@ic] RE: Subject: Joni's guitar playing through the years! ["Kate Bennett" ] Today's Library Links: January 16 [ljirvin@jmdl.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 03:01:38 -0500 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: Re: On Inventing chords On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:02:41 -0800, Randy Remote wrote: >If you are talking about a song that modulates into a different key for >the rest of the song (a common composer 'trick') that may be true. That's what I was talking about with reference to the guitar songs. >(Actually "Fiddle and the Drum" does this too) Yes, FATD does modulate (as do some of the piano songs), but she sings this one a capella - without the guitar. I was speaking of her guitar songs only. >But I would say off the top of my head that a majority of her songs >modulate out of the parent key at some point, and that is one of the >things that makes them interesting. Even her earliest songs like >"Urge For Going" did this. Hopefully I'm using the term 'modulate' >properly. No, none of her guitar songs (that I can think of) modulate out of the parent key - not even UFG. Sometimes the chord progressions are unusual. Sometimes the parent key is not always necessarily the tonic. But her chord progressions are fairly standard for the most part, it's just the chords themselves that are unusual, because of the suspensions, 7ths, 9ths, 13ths, etc. Apart from this, though, and not forgetting the melodic genius of most of her songs, sometimes her vocal harmonies are strange, too (e.g., double fourths, fifths) - these also lend beauty to her compositions and make them sound more interesting (at least to me) than much of the popular music of the last 30 years. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 03:26:46 -0500 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 19:49:16 -0800, David Marine wrote: > I know that Joni has said that her post polio > syndrome made it difficult for her to shape her > left hand into some of the standard configurations, > and this was one factor that influenced her as she > created her open tunings ( > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?>id=115 > ..... Isn't it possible or probable that the PPS has > influenced her picking and strumming styles also? Could be true, David. I personally find it more comfortable to play rhythmically. But having played in a R&R band for a short time myself, I do think it makes sense that she moved to a more rhythmic style when she started playing with other musicians. Fingerpicking just doesn't work when you've got drums going on. After I posted yesterday, I thought about some of the beautiful guitar songs that are post FTR - e.g., Just Like This Train, Harry's House, Hejeira, Be Cool, The Wolf That Lives In Lindsey, Passion Play (AYK,TMBM). I didn't mean to diss the guitar playing on all the post FTR songs! It does take ingenuity and talent to pull them off, not to mention to compose them in the first place! I'd like to qualify somewhat what I said yesterday by saying that IMO the fingerpicking on Joni's early guitar compositions is stunningly beautiful and complex and more difficult to learn than a lot of the later, post FTR, stuff - and that I admire the early guitar work more because it requires more technique and attention to duplicate it. I find the rhythmic guitar songs easier to learn and to play - they are not as demanding of my attention. >Also, at the end of the article cited above, Joni talks about her >first album: ... >> ... Not only has this led many people to call >> the album Song To A Seagull, but several reputable >> rock 'n' roll history books (one example being The >> Rolling Stone Rock & Roll Encyclopedia, edited by >> Jon Pareles and Patricia Romanowski [Rolling Stone Press >> / Summit Books, 1983]) list two different albums, >> one called Joni Mitchell, the other Song To A Seagull. >> Mitchell, when informed of this, expressed surprise. >> "People can't see them," she said of the birds, "and the >> 'L' [of Seagull] is cut off, 'cause even the graphic >> department, they didn't see it either. It's called Joni >> Mitchell." > Well, this is news to me. I always thought it had > been decided that the title was STAS. Now I am, again, > confused. Oh, no!!! Me, too!!! Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 03:34:20 -0500 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: Re: On Inventing chords I said: > Sometimes the parent key is not always necessarily the tonic. what I meant to say was that sometimes the tuning is not the parent key (or tonic). Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:42:35 -0500 From: Deb Messling Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album Oh no, the STAS controversy again! Here's the story: Joni *intended* to call the album "Song to a Seagull," and even used that title to describe the upcoming album to a concert audience (tape of which is widely available). However, as she noted later, the record company didn't notice the graphics and called the album "Joni Mitchell." At least in the library world, the official title of a musical work is what appears on the disc itself, LP or CD - what's printed on the packaging is secondary information. So if your *disc* says JONI MITCHELL, that's its official title. I understand that in the late 90s, the CD was re-released with STAS as its official title, but I haven't seen it. Supposedly the sound's better, too. Can anyone verify that? Deb Messling -^..^- messling@enter.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:48:46 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Court & Spark added to Grammy Album Hall of Fame Extry extry, read all about it: http://www.billboard.com/bb/daily/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=2067633 Bob NP: Earth, Wind & Fire, "Gratitude" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:12:09 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album In a message dated 15/01/2004 13:47:34 GMT Standard Time, messling@enter.net writes: << At least in the library world, the official title of a musical work is what appears on the disc itself, LP or CD - what's printed on the packaging is secondary information. So if your *disc* says JONI MITCHELL, that's its official title. >> Well, FWIW, I've always regarded this album as being untitled (or self-titled, which I think comes to the same thing0; my vinyl copy is the 1975 Reprise reissue, on which it is clear that the album is not called Song To A Seagull. And of course it was (and still is) common for debut albums to be self-titled. Heard Help Me on the radio just now, which is always a lovely tonic. Azeem in London NP: Amy Winehouse - You Sent Me Flying. The more I listen to this album (Frank), the more convinced I am that this young woman is a major, major talent. Fantastic lyrics, superb arrangements, proper tunes and everything. She sings with an insolent insouciance and a huge amount of chutzpah and plays a nifty guitar too. Check it out dear peeps - Chris, Martin, have you heard her yet?? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 08:43:13 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! Rules (subject to change by anyone): 1) Contribute a political lyric written by Joni. 2) Discuss if you choose (optional) It does not have to be about war but here's the one that's been stuck in my head lately: All the news of home you read More about the war And the bloody changes from "California" Is Joni complaining or merely observing? Next? Lori, hoping to engage everyone ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:18:40 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: Re: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! Okay, I'll play! While madmen sit up building bombs They're making laws- and bars They're going to slam free choice behind us... Discussion? Hmmm. Written at least 18 years ago and still applies today. Joni saw alot and reported it. Now it's the same old shit with different players. Just look at what Bush and Bin Ladin and Al Queda (sp?) have done in the last few years. Scary. And I mean, scary... Steve At 08:43 AM 1/15/2004 -0800, you wrote: >Rules (subject to change by anyone): > >1) Contribute a political lyric written by Joni. > >2) Discuss if you choose (optional) > > >It does not have to be about war but here's the one that's been stuck >in my head lately: > >All the news of home you read >More about the war >And the bloody changes > >from "California" > >Is Joni complaining or merely observing? > > >Next? > >Lori, >hoping to engage everyone ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:23:17 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! 1) Contribute a political lyric written by Joni. "The old pick the wars We die in 'em To the beat of the beat of black wings" 2) Discuss if you choose (optional) Obviously very relevant today. I was reading in the paper this morning about the increasing suicide rates among soldiers, and also the troubles that they are having (and will continue to have) re-assimilating themselves into civilian life, dealing with anger like Killer Kyle. It all just seems so wasteful. I think she's doing both...I would think that any significant observation is going to be followed by a reaction. You observe someone driving haphazardly, and you get upset, or even scared. You observe high prices or a long line, or bad news in the paper, and you complain, and etc. And I'll also add this caveat as a Joni-only...it's VERY easy for this kind of thread to turn NJC in a snap, so to those of you who respond to it, if your message doesn't refer back to Joni's lyric, an NJC in the subject line is much appreciated. On a similar note, I am currently working in another office in town, helping them put together a proposal for Iraq work. Besides the 16,000 AK47's we have to get pricing for, one of the things I'm charged with getting quotes on is ambulances to be manufactured and supplied over the next 2 years. Initially the requisition called for 220 to be purchased, it has since been upped to 400. That just seemed sad to me. Bob NP: Electric Light Orchestra, "Evil Woman" PS: The reason I picked "Beat Of Black Wings" is that Covers Volume #49 starts off with a great new version of the song! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:48:49 -0700 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! > 1) Contribute a political lyric written by Joni. "...while Muslims stick up Washington..." fron Otis and Marlena This lyric has been traced back to a specific event on March 9, 1977 in Washington. Twelve Hanafi Muslims heavily armed with shotguns and machetes stormed into the offices of B'nai B'rith and the Islamic Center. For 39 hours, the terrorists held 123 hostages on the eighth floor of the building. Read all about it here: http://www.jmdl.com/glossary/muslims.cfm By the way, have you ever contributed a Glossary entry to the JMDL? You should! http://www.jmdl.com/glossary/ Les ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:55:39 -0800 (PST) From: Neil Orts Subject: Re: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! okay, I'll play. i think Joni's lyrics tend to be more social commentary than political, but then those lines blur, don't they? As in these lines . . . 1) Contribute a political lyric written by Joni. Is justice just ice? Governed by greed and lust? Just the strong doing what they can And the weak suffering what they must? 2) Discuss if you choose (optional) I think Joni has long shown an understanding of how power works in this world, the corrupting influence of it, power's desperation (quiet and not quiet) to hold onto power by letting the poor/weak suffer--until the poor suffer too much and rise up in revolution. I think she sees the futility in the cycle of vengeance while also seeing everyone's part in the terrible web. Probably her most maddening quality, in this arena, is her ability to see many sides to an issue. Going back to Dog Eat Dog, "Fiction" is an excellent example of how no one escapes her clear eye on that. My commentary is more on her catalog on the whole, I guess. I just quoted a lyric to follow the rules of the game. ;) - -Neil ===== Neil Ellis Orts 713-838-1787 Houston, TX keep up with my creative endeavors--join my newsletter list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/neonews ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:28 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Tedder) Subject: Subject: Joni's guitar playing through the years! Kate Bennett wrote "I have not tried to count out joni's rhythm but at times it sure can be challenging to play exactly like she does- so I don't!...perhaps she skips bars & some such stuff, dylan said something like joni has her own time but she is allowed to tell you what time it is..." In a book I read called 'Blackfoot Physics' the author,F David Peat recounts a story by Leroy Little Bear who says he was supposed to be listening to an Elder but kept looking at his watch. The Elder said; 'Do you have somewhere else to go?' 'No' said Leroy 'Then why do you keep looking at your watch?' 'Well, to see what time it is.' 'No you don't. You look to see what time it isn't.' I love this story because I am so often looking at my watch. If I have an appointment at 3.00 I'm always looking to check it isn't 3. I know Joni has a lot of time for Indian chiefs with their old beliefs. Maybe Joni was telling Dylan what time it isn't or just merely underlining that the times they are a changing. Yours (metaphysically spinning into the vortex) Anita ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:12:34 -0500 (EST) From: notaro@stpt.usf.edu Subject: RE: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! Quoting Les Irvin : > > 1) Contribute a political lyric written by Joni. And so, once again. My dear Johnny, my dear friend. And so once again You are fighting us all. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:25:27 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: Re: Court & Spark added to Grammy Album Hall of Fame Bob wrote: > Extry extry, read all about it: > > http://www.billboard.com/bb/daily/article_display.jsp? vnu_content_id=2067633 That's pretty cool except ... "The slate of albums includes folk hero Joni Mitchell's 1974 set "Court and Spark" Folk hero? How odd, considering C & S doesn't contain a single folk song that I can recall. Pretty jazzy, that album! WHY do people, specifically music journalists WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER, persist in referring to Joni as a folkie? Lori, disgruntled ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:47:53 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: Re: Court & Spark added to Grammy Album Hall of Fame It's just the way the music biz is, I think...hell, I've even seen BSN & T'log categorized as "folk rock". It's much easier for these people if they can niche and segment everything. Can you imagine going into a record store and having to look for Joni cd's in the "folk", "jazz", "easy listening" etc. sections? So Joni is usually in the "Rock" section even though ironically that's probably what she is the LEAST! Bob NP: Eminem, "Soldier" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:47:29 -0000 From: "amelio747" Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album Hi Deb, I have the HDCD version of "Song To A Seagull" which is what it is titled at the side. I've noticed that the quality is worse than any of her other remastered albums but it doesn't spoil listening to it at all . I can still hear every word! I couldn't imagine the album not sounding a bit muddy coz that's how it's always sounded. NP: Save The Country - Laura Nyro * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Deb Messling" To: Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 1:42 PM Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing and the name of her first album > Oh no, the STAS controversy again! Here's the story: Joni *intended* to > call the album "Song to a Seagull," and even used that title to describe > the upcoming album to a concert audience (tape of which is widely > available). However, as she noted later, the record company didn't notice > the graphics and called the album "Joni Mitchell." > > At least in the library world, the official title of a musical work is > what appears on the disc itself, LP or CD - what's printed on the packaging > is secondary information. So if your *disc* says JONI MITCHELL, that's its > official title. > > I understand that in the late 90s, the CD was re-released with STAS as its > official title, but I haven't seen it. Supposedly the sound's better, > too. Can anyone verify that? > > > Deb Messling -^..^- > messling@enter.net > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:37:18 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: It happened again! I'm trying to function in the office on a slow day and I am listening to Joni on my Real One Player. Don't Interrupt the Sorrow is on and all of a sudden, my heart leaped for joy!!! What a fantastic voice! it is so smooth and mellow! What a writer!!!! What a songstress!!!! .....Okay...I think I am over it now! Continue on with your discussions! :) Sherelle _________________________________________________________________ Find high-speed net deals  comparison-shop your local providers here. https://broadband.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:24:22 -0000 From: "Martin Giles" Subject: Re: This list is a good thing Whoops. Sorry Joni only folks. That should have been NJC. ...:*( Martin. In London. (And probably the doghouse!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:05:12 -0500 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Today In History: the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was born i think it's Important! to note ... seventy-five years ago today, on January 15, 1929 ... the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was born. and America is better because of it. too bad America no longer seems to care. the dream remains UnFulfilled! apparently deferred ... WHAT HAPPENS TO A DREAM DEFERRED? Does it dry up like a raisin in the sun? Or fester like a sore -- And then run? Does it stink like a rotten meat? Or crust and sugar over -- like a syrupy sweet? Maybe it just sags like a heavy load. OR DOES IT EXPLODE? Langston Hughes (p) 1959 ----------- Upcoming on "The American Experience" (PBS) CITIZEN KING Monday, January 19, 2004 (1.5 hrs.) The story begins on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial in August 1963, when a 34-year-old preacher galvanized millions with his dream for an America free of racism. It comes to a bloody end almost five years later on a motel balcony in Memphis, Tennessee. In the years since those events unfolded, the man at their center, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., has become a mythic figure, a minister whose oratory is etched into the minds of millions of Americans, a civil rights activist whose words and image are more hotly contested, negotiated and sold than almost anyone else's in American history. Produced by award-winning director Orlando Bagwell, Citizen King pushes past the myths that have obscured King's story to reclaim the history of a people's leader. Using the personal recollections, diaries, letters, and eyewitness accounts of friends, journalists, law enforcement officers, historians, and others, this film brings fresh insights to King's difficult journey, his charismatic - -- if at times flawed -- leadership, and his truly remarkable impact. Produced by Orlando Bagwell and Noland Walker http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/mlk/ http://www.wgbh.org/schedules/program-info?program_id=24238&episode_id=1205245 "The American Experience" (PBS) CITIZEN KING In August 1963, a 34-year-old minister gave a speech that enthralled a crowd of more than 200,000 gathered at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C., and millions more who watched on television. With passion and precision, he proclaimed his vision of a nation free of racism, declaring, "Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children." What came to be known as the "I Have A Fream" speech was a high point in the public career of Martin Luther King Jr. But it was also a turning point in his personal life, as he embarked on a controversial, often lonely, struggle to redefine and redirect the movement he had helped lead. The quest would not end until his assassination in Memphis, Tenn., five years later. For the 75th anniversary of Martin Luther King Jr.'s birth (Jan. 15, 1929), AMERICAN EXPERIENCE presents "CITIZEN KING". This documentary - by AFRICANS IN AMERICA filmmakers Orlando Bagwell and Noland Walker - explores the last five years of King's life by drawing on the personal recollections and eyewitness accounts of friends, associates, journalists, law enforcement officers, and historians. Framed by the Lincoln Memorial speech and his assassination, CITIZEN KING traces King's efforts to recast himself by embracing causes beyond the civil rights movement - to "transform and restructure the whole of American society," as he put it. His decision would alienate many of his closest friends and further inflame his enemies. King took repeated leaps of faith as he cast aside political caution in favor of following a path that would make more difficult - and dangerous - his already challenging life. andmoreagain, - ------------------- simon PS: dubya ain't got no business being in Atlanta, today. what HYPOCRISY! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:17:02 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Subject: Joni's guitar playing through the years! >Maybe Joni was telling Dylan what time it isn't or just merely underlining that the times they are a changing. Yours (metaphysically spinning into the vortex)Anita< I love this! Kate spinning happily along into the metaphysical vortex with you.. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:21:12 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: On inventing chords You know Les, your email brings up an interesting thing I read about Joni, specifically the part where you say what makes Joni's songs so complex are the Tunings.....I read somewhere that she was thinking about not ever performing live again at some point because she had to tune her guitar so many times....until she got some sort of device that helps her tune her guitar automatically....I can't remember what it was called, but I know it helps her tune the guitar. LOL I wish I could be more specific but I am not very well versed in music education, as it were. Do you know which device I am referring to? Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:32:41 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: On Inventing chords I have to say I also think that Paprika Plains was a BEAUTIFUL song, even though someone I knew once who was a Joni fan told me they did not particularly care for that song....Too bad really, I think it's a GREAT one. Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:38:19 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: Songs I would like Britney to cover In a message dated 1/14/2004 8:44:11 AM Central Standard Time, jamiezubairi@yahoo.co.uk writes: > > 1) Ray's Dad's Cadillac > 2)Talk To Me (I just want to hear her say ' 'Til I > pissed a tequila anaconda the full length of the > parking lot' > 3) Sire Of Sorrow > > > > > ok, so I'm chuckling to myself here... > > OMG how I would LOVE to hear Britney sing the line about pissing the tequlia anaconda! I am not a big Britney fan, but I would DEFINITELY buy that album just to hear her do it! LOL however knowing her prima donna self she probably doesn't even know who Joni Mitchell is. Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:50:13 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: On Inventing chords Well since everyone is taking a stab at what albums and period of Joni's music they like most....I will add a little something to the discussion.... Even though it isn't my favorite album, (BLUE is my favorite), I think that For The Roses is unfortunately one of the most underrated of Joni's albums, and in my humble opinion, one of her best. Seems to me that whenever I hear people talking about her or read things about her, etc...VERY RARELY do I seem to see songs from that wonderful album mentioned....and that's too bad because there are some GREAT ones on it. It just has a certain quality about it....And shoot even a social commentary song to boot....Banquet. And man I think it's just genius the way she works eating a meal into a metaphor about the way the world works! She's just awesome, what can you say? In my humble opinion, again...LOL I think that her metaphors are some of the best things about her songwriting, as well as her imagery. I'm sure many of you will agree. Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:52:17 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #22 In a message dated 1/14/2004 4:06:14 PM Central Standard Time, Kardinel@aol.com writes: > > I have been reading the list with some interest lately. About 3 years ago I > subscribed to the list and I wrote something about Joni. I can't remember > what > but was promptly told I was "a starry eyed fan" or something like that. I > was > very hurt. I don't often write in but wish I could sometimes.I really care > about Joni Mitchell and her work. There is an "in crowd" feeling.. I > understand > how that can come about but maybe the list needs to consider it. > > Well as for myself, I just joined this group and I honestly can't say that anyone has made me feel unwelcome.......In fact they seem to pretty much be helpful...but I haven't been around long. So we shall see I guess....Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:57:09 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: oh God -- now with Joni content! In a message dated 1/14/2004 4:14:30 PM Central Standard Time, lori@lrfye.lunarpages.com writes: > (I think you're overgeneralizing a bit with the "liberal intolerance > for viewpoints other than their own," but that's certainly true of some > liberals, just as its true of some conservatives I just realized I've been saying a lot, but i had to comment on this one too, I am sorry but I have to agree....I think it is a generalization to say liberals are intolerant of viewpoints other than their own....Some of the MOST intolerant people I have EVER known of other people's opinions and viewpoints were conservatives. In fact it seems to me as if they think everyone is "bad," or "evil," or "sinful" if they don't agree with them.....So I think they are the intolerant ones. Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:02:40 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! I'll play lori! I've been singing the same song in my head for some time now, but a different verse... Reading the news and it sure looks bad They won't give peace a chance That was just a dream some of us had Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:08:26 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: On inventing chords You know I have yet another question to ask of everyone on the list...Don't you find it interesting that there so many successful artists who were self-taught on the guitar? Joni, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, Wynonna Judd....there are lots....While they all may not be of the same talent scale, or whatever, it is still interesting to me to realize all of the self taught players out there and GREAT songwriters who never really had any formal training...Anyone else ever notice this? Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:24:41 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: Court & Spark added to Grammy Album Hall of Fame Well I think the reason they list Joni as a folk artist is because that IS where she started....And I think her first two are pretty folkie. Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:27:59 EST From: Musicloverrick@aol.com Subject: Re: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! OH BOY I Just love you two ladies for mentioning my favorite Joni song...California....no one ever seems to talk about that one...But I love that song the most out of all the songs she's ever done! Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:25:18 -0600 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game & Simon (SJC) I'll play. Oh and deep in the night Our appetites find us Release us and bind us Deep in the night While madmen sit up building bombs And making laws and bars They'd like to slam free choice behind us Actually the whole song is great, and nails us all between the eyes. The best christians I ever met are the ones who actually tried to be like Jesus Christ. Who taught people to be born again or as the greek says to metaphor to change to rethink the way things have always been done. I think Dr. King said it best (with thanks to Simon for helping us remember): The Negro and the Constitution (in The Cornellian, May 1944) We cannot be truly Christian people so long as we flaunt the central teachings of Jesus: brotherly love and the Golden Rule. The spirit of Lincoln still lives; that spirit born of the teachings of the Nazarene, who promised mercy to the merciful, who lifted the lowly, strengthened the weak, ate with publicans, and made the captives free. In the light of this divine example, the doctrines of demagogues shiver in their chaff. America experiences a new birth of freedom in her sons and daughters; she incarnates the spirit of her martyred chief. Their loyalty is repledged; their devotion renewed to the work He left unfinished. My heart throbs anew in the hope that inspired by the example of Lincoln, imbued with the spirit of Christ, they will cast down the last barrier to perfect freedom. And I with my brother of blackest hue possessing at last my rightful heritage and holding my head erect, may stand beside the Saxon--a Negro--and yet a man! I tired of war, I'm tired of laws, I'm tired of......... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:26:20 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Play the "Joni's Political Lyrics" game! whenever i am away too long & feeling homesick it is the song i love to sing... OH BOY I Just love you two ladies for mentioning my favorite Joni song...California....no one ever seems to talk about that one...But I love that song the most out of all the songs she's ever done! Rick [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type image/gif which had a name of Shania Twain 1 .gif] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:19:59 EST From: PassScribe@aol.com Subject: More on Joni's tunings, etc. << From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: On inventing chords This is an interesting discussion. I've got 2 cents to give... First, I think Joni became interested in open tunings because they allowed her polio-affected left hand to create chords from less complicated shapes. With these open tunings, rather than having to use three fingers to create, say, a standard C chord she was able to get the same effect by simply laying one finger across all the strings. She then began experimenting with all kinds of different string pitches, tuning her guitar to the "sonic references of the day". As a result, when she used the same left hand shapes she got a completely different sound. I think it's important to know that Joni does not read music and doesn't really know a 3rd or a 5th from a hole in the ground - nor does she really care. So, I think it's misleading to say that she brilliantly invented all these "weird jazz chords". I mean, she did not consciously say "if I add an F# here and a B flat here I'll come up with this great diminished 7th minor suspended 9th inverted chord." Rather, her thought process was probably "ooohhh... when I tune this string down a bit I love the way it sounds!" When she began playing with others, then, it was left up to the musicians who knew enough theory to say "damn... let's see... that chord's got a 6th and a 9th and a..." Take "Amelia" for example. As complex as it is musically from a theory standpoint, Joni really only uses 2 or 3 left hand shapes throughout the whole song. The theoretical complexity arises out of the tuning of the guitar. I'm not diminshing her brilliance in any way, she was a pioneer of the guitar no doubt. I just think that a focus on her ability to create brilliant jazz chords is looking at it from the wrong perspective. But what the hell do I know? :-) Les >> Les: I think you know a LOT... and I REALLY enjoyed your thoughts and explanation above. Kenny B ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:58:18 -0500 (EST) From: Catherine McKay Subject: Re: On Inventing chords --- Musicloverrick@aol.com wrote: > Well since everyone is taking a stab at what albums > and period of Joni's > music they like most....I will add a little > something to the discussion.... > Even though it isn't my favorite album, (BLUE is my > favorite), I think that > For The Roses is unfortunately one of the most > underrated of Joni's albums, and > in my humble opinion, one of her best. Seems to me > that whenever I hear > people talking about her or read things about her, > etc...VERY RARELY do I seem to > see songs from that wonderful album mentioned....and > that's too bad because > there are some GREAT ones on it. "For the roses" just happens to be one of my favourites, if not THE favourite. That is true for a number of reasons. Maybe it's because of the time it came out. According to jmdl.com it was released in October 1972. I thought it might have been a bit later in the year, or maybe it wasn't released here in Canada until a bit later, or maybe i didn't buy it the first day it came out, or maybe we had an early snow, but I remember my first listen to it while watching snow falling outside the window of the place my then-boyfriend was living. I was 19, so that's a good age for "best" things. Joni's piano- and guitar-playing are in top form. And then the songbook came out and it was the first one that actually had alternate tunings in it and all of a sudden, I could play Joni songs on my guitar that really SOUNDED like Joni songs. There are probably more reasons why, but those are just a few reasons why FTR is very special to me. ===== Catherine Toronto - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all live so close to that line, and so far from satisfaction ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 02:04:14 -0500 From: ljirvin@jmdl.com Subject: Today's Library Links: January 16 On January 16 the following articles were published: 1975: "Joni Mitchell - a star with staying power" - Christian Science Monitor (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=954 1986: "Dog Eat Dog" - Rolling Stone (Review - Album) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=304 1997: "Woke Up - It Was a Hall Of Fame Morning" - Associated Press (News Item) http://www.jmdl.com/articles/view.cfm?id=41 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #13 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? 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