From: les@jmdl.com (onlyJMDL Digest) To: onlyjoni-digest@smoe.org Subject: onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #11 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk Archives: http://www.smoe.org/lists/onlyjoni Websites: http://www.jmdl.com http://www.jonimitchell.com Unsubscribe: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe onlyJMDL Digest Wednesday, January 14 2004 Volume 2004 : Number 011 ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: On Inventing chords ["Marian Russell" ] Re: On Inventing chords [Jenny Goodspeed ] Oh Boy -- Please Spank Me Hard ["Bill Bubb" ] Re: On Inventing chords and Joni's voice [steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Tedder)] Re: On Inventing chords ["Marian Russell" ] Songs I would like Britney to cover [=?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= ] Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup ["Sherelle Smith"] RE: Songs I would like Britney to cover ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! ["Donna Binkley" ] Re: On inventing chords [Dflahm@aol.com] RE: On inventing chords ["Wally Kairuz" ] Fw: Songs I would like Britney to cover (for AOL users) [Emiliano ] all them funny chards ["ron" ] Re: On Inventing chords ["Kate Bennett" ] Oh Boy ["Kate Bennett" ] Re: On Inventing chords ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: On Inventing chords ["Les Irvin" ] Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #22 [Kardinel@aol.com] Re: On Inventing chords [Randy Remote ] oh God -- now with Joni content! ["Lori Fye" ] RE: On Inventing chords [Jenny Goodspeed ] Joni's guitar playing through the years! ["amelio747" ] Re: Joni's guitar playing through the years! [Jenny Goodspeed ] RE: On Inventing chords [Jenny Goodspeed ] re: On inventing chords ["mia ortlieb" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 04:37:20 -0500 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: Re: On Inventing chords It scares me to participate in this discussion. I had three years of music theory, but that was more than 20 years ago and there's a lot I don't remember. I see the individual tunings as the elements that provided JOni with the possibility to make interesting chords more easily than would have been possible in standard tuning. It is possible to do all of her chord changes from standard tuning and make them sound like her chords (I personally witnessed an Austrian jazz guitarist who did this), but you have to be very very good to be able to do this - it's not something easily attainable, or even intuitive. I don't think Joni's guitar chord progressions themselves are so strange. The tuning provides the basic harmonic framework. If we think of any particular tuning as the tonic, or I, of the key, then the barre on fret 5 is IV, and the barre on fret 7 is V. Many of her chord changes are done using barre chords and the only guitar song I can think of that actually modulates to another key is Harry's House/Centerpiece, but I don't think she did this modulation on her guitar. All of her guitar songs are in one basic key and the chord changes (between I,ii,iii,IV,V,vi,vii and their variations) could be worked out. Of course, what makes her chords sound more beautiful is that most of them *are* variations of I,ii,iii,IV,V,vi,vii - which is made possible by the various tunings. I think her piano music chord progressions are, harmonically speaking, much stranger (more unusual) than the guitar stuff. I think Paprika Plains, Judgement Of The Moon And Stars, and Impossible Dreamer are particularly interesting. Marian Vienna NP: Emmanuel - Jonatha Brooke ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 03:33:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: On Inventing chords Well put Marian. A couple more thoughts: to me, it seems joni was thinking like a piano player even when she was composing for guitar - the tunings allowed her to explore and create progressions that interested her without expert left-hand technique. Hmm, how to explain this... I play guitar a little bit better than I play piano (I don't play either particularly well), but with limited technique a whole world of chords and variations are available to me for composing on piano - I can't say the same for guitar. I imagine there are others who think more like guitar players and who find exploring and creating in that arena much easier than on piano. I think Joni made her guitar a piano. Dropping the bottom string down and using tunings to allow her to easily create suspended chords or play a D in the bassline of a C chord, etc. Technique-wise, I think Joni is a genius with her *right* hand. Particularly later on in her career. Marian, you could speak to this way better than I can, but her right-hand technique is so rhythmically complex in the later years - I can't even figure out what it is she is doing exactly in some instances. Marian Russell wrote: It is possible to do all of her chord changes from standard tuning and make them sound like her chords (I personally witnessed an Austrian jazz guitarist who did this), but you have to be very very good to be able to do this... You know who else can? JMDL's own Les Ross. Very impressive! Jenny Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 05:09:39 -0700 From: "Bill Bubb" Subject: Oh Boy -- Please Spank Me Hard It appears I ruffled someone's feathers on the list by asking a simple question from a truly novice guitar picker like myself, something that had to do with where I could get information about Joni's tunings. The list -- this list is actually about learning. It's not just for posting web sites for everyone to see and jokes from tame to off-color. I read the bylaws or list rules at the web site before plugging in and I felt pretty darn comfortable actually for subscribing because.........................I felt I could actually ask some questions and get some direction and answers without people spanking me so hard for asking said such question. Thanks to those that provided me the answers that you have. I am going to unsubscribe to this list this morning and just rely on information that I can get from the internet and from Joni's web page. I don't know why it is but it never fails that when there is a discussion list for one subject or the other, there are people lurking that just want to kick someone, spank them and put someone down for asking questions. I subscribed to this list before Christmas and got turned off by some of the rude answers and snide comments I got when asking some questions or making a comment or two which I didn't feel was offensive. I plugged in last night with a question and had hopes that with asking a sincere question and being as sensitive to everyone that does get upset at someone that is the slightest bit not sensitive to all of their special needs. There's a mean-spirited virus on this list by several people and it's needs to be zapped. I had hopes of learning some good guitar information here and not get emails from some people trashing my questions. Thanks for that good ass-spanking you gave me. Never never going to resubsribe to another email discussion list on any subject as long as I live on this planet. Color me gone. Bill :^( ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 07:42:23 -0600 From: "kerry" Subject: Re: January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! Happy Birthday, Claudia! One of my favorite memories of Jonifest was listening to Alison and Bob's version of "You Can Close Your Eyes" with you sitting next to me softly humming the harmony. It doesn't get better than that! Hope your birthday was great! Kerry _________________________________ "Dreams, Amelia, dreams and false alarms" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:20 +0000 (GMT Standard Time) From: steph@cix.co.uk (Anita Tedder) Subject: Re: On Inventing chords and Joni's voice I have been most interested in all the posts about Joni's tunings and her voice. It always reminds me of the first time I heard her which was in '68 when my brother told me about Joni having seen her play in London and then he bought me STAS. I wasn't very keen on 'pop' music at that time but loved the music of Debussy. When I heard Joni it just was so like Debussy to my ears. I can never fully explain to people these days about how unique her sound was - but of course it was the tunings and her incredible use of voice and melody. With Debussy being an impressionist, I could fully understand and appreciate Joni's 'Painting with words and music' because that's what she's always done in my book, anyway. The songs have always been like paintings - as Debussy's music is,too. One of my all time favourite songs is 'Dawntreader'and hearing it on Tlog evoked a lot in me - - the young me alternating between my Debussy and Joni albums. The Tlog arrangement seemed to encapsulate both, for me. Love Anita PS I love my Joni Fest 2003 Song and Celebration mug. I'm going to check out if it has any similar power to the 2002 one. Whatever,it makes a might fine cuppa. PPS I now have a fab Takamine guitar with a built in tuner so you can take the volume off and chat away and tune by eye. It's so much easier - that is if the strings don't break! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:15:17 -0500 From: "Marian Russell" Subject: Re: On Inventing chords Nice to hear from you, Jenny! On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 03:33:30 -0800 (PST) Jenny Goodspeed wrote: <> I agree with your first statement - the songs from STAS through FTR have particularly beautiful picking patterns and there is something definitely "genius" about them. The melodies, too, are incredibly beautiful. Maybe it's because I don't much like the right-hand rhythmic stuff of her later career that it doesn't seem so much genius-like as kind of eccentric (if not lazy) guitar playing. It's certainly unique to her and I'm not able to figure it out either (I can approximate it), but then I don't really want to learn how to play like that. I find her later guitar playing weird and kind of irritating if I pay close attention to its detail. The stuff on the albums usually sounds good - I think it helps that there are other instruments to fill in where the rhythmic playing cuts out the string tones or over-emphasizes them. What I have found irritating has been mostly in some of the live later stuff (except for that part in Sunny Sunday where there's just the muted strings and she's does that little rhythmic bit (I don't much like that song anyway, though - only one of a handful of her songs that I can say that about!)). In the irritating (to me) stuff, sometimes strings tones are ! emphasized repeatedly and IMO detract from the beauty of the songs. I prefer the early, intricate guitar playing. I think it took a lot more care and talent and ingenuity to play like that than what developed later on. But then, she moved into playing with other musicians - into playing with a band - and that kind of solo guitar playing - the intricate, pretty stuff - would have been drowned by the drums and other instruments and was therefore no longer appropriate. So what happened made sense, and worked. And of course, I love all those songs, especially the songs from C&S, HOSL, Hejira, & DJRD, but also from WTRF, NRH & TI - I just think the guitar playing on the early albums is more to be admired. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:33:10 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Jamie=20Zubairi?= Subject: Songs I would like Britney to cover 1) Ray's Dad's Cadillac 2)Talk To Me (I just want to hear her say ' 'Til I pissed a tequila anaconda the full length of the parking lot' 3) Sire Of Sorrow ok, so I'm chuckling to myself here... Much Joni Jamie Zoob ________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:47:43 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: On inventing chords (for AOL users) Wally says: your point is SO valid, les. it almost seems as if her piano were trying to catch up on her guitar. she does use a couple of interesting tensions on LOTC but the real piano explosion happens on blue (album) and a lot more on FTR. her guitar chord progressions were already very interesting by then. wally ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:13:11 -0600 From: Steve Polifka Subject: RE: On inventing chords Well, I remember listening to the original versions of Little Green and some of her early songs and there are some beautiful (yet strange) chord structures happening. 'The Arrangement' is not conventional 'songwriting'. Move on to For the Roses and her piano playing gets more intese and intriguing. Court and Spark is also a song where the chords bounce to the unexpected. Joni's songs are some of the hardest to play (or memorize) because of that very reason. Everyone (okay, most band musicians) is used to 1, 4,5 chord pattern; then you get to JM. Court and Spark seems to change key and back- plus so does the Same Situation. Add in all her 11th and 9th and suspended seconds and forth chords- and then add 7ths, 9ths, and 11ths and even 13ths on top of those in many of her piano songs- and I've played most of them. Whew! She taught me to play! Another song (that I've worked up for Jonifest) is Impossible Dreamer. Another Joni chord classic. My hands want to follow usual paths of pop music, and with Joni I have to really focus initially to get it. I didn't loose interest in Joni after Mingus. The Mingus lp itself was not as accessible as her early work. (except for TWTLIL. That is one of the most haunting songs I have ever heard.) But I did appreciate her moving into the pop-ular realm with WTRF. Yes I do, I LOVE that album. Love it love it! Joni could express joy and do it well. DED I had the personal comment that she was a bit late with coming into the 80's sound, but really enjoyed her social commentary. Why she apologized for it I'll never know. She just commented on what she was seeing. Now CMIAR is hit or miss. It starts out strong and fizzles miserably. (Then there is TBOBW. It totally rocks!!!) Now that I've rambled (lol) you can keep on bantering about Joni. I think she just played what she liked- she followed her heart. Who cares if she was technically ignorant or a musical savant... Steve At 10:22 PM 1/13/2004 -0700, Les Irvin wrote: >David Lahm writes: > > It is difficult to assign accurately a level of significance to > > the fact she was ignorant of coventional terminology. > > Certain relationships may (MAY!) have stayed in her memory > > or taste buds filed under who-knows?-what label. I myself would > > doubt that every time she started the process that ended up > > as "writing a song" her mind was a complete tabula rasa. > >Agree totally. I just think that the 'spices' (ie... odd chords) that >became a trademark of her music were, in large part, enabled by the open >tunings on the guitar. > >I'd be interested in your opinion David. Take the Ladies of the Canyon >album. Do you hear the same harmonic complexities on the piano songs as you >do on the guitar songs? To me, piano songs like Willy and Rainy Night House >are pretty standard harmonically; majors, minors, passing tones. The >harmonic complexities in those songs come from her voice, not from the >piano. > >Compare that with guitar songs like Conversation or The Priest. More >complex harmonically? Because of the open tunings? > >I think she heard a sound in her head that she could sing (of course) and >that the open tunings of the guitar allowed her... but maybe at this point >she couldn't quite find them on piano yet. > >Les, rushing in where angels fear to tread with all these REAL musicians on >the list... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:28:03 +0000 From: "Sherelle Smith" Subject: Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup You are so welcome! Sometimes I get so overwhelmed thinking about Joni's talent's as both a singer, writer and artist. It's mind-boggling! I would be content if Joni decided to just revel in her achievments and be an icon. I am so proud of her!!! Love, Sherelle >From: Michael Paz >To: Sherelle Smith , Joni Digest >Subject: Re: The power of that "Back to the Garden" Jonifest cup >Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 21:10:19 -0600 > >This post made me smile a mile wide. Thanks. > >Paz > > > > I was washing out my 2002 Jonifest coffee cup at work this morning and >as I > > looked at it, I had an overwhelming sense of pride about it. I was >thrilled > > it sat in a place where coworkers could walk by and see that I am indeed >a > > Jonilista! All of a sudden, I had to hear all things Joni! I ran back to >my > > desk and immediately pulled up my Real One player where my Joni is >stored > > and immediately clicked on strains of the CD Turbulent Indigo. Now the >music > > has flowed to Court and Spark and has settled on "The Same Situation". >Oh > > the power of that cup!!! the president and vice president of my >organization > > just walked by and was I deterred? No! A thousand times no! The cup >makes me > > shameless!!! Willl the annoying speaker-car of Lyndon LaRoche playing >the > > "Hallelujuah Chorus" passing by our building deter me? No! I will just >turn > > up the volume! "Car On the Hill" will prevail!!! Such is life in >downtown > > DC! > > > > Love, Sherelle > > NP-"Down to You" > > > _________________________________________________________________ Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software  optimizes dial-up to the max! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:39:27 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Songs I would like Britney to cover paprika plains (hip-hop choreography during the instrumental part) wally > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de Jamie > Zubairi > Enviado el: Miircoles, 14 de Enero de 2004 10:33 a.m. > Para: Joni JMDL > Asunto: Songs I would like Britney to cover > > > 1) Ray's Dad's Cadillac > 2)Talk To Me (I just want to hear her say ' 'Til I > pissed a tequila anaconda the full length of the > parking lot' > 3) Sire Of Sorrow > > > > > ok, so I'm chuckling to myself here... > > > > Much Joni > > > Jamie Zoob > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" > your friends today! Download Messenger Now > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:45:04 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: Amateur art Totally cool Bob, I'd like to have a poster of this. Thanks for sending it! db >>> 1/13/2004 3:12:46 PM >>> Hadn't seen this one before & thought it was pretty neat! http://www.kirstio.com/joni_mitchell2.htm This message has been scanned by the E250. Warning! This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify me by telephone (numbers above) and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. Thank you. <<<>>> This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 09:54:55 -0600 From: "Donna Binkley" Subject: Re: January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! Happy Birthday to one of the lovliest songbirds of the JMDL!! Hope your day was wonderful. love donna >>> "Scott and Jody" 1/13/2004 6:55:59 PM >>> I sent the International *NO sign* for Mercury in Retrograde to BF. He must not have received it yet, hence the communication breakdown on this day! If I may, I would be honored to wish a very gifted and wonderful woman A Very Happy Birthday lovely, sweetbird Claudia SanSouice!!!!!! You are in our thoughts today and everyday, much love, jody and scott NP-Claud and John-"If My Eyes Were Blind" This message has been scanned by the E250. Warning! This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify me by telephone (numbers above) and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. Thank you. <<<>>> This message has been scanned by the E250. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 08:15:24 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: On Inventing chords likewise marian! i really appreciate your take on joni's right-hand style - especially since you have spent so much time learning and doing tab for her songs (thank you!). i think i equate innovation with genius - and her idiosyncratic rhythm in later years is so distinct and unusual that I am impressed by it, though, as you also mentioned, it is not always my favorite sound. i had not thought of it as laziness. but yes, I think her priorities definitely shifted. she left travis-style picking far far behind her after FTR. jenny Marian Russell wrote: Nice to hear from you, Jenny! On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 03:33:30 -0800 (PST) Jenny Goodspeed wrote: <> I agree with your first statement - the songs from STAS through FTR have particularly beautiful picking patterns and there is something definitely "genius" about them. The melodies, too, are incredibly beautiful. Maybe it's because I don't much like the right-hand rhythmic stuff of her later career that it doesn't seem so much genius-like as kind of eccentric (if not lazy) guitar playing. It's certainly unique to her and I'm not able to figure it out either (I can approximate it), but then I don't really want to learn how to play like that. I find her later guitar playing weird and kind of irritating if I pay close attention to its detail. The stuff on the albums usually sounds good - I think it helps that there are other instruments to fill in where the rhythmic playing cuts out the string tones or over-emphasizes them. What I have found irritating has been mostly in some of the live later stuff (except for that part in Sunny Sunday where there's just the muted strings and she's does that little rhythmic bit (I don't much like that song anyway, though - only one of a handful of her songs that I can say that about!)). In the irritating (to me) stuff, sometimes strings tones are ! emphasized repeatedly and IMO detract from the beauty of the songs. I prefer the early, intricate guitar playing. I think it took a lot more care and talent and ingenuity to play like that than what developed later on. But then, she moved into playing with other musicians - into playing with a band - and that kind of solo guitar playing - the intricate, pretty stuff - would have been drowned by the drums and other instruments and was therefore no longer appropriate. So what happened made sense, and worked. And of course, I love all those songs, especially the songs from C&S, HOSL, Hejira, & DJRD, but also from WTRF, NRH & TI - I just think the guitar playing on the early albums is more to be admired. Marian Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:15:52 EST From: Dflahm@aol.com Subject: Re: On inventing chords If we could literally examine LOTC, Les...give me a little space to listen. I'll make the time asap and get back to you. DL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:35:34 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: On inventing chords david, could please post to the list at large when you get back on this subject? i'm very interested. wally > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-joni@jmdl.com [mailto:owner-joni@jmdl.com]En nombre de > Dflahm@aol.com > Enviado el: Miercoles, 14 de Enero de 2004 01:16 p.m. > Para: ljirvin@jmdl.com > CC: joni@smoe.org > Asunto: Re: On inventing chords > > > If we could literally examine LOTC, Les...give me a little space > to listen. > I'll make the time asap and get back to you. > > > > DL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:02:15 +0100 From: Emiliano Subject: Fw: Songs I would like Britney to cover (for AOL users) Wally says: paprika plains (hip-hop choreography during the instrumental part) wally ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:59:42 -0500 From: SCJoniGuy@aol.com Subject: A coupla freebies for ya... Upset because you've already fallen back into all those bad habits you swore you were going to break this year? Well, don't beat yourself up, kick back and enjoy a couple of Joni covers: http://www.gemmaschettino.com/music.htm (No need to thank me, just doin' my job...) Bob, prowling the web for Joni covers so you don't have to NP: Earth Wind & Fire, "All About Love(First Impressions)" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 11:09:11 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: Oh Boy -- Please Spank Me Hard A: Bye Bill B: Okay, what the funk are you talking about? You are so thin-skinned that a helpful reply sends you into fuck-you mode? You need therapy. Bill Bubb wrote: I don't know why it is but it never fails that when there is > a discussion list for one subject or the other, there are people > lurking that just want to kick someone, spank them and put > someone down for asking questions. > > I subscribed to this list before Christmas and got turned > off by some of the rude answers and snide comments I got when > asking some questions or making a comment or two which I didn't > feel was offensive. I plugged in last night with a question and > had hopes that with asking a sincere question and being as > sensitive to everyone that does get upset at someone that is the > slightest bit not sensitive to all of their special needs. > > There's a mean-spirited virus on this list by several people > and it's needs to be zapped. I had hopes of learning some good > guitar information here and not get emails from some people > trashing my questions. > > Thanks for that good ass-spanking you gave me. Never never > going to resubsribe to another email discussion list on any > subject as long as I live on this planet. > > Color me gone. Bill :^( ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:08:58 +0200 From: "ron" Subject: all them funny chards hi first off - thanks to everyone for all the info on the tunings. personally i would have to say that i think that her tunings are part of what draws me to her music. the sound she gets just takes her out of the realm of ordinary sound, and into the creative realm that sets her apart. the alternative tunings bring a whole new dimension to guitar. not just her - but other artists who use them as well - such as rory block and sonny landreth. and if she did it without the theoretical background, well, to me that says something incredible about her er and her instincts - that she ould rely on them to come up with sosmething so complex, that fits together so well. unless shes maybe just the monkey among the infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of guitars for an infinite number of years who just came up with the goods :-) ron np - stanley clark - stories to tell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:35:06 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: On Inventing chords Marian, it is always such a pleasure to hear from you & to read what you have to say about joni's music... I can't think of anyone who has earned the right to comment knowledgeably on this subject more than you...i can't imagine where we'd be without all you have contributed (so brilliantly & generously) to the guitar archives...i'd still be pathetically trying to fake joni songs with regular chords that never quite cut it... >It scares me to participate in this discussion. I had three years of music theory, but that was more than 20 years ago and there's a lot I don't remember.< Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 12:58:45 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Oh Boy Huh, did I miss something? I vaguely remember a post about guitar playing but don't recall any nasty replies about it... It seems to me people go out of their way to be helpful especially concerning joni's tunings... So I have to apologize for being clueless about what you are referring to bill...I think if you stick around you'll see what a friendly & helpful bunch of people are here for the most part... >It appears I ruffled someone's feathers on the list by asking a simple question from a truly novice guitar picker like myself, something that had to do with where I could get information about Joni's tunings.< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 13:01:50 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: Re: On Inventing chords Marian>I just think the guitar playing on the early albums is more to be admired.< Do you think this has anything to do with her switching from acoustic to electric guitar? Kate www.katebennett.com "bringing the melancholy world of twilight to life almost like magic" The All Music Guide ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:41:16 -0700 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: On Inventing chords Marian wrote: > I just think the guitar playing on the > early albums is more to be admired. And Kate responded: > Do you think this has anything to do with her switching from > acoustic to electric guitar? I'm not Marian, but I agree with what she wrote and I'll take a stab at this one. Pre-1972-ish, Joni was a solo artist. If you look at some of the old video and listen to the early albums, you'll hear that Joni wove her 'vision' with just her voice and guitar. Because of that, I think, she paid particular attention to her playing in an attempt to squeeze all of the music out of the guitar that she was technically able to get. When she started recording and performing with a band, her guitar was less of an issue. She could get more of the sound she wanted from the band and chose to do just that. Thus, the guitar became less of a focus as it was no longer the sole musical instrument. So, the less she played the guitar, the less time she took to work things out on the instrument and the less challenging her playing became. Although the term "lazy" might be a bit harsh, I do think her playing is remarkably more challenging and interesting in the early, solo years. Cactus Tree vs Taming the Tiger? No comparison! :-) Les, feeling chatty these days. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:01:58 EST From: Kardinel@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V2004 #22 I have been reading the list with some interest lately. About 3 years ago I subscribed to the list and I wrote something about Joni. I can't remember what but was promptly told I was "a starry eyed fan" or something like that. I was very hurt. I don't often write in but wish I could sometimes.I really care about Joni Mitchell and her work. There is an "in crowd" feeling.. I understand how that can come about but maybe the list needs to consider it. Now, about politics. I can't figure people out the older I get. I know a woman in a union and has a gay brother she is very close to but loves Bush. Says Clinton lied to the country but doesn't get Bush's lies. And a question-what is Joni up to these days? Anyone know? Kardinel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:02:41 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: On Inventing chords Marian Russell wrote: > I don't think Joni's guitar chord progressions themselves are so strange. The tuning provides the basic harmonic framework. If we think of any particular tuning as the tonic, or I, of the key, then the barre on fret 5 is IV, and the barre on fret 7 is V. Many of her chord changes are done using barre chords and the only guitar song I can think of that actually modulates to another key is Harry's House/Centerpiece, If you are talking about a song that modulates into a different key for the rest of the song (a common composer 'trick') that may be true. (Actually "Fiddle and the Drum" does this too) But I would say off the top of my head that a majority of her songs modulate out of the parent key at some point, and that is one of the things that makes them interesting. Even her earliest songs like "Urge For Going" did this. Hopefully I'm using the term 'modulate' properly. One more completely unrelated observation concerning Joni's tunings: they inspire/require improvisation. Imagine how you would approach piano if the notes were in different places each time you sat down. New tuning, new world, new song... Thanks for the great insights, Marian RR > but I don't think she did this modulation on her guitar. All of her guitar songs are in one basic key and the chord changes (between I,ii,iii,IV,V,vi,vii and their variations) could be worked out. Of course, what makes her chords sound more beautiful is that most of them *are* variations of I,ii,iii,IV,V,vi,vii - which is made possible by the various tunings. > > I think her piano music chord progressions are, harmonically speaking, much stranger (more unusual) than the guitar stuff. I think Paprika Plains, Judgement Of The Moon And Stars, and Impossible Dreamer are particularly interesting. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:12:40 -0800 From: "Lori Fye" Subject: oh God -- now with Joni content! Mary Mary, quite contrary! I'm gonna take the liberty of reposting this one from you, minus the N*JC tag, as it does indeed contain some Joni content and I think it's worth discussing. - Lori Date: 1/14/2004 15:31:16 -0600 From: To: , Subject: RE: oh God (njc) Hi, Buck! Mary here: unrepentant liberal, although I've done the very best I could to stay out of recent political discussions on-list, for reasons of my own. But, as more than half my family and my significant other are all card-carrying conservatives , I'll take this one head-on. You wrote: "We laugh, we cry, we celebrate, we grieve. And some of us also love, appreciate, and want more of, Joni Mitchell. In short, aside from our political beliefs, we 're pretty much JUST LIKE YOU. Liberal intolerance for viewpoints other than their own, and their habit of viewing "us" as fundamentally bad, or somehow flawed, baffles ME." You know, this sounds an awful lot like Shylock's speech in "Merchant of Venice"! And you're right, in pretty much everything you say here (I think you're overgeneralizing a bit with the "liberal intolerance for viewpoints other than their own," but that's certainly true of some liberals, just as its true of some conservatives). What I would suggest is that some would find it difficult to see how conservatives could appreciate Joni Mitchell not because they think conservatives are intrinsically evil or misguided, but because that first group of folks sees Joni's own politics and worldview, from her actions and interviews and music and art, as tilting more liberal than conservative. And I think there's some real support for that view. But Joni has always been relentlessly uncategorizable: remember her somewhat controversial comment way back when that she was "not a feminist," even though I'd be hard-pressed to think of an artist, male or female, who more strongly exemplified "feminist" principles in her control of her art and her career? In short, Joni belongs to all. However, I think the above is what the person posting might have meant, not what you took him to mean. Of course, all this is only "guesses at most" on my part. And welcome aboard! Wait. You were in the Air Force, not the Navy. ;-) Take good care, Mary. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:21:43 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: RE: On Inventing chords i am liking the chatty les! ; ) I totally agree with you that her playing changed when she started playing with a band. And I think her earlier playing is more interesting too, but I don't think it's more challenging. To take your example: though musically more interesting than Taming the Tiger, Cactus Tree is much easier to play in my opinion - put your guitar in open G and travis pick using some pretty basic chord shapes (this is my impression listening to it - i haven't checked the tab, sorry if i haven't got it quite right). Her later strumming "technique" escapes me really. I can't duplicate it. The rhythm shifts so much. Now I'm not saying I *like* it more. I don't. I just find her earlier songs much easier to play. Jenny Les Irvin wrote: Marian wrote: > I just think the guitar playing on the > early albums is more to be admired. And Kate responded: > Do you think this has anything to do with her switching from > acoustic to electric guitar? I'm not Marian, but I agree with what she wrote and I'll take a stab at this one. Pre-1972-ish, Joni was a solo artist. If you look at some of the old video and listen to the early albums, you'll hear that Joni wove her 'vision' with just her voice and guitar. Because of that, I think, she paid particular attention to her playing in an attempt to squeeze all of the music out of the guitar that she was technically able to get. When she started recording and performing with a band, her guitar was less of an issue. She could get more of the sound she wanted from the band and chose to do just that. Thus, the guitar became less of a focus as it was no longer the sole musical instrument. So, the less she played the guitar, the less time she took to work things out on the instrument and the less challenging her playing became. Although the term "lazy" might be a bit harsh, I do think her playing is remarkably more challenging and interesting in the early, solo years. Cactus Tree vs Taming the Tiger? No comparison! :-) Les, feeling chatty these days. Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:20:25 -0000 From: "amelio747" Subject: Joni's guitar playing through the years! Ok I can NOT call myself a musician at all but I gotta' say for me Jenny hit the nail on the head when she said that Joni plays the guitar like a piano. I've always thought that! More so with all the stuff up to C&S. I think FTR has some of her finest guitar playing ever. Don't get me wrong I love a lot of the stuff after, especially C&S up to Hejira (in fact THOSL is my favourite album!) I think the late 70's stuff is equally progressive (more so in fact) but she didn't have to do so much herself with the guitar coz of the bands she played with. So in a way she did kind of get lazy and I think her later guitar playing was less intricate. However her rhythm was amazing (now thinking of DJRD and Mingus). In the 80's she hardly seemed to touch the guitar (btw I love DED!) but I still think her 90's style is interesting. It's kind of like a compromise joining everything together but of course with less surprises! I think a few folks have said a lot of this stuff but this is what I think anyways! :) * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:42:51 -0500 From: "Maggie McNally" Subject: RE: January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! OK, so it's the 14th. Claudia is off celebrating her special birthday with her special partner...and we all get to put on some kind of harmony in wishing Claudia happy belated birthday and many, many more. I raise my voice to join all the others in remembering times when we had the gift of her song. Thank you, Claudia. I look forward to many more songs down the road. love and hugs, Maggie and Alex -----Original Message----- From: magsnbrei [mailto:magsnbrei@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 9:31 PM To: Scott and Jody; Claudia SanSoucie; joni@smoe.org; NortheastJonifest@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: January 13th Birthday "Conversation"!! joining this sweet harmonic chorus .. happy birthday to our most beloved songbird, Claudy ;-) hugsnlove,magsnbrei xoxoxoxooxoxxo Scott and Jody wrote: I sent the International *NO sign* for Mercury in Retrograde to BF. He must not have received it yet, hence the communication breakdown on this day! If I may, I would be honored to wish a very gifted and wonderful woman A Very Happy Birthday lovely, sweetbird Claudia SanSouice!!!!!! You are in our thoughts today and everyday, much love, jody and scott NP-Claud and John-"If My Eyes Were Blind" ***** your absence has gone through me like thread through a needle everything i do is stitched with its colour. w.s.merwin Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:50:41 -0700 From: "Les Irvin" Subject: RE: On Inventing chords From: Jenny Goodspeed > Her later strumming "technique" escapes me really. I can't > duplicate it. The rhythm shifts so much. Now I'm not saying > I *like* it more. I don't. I just find her earlier songs > much easier to play. I think that post-1972 Joni evolved into another style of playing where she used a percussive tapping of the strings (ala John Martyn) that was not present in the early years (Martin Giles and Les Ross are both good at this). I agree that it's a challenge. But if you watch her play, she holds her right hand nearly straight up and down vertically as opposed to many fingerpickers who hold the right hand nearly horizontally. Seeing this for the first time really helped me "get" what she was doing. Still, I challenge you to have a go at Cactus Tree. She is doing some amazing syncopated stuff that sounds deceptively simple but is quite challenging. I tabbed that piece a while back, thinking it would be a breeze. I was mistaken. Give it a shot, guitarists! http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/cactustree-li-t.cfm Les ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 14:55:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: Re: Joni's guitar playing through the years! You may not call yourself a musician Stephen, but you described Joni's guitar career very aptly in a very short amount of place. Of course I think that because I happen to agree with your take on it - well except for that loving DED thing - still working on that. ; ) Jenny amelio747 wrote: Ok I can NOT call myself a musician at all but I gotta' say for me Jenny hit the nail on the head when she said that Joni plays the guitar like a piano. I've always thought that! More so with all the stuff up to C&S. I think FTR has some of her finest guitar playing ever. Don't get me wrong I love a lot of the stuff after, especially C&S up to Hejira (in fact THOSL is my favourite album!) I think the late 70's stuff is equally progressive (more so in fact) but she didn't have to do so much herself with the guitar coz of the bands she played with. So in a way she did kind of get lazy and I think her later guitar playing was less intricate. However her rhythm was amazing (now thinking of DJRD and Mingus). In the 80's she hardly seemed to touch the guitar (btw I love DED!) but I still think her 90's style is interesting. It's kind of like a compromise joining everything together but of course with less surprises! I think a few folks have said a lot of this stuff but this is what I think anyways! :) * * * * * * Stephen T "I get the urge for going But I never seem to go" Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:58:50 -0700 From: "Norman Pennington" Subject: Was: oh God, now with Joni Content! Thank you, Lori! Mary well-said: > What I would suggest is that some would find it difficult to see how conservatives could appreciate Joni Mitchell not because they think conservatives are intrinsically evil or misguided, but because that first group of folks sees Joni's own politics and worldview, from her actions and interviews and music and art, as tilting more liberal than conservative. And I think there's some real support for that view. But Joni has always been relentlessly uncategorizable: remember her somewhat controversial comment way back when that she was "not a feminist," even though I'd be hard-pressed to think of an artist, male or female, who more strongly exemplified "feminist" principles in her control of her art and her career? > > In short, Joni belongs to all. However, I think the above is what the person posting might have meant, not what you took him to mean. Of course, all this is only "guesses at most" on my part. > Agree whole-heartedly with your comments about Joni's worldview being more liberal than conservative and the support that POV has, world-wide. I and the type of folks I hung out with when I first heard Joni all had that "liberal" worldview. I really wonder if I would have listened to her had I not associated with the folks I did at that point in time. Looking back, I think I can safely state that the US was a VERY polarized society during the late '60s and early '70s. People like Joni, Neil Young, and Bob Dylan spoke to "us," not to "them." It's ironic that I'm now one of "them," but my love for Joni's art hasn't diminished a whit. Best regards and thanks for your thoughtful post, Buck ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 23:03:20 +0000 From: Chris Marshall Subject: Re: On Inventing chords On 14 Jan 2004, at 22:50, Les Irvin wrote: > Still, I challenge you to have a go at Cactus Tree. She is doing some > amazing syncopated stuff that sounds deceptively simple but is quite > challenging. I tabbed that piece a while back, thinking it would be a > breeze. I was mistaken. > > Give it a shot, guitarists! > http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/cactustree-li-t.cfm Geee, look at all the little numbers! Translation: not a chance in hell. Kudos for tabbing that little lot out though :) - --Chris Marshall (fingers too big, ergo bass guitar for me :) chrisATstryngs.com (AIM: Chr15Marshall) "If you're ever lost, I'll beat the world to finding you" Stryngs, "Bobblehats and Beer" Band website, with downloads, at http://www.stryngs.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:22:29 -0800 (PST) From: Jenny Goodspeed Subject: RE: On Inventing chords Les, I thought it was a breeze too! I spoke too soon. Isn't that funny, it sounds easier than it is. I hadn't realized she kept her thumb going almost the entire time and that she shifted her fingers so much from the bottom and top strings sets. I stand corrected. nice job on the tab! Jenny Les Irvin wrote: From: Jenny Goodspeed > Her later strumming "technique" escapes me really. I can't > duplicate it. The rhythm shifts so much. Now I'm not saying > I *like* it more. I don't. I just find her earlier songs > much easier to play. I think that post-1972 Joni evolved into another style of playing where she used a percussive tapping of the strings (ala John Martyn) that was not present in the early years (Martin Giles and Les Ross are both good at this). I agree that it's a challenge. But if you watch her play, she holds her right hand nearly straight up and down vertically as opposed to many fingerpickers who hold the right hand nearly horizontally. Seeing this for the first time really helped me "get" what she was doing. Still, I challenge you to have a go at Cactus Tree. She is doing some amazing syncopated stuff that sounds deceptively simple but is quite challenging. I tabbed that piece a while back, thinking it would be a breeze. I was mistaken. Give it a shot, guitarists! http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/cactustree-li-t.cfm Les Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:31:00 -0600 From: "mia ortlieb" Subject: re: On inventing chords <> Interesting thread. The guitar can do things the piano cannot, especially droning - when 2 or more identical notes are played simultaneously. This creates a different texture in the sound of the chord. Although, I guess you could retune your piano to play identical notes, but I'm no pianist, so what do I know. I'm not even a real musician with music theory background. Like Joni, I taught myself guitar, and it wasn't until I discovered open tunings that I could actually get some good sounds out of it. Standard tuning is too limited and awkward for me, too (and I've never had polio). Mia _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up  fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ------------------------------ End of onlyJMDL Digest V2004 #11 ******************************** ------- Post messages to the list by clicking here: mailto:joni@smoe.org Unsubscribe by clicking here: mailto:onlyjoni-digest-request@smoe.org?body=unsubscribe ------- Siquomb, isn't she? (http://www.siquomb.com/siquomb.cfm)